 how are you by the way so good love you doing well doing well pleasure to be with you same yeah i'm like ridiculously excited for this one hold your pants on man we'll see what happens in the 90 minutes so i'm so yeah oh man cool so we're we're rolling and yeah let's just shoot the let's do it so so anna brown right yeah so anna brown is the name yeah but the identity isn't there yeah but there's a personality for sure there's a character just like there's a character there yeah cool so start unpacking this for us yeah yeah so there's only one this there's only there's only that which we want to call god and it's appearing as everything everything from the shittiest thing we can think of to the most glorious thing we can think of it is everything and yet simultaneously nothing meaning our mind or brains can't comprehend this mystery that is appearing as this voice in that voice but it is one dance it just seems to be spliced into you see but this is just one reflection so the dream of seeking the idea that i'm going to be on a really hard path with all my tools and work on myself really hard to cite or dissect myself like operation the game operation i will get closer to enlightenment to liberation to the godhead and all i can say is that's a fallacy it's a misconception this already do is the godhead appearing as a human or you could say this is being a human being this appearing as a human hence the human being you see but the dream is no i'm just a human i'm going to find a being this you won't never find it because it's not missing it's already appearing as you you yeah wonderful cool so how do you feel about it being a question mark with itself hmm well i would say oneness knows itself but it's it's an intuitive knowing it's an intuitive recognition so it's the elimination of doubt when there's no longer seeking so there's no doubt here there's there's a natural confidence but i don't know it's kind of like being a kid there's an innocence but children have a natural confidence to them because they're naturally being this right they're not convoluted by dogma and religion and uh cultures yet they're just they're just they're natural self right so if we can omit the word enlightenment and just use organic or authenticity or natural that really takes like a heavy load off all right because those are just stories all of those are just stories so mm-hmm so there is the apparent cessation of story that then seems to create greater um awakeness to said question mark like the story that one more say that one more time mm-hmm so like the cessation of story narrative sense of self and others yeah yeah seems to create greater awakeness to the mystery that one is that this is i'm not sure how to answer that but i i give what you're saying you could say the person who feels like they have free will and choice that is separate from the whole it seems to cover this it seems to shroud this and it things kind of like in spirituality i can elevate my consciousness i can raise my vibration and that's a misunderstanding that's that's not what we're speaking about here those are states states don't last we're speaking about something that is stateless but can appear as all states um what we're speaking about it knows itself it is itself what doesn't know itself is the one chasing its own tail and it's constantly in doubt that's why it likes to change belief systems like underwear right or hairdos because it hides behind beliefs it hides behind stories because it's afraid so to speak of this and there's nothing wrong with seeking there's nothing wrong with feeling like you're autonomous outside of the whole because that is the absolute if we're really hearing this we're saying that everything even the dream of seeking is liberation yeah yeah so paradox dammit yeah yeah love that i love the all of the different webs of beliefs and just hiding behind those it's the great game it seems like um yeah yeah because it or it can be not so great it really depends on the belief system right atlas yeah some belief systems aren't very uh jubilant yeah yeah so do you feel like the simultaneity of already being it and yet also the appearance of the kind of cessation of those belief systems do you feel like a simultaneity there and kind of pointing people to that well beliefs fall you don't no longer need a belief they can still arise old belief systems old memories old anything can seem to arise no one's super interested in them anymore because what we're speaking about is being life it doesn't need beliefs and i like to say if we look at the word belief in the english language it says be lie lies right in the middle now if you move that e to the end we have be life so we're talking about a perception shift going from personal to impersonal and and and there's no goal with this this isn't a teacher and i have no goal for you to shift because from here it's seen everything is the absolute and imperfect harmony it just won't make sense to what we call our minds or brains because the brain is kind of two hemispheres it can only operate in black and white right and wrong in comparison yeah it resonates a lot when we share it as a perceptual shift and so then there seems to be a lot of like questions that arise by it asking itself through others about how to obtain said perceptual shift right okay so first thing to know i didn't reach anything and i didn't attain anything so the one who was trying to reach trying to attain through effort dissolved or disappeared like fog on a sunny day because it wasn't real it was illusory okay and so we can't reach this how can we reach it when it's already appearing as breath it's appearing as this conversation now self-consciousness is the dream of humanity which is the ability to observe oneself dissociate detach micromanage look at oneself and then tinker and and try to manipulate and control that is illusory it's the absolute appearing as that there is no control there is absolutely no control so the idea that you you who is outside of the whole can bring itself closer to the whole through practice is imagination it's not real because there is only wholeness appearing as a you trying to get closer to it nice and that's hard when it's hard you know what i mean it it rings when it rings yeah yeah yeah this is where i feel like this is like this is really the crux of it i mean um how many years has it been now just honing like honing in on this and um like the ability to share it and like because there is that like sense of compassion there's that sense of loving kindness that like radiates because there is like so much sincerity truly coming from it to itself asking about what it is and yeah and so at this like crux we could say is yes the pointing of you're already it looking for itself and that's already wholeness like there is that like direct pointing of like you know the cessation of separation and whatnot locality story all those things and yet at the same time at that same crux point is the okay well although i have this direct pointing in access i also am so overwhelmed by my own habits of simulating a sense of self and others and separation and story and so then there is also like just simply just meditation or like relaxation of the stories and of the sense of self right so through breath through focus through concentration like that can also yield greater access to said crux point do you also feel similarly curious well i would well that would be us practicing into it that would be more like a therapy or a therapeutic process which there's nothing wrong with it that's very intelligent if one feels separate if one feels like they're in a prison cell it it makes sense to do those things but the seeker you are the prison cell until that scene it's always going to be decorating the prison cell with very beautiful things hence the spiritual path the religious path the therapeutic path the self-help path but there isn't a self to help and that's why this is not a popular message um you know what i mean because it's if there's no handouts there's no here's a mantra here's a meditation this is going to help you kind of thing it's a really hopeless message because what we're suggesting is even the neurosis even the habits are the absolute appearing as habits and neurosis but what i can share is what seemed to arise here is when this was heard by no one when this was seen by no one the neurotic stuff kind of started to slowly fall off the habits started to not appear as intensely for some it's just boom game over you know i mean like what are you even talking about didn't even miss a beat this here was stubborn so it seemed like things took a bit the neurotic stuff takes a bit to kind of fall off right but there's still going to be natural emotions all natural emotions arise anger frustration sadness gladness all of those things appear but now there's no longer an idea of oh i got angry i better go heal some shit or i better go meditate away the anger because that means i'm not there yet but all emotions all sensations are of the one source so nothing is denied everything is included obviously uh frustration feels different than gratitude but there's no longer someone going not you oh yeah come in gratitude not you sadness you know what i mean it's a everything is welcome to be naturally as it is yeah so crying may arise you know going punch in a tree i don't know to get to get angered all of that may arise but when we're on a spiritual path we're told hey if you're enlightened if you're there you won't ever get angry you're gonna love all your neighbors you know what i mean you'll never cuss you know you'll become a vegetarian whatever the fantasy is and then when we hear it's already appearing as everything including the emotions you're shoving into a box and labeling do not open you see because when we have these types of philosophies what we call negativity can seem to be inflamed and visit us more often than not because we're seeing it as an enemy like satan or an ego there isn't one there's only the absolute appearing is all and that's why many would say sages or masters if you would say have no enemy because because there isn't one there is no other and that includes emotions and thoughts it's all the absolute dancing and prancing mm-hmm nice yeah there's something so important about this um as is sort of called nowadays uncompromising let's say pointing um yeah it's it's it's really critical i feel um and and yet there's also something about it that feels um a little bit like um like it doesn't always meet uh the other self let's say where they're at sometimes no way yeah no way well it's because when we're coming to someone usually is for help this is speaking directly to the one that's awake confident alive and doesn't need help in the endeavors of enlightenment you may need help making cookies i use that example a lot i like sweets you may need help cleaning your house and and maybe someone will come and help you do that but when it's like i need help reaching what you're talking about ana i can only hold up a mirror and tap your nose you see yeah and mm-hmm so it's great so that so let's say that when you do that that then there's the the spectrum of responses let's say where you know totally right so you have like the director right oh my gosh of course fuck yeah i got it you know type thing and then there's the um i don't get it i'm still suffering and that's uh huh yeah so then do you keep tapping them on the do you keep doing that same process mirror nose tap or what yeah absolutely i don't do it though i don't do it so when there's no longer a person there's no longer a sense of separation it doesn't connect and relate in the level of sense of separation you see like oh let's do this or let's do that because this is a bird's eye of you seeing there is no chooser there is no doer what will be will be so to speak all of this is chaos appearing orderly there isn't a separate chooser but to what i'm speaking of everyone knows if you will you know this i know this that's why there's a resonance so there can be a deep like oh my god yes i know exactly what you're speaking about and then the beliefs may start to arise sure so what they have no meaning at all so you're right yes this can only abide in the reflection but that doesn't mean there's not compassion or empathy right so would you say that what comes through after the first tap on the nose with the mirror and then the not getting it is still the same tap on the nose with the mirror or is there an adjustment that organically occurs oh it's always organic because each character is different and only life knows what to say to life a mind has no idea what to say it's always like well let's i have i don't know fuck you know but life knows what to say to itself because it just does it's it's everything and nothing so of course it knows what to say but it's spontaneous and it's organic and it's off the cuff it's not precogged if you will that's what frightens the sense of separation it wants everything planned and precog so the eyes are dotted and then tease across but this is natural spontaneity and it's just yeah it's just like dancing or making love you know it's just and here we go this way but you know yeah i can't say what's coming next yeah so then you feel you feel would you say hollow or empty oh no it's a simultaneity so the fullness is empty and the emptiness is full or formlessness is form paradox it can't be got but i like to use the example of quantum physics the atom which is 99.99999% space and this is apparently made of atoms so i mean science is even starting to get close to that pointing you see that it that spaciousness or the chaos of potentiality appears as a particle appears as a particle we have to say this is an appearance like a dream at night so there's nothing behind this nothing in front of it it's not going anywhere it didn't come from anywhere because cause and effect isn't actually real it only seems to be and i have to say this is as mysterious to this as is there there's just no longer doubt from stories and dogma so there's just an innocence and this innocence speaks to the innocence that is all yeah yeah yeah so of course there's the simultaneity of empty fullness and and of course there's the the mystery with itself or whatever fill in the blank with itself dancing right so so that's that's become just so um yeah without a shadow of a doubt and the freedom let's say from that is which it of course always already is that but then but then the game that it plays where it apparently masks or veils itself from that and that at that like let's like it's nice continuing to reference it as some sort of like a crux point or like a source point or whatever you will however you if you will that whatever source point crux point of like freedom in a sense seemingly veiling itself to some sort of illusion of separation location sense of self whatnot limits limits basically limits right yeah yeah but limits still appear and a sense of location still arises so i'm not over here feeling like a blob of lsd or something no there's definitely a sense of body and location for some they can have the experience or like a glimpse of just awareness is everything if you will if we want to use that word but a sense of location comes back those types of things don't last right there's a sense of locale i'm not walking through walls you know like a ghost or something you see so we don't get rid of being human it's just human is finally accepted by no one you see the idea is of i'm just a human or i was born and i will die they all they all go this is already paradise pretending but going to your crux um there's not as you could say everything is the point a pointless point but we can look at it just as an x it's just one big x this is the x marks the spot always for the person they got the treasure map right and they're like oh my god where's the x where's the x man and it's on your forehead it's on your forehead and everywhere you know it's not funny though when you know you're looking forward kind of like when you have your glasses on your head and you're like holy crap yeah yeah yeah nothing changes nothing changes but you could say everything is transformed so um you know this this is in cohena before enlightenment chocolate carry water after enlightenment chocolate carry water roles arise the show goes on for no one so so if we play and i say that i don't get no one how how do you how does it share with itself at that crux so like i'm not in a crux and yeah it's not i'm not in a crux there's no crux to share how does another way say this how does freedom because it feels like the entire game is played where freedom liberates itself from its own illusions it seems like that and we hear that a lot too but what if there isn't even a game you see we can use we can go into that as soon as we start to go into like explaining this we're weaving a web of which we can get stuck in like a fly you know um what if there's not even a game you see what i'm saying by that because if there's a game there's a winner and a loser we're in the we're in the dream of duality there really isn't separation separation appears so if you mean like the show goes on yeah there's a show that goes on watching Netflix goes on making making dinner goes on folding laundry goes on apparently it's an appearance but there's no one up in the sense of like i'm going to get to enlightenment that's because it's it's it's just a story there is no such thing you could say there is only enlightenment nice so let's call that like simultaneity of game and no game because as soon as there is this conversation appearing a freedom liberating itself from illusion that's the creation of illusion or that's the creation of game let's say and there is no game being played because everything's already free and liberated as we've ever since referenced cool and yet there is also the appearance of the game when there's a seeker when there's a you there who feels like they're in control right but it's not real nothing is real and you can hear that both possible ways nothing is appearing to be real it doesn't make any logical sense only intuitive yeah because you see in the dream which there isn't one that's why no one wakes up because there's nobody asleep that's why it's so hard to wake up you're not asleep you see but in but in the dream of seeking it's something needs to change first but nothing will change that idea seems to dissolve and with that it seems either quickly or slowly the the neurosis of the character but i gotta say even old neurosis can seem to appear they just don't have the charge as they used to you see because most of the time those types of energies like ocd and anxiety come from the idea of time being real my past being real in my future being very real and important but that too is it yeah crap because this is perfection appearing it's just it will never make sense to the brain right perfection usually is very personal this is what perfection looks like for me right right but we're speaking about a perfection that's beyond mind perfection beyond the ideas of the world but appears as the world that's why you know Jesus in the world yet not others in other words formlessness is formed so it's kind of incognito you know because you could be eating a pretzel or slurping down a beer and no one's home but to an outsider it's like oh my god how low vibrational or whatever right how human how earthly and well there's no one home yeah because it's it's beyond all these ideas of what is right what is wrong what is good what is bad what is higher and lower all hierarchies blamed in the shitter you see but there's still the play of talking and words and all of these types of things that go on you know we're not just walking around like a mute or a statue you know how boring this uh two fun threads I feel to pull there um yeah let's pull on the most recent one so so the absolute dissolution of hierarchy and yet also the appearance of when something tragic happens that there is the going to the highest let's say doctor so highest what do you mean by the highest doctor like are you talking about a medical doctor yes yes oh okay yeah I mean yeah they're still like the looking for the best doctors or schools or I don't know yeah salon to go to yeah totally that's already what's happening though yes yes and so this is another fun place to like share is the yeah so where there's both like no hierarchy and appearing hierarchy like that sign feels is really important and then the other one that's very similar with that entanglement is the the nothing is real and yet also without a doubt it's also appearing yeah and this this is again that like entangled of yeah yeah like it's like a braid yeah like a dna like a double helix yeah you can't you can't separate them yeah nice yeah that's your stairway to heaven by foot yeah stairway to heaven it's just like that the braid the double it double helix it's it's in twine it can't be separated yeah you can try to that's the headache right this the trying to is oh i've got a mind i've got an ego i've got a soul i've got a past i've got a future actually we don't have anything damn i love uh i love the um the entangled share where um like the reference to a braid or the double helix and just how that is the stairway to heaven i i love that that just feels yeah that feels really good yeah it's you it's you it's like it looks like a fucking ladder anyways right i mean come on yeah i'm not funny so wonderful and that's why wonderfully nothing right yeah and absolutely everything so we're not denying form but yeah yeah wonderfully nothing absolutely everything yeah cool and that doesn't mean again that it's you you love everyone in the sense of like oh kumbaya let's all get together there's definitely preferences and resonances and all of that you know but again that's already what's appearing birds of a feather flock together or don't you know but now let's say what seems to not arise is the guilt because i could say when this character seemed to be in the spiritual community it was like gotta get along with everybody if i don't you know maybe there's something to heal or clear there may be some guilt or shame for the behaviors of the character finally the character is accepted for what it is which could be very tabooish you could be seen as an asshole i can't say but finally there's no guilt shame or insecurity for the character trades it's it's naturally celebrated but that doesn't mean everyone's gonna like you it doesn't mean you're gonna like everybody and i know these words sound very dualistic um but i mean look at nature um some plants can't grow next to each other because they'll literally choke each other out you know and some animals they you know it's all there's natural boundaries and harmonies and lions eat gazelles you know but they're not like oh my god my karma you know none of that arises because they don't have self-consciousness it's an immediacy it's a seamlessness it's a primordial intelligence you see um yeah self-consciousness is that ability to kind of hover and and pull back and fractal into two which no one's choosing to do that no one's choosing to do that it's kind of like a reflex like an allergic reaction it's just boundless energy appearing as that yeah interesting share that last sentence a little bit more oh dear boundless energy expressing is that otherwise it's all gone and one more and one more before that i feel like it was basically sharing that um freedom can appear to choose to have a sense of self in a body oh yes and it does not give a shit and i gotta because oneness does not care about seeing this so to speak it's not important this message is not like going door to door and oh my god come to the carnival you gotta hear this message it's going to change your life there's there's no life to change there can be a resonance and that resonance is what is already awake what is already alive what is already confident and knows this that's why i say hey y'all this is a reflection you know this it'd be arrogant for me to say that i know more than you i don't we're just two friends chatting about what we intuitively know you know and it just comes out of this character this instrument in in a certain way but another instrument or character it may sound a little different but it but it is truly all one breath many instruments mm-hmm some are kind of noisy though i don't listen at all yeah and i like yeah it's it's yeah already i was just gonna say i like how you just simply brought in a very organic example of certain plants not being able to grow next to each other or just the way that there is a prey and predator type of dynamic that happens in the natural biological expression of what we are what it is and so because of that it's very similar to why there is an apparent polarity between political parties or whatnot yes as long as there is form atlas there will have to be apparent polarities day and night black and white hot and cold predator and prey sinner and saint but the good news is is the sinner is the saint and the predator is the prey oh you see but when we're on a spiritual path of religious it's oh no no none of that evil stuff none of that sinner stuff none of that heathen stuff no darkness well you are the darkness as well as the light you're everything and as long as there is that not that not that we're living in that boxing ring i won this match oh you're gonna get your ass laid out the next match it's always going to be that kind of you know what i mean that that game of tug of war tug of war and tug of war can still appear and a boxing match you know when it's seen that by knowing that this is it it's just now that competitive mind of intense arrogance and this is what's going to fulfill me collapses and now maybe there's just boxing for the joy of it tug of war because i don't know that's fun falling on your face in the mud i don't know you know it's it's just a character trait mm-hmm oh yay we don't all have to wear white or like give up our crossfits or our you know our whatever it is yeah our pizza or beer yeah i like how you said that as long as there is form assumption let's say or belief of form there will also be the let's say ignorance of knowing that it is both appearing polarities and then that creates um feelings of suffering um well i wouldn't say that nothing creates anything so it's not that the polarities are wrong as long as there's an appearance of form there's going to be the balancing you know just that's just this how it appears if there's form there'll be the opposite and then seeing seeing through form is then what yields let's say um or appears to yield through an appearance of a process insight into formlessness which then makes it seen through that the form is i or it appearing as poles you could you could say that i mean in the story of anna it was this year it went impersonal you could say there was a collapse in realizing i was nothing i had nothing i owned nothing none of this was real um and that led to like a desert period which i felt kind of hopeless um all beliefs were kind of tempting me like Jesus in the desert right tempting and so all of these types of things were falling away felt completely hopeless because nothing was real that's the wisdom but the love part that joy part that bliss part is the recognition that you are everything you're the body and you're the appearance the appearance of mind of personality everything that's arising that's the love part until that is seen by no one it's kind of like oh you don't want anything to do with form you don't you don't you want to get away from it which is kind of a masculine energy of let's detach like self inquiry let's hover let's pull away from body let's pull away from world and we're talking about a complete collapse into body complete collapse into everything no one's trying to tinker with it anymore in that sense of i need to alter something to reach something called god or enlightenment but there can be let's say altering the diet starting to new or exercise regimen because there's a joy there there's a joy to move there's a joy to dance there's a joy to express and create not because i'm going to get closer to god through it because that's already what is it's just paradise playing for no reason for no point for no purpose just like kids on the jungle gym welcome to the jungle baby yeah i like how you talk about it um when you reference the like desert period of i am nothing and then the collapse of that with the i am everything and then the the cessation of needing to do something to be what one already is i feel like that's really powerful um and then there's also the like there's also like the story of what you uh the appearance of your story which is that for some some amount of again years that there was a sense of you being your identity and then shifting into what we just described right but i have to be clear it didn't lead to this because you could say since a very young age there was glimpses so there'd be dropping of identity when i was really little and then would come back drop come back so when and when it was dropped it was very obvious that this was heaven in disguise but then my beliefs and the you know the seeking would come back in and go oh my god what was that you know trying to find a spirituality or you know what i mean trying to investigate and get back to it not recognizing that that glimpse was this just appearing as a person trying to find itself um so yeah the opening and the closing seemed to arise here that doesn't have to rise for every character there is no poster child for this so that's why we can't look to any character and go oh well she you know she had a glimpse as a child i didn't have that so it's never going to happen or whatever nothing is happening and it's not going to happen to you this already is it how you're sitting how you're breathing how you're blinking is the manifestation of totality perfection yeah and thoughts still arise and emotions still arise yeah it's not about a silent mind that can arise too but you know already thoughts are the absolute thinking emotions are the absolute emotioning feeling you know yeah just like you don't choose the weather that's all we really can do so i feel this is another good way to play on this is that um you have you have kids is it just one two two six-year-old and a seven-month-old almost basically we'll say a month old did you say a six-year-old and a eight-month-old yeah cool cool um and so you've sort of had the opportunity to see um that like life having like the ability to like lose itself in its sense of identity or like that flickering in a sense on yeah yeah i saw that with my first daughter luna and when she was around the age of two uh i mean because it's just pure beingness it's just pure beingness you know and i'm going into a story now here but around the age of like two two and a half she would like there'd be moments where yeah like a flicker she would hold her head and she would go my mind my mind my mind's coming and i would just sit there and just be like oh like whoa you know like this is unusual and interesting and yeah then it would drop so yeah i could see that condition coming in and when i was raising luna you know there was still seeker energy here right so you know there's still some of that kind of all you know teaching going on with that because there was still a contraction here there's still a seeking here so yeah but there was nothing wrong with that of course just like there was nothing wrong with the hand me downs from my folks or communities and all of that it's just what seems to be happening or arising but yeah i totally witnessed that within um with luna yeah but no one here wants to change that you see yeah she has questions this naturally responds and answers you know and there is times where she reports to me mom i feel like nothing i don't feel like anything and i don't know if i belong in this world you know she'll say things like this sometimes you know and it's like yeah it's okay honey it's okay you know she's only six so we can't go into this kind of lingo here you know you got to use certain words but there's a natural response that comes out you know what i mean like to a question she has or something she shares it's just very natural and spontaneous like i said life knows what to say to itself and when to say it yeah cool so yeah it sounds like there hasn't been an um a solidity that has built up in luna yeah and then that what um that plays um into why there's um like the communication of something like i don't feel like any like i feel like i'm nothing or i feel like i'm i'm not anything and yeah it's like a freedom of not being a thing right but for her sometimes it's like because there is what we would call a sense there is a sense of self there right there's a sense of separation she'll come in and she'll be like this is kind of weird or i don't like the way it feels or you know stuff like that you know and we'll talk about it but yeah i mean just like within the apparent human here or the character right there can be those what we're calling glimpses or oscillations right and when the person comes back or something and maybe like what was that that was really weird you know or be really afraid or i can't say it depends on the character but i mean i can report that things are very odd i can't explain it yeah i mean my goodness of course it's odd it's it's hotter than yeah so um and um is was uh did i remember this right your eight month old is is maya is that right lila oh it's lila lila such close yeah lila the divine play baby that's right yeah yeah and so uh yeah lila and luna cool so there's some iteration there that's fun yeah cool so um interesting so so lila hasn't yet hit um they're both girls right right yes and um she hasn't yet hit um a the formation of any sense of identity right no like when mama leaves the room i don't exist i'm not there anymore and that's very scary for a baby because to them they don't have spacetime perception so when a ball rolls under something i leave the room where i take a toy away it's gone forever and that's why babies will cry where mommy go because like to them they're not there they're not there and then i come back right like the game peek-a-boo too if you ever played peek-a-boo the little one you're totally gone that's why when you come back from the hands it's like whoa and they start laughing hysterically because you like just came out of the ethers literally um so yeah it's just being this and it's just just like with any baby or just anyone there's all human functionings all natural functionings there's crying there's getting frustrated there's giggling there's farting there's puking eating all of that arises and that's that's that's natural yeah and that that does remain that does stay thank god because i left food so you know chocolate carry water it's just seen everything is in appearance and it's not on a train track and time is most definitely a construct not real so but it is mysterious how aging seems to appear evolution seems to appear progression seems to appear i mean i have to underline seems to just like in a dream at night yeah and so no no amount of calling this um a dream is also going to um make the dream in a sense stop as though it goes on even though you know it's a dream it knows itself as dream you could say it's like i mean like i said forgive the words because no word i say is going to encapsulate what we're speaking about we're just trying to paint a picture that can't be painted so it's like you know we're doing the best we can right um but you can say it's like a lucid dream the one knows this is a dream the one knows this isn't real but that doesn't mean there's not pain that doesn't mean there's not sensations that doesn't mean there's not challenges oh there totally is but for no one suffering can appear as well but there's not personal suffering and that's a big let's we're using the word wake up call but for one let's say that's been on a spiritual or religious path because it's like we got to get rid of the pain stuff we got to get rid of that lower stuff you know um but it's like no that's that's it too that's it too but i can just share what seems to stop arising is that that intense kind of neurotic energy of where am i going where i've i've been let's alter shift and change these things but you don't have dementia you know what you mean like yeah you don't have dementia that's what's funny is it comes to recognize there never needed to be an eye to do anything talking still goes on walking goes on holding the dishes goes on no one was ever doing it so ownership dissolves yeah it's amazing absolutely amazing i really can't explain but atlas this character here in atlas it's just like no different than like a tree or a sunflower or a park bench the park bench is naturally being itself the tree is naturally being itself the birds are naturally being itself you know and they kind of hum an energy yeah this is no different than the chair or the leaf or the bird this just seems to have the ability to talk and sometimes too much yeah yeah i like lucid dream i feel that's great it covers like you could say both it's a very entangled state and it's a it's a nice it's a nice way to describe the indescribable um do you do you feel a do you feel like what the indescribable is as much again like you've said as we can play on this which seems to be one of the most fun things that it can do is try and talk about itself because it's unable to but it's it's fun too um yeah do you do you feel like a paint brush is a is a fun way to describe it yeah you could say you're simultaneously the paint brush and the painter it's it's hard it's like anytime we use these types of things though it's like if there's a person listening they're gonna be like okay well i'm just the brush i don't do anything i don't i'm just being you know what i mean like kind of like a puppet or something's coming and you know what i mean that we kind of have that dualistic so yeah it's it's hard to explain you could say this is like improv it's all off the cuff it's all just spontaneously erupting like an orgasm or like a big bang it's just it has no intention it has no volition it has no destination it's trying to get to yeah in the sense of purpose like i'm here on a mission here on a purpose all of those things seem to arise what we're talking about is the end of the need for intention meaning and purpose and mission yeah yeah because obviously coming to the podcast today looks like it getting an intention to speak right but it just naturally and spontaneously arises versus like i'm holding an intention and this must happen this must occur you know yeah yeah so then we would say something like the the the painter that it is painted this podcast and it is also intentionless from a personal perspective well it didn't paint the podcast it's being painted as it arises yes just like dancing or making love like you don't know what's going to happen next nobody knows what's going to happen next but that's the thrill you could say and so so there's no creator that's what you're wondering there's no godhead outside of this there's nothing outside of this at all it's the whole ocean and drop yeah yes and yet that is painting this well it seems to be this isn't actually happening and it's not going anywhere yeah both so as it paints it dissolves as it paints it's erased for the person it's concrete it's real and my painting is important in going somewhere it dissolves as soon as the brush hits the paper it's like writing on water yes so so what is painted can be again dissolves like in water but can be what is dreamt it can be the choice of or the appearance of taking something and just just like breaking it like the device that you're watching this on right now or it can be the feeling of the the desire for this for it to know itself and to sort of uh if you will share that love with itself like here in this dream on this earth and so there there is the sort of contrast of those possibilities and so it can express itself as those possibilities and so there is a freedom there's just a freedom and so yeah so like freedom expressing itself as a destruction or freedom expressing itself as awakeness and like so at that point of at that point of desire is also at the crux i would rather say there isn't a crux at all there's there's cruxless there is no crux yeah it's crux looks yeah yeah there's yeah yeah i get what i get what you're coming from though yeah but this this can't be applied to anyone's life we don't have lives there isn't a you that's in control of anything there's no one that's in control of anything at all but yeah freedom appears as i'm in control i'm going to create this destiny for myself and when i get to that destiny i will be fulfilled and then you come to find out oh well that was great but what's next now what can i have being a person is having a bowl with the hole at the bottom so even if it's filled with gold it will come out at the bottom and then you need more we're talking about the end of need we're talking about the end of you but that doesn't mean life doesn't go on look outside you see it's all just happening by itself so yes if that character is driven to like want to i don't know join a marathon or something that may arise and there'll be training for that but what drops is the ownership what drops is oh my god well i'm going to show everybody and this is you know what i mean that kind of arrogant me versus them kind of thing collapses and that's why this is a shitty message because most beings are motivated by fear and lack of separation and when it's come to see there is no you there is no future there is no past a lot of motivation because it's rooted in let me prove myself let me validate myself can totally dwindle but what also can happen is is the exact opposite the roles the jobs the character had can actually become more vibrant exuberant because there's not insecurity there's not i need to get somewhere else yes you know what i mean maybe so yeah yeah yeah well i wouldn't say it's so important it's just it's just is what it is you know what i mean it's just but if your character's an asshole that doesn't mean an asshole goes away you still may appear to be an asshole there's just not guilt about being an asshole anymore so we don't all turn into mother Teresa that's that's what the seeker thinks you know if i hear this we're all going to be good boys and girls and that's not what we're saying at all and we're also saying this doesn't mean your life will become better there won't be a change because you're already not there doing anything but what can seem to stop arising is the neurotic energy of guilt and shame and insecurity of validation and proof you don't need to prove anything you are miraculously yourself already you are the absolute but that can like you're sharing seem to be shared you can't share this message because we're speaking to that which is already whole you can share recipe ideas share your your knowledge of like i don't know poodles or giraffes those types of things but you get what i'm trying to say here you can't break this off because it's already homeless you are everything and and no thing everywhere so it can't be shared that's why i say this is a reflection i'm just holding up a huge mirror speaking to the one that's already awake and knows this it's not going to know itself through investigation outlets i gotta be clear it already does know itself no time will bring you closer to knowing yourself because time is not real i'm speaking to timelessness which is already appearing as time and so it just it's heard when it's heard like a lightning bolt and i gotta say in the story of anna this this message was the closest thing to home and it resonated so deeply even though they were still seeking energy it was just hearing this was just was glorious yeah yeah nice yeah there is that resonance lightning bolt or intuition yeah yeah whatever you want to call it yeah yeah yeah where do you go yeah what do we do yeah yeah it uh it appears to um to continue and um well i mean we just yeah i mean questions seem to dissolve that's what i mean by that questions dissolve yeah yet yet it also appears to continue um it's um it's youtube channel or it's uh zoom meetings or whatever um sharing with itself and um no one's doing it this message isn't to help anybody though just to be clear yeah it's a celebration of what we all know yeah i wonder in the recording i see it that's that's cute yeah and it's right on your heart too which is super cute party yeah interesting so you you know it you know sharing that it is a birthday party it's like an ongoing celebration more than like helping itself wake up it's just more like a celebration of what it already is yeah celebrating that which you already are you know yeah we're not we're not told this we're told you're jojo you're susanne and this is what susanne and this is what jojo does and this is what you're going to do and you know and there's there's nothing wrong with that that's the absolute playing with itself but yeah within that system so to speak no one goes hey you know you're it this is home i can't i can't like i can't get over this like entanglement or the simultaneity of it it just seems to be just driving everything now it just like it's like and it just because it's just like it is the celebration it already is and yet it there's also it appeared to forget itself as a person that was separate and then it appeared to remember itself as not that and and there's just there's just uh the the way it dances is is that and i and it's indescribable but it's it's that superposition if you will um nothing and everything all this different it's just so yeah and and then there's just whatever there's the the release or the letting go total of the of that uh and like there's a huge release also around just like wanting to or like just um like for it to describe itself or for it that type of thing also um which i is so nice also because then it can be more like play and dance like kids um rather than a um like uh i don't i don't know i don't know um yeah i don't know either man nobody does know the dream is i know so yeah yeah i'm right with you i don't know either man it's funny how words appear this doesn't know yeah this didn't get anything but it is amazing how words appear it is yeah words pointing to the wordless yeah well the words are actually wordless appearing as words yeah yeah the arising of pointing to itself without or not or not pointing to itself right it's over there yeah yeah nice or there yeah and that's the entanglement that's the superposition that i'm talking about that's fucking insane in it it's so well that will seem to arise when there is like a self-fulfilling prophecy i get you it seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy so if there's an idea of it's over there it's like there's a guru here that goes come to me there's a teacher going come with me which is basically like a carrot being dangled in front of your face or if you don't like carrots maybe it's twinkie or donut and that's the person it's always following the trail of almost getting the treats because teachers are waving things in front of it going you're almost there if you do this if you do this you'll get it so let's let's see so it so it so this is the entanglement it always points to itself no matter what and yet and yet also and yet also it appears to not point to itself sometimes which is the illusion of separation or whatnot well no i would say all teachers teachers are it's all illusion therefore the dream teaching enlightenment teaching liberation it can't this can't be taught so i wouldn't say we're talking about the same thing this here is uncompromising and we're saying that no amount of effort can bring you to this so i would say teachers of non-duality i have a different stance and position this doesn't have any stance or position because i'm not here to help you reach something because there is no you to reach anything there's only everything appearing as a you trying to reach it fuck yeah you you were talking about teaching and i'm referencing and that's great that there's that just that clarity that that just came through because this is that that expression is was about teaching and there is of course resonance here for that for that expression totally and where this was coming from was more like it can't not point to itself because everything is it but then within that or as that also is super positioned where it can point to again like you said a carrot being outside of itself type thing and so then that's dream or that's illusion but yet also it's pointing to itself as illusion it's a mind fuck that that it is really confusing i would i don't i don't understand that at all to me that's super heady and very confusing it's very simple yeah yeah that's that that's confusing i felt like i felt like a maze it's it's very simple it's if there's a teacher saying follow me do these things that's what i brought in teaching because you're saying everything is pointing to this and i would have to disagree not everything is pointing to this because if someone's telling you to do something to get closer to this that's not pointing to this but it's still it appearing as that which is interesting well it's not real though it's and that's what's seen here is past never happened so when i share the story of anna it's real and unreal simultaneously like i'm recalling a dream to you so i i that's where i have to say nothing is real so in that dream experience of a seeker trying to get closer it's a dream it's not real so i can't say that that's comparable because the real we're speaking about is common to all and it's here now it simply as breath as what's looking without the ownership of personal yeah you see so that's that's where words can get interchanged i'm not saying you're right or wrong yeah i'm right or wrong that was really and that's most simple and i feel like it's most it's most simple for especially kids or for those that are actually seeking is that it is what is looking without identity or it is what is breathing without identity the no one that is that yeah yeah and it's it's not yeah it's quick it's quickest to just go that way uh again that way go that way or i know i get you yeah but but that that style of the pointing is so good because it just it sort of gets cuts through anything that the mind can put up as a deflection of it because it goes what you could say is a source of that and then it forces it's like a forcing function to be like no no no it's from there it's actually identity less uh it's and that that's like that's a like resonance or lightning or intuition yeah yeah yeah here we go yeah yeah yeah all right yeah you're you're a hoot you're a fucking hoot for sure thanks man your hoot is that less i think i hope the hoot who doesn't mean like she's cuckoo no no hoot hoot like hoot like you are the celebration you know what it that's oh thanks man i get i get you i get you you know so this is like oh she's a hoot like she's a whacker she's yeah which is okay too it is okay for sure freedom appearing as a character or like a person like really like freedom appearing for sure cool that too that too yeah for sure for sure but it there's like a lot that's like not blocked there and it oh i get what you're saying you know you know what i'm saying and then yeah i get you and then also it um it um yeah it's fun because of that and also um it it's cool because it pulls from many different places also like i you know the synthesis and distillation thing because you're not you're not on one specific way of you know because when we were talking about your kids you were talking about what scientists talk about with evolutionary psychology and the development of the brain and what not and so you're referencing things that um that other won't point to or things like that and so it's good i feel like that's a core part to that really the unblockage of freedom being able to because it can it can really just go from the place that's that's organically coming without being boxed into specific totally chameleon like chameleon like absolutely yeah yeah yeah chameleons perfect shape-shiftings perfect this yeah perfect weight of yeah so so i'm feeling i'm feeling a couple things um we'll wrap um yes okay cool i'm feeling like um i'm feeling like of course thanking you and thanking our audience thanking nobody yeah thank you everyone yeah we're it's a self-love party we're thinking ourselves wonderful absolutely even the haters oh and why hate yourself but uh yeah it does happen you know it's the drama oh lila the play and so we would love for you to check out um the links in the bio below so we have anna's youtube channels down there she's got tons of great content on the channel also shorts great shorts also love that concept so good um the website's there the patreon is there so you can support that way if this resonates lightning bolts you can support that way um like the video helps the algorithm um also subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet comment below with your thoughts on the episode would be fun to just get down there and play together in the community both of us can can jam down there with you um share the video also that's also powerful if you feel like it resonates share it with others you feel like it could resonate with and i feel um i feel like jamming together you know whenever it arises we'll just um we'll just message each other and and we'll potentially do another jam session just see what freedom how it wants to appear and play with itself because this was lit it was fun yeah it was fun man it was a fun dance very very beautiful so just shoot me an email and i don't know are you you're gonna shimmy off this recording can i ask you a few questions is that okay oh for show yeah do we okay i know you're just wanting should i end the recording and then ask the questions or do you want to oh no i was just gonna say because i wasn't sure if you were addressing your audience there which i think you were but i was gonna say if you if you want to send your copy of this i can upload it because yeah i can upload this to youtube too if you send me a copy of this is what i'm sure i will yeah i will okay yeah because that's also been a fun thing is like most recently the guests that have come on the show also have their own channels and whatnot and so then we're like we're co-uploading it and then their audience will come and check out what we're up to our audience will check out what you're up to type things so i will i'll send and you guys on the version that in it uploads you can check out the links in the bio below to things like no limit society or like what is i or high-level perception or our youtube channel just some of the things that we've authored and created so you can check out all that stuff sweet so i will send that to you and then yeah we'll see whenever the dance of course continues and whatnot let's wrap this by the way let's wrap this pause the recording and then you and i let's just stay in the zoom room for a minute okay okay yeah that's yeah that's cool okay cool bye everyone much love