 Leather History of Fireside Chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe and I am the host and the co-producer of these chats with Mistress Joanne Gaddy. The Fireside Chats are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today on Zoom, I'm interviewing Brian, who is a rubber man from Taiwan. Brian's going to talk with us a little bit today about the kinky scene, the rubber scene in Taiwan so that we can understand a little bit about that. So welcome, Brian. Hello, yeah, thanks for inviting me. Happy to have you on here with us. So, where are you from in Taiwan? I'm from the capital city, so I'm from Taipei. Okay. Tell us a little bit about your growing up in Taipei and about your family, your world. Okay, I was born and raised in Taipei and I lived in Taipei until 26 and then I went to the UK for study. And then in the UK, I had my first experience in the BDSM scene. Yes, and then from 2002, I'm living and working in the Netherlands. Okay, yeah. Take us back to Taipei. How did you have any idea about the gay scene, the kinky scene, anything at all? No, I don't think I'm really aware of that because I think in Taipei, it was pretty hidden in the closet. I mean, the whole kinky scene at that time. And I think Taiwan starts to progress to a more democratic, more modern and more open society since the 90s. I see. Did you have any idea about homosexuality? So, my junior high school was in a boy-only school and then my senior high school is another boy-only school for three years. So, constantly we encounter all kinds of topic from like homosexual topic, but then the teacher doesn't even talk about sex that much. So, whenever there's an introduction in the textbook about gender or about different organs that different genders have, the teacher simply just skip that chapter. So then you know what kind of, how conservative that is for Taiwan at that time. So that's around the 80s, yeah. So, yeah, so I only went to the gay club when I'm 18. Tell me about that. Yeah, there's a gay club in Taipei, which was famous, but then now it has already closed. What was the name of it? So the name of it was Funky. Okay. Yeah, so we used to meet people there. So we chat with people on the internet and then of course we have a lot of chat bodies and then we would really just go there to hang out. How did you learn about it? Well, actually I learned a lot of things from the internet. So when I'm in university, it was the first time that I was on internet relate chat. So that was IRC. So then I met people from America, people from Australia and then also of course people from Taiwan. So then we had a chat about, yeah, we can go to the clubs or we can go meeting up or hit like, yeah, something like that. So then we went there and hang out. So tell me what were your impressions of the bar Funky when you first went there? It was quite interesting because most of the people are young. So like, you know, similar age. So I think most of the people are between 18 to 28, I think 28 or 30, I mean, from look. Yeah, and because I enjoy music and dancing, so that's what I did. And it was really nice, you know, just have a lot of, to have, to see a lot of interesting people and maybe cute boys and then sexy guys, yeah. So it was definitely very interesting, yeah. So tell me about your first gay experiences, not your first king, but your first gay experiences? Once there was a guy from the internet who was hosting a kind of like birthday party. So he invited around 20 people to his house and then we're just chatting and then meeting up and then celebrate eating cake and seeing happy birthday to him. So that was also interesting to really know, see similar people like me, like us. So that was definitely quite an experience. What did you learn about yourself in those situations? Yeah, I think you will see people that you find it interesting, but you don't really know who he is and then you ask around and then most of the time I was too shy to really just go to him and then introduce myself and then start to chat. But most of the time I was like, I'll wait for a couple of days and then if I see him in the chat rooms and then I will send a message that, so I think I saw you at the party and then start to chat a bit and then see what we'll bring from that. So you went to the UK, how was the gay scene where you were located and where were you actually in the UK? Well, I arrived there in the beginning of the summer. So during the summer I was in London. So I was going clubbing at J.Y. and having most of the time, most of the weekends. And then at that time, because every Saturday night when I left J.Y., it would be like three or four o'clock in the mornings, then I would just go to the internet cafe there. It's called Easy Everything. And then I'll just spend probably one pounds to spend two hours or three hours and then until there's the first bus, then I go back to the dorm, yeah. Did you, what did you learn about being gay in the UK? It is certainly more open than in Taiwan. That's what I experienced because I think in Taiwan, everyone is holding back and then is a little bit shy because the whole atmosphere at that time was still kind of like stepping from conservative to what's more open. And then people have an idea about the gender difference or gender or identification, but it is still in the very beginning phase because I think for Taiwan, it only starts with from 2000 then because there are several tragedies happened in the society, then really the society starts to rethink about the gender difference the gender issue more carefully. And then there are laws and regulations set up to protect more people for their difference in the sexual orientation. Then the Taiwanese society was kind of like, when boom like really grow in that sense to a very open society. So at year 2000, the UK is more open and because there's also the series that Queer as Falk that was the original British version was just shown on TV. So then I think the whole society is more is also starting to open to acceptance, to gay people. Tell us about your first exposure to kink. It was kind of stupid actually because I think I saw some picture from someone on one of the websites that has the tendency of BDSM and then I start chatting with this guy in Denmark. So we chat the whole summer, I think, almost every day. Okay. So then he was telling me a lot of, I don't know whether his experience or his fantasy or his just stories because eventually I didn't meet him in person. So whether there's really this guy that I cannot be sure but that was the hook that I start to look at pinky things. What did he tell you? He told me that he was a slave boy of a master and then he was showing me some pictures of him being the slave boy. And then he, of course, then he was also telling me his experience and then I was asking about it. And then so we had a really interesting conversation. Anything in there that got you very excited? Yeah, I think all of it. And then I start to try to do research and also adventures on. So eventually that I had my first bondage experience in 2001, I think. How did you find the right people for this? I can hook up with some people for sex that like one extent or something, like there's no problem for that. But then if it's for BDSM session, I think the most important thing is about trust. So they need to make me feel that I can trust them. And then they have to trust me as well because yeah, so I think to build up this kind of relationship that you really need to talk and then to really, even if you're seeing people for the first time, but then probably you have already talked for a lengthy of time beforehand, then you really take the initiative to really meet the person. When we were preparing for this interview, you told me that the rubber scene is actually very popular in Taiwan. It is getting popular. It's getting more popular, yes. Why do you think that's the case? I think because thanks to the internet and Twitter, Facebook, Recon and then there are more kinky people, there are more chance for kinky people to find each other. Do you know if there are any, for example, any fetish bars in Taiwan? Yes, yes, in Taiwan there is, well, at least I know one that is in Taipei, that is Commander D. I'm sorry, you're fading a little bit. Commander D. I think the owner has the aims to build up a safe space for kinky people. But of course, most of the guests are still in their casual dress most of the time, unless there's a party that requests dress code, then definitely you have to be in the right dress code to enter. You also mentioned that Lycra is very popular in Taiwan. Yes, yes. Tell us a bit about that. There's a very popular Spider-Man society. So a lot of Spider-Man Peter Parker all around Taiwan. So when they meet up, they will all wear the Spider-Man suit. So you see a dozen of Spider-Man gathering together. So especially during Pride Walk, then it will be quite interesting to see the Spider-Man's are everywhere. That's because there's a fetish about Zen Tai Lycra. So it's like the full suit, but in Lycra. Yes, so, and they also have parties and activities regularly, not during the pandemic, of course, but then before and hopefully after the pandemic that it will carry on. You're in talking a lot about the fetish scene in Taiwan. You mentioned private parties, you mentioned there's at least one club. Are there other locations, other situations for men or women who want to participate? I think the major problem, major issues for Taiwanese fetish scene now is like it's very difficult to find a good location to hold a party or a social gathering. For social gathering, it's easier because then you can always go to a bar, go to a club to meet up. But if you want to do certain kind of play, then the location is very difficult. Especially for rubber men, it's very difficult because usually when you put on rubber, then you use powder or you use the silicone to wear it. And most of the time there's a smell and then there's a residuals that, most of the case that like the hotels or the place, the place owner, the landlord doesn't want to deal with it. So eventually they don't want to rent these. And then, so that's why when I was in Chicago, when I was in MIR, that I see that MIR is using a community center that was really feeling, yeah, we should have that as well. But then, yeah, we don't have a gay community yet in Taipei. So most of the community centers are actually more to the neighborhoods. So unless you know some people really good, then otherwise it's very difficult to access that as well. But then that comes back to the situation that how people will see this party or how people will see these kinds of people. Because if you're just a passenger on the road, they will think, oh, you're just having, you're just someone with a dress code, you're going to a party, you're doing cosplay and then they're fine with it. But if you're holding a kind of party like next to your house or next to your neighborhood, then people are afraid of being recognized by their friends or familiar persons. Because they don't know what the reaction would be. They are afraid that if there are stigmas or witchhounds afterwards. So that's why it makes it more difficult. So that's the dilemma that Taiwan fetish society is facing. Do you feel the kinky community in Taiwan is as kinky as you have found in Europe? The kinkiness is the same, if not more. But of course there's difference. I think in Europe, in America, there are more kinky bars and kinky parties open for everyone to enjoy. So for example, there are a lot of big parties around Europe like Darklands, Folsom, and then also in the America, up your valley and then all those parties or festivals, street festivals, that you can just buy a ticket to enter to enjoy or just watch and then see whether you like it and then do your own research later and then find out whether you like it or not. But in Taiwan, these kinds of things is not openly done. So it's because that in Taiwan, a lot of people are still living with their family, if not with parents, but then with family or they are sharing an apartment with other friends. So that's why most, they aren't these kind of open parties, but it becomes more like a mouse to mouse activity. So if you know someone and then someone knows someone and then when they decide to have a home party or a bigger version of the home party, they would rent a certain kind of residence or maybe in a club or in a restaurant or in a motel. And then you got invited and then you will see a lot of people. So it's kind of like still not fully open to public. Yeah, I want to mention about how the development of the rubber society in Taiwan. So I think in 2016, I was approached by some rubber men in Taiwan. So then from 2017, that we had a small group of fetish people. Most of the time is included, is together like the rubber men are together with the leather men and also the Spiderman's group. So the Lycra guys that we would form a group to also participate in the pride walk. Wonderful. Yeah, so ever since 2017, so we have done it. Even last year, there's a small group in Taiwan that was doing it because I think last year, Taiwan was the only country, only major country that has still have pride going on. Okay. Because a lot of other countries are already in lockdown. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. How big is the pride parade usually? Before the pandemic, it was really huge. It's like the biggest in East Asia. Gay people from other cities, other Asian cities would fly into Taipei to enjoy that. So most of the time we are joking that, yeah, during that week, it's the international week. So you will see people from Tokyo, you will see people from Japan, from South Korea, from China, from Hong Kong, from Thailand, from Malaysia, from Singapore, all coming together into Taiwan. Because all these countries that I just mentioned are Asian neighborhood. Their society is not that open to gay, to homosexual. Right. They might have pride. Like in Tokyo, in Hong Kong, they do. In Bangkok as well, but then it's not as popular as in Taiwan because the society itself is not that open. And not to mention that even like in Singapore, I think that it is not even legal to hold these kind of activities. So that's why it makes the pride in Taipei more interesting and more popular among the Asians. You mentioned many different countries, but I don't recall you saying anything about mainland China. Is there a large team that comes from there to enjoy the parade? If they can get in, yes. But then that depends on their arrangement. Because I think the difficulties for mainland Chinese people to travel to Taiwan is that it is not open to everyone yet in mainland. And I think they need to be in the right city and then they need to make the applications. And if they pass, then they can. But I think the government, the Chinese government also set up a lot of restrictions. Not because of, okay, but because of Taiwan. Because I think at one point in 2019 that they were restricting the backpacking trip to Taiwan. So you can only travel to Taiwan within a group. So then if you're traveling with a group, then yeah, you cannot enjoy pride like that. Because I think if you're with a tour group in Taiwan, Taiwanese government requires that tour group to stick together to most of the time. But then that's more the restriction from the Chinese side, not from the Taiwanese side. So I see more Chinese people who is already like students in other Asian countries or they are working and living in other Asian countries or even in America or in Europe that they fly to Taiwan. Oh, I see. Because yeah, they have never experienced the pride activity that speaks Mandarin Chinese. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Where do you see the gay, kinky scene in Taiwan? For example, in five years? I hope that it will get bigger. But of course, there's also difficulties. And the problem for Taiwan is that the Taiwanese kinky scene is that because of these restriction to the home party style, so that means like more mouse to mouse activities. That you really need enthusiasm from people that especially from the host to hold these kind of activities and parties. So I was chatting with a friend who's regularly organizing something for Robert and Zhentai. And I was talking to him and he said, he's doing something for Robert and Zhentai activities. He was saying that he wanted to find volunteers that can carry on the activities. Yes. So that will be one challenge for Taiwan. Why do you think so? I think it's because of the lifestyle. I think of course it's also changing, but like when I was 30, a lot of people were expected to get married and then to raise a family. And then they would eventually leave the gay circle and then come back to the normal route. But maybe there's a change because there's also gay marriage. So I hope hopefully that's gonna change. And then we will see more people who's more active for these kinds of things. Because now it's more like that everyone was doing their own research. And then if they have done their research, then the second thing is that they have to take their initiative to experience adventure. And the third one is that they need certain kind of luck in that adventure. So they meet a good person that doesn't ruin their first kinky experience. Otherwise if their first time kinky experience was ruined, they would never come back to the kinky scene. Right. Yeah. Let's hope so. Yeah, I hope so. I believe that yeah, Taiwanese people should be able to do it. No. Well, Brian, I thank you very, very much for participating in an interview about Taiwan so that the kinky folk and anyone who sees this interview can appreciate our brothers and our sisters in Taiwan. Yes. We don't. And we do have a Facebook page for Taiwanese rubber men. So if you just search Taiwan rubber men, then you can find the group and then everyone's welcome to join. Wonderful. Yeah. So at least you know somebody when you're in Taiwan. So you don't end up like wanting to do something and then doesn't know where to go. Yeah. Brian, I thank you very, very much for participating. You're very welcome. Thank you for the chance as well.