 Ffrodymu y cyfmogosol, wrth gwerthwyr anon ni'n rhaid iddiw yn 19 y bydd yn 2014 o gyfnog gwaith, Fengyrchu ac Rydym Cymru, rwy'n ôl eich clywed dyma a bod gwneud rydym ni i ymrithio wrth rangesiwg a gael llymwysol, oes o heb môl yn fynd i ddechrau gwneud yn ullwg. Yr ystafell y圣 dda'u cymru, roeddwn i'n gŷn nhw'n 5 a 6 pan fofioedd. Aru. Aru. The item 2 on the agenda, we have four pieces of subordinate legislation to consider this morning. Four affirmative instruments relating to the land registration Act 2012, these are the land register of Scotland, a rate of interest on compensation regulations 2014 and draft, the registers of Scotland fees order 2014 and draft, the registers of Scotland Information and Access Order 2014 in draft and the Land Registration and Settlers Scotland Act 2012, incidental, consequential and transitional order 2014 in draft. To Edas, with our consideration, I'd like to welcome Fergus Ewing, Minister for Energy, Enterprise and Tourism, who's joined this morning by Kirsten Siminay Lefebre, who's listed our Scottish Government Legal Directorate, Hugh Welsh, who's Head of Data and Chris Care, Head of Legal Policy and Legislation, both from Registers of Scotland. Welcome to you all. Minister, would you like to say something to introduce these instruments? Yes, thank you, convener. I'm pleased to have been invited by the committee to speak to these four instruments. They form part of a suite of subordinate legislation that needs to be enforced for the designated day for the Land Registration Scotland Act 2012, and last month I was pleased to make the order setting out the designated day for eighth of December this year. On that day, the new scheme of land registration provided for in the 2012 Act will come into force, and this will bring into effect a fairer and more efficient system of land registration for the people of Scotland. The instruments the committee are considering today will provide further practical details on what requires to be in place to ensure the smooth introduction of that new scheme of land registration. One key concept of the 2012 Act is that the land register continues to provide a state guarantee of title. Therefore, the keeper of the Registers of Scotland will pay compensation to parties who have suffered loss. The Land Register of Scotland Rate of Interest and Compensation Regulations 2014 provides for the interest rate applied to those payments of compensation made by the keeper. Its purpose is to put the person who incurred the loss in the same financial position that he or she would have been had the loss not occurred. The Government considers that the rate should be suitably flexible to respond to changing market conditions, and therefore we propose to set the rate at 1% above the Bank of England base rate. The Registers of Scotland Information and Access Order 2014 makes provision about how information is made available with the keeper and access to the keeper's registers. Public access to the registers is one of the overarching principles of registration in Scotland. The key provisions are those in article four that provide for how public access is given to the keeper's registers. Access can be at the customer services centres based in Merlebank House in Edinburgh and Hanover House in Glasgow where members of the public are assisted by the keeper's staff to search the registers. Members of the public can also make requests by letter, by email or through the Registers of Scotland website. These provisions help ensure clear procedures for public access to the information from the keeper's registers. The order provides for the keeper to issue plain copies of documents recorded or registered in the keeper's registers or parts of those registers such as the title sheet in the land register. This convener provides the public with a cheaper alternative to a formal extract with evidential value. Article three provides that in relation to the land register the keeper will only issue extracts or plain copies showing one cadastral unit to ensure accuracy. The Land Registration Scotland 212 incidental consequential and transitional order 214 is mainly technical in nature and provides amendments to the 2012 act in addition to some consequential amendments to other legislation. As the amendments are technical with your permission I would not propose to go through all of the details in this statement but would be happy to take questions or more accurately my officials will be happy to take questions there on. They include transitional arrangements on how the common parts of titles on the land register can be shown prior to closing the general register of seasons. The register of Scotland fees order 2014 the last in the suite this morning convener is the first fees order to be made under the powers provided in the 212 act. The order consolidates in one order all of the main statutory fees charged by registers of Scotland including those for the crofting register and the register of community interests in land. It also introduces fees for the new products and services resulting from the 212 act such as advanced notices and caveats. One key policy consideration in developing this order was no increase in the fees that the keeper charges for registering and recording deeds and documents. The level of fees also takes into account the need for the keeper to maintain financial reserves to pay compensation linked to the state guarantee provided for by the land register, provide a contingency fund for any downturn in the property market, fund the completion of the land register and provide investment in IT services. The order retains a fee for rejecting applications but to help customers adapt to the changes resulting from the 212 act it provides for a two calendar month period after the designated day before the rejection fee commences. This will provide solicitors with time to master the revised requirements for registration in the land register. The order maintains the majority of fees at 2010 levels and indeed are at a similar level to that set in 1995 and upholds the principles of transparency, value for money and equality for citizens. The keeper maintains her commitment to a biennial fee review with the next review due to begin in 2015. In conclusion, before I formally move the motions recommending the orders, I'd be happy to, with my colleagues, to answer any questions that you and your members may have. Thank you minister for that introduction. I'm happy to see many members of any questions I want to pursue with the minister. Alison Johnston. Thank you. The land reform review group's view is that major progress is still required on land registration and I wonder if any of the instruments here will help to achieve completion of the land register within 10 years. The orders today will enable the smooth operation of the running of the register of saizians in the land register of Scotland and of course it is I think useful to remind ourselves convener that the main, the principal and the most practical function of the register is to provide a means for transactions to be carried out both house sales and purchase and also commercial transactions and to be carried out in such a way that ensures that there is a guaranteed title, security of title, certainty of title and therefore security and confidence of doing business in Scotland. That is its primary function and I think it's very important that we bear that in mind. To answer the question that is put, the land reform group has identified a potential measure which we are committed to considering and we are also bringing forward a consultation paper to consider the issues of beneficial ownership and to consult all of those who have an interest there and then. I think this committee before I was on the committee made it clear that they supported better access to information because obviously public access to who owns Scotland is really important. Can you update on any progress that's been made on an online search facility open to the public? How accessible will this information be to the man in the street who might just be interested? I think that there is transparency as I said in the statement that transparency of access both on the website by email and also at the offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh as I stated earlier in this meeting. The land register does of course show the owner of the property. This could be an individual or corporate entity and in some cases such as property owned and trust or by companies it doesn't reveal the beneficial ownership of that property i.e. the beneficiaries of the trust or the shareholders of the company but the concept of beneficial ownership as we discussed during the passage of the bill convener is unknown in Scots law outside of the law of trusts, tax and insolvency law and in particular it's not traditionally recognised in Scottish property law. So therefore that's one of the reasons why we feel it's appropriate to consult in these matters. I think Mr Welsh wants to share some further information with your permission convener to respond to Alison Johnson's question if you may. Yes the public at the moment there is access to a system in various means sometimes in person sometimes by email and we've got a registered direct system where it's mainly business to business but members of the public can access that if required. Most industries define it more helpful for us to share the information with them for a win-off search particularly if the register of ceasings it takes a bit of technology and we have expertise to translate them so we are working along them lines. Can I ask one more question convener does the government have a planned program to register public land that is not yet on the land registry? Well the the keeper and myself have for for some considerable time been encouraging the public sector land owners especially the very large owners including for example the Forestry Commission to register land to do so voluntarily and there has been considerable progress made towards achieving that objective. Plainly with the the desire that a policy objective of working towards a target of completion of 10 years then there is a great deal of land in public ownership that needs to be registered. A particular thought and encouragement has been given to secure that objective. Plainly it's an enormous task it has resource implications because the legal work involved the preparation of plans in some cases the question of potential issues that may arise in the course of those voluntary registrations such as disputes will be consumptive of time and therefore I think as you will in particular understand convener from your legal days these are matters that we are considering very carefully indeed we're considering them currently and we're considering them together with the main public sector bodies involved for example the Forestry Commission but the desire is to complete the register within 10 years and that means that we would expect the public sector to show a lead in that regard. Thank you. Thank you. Can I just ask a follow-up to Alison Johnson's penultimate question about beneficial ownership because I remember during the passage of the bill minister you were very robust in your view that identifying beneficial ownership on the register would be a very cumbersome and expensive process and if it could be achieved at all. I mean have you changed your mind on that because it does sound like the Scottish Government is perhaps soft in its position a little? Well no the amendments which were brought forward as we as I recall and during stages two and three of the bill were designed to enable the land register to disclose beneficial ownership of land but we were of the view at that time and I may characteristically perhaps have expressed my views in robust terms that the proposed amendments would not have been workable in practice and would place an unnecessary burden on the applicants and keep her moreover the potential impacts of the amendments hadn't been assessed or considered not least because they hadn't been consulted upon and for those variety of reasons it appeared to us that they weren't amendments which commended themselves at that stage but plainly we do desire to see if there are any other matters that we can do and to approach this with an open mind and that is why we're having a consultation which I think has been welcomed by various groups that have been exercised for this matter pursuing these policy issues for a long time so we are consulting and I expect that we will be back in this place before not very long discussing the the upshot of that of that consultation up chick brother yes good morning and mr welsh I wonder one of the the concerns uh any expressed in in when we were considering the the bill was the whole it system and there's lack of use and lack of friendliness what has changed to encourage as a secretary to Alison Johnson's question to encourage people to have ease of accessibility and how robust I think it's a new IT system that has now been is being implemented it has been implemented I just wonder if you could update us on that at the moment the main access for your technology to systems is registered direct and that is well used there's a million searches per year as explained for actual members of public to come in they can actually ask us by email electronically can request or it can appear and we'll give them expert advice at the moment the land registration act itself we're implementing that at the moment and we're making the required changes to the technology to enable the act to take place so there's no major changes in the moment so I'm wrong in the assumption that the previous IT system had been either scrapped or it's still being still being used is that right no we're just working away through the actual process of the system adding to what we've got at the moment and we're continually viewing an IT as part of the whole process of our free reviews going forward thank you can I ask a question about the fees order minister because I would call it as you will when we dealt with the bill an issue was identified that at that stage the registers had quite substantial reserves that have been built up over over a period of time when the level of transactions was high do you happen to know or perhaps your officials know what the level of reserves within registers of Scotland currently sits at well I don't have that information in front of me and I have been considering this matter but I don't have this particular information in front of me and I think this is subject to an internal exchange at the moment about you know the the level of appropriate reserves and the discussion is taking place there on end plainly in my opening statement I referred to the number of matters for which allowance must be made and these include you know assessing what claims what some must be set aside for potential claims and I must say the keeper's record and claims has been very very good I mean the the failure rate and part of the keeper is is extraordinarily low as I think is known but also there needs to be consideration given to the other matters I mentioned including if there's a drop in the property market and secondly the cost of IT and adapting the systems to be able to fulfil the functions that's set out in the 212 Act so all of these things involve as I think members will appreciate an exercise in judgement as to what the of some is appropriate this is a this is an art not a science and each matter must be considered very carefully and therefore that's why it's under considered at the moment at the moment I mean I can say a convener as I've reminded myself during a during speaking to you that the the record of the most recent statistics available showing the volume of transactions show a very positive picture indeed a rise in house sales and purchase and a thumping rise which I think from memory was 55% in the volume of registrations of commercial property transactions and therefore it does seem to be the case that the the most recent statistics available which I think were for the last year show a rise in the number of property transactions that in turn means that there's a more robust financial situation for the keeper if that property market continues to be robust and indeed growing then consequently by definition the need to maintain substantial reserves reduces but these are always a matter of judgments and perhaps if I may convener after I've had a process of discussion with the keeper which may take some a few weeks at least perhaps slightly longer I can come back to the the committee and give you a more detailed and considered answer setting out the both the level of reserves and perhaps a short statement of the criteria applied in reaching that decision so that this matter is is as we like to be in the Scottish Government and open book that would be very helpful minister thank you for that I mean I think you're absolutely right to identify that you know after a period of of slow movement in the property market both domestic and commercial appears that there's been a substantial recovery income therefore will be increasing as well of course will be activity I mean I remember when we dealt with the bill there was an issue about I think at that stage there was a a scheme of voluntary redundancy a register of Scotland and people were being encouraged to leave are we now in a recruitment phase that registers or or the register of field there's enough capacity within the current workforce to deal with the increased volume of transactions moment the intakes of risen 9% in the last year and we dealt with for registration point of view for land registration with 280,000 applications see we're doing them quicker than ever before 50% of all applications are now done within five days in terms of staff we have reduced our numbers over a recent period I think from a high of around 1400 down to 900 at the moment I think when the last year we did slightly increased mainly best list areas such as IT and sort of legal areas at the moment we're confident of going forward and dealing with the land registration act and also any future enhancement the actual triggers at the moment from the land registration act will generate an extra 8,000 applications per year of first registrations so that's on top of the 27,000 we dealt with last year and we're confident of doing that within the current yes staff as well thank you thank you convener you mentioned minister that some of the challenges for public sector organisations in a day say big landowners across the country in terms of registering titles and surveying them and so on and appreciate that this may also present a challenge for registers of Scotland but do you feel that harnessing this 21st century technology that potential as well as transparency ease of access and so on offers a very big prize of efficiency to all who are concerned with convincing and property in scotland yes I do I think the without a shadow without the 212 act will help smooth the process make it more efficient make it easier to to operate and assist the smooth running of commercial and domestic transactions in scotland and that must be a good thing I mean this is really for the anorax naming myself and the convener but I mean it is much much easier and a much less time consuming task to carry out a house purchase and sale conveyance especially acting for the purchaser when the property is in the land register for the for the very reason that the sazing register there is not necessarily a map or a plan deeds can be written in handwriting sometimes not always scutable and the whole process takes a long long time it's very repetitive it's very old fashioned and of course the cost is very often borne by the for the public the the client and so the land register is a much simpler process it's map based it's based on the ordnance survey map and you can get a land certificate which shows you the plan and all the conditions and title the extent of the title the name of the owner the the consideration paid and it's also very useful for people who are buying houses to see what the price was paid for the houses next door and to give an easy idea of of how to have if you like you know house moving with tear without tears or as few tears as possible so generally the land register is good news and the 212 act makes a number of specific changes which will further are designed substantially further to improve that process Mr McKenzie mentioned the large landowners I should make it clear convener that I'm very keen to make sure that we engage fully and appropriately with the large landowners and I've arranged to meet with Scottish land and estates in the next couple of weeks first here and then at Moai Game Fair in the 1st of August to have discussions the keeper will be fully involved in those discussions and the last point I make is that at the moment with the level of maximum fees you know I think it's very it's a way of sensible and proven decision for landowners to to proceed with a voluntary registration in many cases and of course by doing that it will I help I generate to work for the legal profession and they're just coming out of a time when many young convening lawyers have been laid off so I'm very much hoping that the combined effect of the policy changes that we are proposing as well as the work that we've already done will encourage a large landowners to consider the voluntary registration of their estates and working in positively and in voluntary cooperation with them to that purpose and one of the benefits will be I think to stimulate a little bit of of employment or re-employment within the legal profession especially of young lawyers who may have been the casualties of the recession I know other questions we can move on to the next item on the agenda item three and minister I would invite you if you would to formally move the four instruments that are before it only moved thank you do any members wish to speak or comment on these instruments no okay in that case um do we talk together if members are content to take these together yeah okay in that case the question is that we agree to motions s4m10302 s4m10303 s4m10304 s4m10305 are we agreed we are all agreed thank you very much these motions have been passed by the committee are members content that the convener and clerk would use a short factual report of the committee's decisions and arranged to have that published yes thank you very much at this point we will suspend briefly to allow the minister and officials to leave thank you minister for attending right if we can reconvene item four on the agenda is another piece of subordinate legislation in this case a negative instrument the land register rules etc scotland regulations 2014 ssi 2014 slash 150 do any members have any issues that they would like to raise in connection with us okay if not are we happy simply to note the instrument yes okay thank you very much and at this point we will move into privatisation thank you