 and Center for Democratic Memory for having invited me to facilitate this panel discussion, I would like to embrace the initiative to put forward this open discussion, which is absolutely timely. The topic today is the colonial legacy and its impact today. So I would like to introduce all the speakers. This panel discussion is Christopher Columbus and the fight for the narrative. This is a very timely topic, but we move forward, we move backwards rather. We will give the floor first to Stefano Jim Colani. I would like to introduce Stefano before his presentation. Stefano Singolani is a medievalist historian trained in Rome-Sapienza University. He's been a researcher, a visiting professor in Catalan literature in UB, as well as in UPF. He also works in collaboration with UOC. He's specialized in Catalan literature, as well as in Catalan history from the 10th century to the 14th century. He's the co-author of History of Catalonia by Euma. He will be speaking about Christopher Columbus and the pseudo story of Catalonia. Stefano, you've got 15 minutes ahead for your presentation. Thank you very much. Hello and good afternoon, one and all. It's clear that I'm Italian, but it doesn't mean that I'm an Italian Shabbiness. I'm not a defender of Italianity of Christopher Columbus. And at the end of the day, I'm not very much interested in the details regarding the geographic origins of Christopher Columbus. I've never been an admirer of explorers. I should also leave this very clear. The topics that I'm going to be dealing with are pseudo histories and their consequences. That is a marginal narrative, because at the end of the day, outside Catalonia, this debate is not taking place. But in Catalan environments, this topic has had a certain dissemination, a certain acceptance. And of course, all this has had impact. I would like to discuss about how this narrative defines Catalonia's history or at least attempts to do so. And more importantly, the relationship between Christopher Columbus and the discovery and later conquest of the new continent. So these are the two topics on the table. The first one, what is the real historic theater that the Institute for New History and its funder and spiritual leader, Jordi Welbin, identifies as corresponding to the sailor, Columbus. And I would like to reflect also about how this history matches the general revisitation of Catalan history and also Spanish history as well as global history that this Institute defends. So to start, I would like to say that Jordi Welbin identifies Christopher Columbus with a certain Joan Colom Ibertran, a son of a Catalan family from Barcelona, the 14th century, a wealthy trader family. It should also be said that he's not the first one to put on the table this potential identity, Catalan identity of Christopher Columbus. There's a bibliography throughout the 20th century that points at this matter. It should also be said, and I would like to say that this is extremely important, that Christopher Columbus, at least after the 20th century, has become some sort of modern hummer. Everyone tries to find its alternative land, homeland. Of course, many of them are amateur historians and use unreliable data. It's been said that he was from Ibiza, from Mallorca, from Vienna. So that would be the son of John II the King. He's been attributed to Portugal, to Galicia, to many different geographies. Of course, there are several potential Catalan identifications. A couple of pirates claim to be also relatives of Christopher Columbus. And other countries has argued that Christopher Columbus was a Scottish from Sardinia or even from Greece. Of course, there are doubts. There are big question marks regarding the origin of Christopher Columbus. This is nothing new, right? And at the same time, this is not enough to justify all this long and never-ending list of identifications of Christopher Columbus of the Western Indies, because he didn't even know that he had discovered America. He never knew that. So what I know regarding Columbus and the theories of the new history theories is the result of a chapter that I co-wrote with Christopher Furnace, a book of history against Catalonia. It was entitled, For an average reader, for a non-expert reader, the argument of Jordi Bilbin, who's written more than a book about Christopher Columbus, Columbus has modified and evolved his ideas. So for a non-expert reader, what he says seems to be proved with documents, with dates, and with historic proofs. But if we double-check the internal coherence of Jordi Bilbin's narratives, if we really double-check what these documents say, how they are written or how they are interpreted, well, it is clear that there is a high degree of manipulation. The dates are manipulated, and the concepts used are manipulated. There's an absolute manipulation, I would say. The traditional technique of the members of the new Nueva Historia Institute is what's called cherry picking. That is, they take a statement, they bring it out of context, and it's then offered as an absolute fact when actually the very next sentence could say the opposite. So this system, this manipulative system, this non-observance of data and facts, this transformation of historic information is a tradition in Mr. Bilbin, and also some pseudo historians who had argued for the Catalan identity of Christopher Columbus, well, they are declared as sources of inspiration, and Rick Mejana de las Doplas and Callos Paralada are good examples of the previous. In summary, it could also be said that Jordi Bilbin's theories and the Nueva Historia Institute theories are something that Joan Coulom-Ivartran, after having participated in the Civil Catalan War in 1462 to 1472, had been dispossessed of Catalonia. He would have seek refuge in Portugal, then he would have come back a few years after. The exact dates are unclear, but I'm quite precarious on the lack of coherence, so it's quite difficult to understand when he would have been back to Catalonia using the fake identity of Christopher Columbus. Like Eve in the 15th century, there was an ID card or a passport that imposed citizens an identification. It's not the case. Furthermore, and before discovering the West Indies, he would have married a Portuguese princess who would have brought him the title of Prince of Catalonia, and he would be the hidden father of Erasmus the Rotterdam. And all this is argued but not proved. It's rather a falsification of a document, a permanent falsification of documents. And one of the basis, one of the pillars of the Nueva Historia Institute is that all narratives from the Catalan myth, history, and even almost all archived documents, almost all archived documents, narration, chronicle, narrative, no matter what would have been censored by the Spanish censorship throughout the 15th century, and even the 17th century. So, in the case of Christopher Columbus, in theory, it would, well, his relationship with the discovery of the New Continent would have been hidden, as well as the participation of Catalans and the Lenchens in the discovery of colonization of the peninsula. Having said that, having said that, I mean, of course, I don't have time to get in detail, but it could be said that all this is a manipulative narrative, an incoherent narrative. What really interests me regarding the discussion that we are having this evening is that according to the authors of Nueva Historia, Bartolome de las Casas, and Osman Cortes would also be a Catalan, and if we bring on board these three, the mess of their narrative is endless, because the Nueva Historia Institute considers also, of course, that Catalans are good, per se. They are more superior to Spaniards, and they defend the first colonization, the first colonization of the Americas by the Catalans and the Lenchens would have been much more understanding with indigenous compared to the Spanish invasion of the Americas. So it's clear that this perspective, amongst many other conflicting elements, clashes with the matter of origin of the black legend that José Luis Bilacas will speak about after myself with the first conquerors were Catalans and Valentians, and they were much more civilized than the Castilians. Why is it possible that another Catalan is at the origin of the black legend? Is it not contradictory to say that this goes against the traditional understanding according to which the Spaniards behave merciless in the Americas? And here is where one of the conspiranoic theories of the insiders stems from. Why do I say that? Mainly because all the Catalan history has been censored according to them. The Catalan history has been censored by the Spanish Castilians. The representatives of Nueva Historia consider themselves to be the only ones that have been able of discovering the few... Well, of course, censors were good but not good enough for them not to be able to discover new proofs regarding the original Catalanity of all the history of the Iberian Peninsula since the 10th century all the way to the 16th century, and partially they would be also responsible for universal and European history. Why do I say that? Well, I say that because according to them, according to them, until the 16th century, there was a universal Catalan empire that according to them, as I will tell you briefly, accepted all the topics, all the history of the Castilian imperialism, and imperialism, which is, of course, absolutely criticized and censored because it's the responsible of forgiveness, it's the responsible of one of the most incredible manipulations of universal history. And all this narrative, all this fantasy, all this fiction-less fantasy is contradictory on the first hand due to the internal arguments because, of course, all proofs might have been falsified and that means that, well, it's quite intriguing and frustrating because in their personal vision, Catalan and afterwards, Balencians would be the good ones, would be the ones in charge of reconquests of the Mediterranean empire, the discovery of the new continent, etc. And the Spaniards are always described as a primitive people, disorganized, and, of course, dependent on Catalonia. What looks or seems incredible is about this race, this superior race, which is the Catalans, which ended up dominating the world, or half of it at least, allowed the Spaniards to steal from them an empire by the Spaniards, who are always described as incapable of any positive element, both in terms of political or cultural terms. So how is that possible? Can such a deep forgiveness be justified? Because, of course, it would seem like Catalans have forgotten about our own glorious history, as it's defined by the representatives of the Nueva Historia. Is it the man in black who made us forget about it, or is it some sort of collective Stockholm syndrome, a collective and never-ending Stockholm syndrome? Because, according to the fantasies of the Nueva Historia Institute, the literature, the Golden Century literature, was mainly in Catalonia, and then translated into Spanish, and then forgotten. Santa Peradabila, La Ceridad Torres, would be Catalonia, El Quijote, would also be Catalonia, because he was from Chichón, according to them, and even it would be the same person as William Shakespeare. You really have to develop a fantastic literature skills to believe that both writers are the same person, El Quijote and Shakespeare. And according to Nuevo Instituto, the Feet, the Reconquer, all these are Catalan milestones. Not to speak about James I, who is defined as a liar, because both Mallorca and Valentin had already been conquered before him. So, considering that I need to conclude my presentation here, what's really concerning here is that the Nueva Historia Institute, in order to catalyneize universal history, Iberian and universal history, assumes that the Aragonese and the anti-Catalan Aragonese narrative is just fake, as well as all the horrible myths of the Spaniards, not the vision developed by good historians and the vision they have about the medieval times. They consider that all the Spanish myths are Catalan myths, actually, and that they just misappropriated them. And according to them, this would have to contribute to Catalan independence and self-awareness. And as I kind of noted in the book, the Spaniardization of the Catalan history, because this is an Spaniardization, would have loved Minister Bert, who wanted to re-spanish Catalan boys. There's no better way to do so than accepting Spanish history as it being Catalan history. Perhaps Minister Bert was a donor of the Nueva Historia Institute. Thank you very much, and I hope that my presentation was interesting. Thank you very much, Stefano. Thank you very much, and I would like to give the floor now. Thank you Stefano for singing to the times. And thanks for your narrative. Thanks for your... Thanks for the topic. It's been very interesting. I would like to give the floor to Juan Luis Bilacáñez, who I believe will make a link between this narrative and another perspective. José Luis Bilacáñez is a professor and an historian of philosophy, as well as the historic concepts and mentalities. He's a professor in philosophy in Universidad de Complutante de Madrid. He's the director of the library for Spanish thinking, and amongst his last books, we find Imperio Filia and the Catholic nationalism. This presentation is entitled about the so-called Spanish Empire, with some conceptual decisions. José Luis, the floor is yours. 15 to 20 minutes. Thank you very much. I think I can't screen the video. Oh, there we go. The camera, I meant. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for your presentation. Thank you very much for the invitation. And thank you very much for... Thanks for the European Institute for Democratic Memory. My presentation is very much related with Stefano's presentation. By the way, I would like to warmly greet Stefano, because I recall him, I remember him with a lot of affection because we used to study together James I, Giaoma Primim. I believe that it's very important to clarify something here. To a certain extent, Spain never had what we could define as an empire. Spain had an amazing power, but they never ruled an empire because for you to have an empire, you need a formal constitution, a very specific constitution based on a substantive base which would be the ruling of the Supreme Court, the capacity to develop a pseudo parliamentary regime and more specifically an empire requires of a federation, a federation that includes a certain division of powers. That means that the Supreme Judge controlling the currency and the army would not be the Supreme Legislator. And for many years, for many years during the medieval times, probably from Giaoma Prime onwards and for a while the Hispanic powers have had an important aspiration to relate to the empire in the European sense of the word. And this was the meaning of the support Spain gave to the America's invasion and the invasion of Sicily as well as Alfonso Decimo who well it's important to make a clear difference here because there's this imperial projection that many Hispanic powers have had to go on the crown and the Castilian crown with what we call today the Atlantic expansion because the empire in its medieval sense, in its clear institutional sense placed at the center the defense of Islam the conquest of Jerusalem and the possession of the Mediterranean one could speak about an empire only when we have these elements and empires have often times been centered in the Mediterranean the Atlantic expansion which ended up benefitting the Spanish and Portuguese power has other reasons of being and clearly it has no possible projection that could be considered an imperial projection because at the end of the day we are now finding an alternative pathway for all the trade that had been blocked by Constantinople and this Hispanic expansion gave path to a patrimonial increase but not an empire because of course for an empire to be such they have to be recognized by social groups what happened in America what happened with the Atlantic expansion first in the Canary Islands and then in the rest of America in relationship with Castilia is the expansion of a patrimonial power that in this specific case could reproduce in a mimetic way the different forms the different institutional forms that had been established in the Iberian Peninsula at the same time that could deploy the mimetic of the different forms in which the peninsular powers especially those that had been in touch with Islam until the very last moments the ways they deployed during the 15th century from this perspective it's very important to understand that the Spanish expansion was seen and understood as an expansion of the practices of the expansion both towards the south of Andalufia and towards the north of Africa and no matter who sees the payroll of those that embarked towards America with the aim to reorganize the recently discovered land well one discovers that many of them there are descendants second generation descendants of the Spaniards that had been up in the north of Africa at the end of Cardinal Schiff Meadows so at the end of the day they are the same social class the small bourgeois, the petit bourgeois who at the end of the day what they did as a job was to steal from not discovered lands such as Algiers, Tunis amongst others and the most relevant element from my perspective the most relevant element from my side is that we haven't realized that this form of power was very sudden it happened in a very sudden way Castile was not ready for such a big discovery, Castile did not have the mentality they were not even looking for it so it was accepted in a quite reluctant way by the Castile kings not in a very glorious manner and of course it was before anything the field for the expansion of a way of life that was defined by a great historian as a society ready for war that's what it is about the petit bourgeois what a way of economy and the war economy and thus once they conclude that it's impossible to invade North Africa they try to discover other grounds not just America to find a job there to keep invading to keep dominating which is at the end of the day their job and this is well known, it's well known that political design of the Castilian kings and queens, be it the Aragon kings or the Bourbonia kings but the American politics was led by the Castilian kings and queens so it can be proved that there is no project, no remotely organized project regarding this domination process actually they took very many well, they were based on informality which was related with traditional saying in Castilla which is today very frequent in America also which is obey me but don't do what I say of course everyone can decide the guidelines approved by Elizabeth the Catholic regarding the way indigenous peoples had to be treated all this was obeyed but not fulfilled and there was no rebellion I believe that the most important element that one should say regarding these big American power is that the Castilians that embarked towards the Americas brought with them the aspirations the fundamental aspirations of the Castilians that stayed in the peninsula and more specifically the fundamental aspiration for a service-based society in the medieval times it was oftentimes said if you don't have a moral you don't have gold in a very mimetic way with indigenous peoples if you don't have an indigenous on your behalf you don't have gold so the way indigenous populations were split the way slaves where split was the fundamental intrinsic aspiration and not accidental the intrinsic aspiration of the conquerors in the sense that they were hired to set an example to become the Thibault Joie and the Thibault Joie as we all know are exempt of any form of work and thus they just look for a job the essential aspiration of the different kings as lords of Castilia in fact in America with some of the titles that were contested of course by many agents Spanish theologist and also impugnated by Francisco de Vitoria and by many other type of European theologies and therefore was something legitimate and under the focus of debate the main aspiration of these kings was essentially related to something fundamental and it was not to produce in America great part of the aristocracy the official Castilian history tends to consider the Castilian powers since the Catholic kings as powers which were greatly established and this is a perspective which is not quite fitting within history King Ferdinand the new civil war in Andalusia the death of Isabel the Catholic which was impugnating its own government and it was also impugnating its own government because of specific movements of the high nobility if in Andalusia therefore the Castilian kings what they aspire to is not to reproduce great aristocracy in America but in the United States there is a lot of government which besides refusing this able to refuse this idea so they don't receive the news from Cortes Cortes has become neutralized he's the only high representative which is considered there but once he has this role of Marquis and he's obliged to become a Cortesan of course they we still have documents in which we can see that Cortes was considered by the indigenous population of its own king he was hailed as one of his kings and these letters reach the monarchy and they are afraid seriously afraid and they place a crown on Cortes but the most important thing the one that I want to highlight is that the great powers in America do not have structures, they do not have a specific shape they do not have any real project and they can only do one thing and whatever they can do is to bring to the conquistadores as much as they obtain what is related to this is that they cannot unless they have someone important they are within the hierarchy system they cannot control either the whole of the structure of conquistadores and therefore they are permanently facing a very strange conundrum because either they have to generate a real hierarchy and category in America generate a real anarchy anarchy is about to happen just when the new laws of the India 1542 deny the possibility to the people there the possibility of inheriting the property when the encomanderos are told that they are public civil servants they have encomandas according to the king and therefore they are not lords of slaves but the only fiscal lord of the indigenous population is the king at that moment in Mexico there is a generation of an extraordinary uncertainty producing something very important and we could call it they call it the santa junta but in a way this is just a proto-parliamentary reality because they gather the different bishops they gather the members of the caches there is also a meeting by the chapter and also the representatives of the municipality the audience and all together they organize like a proto-parliament in the capital Tenochtitlan from this proto-parliament it is said they are not going to apply the new laws that is to say they are going to disobey the king mainly with the argument that the king is too far away from his properties and he doesn't have a genuine knowledge of the reality of Mexico the king then realizes that this proto-parliament is generating a certain capacity of autonomy and he decides to improvise from one day to another a system of governance which is a system of governance which is not Castilian it's a system of governance typical of the crown of Aragon which is the system of viceroys and the system of the crown of Aragon was practically designed in order to distribute the different responsibilities of the royal family and here it is delivered almost immediately to one of the sons of the Mendoza family but it's not by coincidence because what happens is that the Mendoza family had the monopoly of the governance of Granada that is to say the last territory conquered by the monarchy therefore in a memetic way due to the need of the government made by these moriscos they launch a real capacity of government in other territories towards Mexico Antonio de Mendoza he softens the situation Tauna de Mora for the application of the new legislation and he pacifies America he pacifies Mexico where we do not have this immediate system of these viceroys in Peru there is a civil war dearticulating completely the whole of the Hispanic domination and it ruins all the possibilities of generating a presence in this part of Tijuana in Surio of what we know now as the Inca Empire it is very important to point towards this double variation because it shows how in reality the Hispanic monarchy in Central America and South America it's going to happen after the facts so it's kind of organizing like a plan B or a provisional solutions according to the problems they encounter however it's quite peculiar and it shows very clearly what is the interest of the crown and we see a couple of things that happen there that tell us that we are talking about the colony and not an empire the first issue is the following viceroys cannot be criollos that is to say they cannot come from America and they cannot be part of the original population and they have to govern for very few months in order not to intimate or marry the natural population so they are preventing a native aristocracy and the second one is the viceroys can only happen there is only two during the first modernity until the 18th century precisely because they are responsible for the territories with great silver mines one in Potosi, Peru and the other one in Potosi, Mexico and therefore these proofs that the way to build the power there by the hispanic monarchy somehow a way of being closely related to the control of raw materials mainly gold and silver leaving no doubt white autonomy in the urban regime that is very important to highlight and giving some importance and autonomy to this urban regime generating oligarchies because this regime is extraordinarily stable and loyal to the monarchy and they lose completely the interest in the construction of the territory which could maybe generate a future once the monarchy is not longer there of course if to this situation we add that one of the main reasons for the hispanic monarchy translating its powers to America is the obsession for pure blood and then we realize that the same structure of the governmental facts in America in a way they copy they mimicize the governing structure that for many years we have had with the Muslims conquered by the Spaniards and which do not obey any specific design close to the lands that had been covered and dominated and therefore in this sense we could easily say that Spain had domination over America but it had a domination over America without any specific understanding of the problems that those lands had and I think this develops this kind of isomorphism so specific of the hispanic societies and also the ibero-american societies nowadays which they share in a way the same constituent period which has been dominated by an extremely weak political governance and extremely concentrated in problems of survival more than problems of design and construction thank you very much José Luis also for not exceeding the time and thank you for your presentation we are now going to hear to Cielo Seisenberg from the University of Barcelona if during the first presentation Stefano was placing us in a place to be an empire José Luis was telling us that this empire does not exist but now Cielo is going to place at the other side of the Atlantic and all this is celebrated with a specific date the 12th of October and in her intervention it's from celebration to claiming 12th of October a key date in Latin America American history and professor of the department of history of the University of Barcelona also collaborative professor of the work and member of the research group of andines he sees also specificities in the history of Argentina in the process of the creation of the nation state and creation of identity and author of many publications Cielo you have the floor well thank you very much I'm glad you can hear me well thank you very much for inviting me to this conference thank you Marta for the presentation I was especially happy to participate in this conference because I think this is a moment of reflection which is very important to debate on questions that sometimes don't get out of the academic world everybody can and don't but I think we should organize more debates more historical question within our society in general we will continue questioning these narratives having said that we could say that one of the big question marks for American historians is not only how the commemoration of the 12th of October came to light day of reflection but how this change did not happen before and the most important thing is how to emphasize the vindication aspect of this day in order not to produce the reading where these indigenous communities are not at the heart of this process what is clear is that there were several historical facts that were very important in the American continent and of course it generated an important change of perception around this celebration in some countries the American continent for example the magical date of the 500 years 1992 has allowed in a way to crystallize in part of the population the American historical claims generating through this symbol of this celebration a symbol of common belonging with the rest of the region although it will not be interesting to deal with this and also we won't have time to talk about the context and the history of this celebration especially we want to talk about the change so what I want to deal with during my intervention and this framework in which it's still digital but we are within extra academic environment I would like to talk about the brief analysis of the political uses of memory through this celebration and I would like to give you some hints and propose some lines in order to understand this fact and the different consequences in America there are several geopolitical factors behind the institutionalization of different dates such as for example the national celebration of Latin America either by decree or by law apparently the initiative was from the government of Irigoyo 1917 in Argentina I say apparently because there are different questions about this but we have not given many identities to these debates some of them are pointing to Dominican Republic well it's not very debatable but the most important thing as I was saying is that these geopolitical factors which are behind the institutionalization of this date at the beginning of the 20th century they had determined for example and there were some things behind this celebration of the encounter how to celebrate first of all the construction of wish Iberian Americanity at least from a symbolic perspective on the other hand the hypothesis that if the region did not join Spain and Portugal we run the risk of recolonization by the United States and thirdly also the geocultural position of the Iberian peninsula the bridge between the western world and the eastern world north and south this symbolic date was introduced in some political arena and also in some media and the relevance was pointed to as the historical myth of the discovery or the encounter as many call it however as we were approaching 1992 the celebration of the 500 years was seen and was opened towards a new global arena of specific debates but also specifically in 1991 because that year 1991 one of the authors who have a very interesting work Charnoni and Fernando de Nogue they say that it was then in 1991 when we saw the origin of this counter celebration as a political celebration due to local, national, regional international reasons so if we institutionalize the 12th of October that was before celebrating the matrix of culture, language between Spain and Latin America was given birth to a movement of refusion towards this orchestration and it took the different American peoples of the region to become political hegemonic force truth therefore peoples and communities of America organize themselves in order to celebrate the 500 years as a resistance as it said by Mengoa in an ideal space in order to hear to those who so far have become silent time goes by the different indigenous social movements were writing public text and authorizing claims of justice and historical reaper not only did we see an emergence of a new political subjectivity but also the progressive support by wider sectors of society and in the middle of this process whether it is true that in Costa Rica in 1994 they started celebrating the 12th of October as the day of cultures alluding to a social and cultural multi-ethnic capacity of the country the truth is that what happens well the real rupture in a way is the wave of leftist governments in Latin America especially with Evo Morales the president of Bolivia as a maximum expression and they also generalize this questioning but from the sphere of power so the name on behalf of this celebration which was fundamentally the day of their race as a significant celebration according to Professor Contreras it's a question and they open a process or an intention in order to decolonize language in Argentina for example the government of Cristina Fernández they changed the day of their race by the day of respect for cultural diversity and in 2004 already a member of parliament presented the project for the 13th of October in order for it to be declared as the day of the popular indigenous resistance a symbol because it was the day after to this date on the other hand Rafael Correa decree in Ecuador that the day of their race was going to be called the day of interculturality and plurinationality in Nicaragua Venezuela call it the day of the indigenous resistance and Evo Morales in Bolivia the day of the decolonization in Peru they celebrate the day of original peoples and intercultural dialogue Chile there is a law approving the year 2000 modifying what it was characterized as the day of the encounter between two worlds and they declared not the 12th of October not the 13th of October that the 11th of October as the day of the claims by original peoples so the day before the specific date I really find it relevant and interesting this change of celebration the day before and after finally without any Amerindian nuance in 2009 in Chile the 12th of October as the day for respect towards cultural diversity but not the whole of Latin America has joined this claim El Salvador for example they continue to talk about the day of the race in the US they continue to celebrate Columbus Day although many cities and states are eliminating this celebration and they call it in a name which shows more respect for native peoples and I would like to dwell on another question which I think is very important also in order to understand the change of paradigm of the celebration and the truth is that before this legislative change before those decrease and changes of name and this is why at the beginning I was saying what do we place at the center who is the political actor of the change of paradigm between and before this legislative change before this formal change in the name of the day the indigenous resistance contest started much before precisely in Santiago de Chile the 12th of October commemoration day was celebrated for the first time in 1991 therefore choosing the date celebrates and they chose this day in order to make society aware of the 500 years of conquista and not much more so to remember this year one year before the date allow them to create some groups for the preparation of a platform of joint fight against a series of rights from the indigenous people so they are hitting up the engine in several countries of Latin America between 1991 and 1992 different committees were created in order to organize the celebration of the 500 years of conquer as a way to make visible the claims of these communities in parallel to the big celebrations the encounter they prepare this celebration of claims and demands and resistance make very clear is that before talking from a legislative perspective in the change of name, the change of name of this celebration of the 12th of October it was from the decade of the 90 that the ethnic emerged as an expected push the Zapatista movement with a raise of the liberation army from the discourse and the strong cultural accent of the different agreements of peace, the confederations and indigenous peoples in Ecuador and Peru the intense mobilization of the different organizations Armada and Quechua in Bolivia and also the presence of Mapuche in Chile and the media impact of this movement and some leaders in different Amazon peoples in Brazil Ecuador, Guayanas, Venezuela, Peru, Colombia all these is just a small sample of the importance of this phenomenon the emergence then of this movement as a political actor happened as a result of the coincidence of multiple factors the shock of civilization that all of the Southern produce civilatory awakening but the continuous resistance for the survival of the indigenous people in the different historical scenarios conquest, colonization independence and republics so this is what promoted the active decolonization process during the first decade of the 21st century the legislative point of view they changed the name and many left movements and also with the contribution of different scholars and this is what caused this research on how do we call that date but of course how do we talk about the whole of the process of conquest so what are the different symbolic claims but also specific claims of the civilizations which are implemented from the origin until our current days, the Amerindian fight of the Abayalas people with the participation of different parties they claim the indigenous resistance one year after another and also the different claims due to the circumstances according to the country and according to the different conditions of these communities they claim the discrimination of those peoples and every year they place specific demands in the middle of historical demands such as the recognition of autonomy and territory of the Amerindian people and on the other hand little by little we have made more visible the situation of these countries that were exterminated by the state on the birth equation which was the celebration of the centenary which we still have in the celebration of these Byzantennials and also let's say the independence and those states and the nation state also as a movement of who is carrying out this leader one example is what we call I have different colleagues who are naming these in different ways but the conquest of the desert where original communities were exterminated in the Republic the conquest of these lands in order to serve the interests of the capital this in the territory of Chaco Paraguay also with the Amazonia is taken by these movements as a claim not only the 500 years of conquer and colonization so in the celebration of this date October the 12th many different claims are articulated there is a denunciation on the conquest on the expaliation by the European metropolis there is also a denunciation about the hegemonic stories the built narrative one would say built by the projects of the new republics that reproduced nation states that are exclusive and discriminatory it's also key to understand the rave indication of today's exploitation conditions the political and physical violence that indigenous peoples experience when trying to defend their rights and their lands now the violence is not necessarily exerted by nation states but rather by governments and companies that allow abusive bills and look to the other side when there are claims about the extractivism I would like to conclude the American cultures share the destiny of pain but at the same time the story of resistance the historical process which was little by little which position different groups in a common struggle which started claiming warranties and their own traditions their own sovereignty acknowledgement recognition as well as political participation and this ended up being expressed every October the 12th since the beginning of the last century well October the 12th was further developed with new concepts, metaphors and a reinterpretation of historic projects and a refurbishment of the harmonical territories I would like to end with an idea October the 12th a very remarkable date from the past that acquires relevance in today's present and it encloses the commitment of the coming meaningful for future communities in the majority of Latin American countries originally communities as well as many social groups claim the date as an homage to the struggles and the struggle for reflection a reflection this reflection well it's not only about what happened 500 years ago about reflecting on why the system is still perpetuated and reproduced for certain communities one could on the line that colonization is still alive in language many authors prevails in language in social relationships and the subordinations that control the continent and that still run the continent is still run by a social stratification based on the color of the skin and a pattern towards Eurocentrism and I am sure that this practice of reflection and this placing big question marks on the table is key is an element this criticism from Latin America is a way to somehow provide food for thought in Spain and the rest of the world and I would like to close here I have said that I was about to conclude the 10 times but now I am ready to conclude the expert from survivor international on the line that October the 12th is open to the same rhetoric of winning a war and perpetuating death by calling it the day of his vanity to deny what happened in reality she says it would be unthinkable that all the empires like the British Empire or the French Empire to celebrate the day of colonization thank you very much thank you thank you very much fellow thanks for sticking to the time if you agree we can now turn on all our cameras because there are several questions for the four of us and this will be a way to perhaps make it more fluent make it more fun one would say one has disappeared Stefano are you there why listening to your presentation and while listening to José Luis presentation I am the director of the news and we say that the house is an American house it was born at a time when we claim Americanism and not ispanism right so at a time when colonies are lost we need to start facing America face to face and not from a vertical kind of feel like I need to apologize for being punished and I always have the same answer I keep saying perhaps it was your grandparents because my grandparents are still here in Spain so there is a whole hybridation in America which is sometimes not fine tuned in on today's narrative and I think this is extremely fascinating Marta my apologies I just record Stefano is sharing his screen and now we can see his very nice picture I don't know what I did stop sharing screen I don't know exactly what you have to do but we are seeing your fantastic picture here in your back of your screen how can I undo what I did yeah there is a little well we are going to let him do that and then we will resume the interpretation service in theory you can stop sharing there is a new function let's see here I quickly with an image that has nothing to see and so there it is okay a publicity perfect and advertisement so once I had a discussion with Delordio he used to tell me that he would tell their students oh let's speak in now it let's all speak in now it and I was reflecting also about well last week I met with a theater group that works on the topic of memory the indigenous memory the Amerindian memory and he this group used to tell me that for them text is a colonial imposition so when they do theater they don't use a text because text per se is a colonial imposition so it's quite fun as a concept isn't it when you dig in when you start discussing about this topic I mean to understand things profoundly so I have a question for you and there are many in the pipeline the Mexican president asks Spain to apologize do you think that's the way to go do you think 500 years after a country should apologize for what happened 500 years ago do you think this is the way to go what do you think about these requests from the Mexican president who should ask answer sorry I think that it's absolutely stupid to ask for forgiveness that's what Italy does oftentimes what I think would be timely is to have a critical understanding as Thielo said what are we doing speaking about the Spaniard today Spaniards today's Spaniards are not responsible for what Philip II but of course as Jose Luis said before there is a certain perpetuation of colonialism here in Spain and this needs to be stopped so we need an awareness raising process not so much awareness we should see what are we doing today in the present and for who we are working that's key that is for sure can I speak I would like to insist on this point because once in the process in the normalization process in South Africa the Archbishop was asked whether he as a religious man was not inclined to offer forgiveness to those that had deployed upper height and he said yes I'm actually inclined to offer my forgiveness to those that perpetuated upper height but first I want to know the truth what really interpeels us citizens is to be seriously committed towards truth and looking for truth in a cooperative way with the other side of the coin with the other side of truth and not only with what Spaniards did here or there it's about finding the whole truth in an open debate which is extremely delicate because of course we'll end up listening to painful and difficult things so it's all about having a holistic perspective about truth isn't it secondly I believe that there's something very important here and that is that we need to understand the logics of the Spanish powers which is a very peculiar logic I would say going on the weaker the better the weaker they are the greater our actions look October the 12th was celebrated for the first time in Spain in 1892 1892 was a year when the most horrific battles had taken place in Cuba and Cuba was almost lost nonetheless in 1892 Madrid based powers organized a march that crossed all Madrid from north to south from east to west crowded with people dressed up in Indians or their interpretation of what being indigenous meant so compensating what's about to happen Jesus stupid this whole apparatus which at the end of the day it's nothing more than a cover it's a cover up to cover the final defeat of the Spanish so it's very important to ensure that October the 12th well the Creole elites were absolutely pro-Spanish and in Spain it has very I mean the meaning of October the 12th in Spain is to cover our own shame whereas the Creole elites legitimate themselves thanks to October the 12th and they end up ruling on indigenous minorities capable of following the process so it's very important to understand that isometry that is the fact that in Spain there are social classes that are extremely related to this historic narrative and this reality is reproduced in America and in Spain there are popular classes that have turned the back to this narrative and of course they have suffered this simultaneously as well as indigenous had to suffer the Creole powers we should never forget the third African reality which is also a very important reality to understand the situation in America and we shall also know that this is an exaltation of the indigenous souls while Africa was already a constitutive element before America because the main business of the African expansion and the northwest coast was a slavery and this was of course implemented by the Portuguese and the Castilians even before Africa was known Africa is the base of Europe and America is also a base for Europe and today these claims are still forgotten, aren't they? Absolutely the original peoples are much more legitimized than African inheritance that are not originally from America but have been there for many generations now absolutely and perhaps we could not interpret this in a naive way, right? So, let's say out of context the elites, well now the elites are not Creole but of course they belong to other power factors and as they manipulate the narrative when elections come etc etc so this is a fact but as you said Martha what historic moment are we experiencing and what shall we do with this with this hot potato shall we say sorry shall we do a hara-kiri nobody knows but now as Stefano and José Luis were mentioning before of course we need to be aware at least about who we are and this is a very interesting anecdote I would say very interesting a few years ago I was invited to speak by an NGO that organized trips to the Amazons to help the local communities etc so these people would travel to the Amazons as you might remember these form of holidays was very trendy a few years ago and it was I mean it was very interesting after the presentation when I looked at the audience they were all looking at me like that they were all staring at me like really did we do that like us that's quite striking isn't it what do you mean us it was a new your ancestors they were absolutely touched so my only the only possible feedback that I could give them was well I don't know if it's time to be scandalized anymore in any case for me the only solution here is we need to understand the reality raise awareness and from there on as you said Marta stop looking others in a hierarchy way based on continents and societies and we should look at each other at the face as José Luis says because this is what can bring us closer and of course I have some more questions from the audience one question for Stefano so the hot potato there are two questions for me and the first one is do you think that bill gain lies or do they really believe what they say let me ask you the second question I've seen the questions but perhaps you can read them out anyway how is it possible that the theories the crazy things the crazy things said by so widely accepted by many members of society well at the beginning John probably believed his own narrative when he wrote that but now that we have digged in I think that they are lying and they know they are lying it's a direct manipulation I have no doubt about it of course I've been arguing with them be a Facebook and Twitter and other means and there are some people who defend their narrative they are not part of the institute so it's pretty interesting the defence and this brings me to answer the second question the defence they do is that there is an acceptance a general acceptance at a certain level there is an acceptance of freedom or the fact that academia is patronising new interpretations corresponding to what Institute in my study says censorship and the fact that well they are considered traitors now the main public acceptance comes from this idea that many people accept conspiranoic theories so probably it comes from a certain frustration regarding the lack of independence regarding ignorance what we have is ignorance about the history of the country the medieval history and all of it for several reasons why it hasn't been really studied so claiming our grandiosity has brought us to accept stories these crazy stories now it comes to the institutional recognition to institutional support in part this is possible because well they have links some members of the institute have links with Catalan institutions so they have been able to somehow invade the public to be in Catalonia they have important connections with the Catalan National Assembly so they have had the possibility to have an impact at the local level and at the municipal level but the base of the whole thing is ignorance unfortunately the fact that there is no transmission scientific knowledge I'm just thinking about scientific knowledge here and as a result of that theories like this but the world is full with crazy theories historic theories and this is the reason why they evolve and of course it's a matter of lack of knowledge absolutely when you listen to José Luis it's not like they look forward to accept this history or to gain ownership about it if they really were aware of the real narrative no one would really like to gain ownership on colonialism of course there is a clear lack of knowledge about the consequences of what one is accepting Marta can I speak? I think that one of the main specific symptoms of the culture that we have gone through well I would even say that almost all peninsular peoples probably not Portugal but here in the Iberian there are clear symptoms about the major problem we have regarding our own history and this is nothing new at the end of the day it's all about the culture that we've been raised in our culture stems from a Catholic world and the Catholic world consider it suburbious to write about mankind history but in a way it's been very useful to make sure that history is kept as a secret of state and this is very clear in Mariana Mariana at the end of the 16th century writes the only history of Spain that will be alive until my childhood but the history of Spain ends with Johan II the Castilian Juan because Mariana one century after could not write about Fernando the Catholic and this is a clear testimony of the fact that the Hispanic powers I would dare saying even that after Martí the first, the humane who wanted to make history of the present there has been a clear lack of willingness to build history or to express the power expression in history so this has allowed this antasmagoric dimension of history for many of our citizens in our countries and I believe that this is what gives history a this terogeneous character because when you have a tradition not like you can build up anything or invent anything but if you don't have a tradition you can say no matter what with no coercion, with no limitation and making others believe that the past is just depending on your preferences and I believe that this is extremely related with that deep feeling of illegitimacy of the Hispanic powers throughout times and I also believe that this is what blocks them when it comes to being transparent and organized their experience the last anecdote I would like to share when the Spanish history of Mendes Vidal was published it's one of the theoretically good history books Mendes Vidal met the minister in 1945 approximately I can't remember which minister it was, I think it was Ivaniev and he told the minister listen we're gonna get all the way to the 12th century and we need to count with the most important story on the 12th century, Sanchez Alvornot and Mendes Vidal told him what are you speaking about it's impossible we cannot count with the president of the republic the exiled president and Mendes Vidal was upset and told him minister we are gonna look ridiculous the only really prestigious historian is Sanchez Alvornot what are we gonna do if it's not with him and the minister said the minister said Mendes Alvornot don't speak to me about prestige send one of his boys to Germany to an institute of the jazz and let him write a PhD let's publish it in the newspaper and there you'll find your prestige so this lack of shame the word truth which is totally typically in illegitimate power makes that a country they explain is incapable of understanding its own history and having had to invent its history in a very crazy way the new history that Stefano speaks about is a big paranoia that's what the whole thing is about isn't it but it's part of this absurd dynamic world that is imposed on the people that have not had a permanent story of their present thank you José Luis I have a question for Celeste in the channel for Cielo sorry it's for you Cielo for some specific areas monuments where commemorations take place in America where the resistance to the American commemorations take place yes well there's one point here which is outstanding it might sound like irrelevant which is in which countries this festivity is celebrated as a national bank holiday other countries celebrate it but without declaring it a bank holiday and others don't this resistance this indigenous resistance base are celebrated in cities in towns of course there are different intensities in these celebrations well of course it has to do with cultural celebrations theater plays concerts music dance etc communities together with non governmental organizations in March they wear the traditional costumes there's also foot tracks in the street with different form different sorts of objects from the same communities in Ecuador the day is celebrated in the Ichinbia park and many of these celebrations I really like the word celebration it's a commemoration more than a celebration and one would say that it's channeled by the ministerial organization the ministry for the indigenous peoples in Venezuela organizes many of these resistance marches in different streets in the center of Caracas in Peru the Inca pathway is also another form of commemoration another important space where there's a symbolic claim in Rwai for example also in Rwai for example we see paintings and garments with not only of the streets but of different institutions and then we have other countries where they celebrate this day but it's not a festivity like Colombia and El Salvador for example and that's it, yes countries that don't celebrate it at all such as Panama, Brazil or Cuba it's quite interesting but there is this diversity there are different intensities and we find often the symbology made by monuments statutes etc the most important thing here is to pay attention to the movement not only the statue what we could do without because we have too many but we are like in monuments and movements so in a way this is one of the most relevant things to do well thank you very much, hello I'm being told that we have to close this round table there is one question I don't know very quickly because they have sent this question three times but if it cannot be and answer very quickly you tell me what are the specific reasons of the success of the book of Roca Varia in Spain in a certain way I have already explained that with the example I have given by Menendez Vidal I think that the reason for the success of this book is that it was an operation by the state and we counted on the involvement of very important powers and media which were with a very strong presence from a political perspective and with a huge deciding factor in the recent history of Spain and similar things but there is not much mystery from this point of view given the huge amount of powers that have supported it well thank you very much all of you, thank you the three speakers one of them had to leave Tielo we have to call it a day, it's been a great pleasure we continue for hours because we could be talking about this for hours and even days but I think it's quite pertinent to put this on the table of our debate and to reveal all the truths at least and to listen to all the voices and to rewrite history it's quite difficult but sometimes it's pertinent to do it and the importance of the narration also belongs to the 21st century so thank you very much, thank you for all your comments and contributions and thank you for participating in the roundtable thank you, all of you it's been my pleasure same thing I remind you that the second roundtable will start at quarter to seven please we recommend you to turn off your cameras and your microphones but don't leave the room and we will connect again in 15 minutes, thank you