 pushing a couple of settings here. My name is Grant McAllister. I am Associate Professor and Levison Faculty Fellow at Wake Forest University in the Department of German and Russian. I am one of the three co-conveners here. Welcome to tonight's presentation. We look forward to your participation and thank you for joining us. We've got a full screen for you tonight with lots of entertaining and informed commentary tonight. And I wanted to tell you that today, if you've not been joining us, one of the focuses that we have of this conference and a special focus in today with our walk-in session with Martha Hartley, talking about the history of enslaved here in Salem in the Hidden Town Project. In our morning conversations, we were talking about work with John Sensbach, who is going to be closing our academic portion of the conference tomorrow morning in a public session that you can tune in at 10 o'clock. This is our next time we'll get together after tonight to talk about the themes of this conference. And John and Martha and other folks around here, like Mel White, Daniel Cruz, were all inspired to do a lot of work in the 90s and the aughts on the story of the historic Black Moravian congregation in the country. And that's now St. Philip's Moravian here in Winston Salem, the church that was started in 1822, which is the last official year of our conference. And it's a bookmark for us and a change in race relations here in the Moravian community. But it was in part because of the inspired leadership of the long-come pastor of that congregation that those individual researchers were attracted to that field of interest. And Dr. Cedric Rodney served as pastor at St. Philip's in 68, retired in 2003. He had two tours there as a pastor. And he physically and his family are a part of our introductory bridge tonight because it's the Rodney family's presence, both in the Moravian community. And our host partners tonight at Winston Salem State that we're celebrating, because it was at Winston Salem State 2003. He met his future bride, Dr. May Rodney, in the director of the library there. And we're so glad that she's here with us tonight. And we want to welcome to now two professors in the Department of History, Politics, and Social Justice, Cynthia Villagomas, and Mr. James Blackwell. And Cynthia, you are going to do our introductions this evening. Welcome. Good evening. First, I'd like to express my gratitude to the co-conveners. Thank you so much for organizing tonight's keynote address and our discussions, but also for the whole every program. You've been very courageous because you've challenged us to not only think with our minds, but to truly think with our hearts. And you've developed these bridges of reconciliation and healing. And that's very important. And so I am very, very humbled and honored to welcome everyone and to represent my historically Black college, Winston Salem State University. And on behalf of my university, I bring warm greetings. So I will mention that tonight's program is sponsored by our dean, Dr. Dean Scriven. Also by our dean, Associate Dean, Laby Le Jour, who's the Associate Dean of Arts and Humanities and Social Sciences. From our provost's office, my dear friend and mentor, Dr. Kathy Stitz, who is a senior associate provost and dean of University College. I also bring greetings from my chair, Dr. Denise Nation. She's chair of the Department of History, Politics, and Social Justice, and a daughter of the Caribbean, native born Jamaican. And our department, by the way, was the long term home of Dr. Rodney. And so that's quite an honor. I also will mention Dr. Donna Benson, who's our US historian, senior professor. And then finally, Ms. Marion Roberts from Tobago, who is our associate in our department who had made many arrangements to welcome everyone, but especially our Reverend Kyrton Roberts. And so we regret that we weren't able to have you on our campus, but she's listening and she's actually brought in virtually the last person I'll mention, Dr. the very darling and wonderful Dr. Ruby Rodney, who's professor emerita of English at WSSU and long time one of the most esteemed elders in St. Philip's Moravian Church. So welcome, everyone, and thank you for inviting us to be part of this wonderful conference. And I believe that you've invited me to ask Dr. Mae Rodney and Professor James Blackwell, as well as our keynote lecture, the Reverend Dr. Winnell Kyrton Roberts, to introduce themselves. So Dr. Rodney. Thank you. My name, as you indicated, is Mae Rodney. One minor correction. I met my newly-beloved husband in 1983 when I arrived at Winston-Salem State. And we married in 1984. So we were partners for almost 29 years. It was a very interesting experience to be married to a Moravian minister. And he would always tell everyone that he was born and not a converted Moravian. He was born in South America, Ghana, South America. And thank you for this opportunity to share information about all of his work that he did at St. Philip's. For 40 years, he was the chaplain at Winston-Salem State. Was he not? Yes, that was his third love, Winston-Salem State. I'll put me out a little bit above the university. Good. Thank you for joining us. Cynthia, you want to introduce your fellow faculty member. Yes. So joining us this evening is Professor James Blackwell. He is a doctoral candidate at Michigan State University. He'll be defending his dissertation anytime soon. He's a native born North Carolinian. He graduated with his first two degrees from our sister school, North Carolina Central University. He is the student of the most gracious and inspiring historian, one of my heroes, Dr. Enwondo Echebi. So he's studying with her. And we are just so delighted that he's joined us this semester in our history program. Thank you. Would you like to make a few comments? Yeah, thank you, Cynthia. Sorry. I'm excited to be here tonight. I look forward to moderating this discussion. And I'm deeply passionate and fascinated by the relationship between Black and Arabians and just this German diaspora. Thank you. And Dr. Kirtan Roberts, I would like to just say that we're joining you this evening. And it's very special that you are with us because you are joining virtually so many North Carolinians. So your long lost, distant aunties, uncles, cousins, nieces, and nephews. It's often forgotten that the first people of African descent who were brought to the Carolinas, both what is now North Carolina as well as South Carolina, actually came mainly from Barbados. And in fact, the Carolinas were seen initially in the earliest colonial period as a colony of a colony. And so it's very special that you are joining your kin, both your spiritual kin and your blood kin. And I think that that is quite relevant for what you're going to be teaching us this evening. So welcome. Would you like to make a few comments? Thank you very much, Cynthia, for your most gracious welcome. And it is certainly an honor to be here with you. It is 1.13 AM in Geneva, Switzerland. And I'm really, really honored to be part of the presentation this evening. And thank you for that connection. I've often only made a connection between Barbados and I think it was part of Atlanta. And I didn't really make that connection. So that is something to be pursued. So I hope that everyone will be able to reflect because the story that I've shared is, yes, this is historical, but it's very personal as we seek to understand and connect the pieces together. So it's really great to be here. Thank you. Well, before we watch your lecture, I would actually like to read your bio. Many people might not have seen it on the conference website. So the Reverend Dr. Wendell Curtin-Roberts is a native of Barbados where she completed her primary and secondary education. She earned a BA from the University of the West Indies, Jamaica in 1992 and graduated from the United Theological College of the West Indies, Jamaica in 1993. She was blessed with a World Council of Churches Scholarship to pursue her Master's of Theology. And so the Princeton Theological Seminary was blessed to have her there in 1995 and 1996. Following this, she completed her PhD in History from the University of West Indies, Barbados in 2009. She is an ordained minister in the Moravian Church, Eastern West Indies Province, and has worked in Trinidad, Barbados, and the Virgin Islands. She served as superintendent of the sixth conference from 2008 to 2014 and secretary of the Provincial Elders Conference of the East West Indies Province. Dr. Curtin-Roberts taught Caribbean church history at Coddington Theological College from 2001 to 2006, philosophy, ethics, and religion at Barbados Community College from 2001 to 2006. In 1997, she published her publication, which included Vision for Mission for the Moravian Provincial Board, North American Province, and her monograph created in their image, Evangelical Protestantism in Antigua and Antigua and Barbados, 1834 to 1915. That was her dissertation, and then it was published in 2015. She's also contributed numerous entries to the Encyclopedia of Christianity in the Global South and on many islands in the Caribbean. Before we see the video, I would like for us to just consider a few things. One is that as we listen carefully to her lecture, we'll see that it's framed in an Africana religious studies context that she doesn't actually name, but it is there and what is so important for us to pay attention to in this way is that number one, beginning about 10 minutes into the lecture, she situates African Christianity within what becomes normative Christianity. So you can't understand church history without understanding the great contributions of early church mothers and fathers. And so she brings that up, which is so very important. Also, a part of Africana studies teaches us to learn not only with our mind, but also with our heart and our spirit. And if we don't learn in that holistic way, we are not learning. And so that's part and parcel of the Africana approach. And then notably, what she teaches us in this lecture is that we must never fall into a various dangerous potential trap in history. And that is that we can go back and reshuffle people. And so we have to be very careful to not present them in the image of their oppressors, but rather to try to find and empathize and find the truth of who they were and their agency. So I encourage you to listen to those arguments and those teachings. And then finally, in keeping, I think, a very important practice, which is the daily reading. The daily reading of the Moravian Church for today is let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in wisdom. And you will, Dr. Kirtan Roberts, be teaching us so much wisdom. And then lastly, I want to sanctify our listening and learning of the wisdom you'll share with the passage that is this part of the Orthodox Church reading for today. And that is let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond servant and coming in the likeness of man. And if we remember the teachings of the great liberation theologian James Cohn, will remember that he says that all true Christians and all believers will see Jesus as a black slave, that black is beautiful, African-ness is beautiful. And if you are a true believer, you will recognize that, the holiness of blackness. Thank you. About how the transition tonight's going to work. Okay, so everyone who registered received an email with a link to the video page for our conference where the videos are posted. And you can use that email link now, or if you want, please drag your cursor to the bottom of your Zoom screen and you'll see an icon that says chat. If you click on that chat button, I am now going to enter the link for this video. Please click on that link and it will take you to the webpage with the hosted videos. And you will want to find the video that is titled Black People, White God, Arabianism and the Cultural Purification of the Afro-Caribbean and Antiqua and Tobago. So I'm entering that in now. Hopefully everyone has found that and we got it. Did that show up, Eric? Did you see it? Yes, you're there. Okay, so please go ahead and click on that link. How long do you have on the timer tonight, Grant? I have one hour and 20 minutes and that will leave people roughly two minutes, three minutes to get to find the video page, to click on the video to get it up and running and that will also give people about three minutes to gather themselves and to come back to the Zoom meeting. You do not need to quit Zoom. You can go ahead and just click into the different window that opens up when you click on that link. And so go ahead and leave Zoom running. We will shut off our cameras so you don't see us watching the video and we will shut off our microphones, but we will all be here. We're all watching the video at the same time. So with nothing else, let's go ahead and move on to the video. Hello. James, I see you're there somewhere. Yes. Welcome everybody back. Thank you for a very informative tour of the Caribbean and those two particular places and their arc of their stories. James is going to be leading our moderation for question and answer this evening. James, I'll give it over to you as soon as you're able. There you go. I'm right here. Thank you. Thank you very much. So I just want to start off by saying I was fascinated by the entire lecture and it really reminded me of a discussion I had Wednesday with so many of my students as we kind of talked about the Atlantic world and Christianity, the Atlantic world and as we tried to complicate the experience of Africans in their relation to conversion. And so it also drew my attention to the way in which the Moravians were fascinated by the drum, but at the same time, they tried to not necessarily outlaw the drum, but the way in which they viewed it somewhat negatively in the same manner in which they tried to convert the Antigans to Christianity but trying to discount their own religions, but also being fascinated by the way in which they Africanized their Christianity. And so the initial question I had and perhaps it's a bit beyond the time scope of the lecture and you mentioned it briefly would be what drew, after emancipation, what drew them to things like Anglicanism or Catholicism in lieu of being Moravian? Because you mentioned it briefly. Well, in terms of, thank you very much for your thoughts. In terms of Tobago, it was more a practical matter when they were drawn to the Roman Catholic Church. What happened is that the funding to the mission had been reduced. So the Black population, the Moravian members were asked to raise funds. And so the emphasis now became how much can you really bring? And so when they found that burdensome, the Roman Catholic Church reemerged and they offered this free church, you don't have to pay fees, you don't have to be raising all these funds and they felt more welcome. So there was in the diaries, these constant complaints from the Moravian missionaries that the Moravians were leaving. So I'm not sure, I don't think it was so much that I'm cultural as it was a financial issue. I can, I'm sorry, I missed that. I don't know if anyone got what you said. Yeah, I couldn't hear it either. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Okay, I was saying how much time do we have? I wanna make sure I get as many questions as we can. We're good for a good 20 or 30 minutes here if we have our questions. All right, I'll go to the first question. Or do I see one? I will say that Dr. Rodney has not had to leave for another event. Dr. Rodney's husband, Reverend Dr. Cedric Rodney, from Guyana. And of course there's, I would assume that many of the points that you explore it with detail and examples from these two islands are actually issues across the Moragmia mission field with African descent people. Yes, and that's true. I think what initially fascinated me about Tobago was the fact that they were one of the first to introduce the drums as part of the Sunday morning worship and it was acceptable. That's only a relatively recent phenomenon in the other conferences. And I wondered why? And then I realized that one, they didn't have this long colonialism period. So they were very free to be. And then number two, the Moravian mission started much later. So there were more Tobagonians were more connected to the African culture. By the time the Moravians came to Antigua, they were already be so Europeanized. It was easier for the mission to take place and to continue to impart the Christian religion. I know from some of my own research, I was quite fascinated by the way in which after emancipation in Jamaica, for example, missionaries took it upon themselves to return back to places like Fernando, Poe in Nigeria and convert other Africans to Christianity. Did the same thing occur for Black Moravians after emancipation? During the 1840s, there was a Batta Africa movement sort of. And that's because there were some indigenous members of the populations who were willing to, who wanted to be in ministry. And it was felt at the time that the best place for them was to go to Africa, rather than be in ministry in the Caribbean. I have part of that in my book, which I talk about, Batta African movement. But of course, you know, later down that came with persons like Marcus Garvey, the Pan-Africanism and that connectivity with Africa. But in terms of the missionaries, they felt that if the indigenous person, the Black person wanted to be a pastor or, you know, priest or leader, the best place for you to go is go to Africa, you know. I understand. I think we may have a question in the chat. So Dr. Donna Branson from Winston-Salem State said she's always heard that Moravians from Old Salem were pacifists and that's some of abolitionists. Was this different from Antigua and Tobago? I am not sure about the abolitionist part because the Moravians never quite got involved with any kind of movement to abolish slavery. In fact, I was reading a dissertation a couple of weeks ago and I do not recall the name of the candidate, but they, not the dissertation, yeah, it was a doctoral student, but the person is making a case that based on two revolts that occurred on the island of St. Croix as well as the island of St. Cates that the Moravians facilitated the whole process of abolition. And quite honestly, I couldn't follow the argument because I mean, for the abolition, for example, for the slavery vote that took place on St. Croix, the Moravians were called upon by the government to stop the enslaved population from rebelling. So the Moravians always took pride and joy wherever on the islands by saying our slaves kept quiet or our slaves did not rebel or our slaves didn't participate. It was like all slaves were part or our members were not part of the protests or anything like that. That was a joy because the whole purpose of the mission was to ensure that you were a good enslaved African. Keep yourself quiet, be nice, don't resist anything, don't question what is happening. Don't question your state of being. Okay. I'll go to another question here. Sally Hirsch said, have Moravians ever lived in Africa? And how did Moravians adjust to a tropical environment when coming from a mountainous area in Europe? If Moravians ever lived in Africa, let me see that. Yeah, I think, yeah, that's what she says. And it's a multi-part question. I can read it again. The third part is, what were some of the specific Christian traits that were visible in Africa coming from Africa? Well, let me try to first answer the first question by saying that the terms of the Moravians in Africa, there were already Moravian missions in Africa and beginning in South Africa. And that was, I think, was 1750 something. I don't know the exact date. Someone else who's more knowledgeable will be able to say exactly when that was. So that started there, but the real growth or our major expansion, I should say, took part much later with the missions in East Africa, primarily in Tanzania and the environs. How did Moravians adjust to tropical environment when coming from mountainous areas in Europe? I think this was quite problematic as it was for several other colonies because adapting to the warm weather very often you were here of Moravians returning to furlough because of ill health. So it was generally a challenge to tropical diseases and so on, often to the toll on the Moravian missionaries. Also, what are some of the specific Christian traits that were visible in Africa coming from Africa? In terms of, there were references, for example, to the making of the cross and certain aspects that might have lingered among the African population, but it's not necessarily clear that it was quite prevalent, as well as some Islamic traits as well. But to say that there were Africa may all adopt, for example, he did some descriptions in his book where he was able to detect that there must have been that kind of connection. And there are several other persons who have made those connections in recent research. Okay. I think Dr. Benson had another question that I think is quite fascinating. And she says that in the US, we have a genre of music created by enslaved African peoples, the Negro spirituals. And do we have remnants in Tobago or Antigua of similar type of music, spirituals? We would not necessarily use the word Negro spirituals, but what I would say is that the, eventually the Caribbean rhythms evolve into sort of indigenous types of music, which were quite unique to each island. But overall, you have the two main genres, I would say Calypso, which is tend to be more Trinidad and Tobagonian and Antigua as well. And then you have the reggae, which tends to be more Jamaican. But by the time we get to the 1960s, we began to add Christian words to the music, to the beats. So we have a number of what we call, the Caribbean sounds, Caribbean rhythms, sounds that reflect who we are. So there's no broad thing as Negro spirituals, but eventually there were our own indigenous sounds that we wrote to beats. And of course, the steel pan was one of the things that really took over most of the Caribbean evolving. Well, there's a debate as to whether it came from Antigua or Tobago, Antigua house credit for it, Trinidad Tobago believe is there in the birthplace. But I can say that widespread, and especially with the Moravian churches, there's definitely that steel pan element. And that rhythm is used extensively the last 20 or 30 years. Okay. 20 years I would say. I was always struck by, I kept thinking about the differences in islands as I was listening to the lecture. And whether or not that would come into focus and your comment made me think of that. Dallin Beck has an interesting question. Was the experiences of Moravians and the local people of St. Thomas, St. John, St. Croix and St. Kitts in the 1740s similar to the experiences the following century in Tobago and Antigua? If it was similar, if the experience, well, I think to some extent there were some similarities except that they were on a different colonial rule, I would say, and the forms of slavery were different. It was said that, you know, the British form of slavery was the harshest of all because the whole point was to extrapolate as much labor without much care about the well-being of the African. In terms of the Moravians, of course the Danish islands, they were out front, they were 1732, 1740, 1750s, but Tobago really got started in the 19th century really. So things were much different. They were more established and settled and had a different kind of approach. So they were more self-determined, I would say, more protective of who they are than those in the Danish West Indies or Barbados Antigua. Larry Tice has a very interesting question. He asks, were the Moravian missionaries on the island subsidized by the government in a similar fashion to the way they were in the US? And if so, what percentage of missions were paid for by a government? Well, I'm not sure that the missionaries themselves were subsidized, but in the terms of the schooling, eventually there was significant subsidy when that was reduced in Tobago as well as Antigua was very difficult for the church to continue. So there was that kind of subsidy, but in terms of the church was really called upon to be autonomous from the 1840s really to sustain this mission and they found that to be extremely difficult. And in a paper I would have done at Moravian College about two years ago, I spent some time tracing the, how the American mission came into help out. And it was a great financial help to the Eastern West Indies and that really started like from the 1950s because in the West Indies we were struggling financially to take care of ourselves. One of the interesting features I found when I was looking through some of the records and maybe someone has some further information and I can look at it even further, but I noted that in Europe, that there was a point where the funding was redirected to the Moravian diaspora in Europe. And because they use that funding to reduce whatever little funds that they had come into the West Indies. So at that point, they say, you know what, you need to raise your own funds, you need to raise your own money, you need to pay your own fees, you need to sell more and so on and so forth. So that subsidy was not there generally, but with the schools. Okay, it always involves money somehow. Someone has to pay for something. Susana Lovejoy has an interesting question in relation to drums. And the question goes, I'm curious about the communication by drums, which is a centuries old practice that long predates the invention of the telegraph. Do blacks and the Caribbean still use the drum to communicate and would they understand what the drummers were communicating in reference to the way in which drums are used as a language or as a call to arms? Yeah, I do remember when I was in school in the 70s, they started to introduce African, reintroduce African culture and to try to explain to us some of the African beats to drumming and so on. I remember learning to drum and what each part meant. But during the time of slavery, they were able to communicate through the drums from estate to estate what they were going to do. Some people have written extensively on that. So if they were going to meet or if they were going to rebel, if they're going to dance, there was a form of that kind of communication. But in terms of what it means to our own culture, I think we had to reteach the meaning of the drums. That's very, very common now throughout the Caribbean. There's a sense of understanding what these ready beats. And I can't tell you what the details are, but they certainly do incite something emotionally within. And it's also very good that they're very much used now as I mentioned being specialized because the rhythm of in and of itself, there's nothing demonic about it as was advocated. So by putting Christian music or whatever you want, you are able to combine a culture, as well as your Christian belief. Wonderful. Looking for some additional questions at the moment. Apologize. Sally Hurst has a question, which is a hot topic. Are reparations studies still going on in the Caribbean islands? Yes, very much so. I happened to be here in Geneva, Switzerland, and it was in December, I think it was November, December. I attended a lecture here in which Professor Hilary Beckles, who is the Pro-Vice Chancellor of the University of the West Indies, he presented a paper on the updating on the reparations. And I found it rather fascinating as a matter of fact, I'm going to reading that as well as some other information as to fully understanding the whole principle of giving back. His theory was that by the time it came to emancipation, there was this compensation given, but it was not given to the post or the formerly enslaved populations. It was given to those who were going to be suffering the economic losses. So the point is, and to use his phrase, you have to, Europe has to combat to the scene of the crime and to see what damage they would have done and how this would have benefited them and to invest in those persons that would have suffered immensely over the period of time. Of course, we talk about the Caribbean, but that's also very much in other colonized places. I know we talk about the underdevelopment of Africa for the building up of Europe. And so the question is, how do you people have been left impoverished? How do you help persons now that your wealth has been built up? It's like, I took out as much as I could. My wealth is built up. I leave you to suffer and to be on your own. And at the same time, there's still so many, what you call it, talks say so many things that are extrapolated from the Caribbean society when they can't even, can barely manage. Wonderful. Larry Tice asks, was the African banjo as popular in the island as it is in the US as a musical instrument? The African. The banjo. Because throughout the U.S. Oh yes, the banjo. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I did read significantly about that. Yes. Okay. Let me look for another question. I would like to ask you a question that is a bit more, maybe theoretical, but through the documents, do you find whether or not they emancipated or enslaved that they're conflicted with their Christianity? Because you spoke a bit about the differences between ethnicity and the directions that that form of Christianity takes, which I was struck by, but are people also equally conflicted by their conversion because they're converted to this white form of religion as they Africanize it? So there is that, there is that continued conflict, I think that struggle as to whether you're practicing an authentic form of Christianity and if you can be yourself. And why I mentioned the fact that even after the Moravians as other Christian denominations would go to church and do the right thing as expected, particularly in our context, by the time they finish, and they're gonna do their own thing. And we always struggle, for example, with things of a cultural nature, things like carnivals and cultural celebrations. Are there things that you can participate in? Whereas the Europeans can go and enjoy whatever the European culture is, whatever the musical genre, there's no real conflict there, but then to participate in other cultural activities has always been a conflict of struggle. But in Tobago, I found that they had this really great festival, this African festival that takes place in July. And what struck me about that is that the Christians participated freely. So there was really no shame. Whereas you'll find that in places where the colonists stay for a long time, we still struggle a lot with, should I still dance, should I move, should I do this, should I, there's still that forever conflict in interpreting the gospel and then applying it to your daily life. Okay. Dr. Benson acts, if you could elaborate on the role of ancestors in daily religious practices. Yeah, I wanted to make the distinction between these superstitious, I will call it nature of ancestral history and other aspects. So why these superstitious, I refer to things like Obey or we use different things. I mean, there's lots of explanation. I've read hundreds of pages trying to explain in terms of the ancestral superstitions from voodoo to, as I said, Obeyism and things like that. But then there are other aspects, I think like the medicinal one, for example, the different sort of habits, the storytelling, the oral traditions. These are things that connected you or hear about the Anansi stories, the different stories of that would have crossed the Atlantic. Different islands had different names, but the stories were so similar. They fought music, they paid to these kinds of things. They traveled on how the experiences that would have occurred. So by just separating and just thinking in all the terms of all of ancestral thing was demonic or not of God and not Christian enough, I think that there was a disconnect from the other aspects that sort of hold you together. Now there remain a significant portion of that superstition even within the Moravian Church and Christian churches. And there is still that struggle today as to have people not go to maybe an Obey person or some other person who can tell them something different. Some people still will trust that. I don't think it is that common within the Christian faith but generally within the community you'll still find persons who consult someone who will be a bearer of or some ancestral religious leader. And that's why in some places either the Afro-Caribbean religious expressions have evolved because it connected that kind of worship. As I mentioned the spiritual baptism, you have like Pokemonia and Jamaica, Shangri-ism in Grenada and Rastafarianism which is very common, which is very well known. As practices that connect the ancestral worship with the Caribbean person. You go to another question briefly. It went away. Sally Hearst asks, how are reparations for damages weight with the technological, educational, religious and cultural developments that Europeans, Americans and Caribbean such as yourself have given throughout history, throughout this history? Can you repeat that? And we might need you to find it. Yeah, it's down. So how are reparations for damages weight with the technological, educational and religious and other cultural developments that Europeans, Americans and Caribbean have given throughout history? We might have to think about that. Yeah. I'm not, is that a sure? I found it's not a question, but what I would say is that the reparations are not only in terms of giving money but providing resources to individuals to be able to excel and to find ways to invest in businesses and so on and so forth. I don't know if that is the answer. That's, I don't know if you can interpret the question for me. Yeah, I was thinking about that myself and I think it might be in relation to what reparations are. I think sometimes people think about it if it is monetary or if it's not monetary and that might be some of the direction. But I don't wanna read too deeply into it if it's not fully what Sally was meaning to say. Right, so I mean, the thinking is that it's not just a monetary thing. Just not look at the price and say, okay, give two million dollars but have ongoing investments and ongoing interest. Don't just, as I mentioned before, don't just leave the scene of crime but come back and figure out how can I get persons from here to there? And this becomes particularly challenging. I find now living in Europe and the whole question of migration because it's like you go into some place in the world it's colonized, people have been displaced, people have been impoverished and then those persons are now coming back to the colonists, they're migrating back, because you've come and you've taken, I'm coming back to see, this is my simplicity of saying is I'm coming back to see what I can get to those because then that becomes a real major conflict in terms of the question of immigration and migration and particularly in Europe. Okay, yeah, Sally elaborated a bit more and she was referencing not just monetary but the complexity of cultures that receive interaction in exchange for one another. So I think talking about migration you kind of alluded to it, at least a bit of my thinking and kind of complicated it. Right, right. We have a question from, it bounced. I was saying that there was a settlement in Britain recently someone might probably remember, I think it was the Bush, the, what's the name? The Vinrush, a sort of settlement given to those persons who had benefited from coming but then they were, you probably know more about that James. They were taken away, Vinrush I think it was. When was was the boat in like 47 when people from Jamaica and Barbados landed in London? And that's what comes to my mind. It might be related to that. I don't know if it was a settlement connected to it but I know that was the boat. Yes, there was a settlement eventually given but I think that the general conversation ties into that as to whether you should give a monetary settlement or if you should go back and invest so that persons can have an equal chance to be. That's true. I think we have time for one more question and I'm gonna take the question from Carolyn Hosmyth and she says, from this history of Moravianism in the mission fields, how does that translate today into the future with the fact that the worldwide Moravian Church of the 21st century's membership is primarily made of black and brown people with a minority of white and European members and institutions. That's a very difficult question but I do know that there was a working paper that came out about a year or two ago in which this became a reflection and there is current conversation as to rebranding. As a minister rebranding trying to figure out for example, you talk about the Asian unity and then you come up and you talk about the renewed Moravian Church and the argument is that we need to find another term to address this phase of Moravianism that we're in. When I did that research a few years ago in terms of vision for mission and that was about 22 years ago, I had estimated at that time that the Africans had been about 80% of the Moravian population. I mean, that has probably be realistically about 90% probably right now, but at the same time, I mean the financial support of the Moravian Church is still heavily dependent on the European and American missions. So there's that sort of balance you have to kind of strike and it's a matter for conversation, particularly as we have like sinners and we have this one person, one vote and we have persons you can have Africans making up all the decisions and I guess whatever thoughts that they may have, those are the thoughts that will probably go forward in terms of the Moravian Church. So and I use African here as they because sometimes the thoughts are sometimes different I suppose our thoughts are not always the same or you know, although we have some very strong similarities and I guess because we were taken up, often said in the past for those of us who are from the Caribbean as well as the diasporas you see in general, you find yourself in that kind of awkward position because some Africans may not think of you as African enough and then you're in another part of the world and the Europeans came and sometimes say to you well, you're not good enough, so where do you fit in? So that's the struggle that the Caribbean person of say that previously has had. I mean, here in Switzerland and I meet persons with my collars, a black person, you know, they will ask me so where are you from? Are you African American? Are you African from European African or Caribbean African or are you African African? Are you African African? It's about what does it mean to be African African? So there's that real emphasis. I'm an African, oh, I am African African. So you're a part African because you know, you're the only Caribbean and you know, you're African American, you're not quite African. Are you? European African, you're not quite African. So there's still that hierarchy structure within the African community. It's about that time and I just want to thank you, Reverend Dr. Cured Roberts for a fascinating lecture and then this entertaining and very informative discussion afterwards on a variety of topics. James, you did a fabulous job tonight. Thank you, Cynthia. We're so grateful for the support of Winston-Salem State University in this conference. I want to remind everyone that we have another morning of programming for you that you can participate with. Some of you may have already gotten an email tonight on some of our materials early on. Tomorrow's lecture started at nine, it's at 10. I don't think there's a change in your link. Just click on it, but we'll be gathering at 10 o'clock to hear John Sensbach and the academics and scholars who've been working in the mornings on papers. And then our final keynote lecture will be at, what time is it tomorrow, 1130? I think it was immediately after the Sensbach group, but we'll be over by about one o'clock tomorrow and that will be from Professor Catherine Fahl who will give our final keynote lecture on Moravian memoirs. From all of us here in Winston-Salem and Switzerland, good night. Good night. Thank you so much, Winnell. Yes, thank you too. Thank you. Good morning to you, by the way, Winnell. Your six hours are five a.m., so... Thank you, okay, good morning. Good morning and time for breakfast, right? Yes, it is, okay, take care. Okay, take care. Thank you, thank you.