 And for this little talk about history and this and what's happening in our streets as statues get toppled and people are questioning our past And i'm here with curt made it today to record and to present to you a little bit of a discussion on What is happening in our cities as statues and history according to many people is being basically revised Um, and we're here to talk about that today Robin thank you robin loy for being a technician on this broadcast And this will be recorded today and then broadcast later on channel 17 cc tv Okay, as I said, I'm here with curt mada who is an attorney and uh a historian aficionado And I am also neither one of us are What we would call scholars in that regard however We are amateur historians and both of us have taught history for many years. Okay, so curt What's going on? Do you think with all this news of statues being toppled and history being reconsidered? Okay, sandy good to see you again, uh, hopefully live next time, but yes, uh the Just to give people a little bit of context about the term statue toppling So what's you know, aside from the the big story of coronavirus, which we can't escape In our in our country these days over the world the other Parallel story that's developed About a month after the lockdowns were the protests through much of our country in response to the killing of a A black man by the minneapolis police Uh following an arrest and the excessive use of force the alleged excessive use of force Against this man. Uh, his name was george floyd The police officers plural in question Placed a uh a rather cruel chokehold and They also placed their knee on his neck To which mr. Floyd the deceased Responded with the statement that he couldn't breathe that I can't breathe And the use of force continued Uh by the officer Officers who were on the scene for again, what was deemed a as a nonviolent A legend crime. I think the crime was forgery That are counterfeiting or something. Yes, right, right, but it was it was not in response to an emergent matter which involved Really, you know an excessive use of force Yeah, nor were there victims of violence on the scene aside from them, you know, mr. Floyd the the killing was And i'm calling it that the killing was videotaped By a few different bystanders through, you know our new Technology that's developed over the years the use of you know video recording through cell phones Smartphones and it was recorded from a couple of different angles And there was really no news or information that came out that provided a counter narrative from the police Indicating that the use of force The the amount of the force that was applied to mr. Floyd was necessary to subdue mr. Floyd There the mr. Floyd was was not armed He again as sandy mentioned he the the The use of force was not in response to a violent crime that he committed and unfortunately This man died as a result and what happened around the country after this these videos went viral meaning became Spread all over the internet by people There was a great deal of anger not only in the african-american communities around the country, but uh this time around also many people of That are white as well as of other collars also joined in the outrage Against this excessive use of force against mr. Floyd and it uh this you know illustrated a pattern that's been going on Uh in our country for for many years And this pattern has been recently exposed through the use of Cell phones that have proliferated through our through our country in the world And are now being recorded where in the past there was always a counter narrative that was often Provided by law enforcement and now with the videotape rolling It's very difficult to provide a counter narrative when much of it's on film And it in some cases it contradicts What police officers Have said in some cases Uh that have justified the use of force that eventually led to to deaths in many cases of these unarmed mostly black men But in some cases black women and children also Also White white men too in this state. Yes in this state, but that is not being paid Uh attention to right now particularly I think you're right that it's the whole racial component that has caused such mass attention and then outrage Right and then the other part of it is uh often what's happened is uh when these cases When they have gone to trial against some of these police officers Uh the juries have exonerated them and they've been like oh And the police officers have often used this thin blue line theory to justify the uh the use of force In some of these cases and that this thin blue line is essentially the the The threshold between you know chaos in our society and law and order right and often these mostly men have been exonerated in these cases and that has resulted in protests And there's also been further introspection in addition to the protests specifically for mr. Floyd Is uh one of the targets have been statues some of them confederate Some of them not necessarily confederate even it's even extended to some of the founding fathers Of this country that have you know that were instrumental in the formation of the republic Uh as well as other people people of commerce people uh in the arts Who at the time when they were alive Held racist views uh expressed racist views Or did things that were that are deemed now as being racist and as a result What's happened as uh people have taken action against works of art as well as statues That represent most these mostly men but in some time some cases women That have been honored in public parks city squares and other parts of our country uh and What we're talking about today is whether or not these works of art and our statues Should all come down or not and sandy and I and you know And to some extent robin today will talk about that and whether or not that is the path that We should follow culturally speaking As well as in terms of you know honoring the If you want to use the term honoring or at least observing aspects of our country's history as well as its art Right. Well robin had a report for us, right robin Yeah, robin had a report about uh something that's local to vermonis right and I think that's important if Robin just wants to give us a little bit of context About what that's about and then tell us what's going on Right about the law school, right robin Yeah, um, so uh, I want to talk about and I think I can put this up on the screen perhaps If I can figure that out hold on a moment Share a screen Yeah, here we go Um And I'm talking about the mural by sam curson Who uh painted this mural can you see it? Yes, very beautiful. I hadn't seen it before. Thank you I'm I'm impressed robin that you were able to do that. I I couldn't do that Well, uh, yeah, um A few buttons to push um The mural was created by sam curson for the vermont law school in 1993 And uh, I went down there. I know sam and um, I thought this was You know a fascinating project a lot of research on it And what the title of it is the underground railroad vermont and the fugitive slave Now, uh, this panel that you're looking at is just half of it. It is the panel of the of slavery and and um You know african-american people in condition. Well, you can see on the far left of slavery now We'll see if we can see there's a close-up And um the the other half of it is of really vermont history and um Of which this one picture which is a little bit hard to read can Uh, let me get a close-up of that this is of uh white people helping slaves Through the underground railroad and you can see the um State house in the distance there And so they are on their way to canada, I think Yeah, and this is just one image there so And robin if I can just briefly interrupt one of the things that I'd like to uh, and it you know It'll help with the context of the conversation the picture that you have up right now Uh, the one thing that I'm seeing on the left. There's a I'm assuming a black woman wearing a blue dress On her knees and it appears as if she's praying uh, you know and I'll I just want to bring that people's attention Uh, and we'll talk about it in a moment. So yeah continue Please robin. Sorry that I interrupted. Yeah, okay. Um Now I'm now where am I uh, uh, are you seeing uh, because I I think we should go back to the original Wait, there we are aren't we? No. No, I'm seeing your computer screen with all of your applications Oh, okay. Stop stop share. Here we go. There we go. Okay Um Yeah, well, let me just read you some of the comments that have been made about this. Uh, it was protested, um by a few students at the at the uh, vermont law school and um And they were listened to and so the decision has been to uh Paint over it. It's It's not it's not a mural on panels that can be moved. It's painted there. So how will one Be able to move it that will be very difficult. I think sam is wondering about that Uh, but let me just read a few comments made from that. I I'm sure Sam asked uh, mike alowitz to make these uh to respond to these, um requests that the mural be taken down. Uh, mike alowitz is a, uh Eminent american muralist and his comment was That one one reason cited for taking it down the figures were painted in greens Apparently these custodians of propriety are Unaware of the great artists like mark shagal and pablo Picasso also painted green figure Should their work be destroyed as well Also cited the over exaggeration of figures Again, apparently the aspiring artists and school administrators are unaware that great african american muralists as stylistically Diverse as robert colescott romaine Bearden faith wring old and others distorted the human figure Authoritarian regimes often demand that art be realistic most famously demonstrated by the 1937 degenerate art exhibition organized by the nazi party Why such animosity? to modernist Or or or abstraction Because it encourages people to think critic critically so, uh, a number of people have spoken out in support of Of sam i have We're realizing that you know in a way we're going against the the trend i did get some serious pushback from friends saying You know People of color Are the ones that need to determine what is offensive and you white people are not the ones that Uh should be in the way of those determinations um, and Uh, you know my thought about it all is that there just needs to be more discussion That's the whole point of it use this as a learning experience use a mural, but you also Use the opposition to the mural now the problem is the school is closed Uh at the moment the vermont law school is not in session And uh and yet the owners have given i mean the uh administration have given sam person What was it 30 days or 60 days to figure out a way to move it and so there has not been a discussion Uh, I would like to point out to people and i'm not quite sure where you can find it, but I did find it earlier the video. I did which is Four minutes long where sam is looking at each panel and describing what it represents. I mean his style of art is a kind of coloristic Mexican style of a muralism But and so I do think it it needs explanation and I don't know whether that um film an explanation was available to the students or whether Um, they were able to walk through it with sam person and maybe understand it more. I just think more um more Communication needed to happen in this case. So I don't know really what's going to happen at the moment. Um Whether it will truly be taken down Sam is trying to get people um Together to complain and I have written a letter But that's how it stands now I think some of the things like in terms of the critiques Uh that uh some of the students of color had I I don't I I think there's a consensus that uh when the mural was put up That you know, his intention was not to Uh portray a racist point of view. I I'm pretty sure most people think that you know He had the best interests at heart when that mural was created the objections were to the number one the portrayal of the uh the african portion of the uh the uh the the mural as the the uh the individuals were portrayed largely, you know appearing in our current um what what our current idea would be of a savage Uh and and then moving on to the african american phase from you know moving from africa That uh some of the black characters were created with exaggerated Uh lips, uh, you know and other body Areas that were excessively, you know exaggerated In in in the spirit of sam's art Uh and then there was a the other critique was that there was a white savior Complex that was also being illustrated in the picture that you know and I pointed out that woman The black woman on her knees praying Essentially thanking the the the nice white people for saving them for from a From a a you know a future of destitution and slavery So I mean those were some of the critiques however, you know The question here is you know, uh, who are we to question, you know art? I mean the If everyone is allowed to have a point of view Uh about what offends them, you know, we talked a little bit about this when we tried to give this a shot last week You know our you know our travelers that happen to be jewish that go to egypt Can they demand the removal of the pyramids and the statues of ramsies? because these Uh many of these buildings and and artifacts were created by slavery many of which were jews at the time I mean as someone who is uh, you know whose family comes from india I don't really have a feeling of love when I see a big statue of winston churchill He wasn't a fan of he wouldn't have been a fan of me and I wasn't a fan of him. However, I don't know that his statue needs to come down In in squares in london because you know, i'm somehow bothered because there's another side to him also That was instrumental in prevailing in the in the war against the nazis during the second world war So, I mean, I think I can separate some of the ideas from some of the flaws that these people Have and I think that's really important. Otherwise, there's no end to you know Really destroying a lot of this art and in many cases statues if we're going to look at every single element of Uh, the these people's long in many cases long lives and critique them I think that robin though. I think there are actually two points And robin brought up one and what I think you're doing curtis being up another. I'm not they're connected But they're kind of separate one what robin said That is really disturbing to me is that what some people are arguing is that white people don't have any authority to judge art Um and uh or or or or create or create it and portray people, right, right? Which is ridiculous Well, it's really really dangerous. This is this is art. This isn't a political tract That this guy did and it's very beautiful. Should anybody have the right to paint it over I mean it seems A real travesty to the art of that man Um, regardless of what it is, would you for instance paint over Picasso because it shows people in various degrees Misalignment even heads here and legs here. That's also probably a deformation of the human body But would you paint it over would you paint over? Any artist that's his art. It just seems to me terrible. It seems to me a tragedy Well, I went to uh, I went to Rome about 20 years ago and I got a tour of the area of Rome called the forum Yeah, it was where uh, yeah amazing amazing place But you know, one of the things that the guides told us was once christianity became the original I mean the the uh the official religion of the state Of the roman empire in the in the 300s what they attempted to do was to either destroy or take apart any Uh element of pre christian religion right and that meant taking down buildings painting over frescoes that were created with you know with images of Minerva and jupiter And you know and I thought there was a real loss In the fact that that was a real and absolutely amazing place and many of the buildings were taken down Not because of age but because of the fact that they were considered defensive and You know and uh honoring polytheistic themes Which were offensive at the time when you know when christianity became the official religion of the roman empire But the second point so I think we have one point. Do you destroy Another person's art and I really find that Totally problematic, but there's another thing that robin also said that some of these students are arguing that white people cannot participate or judge art because This is all only black people can criticize art. Is that what? No, I mean, I think the other part of it Okay, go ahead robin who responded to my letter and said that you really have to Find out more what their problem is you need to talk to them. You can't just call it a travesty Which is what I did in the letter and You as a white person without Um understanding where they're coming from and you know, I can agree with that. I think that's exactly what needs to happen is a A a broader discussion and sandy. That's exactly what isn't happening these days So outraged about it that we can't come together and that we can't have a hearing down at remont law school or in south royalton and Different opinions can be expressed and understandings and so on It all happens, you know on the internet and it's You know, you don't get to conclusion to the conclusion of things I think you make a great point robin. I mean the conversation is a really important piece Rather than getting these, you know anonymous tweets on twitter and anonymous emails You know, I mean, I think, you know a community forum where people have a chance to Talk about Their points of view and be challenged in some cases You know about that is I think that's really important But rather than you know responding to a bunch of twitter comments and and taking down this man's painting Uh, who again there was a consensus even amongst the students of color that his intentions were honorable when he created that it was not to Create some kind of a racist, uh image You know At remont law school that that's actually a given they've stipulated to that but they just don't think that a 1990 or 1994 image is Is acceptable in 2020 and then the other part of it is partly with sandy and both you robin have mentioned that whether or not, you know white people have The right to quote unquote You know a big term that you hear these days is cultural appropriation have any right to represent A person of color You know, so I so so you can't you know, so you can't draw a person who's black unless the artist is black Okay, now Sam christen did enormous amount of research Into the history of the fugitive slave in vermont and uh, and he worked in consultation I think with a notable person of color At the time when the mural was put up who at the time and I think she's still around today Essentially gave her blessing Yeah, yeah So maybe Maybe a zoom call could happen where The various groups would at least speak together and explain Their thoughts that would be terrific. But that's been one of my real Complaints about the whole covet era is that live debates live discussions simply cannot happen And there's no reason why they couldn't happen if you properly socially distanced. I don't get it I don't get we had it. We had a pretty nice summer here in vermont. Yeah, we could have had this conversation outside You know, I don't and we could have filmed it or we could have the debate Robin you and I did many debates at frolinton college on many controversial subjects and they always ended up at least good naturedly And I I don't understand why so much of our public spaces are shut down and that you cannot have face-to-face Discussions about anything. So I'm going to continue the pressure about that city hall is shut down You know before before black lives matter even painted that Even on Main street in berlington There should have been I think a discussion about it because there were a lot of Not for me, but there were bad feelings that were left Because all of that was done behind closed doors I just I can't tell you how much I long to return to live debates and live Discussions, but I did want to mention the second point because I don't think that art should be censored. Honestly, that's the work of an artist That's like his he was expressing his soul and his research. I really hope they do not paint it over I don't that's like painting over an individual human being to me It's one thing if it had to be moved, but if it can't be moved would anybody really wanted it to be painted over It's very beautiful besides No, so I think the problem is that the artist lives in canada now. So if there was to be A a group meeting he would not be able to come down, but there could be a zoom meeting. So i'm going to That'd be great, but look at robin. That's another of course whole problem All of our borders are shut from to every to the whole world Americans can't go anywhere Because of coven so there's a lot of ways that we cannot even have society at this point at all But anyway, but the other point was that as curt and I have talked about In a way, there's a second point. There's the censorship of art and the appropriation of that artist's work Which I really find terribly terribly offensive because when you make a piece of art as you know, robin You've done a lot more of that than I have. It's like you're you're expressing your soul, aren't you? And so to erase it is like a race and robin Well, someone said to me that maybe your mother films that I made called black dawn which was About the people of hady rising up against the the french colonists that it portrays the people as sort of black sambos and The point is yeah And I think that was one of the criticisms regarding this mural too And but but in my case, I think I'm okay because those paintings were created by black Haitians, they were the artists of hady who that's that's the way they paint they um Right kind of a folkloric art and so that art that got used in the film It's a folkloric image of the history of hady So I think I'm safe I certainly hope so because it's a beautiful film and it's again It's your and I was also produced by during craft Yeah, and it's and it was a great first of all who knows anything about Haiti except you in this country Um, and I used to show that film in my classes Because no one knows a thing about Haiti and it's instructive which gets me to my second point You destroy murals like that. You destroy your film. I hope it doesn't happen and you are destroying history And if there's anything that's needed at this time, it's history I I can't imagine like these the the recent statue I mean all these confederate statues were torn down But there were statues that were not of the confederates that were torn down one of being one of being christopher columbus Why was that torn down? I mean, I guess I understand a little That maybe people shouldn't be put in the public square as if they're totally honorable people or that we should honor them But we could use them to teach history is what i'm talking about It's the truth that in the soviet union they when it became russia they moved many of these statues of Lenin and uh and marx to I guess to a certain garden where you can go there and watch and look at all these statues and I But they did not yeah probably got torn down. I mean, I think in the moment of of fury of of outrage that happened here in this country that Things happened and To my mind it was okay. It was in in the moment of passion, but this should not be the way in which Uh, we now proceed in terms of all all objects of art and yeah, especially Never right never But it's different if you have a statue of robert lee In the middle of a square where a fence, you know a huge minority of people like black people But I still why why isn't it just moved? But sandi? I don't I mean I I think look, you know, I think You know what you mentioned regarding the importance of the historical nature of these statues and the times when they were put up Uh, I think you can create a teaching moment also I'm certainly not against putting up a plaque You know next to the current you plaque that may have been there either from the 19 on the 1860s of the 1960s Regarding robert lee and put something up that is current and states, you know Well, what did mr. Lee's policies, you know in terms of what he was fighting for what did that really mean? You know, he was trying to help preserve a system that subjugated a you know a large portion of people and Uh, you know resulted in deaths rapes etc etc of of the subjugated class and they're you know Four bears at this point, you know are our bell citizens in this country So you can certainly provide plaques or you know what put a statue of someone that you like Next to the statue of robert lee put up a statue of you know, fred rick douglas or another great person like that Right, um, but use it as a teaching moment. Don't you know erase history You know, I I mean when we tried to do this program A week ago, I brought up the fact that how americans of all colors and stripes and political thoughts Were really deeply offended regardless of the fact that they don't follow that religion But by the taliban destroying these 3 000 year old statues, you know that were practically the size of the statue of liberty The statues themselves of the buddha when that part of the world was actually buddhist Uh, and by destroying, you know, these ancient relics and these artifacts, you know, I think Humanity is losing something in the process. Exactly. Exactly princess I don't understand what I mean I as I said, I can understand having certain of these statues in places of honor If that's what you want to call public squares But I don't understand why they would have to be destroyed or why christopher columbus had to be decapitated Um, I I was I actually personally was really horrified probably because I'm a historian Because you can find the opposite view for any of these people probably even including robert lee Um, you know, you can and it's a good thing to do A balanced kind of history lesson to people who are coming up I'm not certain that many of these statue toplers know anything about history Didn't they want to destroy a statue of uh, abraham lincoln wasn't it having his hand out to a slave who was in chain? and That statue had been paid for by emancipated slaves and by frederick douglas. What on earth are they doing? I'll bet you I had discussions with people who didn't in this country who don't know who frederick douglas is I mean, love they simply don't know u.s history and doing all this to the statues doesn't help I bet you I bet you that most people many people don't know what the confederacy was like any protest movement like any, uh situation where people gather and there's Occasional acts of violence You know, you're going to have a certain percentage of people that are out there a small percentage But there like in any Situation where they're enjoying the chaos I mean, I think in washington dc. They toppled the statue of mahad ma Gandhi They did they did right He was I don't know, but I don't think they knew Yeah, right So I mean, you know and in many cases. I think you know with with respect to some of the people whose statues have been toppled I'm sure there were people that were just out to stop to topple a statue and there was no political Aim that they were trying to reach Or achieve but it was for the sake of the chaos right I I'd like to bring up uh use of uh Use of words and how words change um the associate director of the peace and justice center had an article about the about the acronym bi poc So that is black indigenous and people of color now Prior to reading that article. I thought people of color covered black and indigenous people but no she Says and I Have to agree with her because she knows that Black people don't Necessarily feel included with under people of color or nor do indigenous people That which means that people of color refers I guess mainly to let Latinx people um So now that's why you see in papers nowadays be bi poc the question is I don't know how you pronounce that a verbally Beepok Yeah, I don't know a little more awkward to say but uh, that's that's the way it's going Well, but I don't get her authority. Where's her authority? I mean who says who says that she she has the right to change your names and who says He's not changing anything. She's commenting on on The trend that she's seen it in in the black and and uh people of color community and she as a woman of color Is uh tuned into that Oh, I don't know any is oh anyway, we'll get to that later. But In other words, there's a certain degree also political correctness that is stalking the country Which I don't really necessarily think is a great political development I think it ignores the fact by making everybody a victim by making everybody special We're ignoring the fact that that for instance that there's a great struggle really going on in this country between the rich and the poor Um and Bernie Sanders has pointed that out over and over not that he's any great saint or anything but but that the real thing that's going on in the country is that Many many people are desperately poor And that few people are fabulously rich In other words, we're ignoring the ways that in which we are united a lot against an oppressive system You can point out the singularities of black people or indigenous people or gay people or women But it ignores the fact that at this moment in history what is really going on is a I think is a class war between All of us on the bottom and the very few people on the top and that to me that to me is a Revolutionary struggle, which I'm not certain that Identity politics get you anywhere really. Yeah, I think the identity politics is really a convenient excessive focus on semantics without actually improving anyone's life. Right, right On a day-to-day basis, but I think that if you say that publicly you might get in a lot of trouble But here we are maybe maybe maybe easier for me to say than to you Why I'm a woman. Yeah, oh, that's true. Yeah an old woman. You talk about oppression Who of the entire population is more oppressed more marginalized than old women? Give me a break But nobody likes to remind anybody that they're a woman either But I'm saying it deliberately because that's true I mean that is true everywhere the old are the most marginalized and really the most oppressed They're right now locked down in nursing homes and they're not able to even see their families remember that Are you saying that old men are not marginalized or they are they are of course they are but not as much as old women Old men like look at Joe Biden, you know, he's running for president of the United States And he probably doesn't have all his wits together He might be the next president. You think an old woman with dementia could do that? No I don't know or or or a young woman without it. Yeah, right what we only have five more minutes to our hour all right Getting back to history. I'm just going to briefly mention that we're in dangerous territory when we're erasing history I was in the soviet union twice and I was in the linden library once and Noting the portraits of the founding fathers of the soviet union Stalin and linden and trotsky However, trotsky was airbrushed out of that portrait. Is that a good idea? Trotsky was a huge contributor to the founding of the soviet union and international communism everywhere We might not like it. They don't like it apparently or Joe Stalin didn't like it and he was assassinated eventually But should he be airbrushed out of the enormous part that he played in the russian revolution? I don't think so. I don't want to get to that point Let me let's finish about jefferson because I think that is the most interesting point They all wanted to topple jefferson. So what do you think about that? What do we think about toppling a man like jefferson or even washington because they were slave owners? Yeah, again, I mean I think you know my original point was where does this end? You know, are we trying to find a chaste superman? statue to you know honor Because all all these people had flaws, you know, if we continue to go and honestly, you know Look at the beginning when when charlotte'sville was about to happen the protest there that turned into you know mayhem And a white supremacy rally There was discussion there were discussions about the removal of those confederate statues prior to that protest and The president trump jumped in and he said that okay, you know, where does this end? You know because the he said himself that the founding fathers, you know, these guys were not saints by any stretch of the imagination Especially judged, you know by the people of the present, you know, so yeah, all these people had slaves Yeah, it was known that jefferson had slaves beaten It was known that jefferson actually because he was literate used to write up ads To capture escaped slaves and it was known that he slept with slaves Yeah, a lot of kids with sally hemmings Right and and sally was 14 when he was 50 It wasn't a beautiful to you know, beautiful 18 year olds falling in love and having a wonderful interracial relationship You know, so there was a tremendous a huge difference in power in that relationship So, yeah, yes, these were flawed men, but I think at the end of the day 200 225 years later We need to be able to separate the message from the messenger and at the same point jefferson wrote the uh, the declaration of independence and he did contribute significantly to the founding of this country Yet he was a flawed man Personally, well, he was deeply flawed and so is washington in fact jefferson probably more than washington Because washington emancipated his slaves But jefferson wrote the declaration of independence After all that all men are created equal those men also did not choose monarchy They chose to have a republic as you recall and get rid of a monarchy. They formed the basis of a republic Those things should be taught as well as well as the fact that he had sex with a 14 year old slave and produced slaves That he did not emancipate Yeah, and it's a real a real problem that guy But we're we're still trying to live up to the ideals that his documents Described and you know, he wasn't good enough to live up to his own ideals But he was able to eloquently express them and these are you know guiding and founding principles of this country I know whether we like it or not. I do like it. I like it. Those are ideals Sorry about this. I can't turn it off. I'm sorry But anyway, any final comments robin Uh, no, I think this was a very interesting conversation and uh, thank you for it Hey, man, I wanted to remind you to try to get that discussion about The mural that would be terrific. Mm-hmm. Okay terrific and I'd love to participate in that I found it. I'm so happy you had it here robin because it's very beautiful. Yes. Okay All right. Thank you and We'll see you Kurt. I hope to see you on Friday. Yeah, thanks everyone. But thank you. Bye. Bye