 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go Mind pump with your hosts Sal DiStefano Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews Dude, Dr. Rusio one of one of my favorite people. I'm so glad we connected with him a while ago He's like our our resident gut health expert buffed good-looking Doctor guy, right? He's also become a really good friend man for sure I mean we hit it off the very first time that we hung out down in paleo way back when right the two years ago Two or three years ago was now he's a really it's been maybe three. Yeah, he's a really good guy and What I like about dr. Rusio is he's not an alarmist, you know, I mean he's very calculated with what he says He reminds me of the way he answered and this is what really connected all of us Right was when I'd ask him a question the way he'd answer it reminds me of how we answer a question when somebody the first Example someone says Adam. What's the best exercise to build your chest? Like you will not get like a oh incline or do these or do that from me I'm gonna say because we know that it depends right depends on so many different variables and and yeah Actually a chest fly could be possibly the best thing you for your chest Or it could be the worst thing for you to do to grow your chest depends on a lot of different factors And so when he talks about the gut, I really I really appreciate that part of him because it is such It's so complex and there are so many things so many variables and there's an individual and there's a lot of unknown still And so when he explains it really I really helps me I know and sometimes I'm sure you guys will hear in this episode. He does get pretty deep and You know, he tends to go like with Sal where they get in the weeds for a little bit on some topics realize that It's not about only trainers that are listening to this podcast But I think it's one that you should listen to multiple times I think his book that we talk about that's the thing get his book his book is written for the average person to be able to understand read through and Work on themselves and that's the thing we talked a lot about in this podcast is just how individual Somebody's gut can be and what may work for one person may not work for another person His book goes into this and it actually walks you through step-by-step It's it's one that I always recommend to people who ask me Questions on gut health the name of the book is healthy gut healthy you You can go to dr. Ruscio. That's dr Us cio.com forward slash get gut book or you can just buy it on Amazon I think we'll put a link in the show notes and he also has a podcast dr. Ruscio radio and He talks a lot about gut health, of course, but other things that pertain to health because he's also he's got a great Great Instagram page and he plugs it in the episode. We asked him where to find him or I think Sal asked him What exactly your Instagram was and it's dr. Ruscio's last names are you as cio? So that's his Instagram handle and then this saw this episode was actually a perfect, right? We have a gut health specialist. I'm so happy. He likes this come the kombucha that we're working with. Yeah Yes, this episode is sponsored by the brew doctor and our official kombucha of mine pump Yes, yes, yes very low in sugar. It's a probiotic beverage is if you you've heard us talk about kombucha in the past Also, I do want to mention this month if you enroll in any maps bundle That is bundles are where we take two or more maps programs put them together and discount them You will get the the nutrition guide for free the the intuitive nutrition guide for free And you'll get the intermittent fasting guide for free and you can find those all at mine pump media calm I posted to I've had a lot of people ask me because I did have posted the kombucha on my Insta story And people are asking where to get this you can guys can find it at Whole Foods Trader Joe's New Seasons Kroger Sprouts most Costco's will have it so you can it's one of the more popular kombucha is out there That's right. So without any further ado here. We are talking to dr. Michael Ruscio When you were writing this who did you have in mind like when you were writing it now? Obviously because it's a gut health book that there's it's for everybody, but right when you are putting it together Who did you think like okay? This is gonna be who's gonna be purchasing and reading this the most What are you thinking? You know, I pictured patients in my clinic, right people who were motivated to improve their gut health Not necessarily someone who's never even heard of a probiotic, right? Because I wanted to give them something to do after you did the first two or three things that stereotypically come to mind when you think gut health Which would be like a patient in my clinic. Yeah, I improved my diet. I'm still floundering. I took a probiotic I'm still floundering and I hear all the questions that patients ask patients come in they're scared death of gluten I read You know my mother had Hashimoto's and I've read that if you have a family history of auto immunity You could never have one bite of gluten So I haven't been having any gluten and this person is now underweight, right there They've lost like 15 pounds. You shouldn't have lost because they're not eating enough food They're super fearful and they just come in with all this unnecessary Indoctrinated baggage and confusion You know, I read about paleo. I read about autoimmune paleo. I read about low-fod map I read that you shouldn't take probiotics if you have sebo, but I think I have sebo But then I read the breath testing is inaccurate Rather do a year and it's and they come in and they're just being crippled by fear and questions and all the what abouts What about this? What about that? So I want to write them a book that would teach them the important information They needed to know and then walk them through. Okay. Now. What do we do with all that? Mm-hmm not not let's do everything at once But where do we start then we reevaluate and then where do we go from there? just how Individual is it when you're working with someone with the with for further gut health in other words, you know There's a lot of general information that's out there and to improve your gut health But I feel like it's like anything else where you know, we know that there's certain exercises for example that are good for you But that doesn't mean you have a good program, right? It doesn't mean that that program will work for you And it doesn't mean it will work for you all the time How true is that for people's gut health? It's very true Yeah, but yeah, I think there's two ways to look at this. It's good to have a In algorithm to walk people through and the algorithm Almost stays the same because an algorithm is kind of like a changing formula, right? So you have a set algorithm But then how you navigate the algorithm depends on the individual's response, right? So the algorithm is painstakingly crafted from looking at the medical literature and trying to identify Here are the treatments that are I under the umbrella of what I would organize first meaning the least expensive the least invasive and the most effective so diet would fall into that camp and You start people with the diets that are the most effective and you even organize the couple dietary trials in Order of the diet. That's the simplest to implement and will be effective for the most people Firstly and then if that doesn't help them you tweak the diet So you may start with paleo and if paleo doesn't work you may go to low FODMAP. So the you know the Big picture is somewhat. I guess you could say pre-programmed But not everyone is going to go through the same program as everybody else because you build into the process this very personalized series of checkpoints Go on the paleo diet for two weeks. Are you feeling clearly improved or not? If yes, you know continue through to maintenance if no We'll tweak now to low FODMAP and then you go into the probiotic protocol and it's the same kind of thing You know we try the few available probiotics if that provides relief Then we go right into maintenance if it doesn't provide relief we build on that further So it's a it's a combination of using the wonder of all this medical literature that we have and then some Common sense in terms of how you implement that and and that's really a key aspect Because I've observed that people tend to go right to the most invasive most exotic treatments Everyone thinks that they need to for example using gluten-free dieting as an example People think that if they have a problem with gluten they have to eat like they have celiac But that's like saying if you if you have a blood sugar of 103 you have to eat like you're an end-stage Diabetic right just doesn't you don't have to go to that level of rigor if you want to fine Right if you want to know I'm not gonna say that you shouldn't but for a lot of people the extra effort it takes to go from eating a gluten reduced diet to a fully 100% gluten-free diet there's a big chasm there of effort and mental anguish and and social stress So it's it's important to understand some of that nuance in terms of okay Do you have to go all the way to full-blown eating like you're celiac and never having any gluten or? Can you get away with some from time to time? I'm not saying make it a staple, but if you're out with friends And you want to have a beer or a slice of pizza you can potentially have that I like what you said you sound a lot like somebody who's worked with a lot of people and the reason Why I'm saying that is as trainers When people ask us what's the most effective workout or what's the you know? What should I do to lose weight or whatever? We know that there's that other component of Is this individual going to adhere to this advice? Does it work with their lifestyle and everybody's a little bit different whereas people who have no experience working with other people? Yeah, we'll say something like you know, here's your work Exactly or this is what the research says is best right like this is what's best This is what they've studied do this without taking into account Yeah, all the other variables all the other variables and so I really like the way you're talking I have to ask you because I follow Some of the gut health literature that's coming out. I like to read about it quite a bit I've had my own issues in the past and it seems like the past Few years the the research has exploded or at least the results of a lot of research is exploding And it's becoming more and more Accepted mainstream and they're finding now gut health connected to I mean everything though your your moods even You've been doing this for a long time. How long have you been practicing in this in this particular special specialty almost eight years So eight years ago Nobody was really talking about this kind of stuff Or at least I don't know the word less so much much less So I would have been very difficult to find a specialist the gut health specialist eight years ago and only yeah Outside of of course of gastroenterologists, but someone like myself who's in the integrative Medicine camp. Yes. Uh, yeah, there was much less specialization and I think that's because You're seeing the field really grow where now there's so much information that we in my opinion need to be specializing to a degree Even with the natural therapies and the natural therapies all kind of emanate from this Philosophical trunk if you will of diet and lifestyle, right? So there's always going to be that commonality but then when you get into someone who goes deep into Let's say Lyme disease Compared to or mass activation syndrome compared to someone in gut health That's where understanding the nuance is really important and don't get me wrong A natural let's just say general practitioner for lack of a better term the equivalent of a natural general practitioner They'll get you pretty far, right? But there's always going to be those cases where The gp the natural gp doesn't have in their toolkit what is needed to ameliorate the problem of the person presenting So yes, we're there's more that we're learning. So we're having to Specialize and I think that's where natural medicine Is going to continue to go is into this this realm of somewhat specialization And that's exciting But the question I was going to ask you is what made you decide to go eight years ago There wasn't a whole lot of people doing what you're doing right? Why'd you choose that? Why'd you go in that direction? Well, firstly, there was my experience and we talked about this last time I was on but in college I went from feeling great to feeling pretty terrible and it turned out that I had a parasite that was causing that problem, but Before I found that out. I went on the internet. I read about all my symptoms. I thought I had low testosterone I thought I had a low thyroid. I thought I had heavy metal toxicity I thought I had adrenal fatigue And so I did what I see a lot of people doing another reason why I wrote the book in the fashion That I did was try to save people from putting the cart before the horse so to speak And I spun my wheels with all these self diagnoses and self treatments And it wasn't until I fixed my gut that I really saw improvement And I carried that forward with me and in practice I've kept doing more of what has worked the best and out of all the things I've looked into I've done Training in Lyme. I've done training in heavy metal detox I've done training in thyroid the the two things that produce the most consistent and market improvements in patients are Optimizing their digestive health there. There are other things that can be helpful definitely But the most impactful by far and away in my mind Was the therapies that were directed at gut health and now we're seeing to your earlier point All these studies pouring in showing that probiotics can help reduce brain fog and Dietary changes can help reduce immune activation and Fixing one's gut can help with thyroid autoimmunity. I mean, there's a litany of examples that we could cite and Yeah, it's exciting to see the interest and this boom in research going in the direction that I'm positioned And I feel really fortunate to be there but in direct answer to your question The gut therapies were just the most effective What do you what do you think our guts are worse today than they were 10 and 20 and 30 years ago? That seems like it's going crazy. I think our our general health is on a decline right and you know, it's It's tough because I don't want to pay an overly You know a pessimistic picture, but it does seem that as we've changed Our environment to be more hygienic and experienced some of the benefits that come because of that reduced infantile death and prolonged lifespan As we've come farther away from some of these dirt and germs and in a more Ancestral or hunter-gatherer type lifestyle There's been a biological trade-off and the the con of that trade-off is we're seeing more inflammatory And immune diseases that that are a byproduct of that So it's great when we can save a child through an emergency cesarean birth But that does increase their probability of inflammatory And immune conditions later in their life because they miss out on that inoculation of bacteria as they pass through the vaginal canal So I don't want to paint it as a criticism of medicine or the western lifestyle You know, we're making a decision and and there's a pro and con We have to calculate as part of speaking of pros and cons talk a little bit more on that controversial topic You just went over right there with c-sections because I see that A lot and I just had a good friend of mine that had it in You know, what what do you say to somebody who's considering even potentially having a c-section? Well, this is getting outside of my area of specialty So I don't want to speak too far away from the body of literature that i'm familiar with but I did Recently interview a nurse midwife on my podcast and and she made a pretty compelling case for The fact that c-sections may be a bit overly done right and and I think there's a case there would be made now I choose my language very carefully. That's why I said emergency c-section That's really where you're contending with potentially death and so There's in my mind very little of an argument you can make against an emergency c-section A you know proactive or elected c-section There's nuance there that i'm not familiar with all the details regarding But this midwife didn't make the case that it it seems that they're being overly done And now there may be a pullback from doing it that much or another method is they're doing vaginal swabs now And then coating the children in the mother's vaginal bacteria So that may be a way to to counteract that but I do think there's evidence that supports. They're being done in excess Yeah, uh from what I've read on that whole process. It's the process of coming in to the hospital Being put on pitocin which makes the Birthing process more painful then they give you an epidural because it's more painful But now you have to be on your back Which makes birthing more more difficult and then boom c-section becomes more I think in some hospitals like half Yeah, it's a it's a cascade that seems to be initiated when you go to the hospital Whereas working with a dual or a midwife You don't start as quickly down that cascade of of epidurals and numbing agents and being restricted to bed rest and And she also makes this this gal that I interviewed also made a good point that oftentimes People aren't given education ahead of time So they go into the hospital and they're thinking that all these things are mandatory and they don't understand that Nothing bad may happen if I don't elect to do this It's just the way that they do it But because you're in a hospital and there's people buzzing in and out and bells going off You're in a very D leveraged and kind of fearful position So this leads me to a question where I've read that we inherit quite a bit of our Microbiome fingerprint if you will from our mothers. Oh, yeah So my question is you're talking about the the you know, how Western societies in particular hyper clean and we may be Reaping some of the benefits, but also some of the unintended Consequences of that and they call it the what is it the clean hypothesis or something like that? There's a hygiene hypothesis All the old friends. It's also known as yeah, so things are so clean and now we're getting auto immune issues And we're getting gut issues as a result of our immune systems not being exposed to certain things Is it but it seems like it's getting worse faster. Is this because Mothers pass on their microbiome and because now mothers have Maybe less diversity that it's just compounding. It seems a compound from generation to generation But it's not the only factor, right? There's there's pollution. There's food quality. There's stress. There's our more Isolated type lifestyle that we're living, right? So I mean, I think it's multifactorial And if you're speaking about the the insult on the microbiome specifically That also seems to be getting worse right because there used to be more farmers and more contact with farm I was just home visiting my family in Massachusetts And I took my niece and nephew for a walk around the block and there was one point where There's this cul-de-sac and at the end of that cul-de-sac there used to be all these woods now It's all houses right and so the the natural environment where we derive some of these bacteria That have an impact on our microbiota and our immune systems Are are drying up. So it's not only compounding biologically, but I think it's also compounding Environmentally What role do you know modern inventions like glyphosates that are sprayed on GMOs? Like what role do you think that plays in some of that stuff? Do you tell patients to avoid GMO foods? Does it make a big difference? Well, so you ask a good question This is something I talk about in the book to try to give people an answer to this question because Sometimes people are are struggling for inadequate solution to the kind of gory and not of do I start first with organic? Or would I be better off having an organic tv dinner or fresh vegetables that are non organic sure right and so The first thing I recommend people do is eat the right foods Rather rather than worrying about it being organic. I'd rather you eat fresh and foods that are For lack of a better term in alignment with the paleo diet or whatever diet plan We chose for them as they're going through the diet protocol aspect of the book whole foods whole whole foods First that are compliant with the diet plan that you're going to be on Then second would be organic foods now in an ideal world to your earlier point We would do all of them right but experience teaches us that not everyone has the resources financially, yeah, financially or mentally or logistically to implement everything at once You know throughout all your teflon get a water filter get an air filter all organic Pasha pasha raised that's a tall order to go from if you're just trying to Stop eating as much bread and eat more vegetables fish fast food twice a day for the last 10 years, right exactly So we do lay out a hierarchy, but first you want to have whole foods Then after that you can opt for either organic or locally grown and I look at those on a similar kind of footing So if you can only invest in one thing I would get the right foods fresh whole foods Worry about organic and pasha raised and all those things later as you Feel like okay now. I have these dietary changes down. They feel doable. They're somewhat habituated now You know what next challenge would I like to try to integrate now that being said You do notice that glyphosates have an effect on people's guts. Is that are you seeing that? I mean this is based off your experience, right? It's really hard to say because When do I have someone coming in saying I had this wheat that's been sprayed with like Like a phosphate compared to this one that hasn't and I was attempting for a little while there to try to do a review of the literature to try to compare observed rates of celiac in countries with higher to lower Use of of these certain insecticides or herbicides, but I don't know if we have a robust enough body of literature to answer that so it is something that I had on my list And I may I may try to Tackle that again And if anyone listening is affiliated with the university and thinks they they have Interest to do that I'd be I'd be happy to kind of pool our resources But when I initially reached out to one of the universities that I work with That's assisted me in publishing another well, we haven't published it yet But we essentially got IRB approval for another study and we'll be initiating that soon We've been delayed because of Incredibly hard time obtaining placebo is but that's another story When we started digging into some of the details It didn't seem we had enough of a data set to answer that question And so that's why I try to be very again very careful in the language that I use because I see the problem occurring where People make inflated and I'm not saying you're doing this But people in general make these inflated claims and then what ends up happening is People get a far worse picture of the way things actually are because no one is is trying to really be You know conservative and discerning in the language that they use and celiac disease is a good example of that That's one of the things I like about you is you're very Calculated with you saying very careful with how you say it just because you want to be very accurate And I really appreciate that. What are some of the biggest? I guess What are some of the the biggest problems that people are finding with food like single things like Is it gluten? I mean you've mentioned gluten a couple times. Yeah, let's tackle that because yeah, because that's a big one Right like I read an article people love to send me this kind of shit Well, they'll send me a study that says gluten intolerance doesn't exist Or you know this news this study shows that it isn't a gluten intolerant It's not real except for celiacs And I I I know that's false because I'm one of those people that reacts to gluten, but I don't have celiacs What's the deal with gluten? Well, yeah, that's a long long answer, but I'll give you a few of the most relevant strokes When when you hear people say that gluten intolerance is not a thing They're probably citing this one study that found that it was actually a FODMAP intolerance that attributed that was That is the one that the cause of the factor for the reaction and not the gluten itself now We also review this in the book there have essentially been And this may have changed since about a year ago because the the body of literature here is evolving quite quickly But there have been five randomized control trials Looking to establish is non celiac gluten sensitivity an issue or not And that's the condition where you don't have celiac, but you have a you think you have a problem with gluten, right? I get bloated. I get headaches. I get joint pain whatever Four of those five studies in a placebo controlled double-blinded fashion did find that it was in fact the gluten that caused the reaction One study did find it was not the gluten, but it was the FODMAPs So this is why being careful in your language is important because you could misrepresent those studies The that one low FODMAP study if you didn't look In context of the greater body of literature, you could potentially be confused in terms of what that means So it means that both of these things are an issue And and let me tie this to another study There was a multicenter study in italy that looked at 12,225 patients And you had a group of gastroenterologists who were really trying to answer this question And they comprised a 60-point assessment including questionnaires lab tests and physical examination to try to assess What was a prevalence and what were the symptoms and associated conditions that occur with non celiac gluten sensitivity? and essentially what they found was a three percent occurrence in that population of non celiac gluten sensitivity now 12,000 patients is a good sample size, but it was in italy and there may I don't know this to be true There may be less glycol phosphate use in europe than there is u.s. I've heard that I have not fact-checked it and unless and unless I fact-checked it. I do not believe it because You just you can't believe what you hear you have to check these have you heard it from other patients too Because I've heard clients will be like I can't eat bread in america. So i'm so i'm getting i'm getting to that So my suspicion is that people have been indoctrinated not everyone okay not everyone But I think there's a fair proportion of the population in the u.s. That have been indoctrinated into thinking you can't have any gluten But in europe it's different and you can and they've They've never adequately tested it in the u.s. And when they go to europe, they're actually discovering They don't have as much of a problem with gluten as they thought they did a or b They're on vacation. They're less stressed. They're sleeping more and they're having fun And you're seeing the lifestyle component reflect and I see that I see that quite a bit Where patients come into my clinic afraid of food and finally someone in a position of authority says You can eat some gluten you can expand your diet and they go just the stress cause them to react Oh my god, like I stop stressing out about food. I'm eating more and i'm feeling so much better So I don't know if I fully buy that i'm open to that And that's that that's the question I wanted to answer with my previous inquiry into this issue But it didn't seem like there was an adequate data set to answer it. But continue continuing on with with this one study um 3% were found to have Non-seal that gluten sensitivity estimates in the u.s. range from 0.6 to 6% So there could be more of this in the u.s. But I don't know if we have an adequate data set to fully answer that question But 3% to 6% Isn't a huge change it tells you that non-seal that gluten sensitivity is an issue But is it an issue that? Affects 90 of the population as some people would probably have you believe No, it's probably more so the minority than it is the majority So I think that's really important to keep in mind now. They also Looked at auto mu conditions because one of the first things that comes up is well I've heard that if you have an auto mu condition you should never have gluten Well, is that really true? They found that 14 percent of the people With non-seal that gluten sensitivity. So it's 14 percent of that 3 percent right? It's not 14 percent of the entire population right 3 percent were found to have non-seal that gluten sensitivity Of that 3 percent 14 had out immune conditions. So that's not a lot Right, but it but it is documented and it is legitimate. So we you need to see both sides of it and Of that about 9 percent of that 14 percent had autoimmune thyroid. So some people say I've heard that if you have autoimmune thyroid, you can never have any gluten There is an association between thyroid autoimmunity and celiac disease. And I think it's the most common autoimmune condition Next next to celiac disease in terms of the relation and thyroid autoimmunity is the most prevalent autoimmune condition, so Yes, it is an issue But should you blindly avoid gluten if you have thyroid autoimmunity without ever doing some Elimination reintroduction to see what your relationship is No, you should figure this out through your own experience. Now There's two other things here that are really key one It was found. So let me take a step back and and just frame this People often say well, I've heard that if I eat gluten that could fuel this autoimmune process That may not cause any symptoms for months or years. Have you guys heard that? So if I start eating gluten now five three years from now, I'm gonna have a higher chance Yeah, you're you're fueling this underlying inflammatory process. It won't manifest symptomatically for years Okay, that may be true and I and I am open to that if we prove that but In my clinical experience and also with this study finding I don't think that's fully supported at least not for the vast majority of patients In the same study with the 12,225 patients Of which three percent noticed they had non celiac gluten sensitivity Over 90 of people who reacted to gluten reacted within 24 hours So that tells you that you'd know pretty that you would most and it makes sense that if you were fueling Active damage to your body You would feel most likely you'd feel some kind of symptom associated with that now The symptoms can be very diverse for some people. It could be a skin reaction for some people It could be a neurological reaction like feeling incoordinated A bit atactic or feeling like they have brain fog or slurred speech for other people It may be constipation or diarrhea or fatigue or joint pain So there's not a symptom But if you notice all of a sudden you're having a symptom pop up Within 24 hours of your gluten reintroduction Then that's pretty safe to say you should be avoiding gluten now Can someone not have an intolerance to food then develop an intolerance and then through working through it It go away. Yeah, so that's actually a great transition to the the final point I wanted to make from this study the same study found that 30 percent of people Had their reaction to gluten that was attributable to something else Meaning small intestinal bacterial overgrowth Fog map intolerance or some other problem in the gut that was causing them to be reactive to the gluten in the first place So when they get rid of that So when you when they fixed their gut 30 percent of patients who had A reaction to gluten as we label non celiac gluten sensitivity were able to then eat gluten and be devoid of symptoms Well, that's very interesting. Yeah, why and I see I see quite a bit of that So I think more people can eat gluten than think they can now I want to be careful in saying because I will hear you know the the gluten-free zealots, you know getting angry I'm not saying that some people do not derive enormous benefit from going gluten-free But you're not seeing what I'm seeing which are people coming into the clinic Decimated by fear regarding gluten and because they're trying to live a 100% gluten-free lifestyle So I think for the majority of people a gluten reduced diet is probably a pretty safe place to be Well, you're not even saying that they you wouldn't pick that as one of the few things to look into right away, right? I imagine that's still one of the major it's one of the first things I start people right So it's just that I think people take it to an extreme level like they do with everything because if you had a guess What percentage of people would you guess based upon what you hear right the the ethos of opinion in natural medicine? Would be the percentage of people who can eat gluten It'd be high very well one of the first things that that people go on when they were trying to fix their gut health Is a grain-free typically diet not just gluten-free but grain-free which I support I support that but what we want to do on the talent of that is then going to a reintroduction to find what your personal diet should be Some people will have the short end of the stick there and they'll have to be very Careful to avoid gluten But other people will have the ability to take some liberty And we want those people not to be encumbered by any unnecessary dietary restrictions. That's all i'm driving at Something you said that was really interesting was how you could have an underlying condition That is fueling or driving a particular Food intolerance and it makes me wonder how many people out there Are managing An issue that they don't know the root of they're managing it by eliminating all these foods and like well I can no longer eat those foods right not knowing they have sebo or something else That is is driving that is that common? I think it's yeah, I mean it's fairly common and that's why In the the action plan in my book we start off with diet, but we essentially walk through A reevaluation at the end of the dietary step and we say Yes or no, do you feel like you're at least 70 improved? And if you are not we're going to move forward Because what can end up happening is people can try to force your point A dietary solution to a non dietary problem right if you have sebo And again, it's not all about sebo. It's just it's a very Commonly discussed topic right now, so i'm using that as one of our proxies for gut imbalances, but there are many like Types of dysbiosis or imbalances in the life in your gut that can occur But if you have sebo if you have significant sebo You can eat around that Right, you can eat a low-fob. You know a strict low-fob map diet and you can do fairly well with that But there's a chance that you won't have to eat a strict of a low-fob map diet or a paleo diet or whatever It is that's providing relief if you clean up other problems in your gut So that's why we have our step one Diet and end-life style and if at the end of that you're not feeling Like you have at least improved by 70 and then we keep working through the steps Have you had a lot of patients come in that you just know there's a lot of psychological factors that that Contribute to You know what you're trying to address things in their diet But at the same time you can pretty much tell that a lot of it's derived from their oh, yeah Their state and that that's why i'm so as you can probably tell passionate about giving people accurate And and very well thought out advice Because i think we've gotten to a tipping point now where people are not being responsible with the language that they use And the accuracy of the recommendations that they're making and it's making people think they have problems when they don't have problems And so you're absolutely right. I see more of that than i'd like to admit that i see and that's why i um tried to have Written into the tapestry of the book this message that is empowering and not indoctrinating I don't want people to walk away From the book feeling afraid of food or dependent on supplements because you shouldn't be right, um, but You know when someone writes a book and this is not a dig on anyone who's done this But when someone writes a book With 101 reasons why gluten is bad and a plan to avoid gluten and they don't give you this broader context Then people walk away thinking i can never have gluten right and then they but three months three months later they read about How If you have bacterial overgrowth which they think they have because they heard a symptom of bacterial overgrowth is bloating Then you shouldn't eat fog maps So now they're gluten free And the low fog map then six months later They read about the autoimmune paleo diet and how they can't have any night shades because that may fuel Their autoimmune condition and they have thyroid autoimmunity And so now two foods left. Yeah, and so they keep now they're in the carnival All these dietary restrictions and no one's ever given them the context of saying Listen, here's the plan we're going to go through and we're going to reevaluate and at the end of every step And then it's part of this plan and we are going to broaden your diet We're going to try to broaden your diet as much as we can And get you off of all the supplemental supports to try to find the minimum amount of supplemental support And the maximum amount of food you can include in your diet. Well, that just sounds like Responsible doctoring I got a I got a question for you integrity We've had a couple guests on the show who eat a carnivore diet and i've seen this all over Social media now where people literally only eat Meat no vegetables. No fruits. No nuts. No nothing and They get improvements in health now i For i don't think it's the Because the the diet is a healthy diet. I personally think they have Immune issues with lots of different foods or maybe some other good stuff. What do you think is going on? Am i do you think i'm on the right track or do you think that there's something to the carnivore diet? Yeah, I think I think the carnivore carnivore diet is An untenable dietary recommendation to make In the long term I'm open to it as a short-term diet to allow one to Give the gut a chance to heal To reduce the consumption of some of these food stuffs that may be more noxious to the gut and it does seem that Plant matter can be noxious to the gut. There are compounds and plants Perhaps more so than any other type of food That are noxious or can be noxious to the gut like what what are some some of these compounds? Well, you have things like like lectins and saponins and then even things that aren't Designed by the plant to be noxious Can irritate people with sensitive guts like those with cibo and ibs and fob maps, right? So So I think if you improve someone's gut health, then they won't need the carnivore diet in the long term and if you look at the anthropological data The the best study I know of that was a worldwide assessment of hundred gatherer Diets did find that yes, maybe 50 as high as 60 of calories came from animal products But that's 50 to 60 not a hundred. That's not a hundred percent Now i'm also Open to the occasional exception the one percent of the population that may have such progressed Immune problems that they can't eat anything else But I would I would be suspicious if someone like that may have something that can well firstly foundationally Make sure they don't have something like cibo H pylori dysbiosis and and just aren't in need of a gut healing protocol second to that An fmt I think may be very helpful for someone who's gone through and not responded fully to All the other foundational therapies so not putting the fmt first putting that more toward the end of the list or undergoing treatment for mass activation syndrome where People have very very overzealous immune systems and may need direct immune therapy or even using something like helmet therapy Which is more experimental. That's that's where people give themselves parasites and sure I mean it's much more experimental, but if we're looking at someone who Can only eat meat something is wrong there, right? And so and so something is need is in need of uh rectification And so that's where these other therapies I think would be good to look at is is the helmet therapy is that becoming more of a thing now I read a book on that maybe three or four years ago And it was really fascinating and the people that they were that were doing it were people with really bad Like crone's disease like really really bad. Yeah, you don't do this if you're just a little bit below Yeah Is there new is there new science coming out on this and this so for the audience who doesn't know what I'm talking about This is where they give people they literally give them parasites and Through that process the bodies we should clarify that we should clarify that term though because There there are things that may have been stereotypically labeled as parasites Okay, but they may not actually be parasitic Okay, interesting because we're noticing that some of these worms and worms are the really the the Life form and question here They may have developed a symbionic relationship with the host not dissimilar to some bacteria Where they cause a localized immunosuppression So that they can live but we may have evolved requiring some degree of immunosuppression in the gut to prevent Wow over these else immune attacking so they may not be quote-unquote They may not function as parasites. They may be things that we used to label as parasites Interesting, but they may not be better classified as symbiots. Yeah, we need them in other words So when what's the is there any new research on this to show that it's You know, there's not a ton of research here because as you can imagine The ability to get approval for these studies Is you got to go to mexico. Yeah, but we we did have um a I want to I'm blank on his name now. We interviewed three Worm specialists on our podcast um and There was a researcher from duke william Gosh, I'm blanking his name. I'm william william parker from duke And he did what I thought was one of the more interesting studies where they did a A assessment of patients who were self-treating with worms And and they did find that there is a documentable clinical effect for these people Um, but it's it's challenging because there there are different types of worms just like there are different types of probiotics And we interviewed another I guess you could say worm specialists. Um, Aaron. I'm sorry God Aglietti was his last name. Um Sorry, we have had so many people in my podcast Aglietti was was I think I think his name was garen aglietti and he's in mexico and He's very passionate about worm therapy, but also very passionate that Worms are as individual as people and and and so how we use those is is fairly individualized so there's a lot here to learn and I don't profess to know everything because there's there's not a lot of clinical literature to To pull from I have had a handful of patients who have elected to do their own self-experimentation because unfortunately Where the hell they get the worms? I I can't advise anyone to do anything because of the the legal environment local bait store So there there are two places you can obtain hdc Through a website known as biome restoration and you can Wow, you can buy worms online. I've actually done two inoculations myself. Wait a minute. Hold on a second rewind You bought worms online and eat them. Yeah, how do they come really like it's very it's very similar to a probiotic I'm sorry. Nancy O'Hara is a pediatrician. We also had on our podcast who I thought gave the best iteration of clinical guidelines and she She uses these in her in her theatrics practice and she sees about a 50 percent response rate with whoa 50 percent in a select population. So you took so you took these what happened to you? Now the first time I took them I took a dose that was probably higher than I should have and I didn't Understand all the nuance until I had a chance to interview Dr. O'Hara Who and this is why it's important not to talk in a topic that you don't have clinical familiar Um, but I wasn't never do that. I I wasn't I wasn't advising anyone on this I was just doing my own self experimentation Um, but she starts people with a lower dose and gradually stair steps them up. Okay I did third units of the hdc Helmins with the medical term for for worm and What can happen if you take too high of a dose or you have an immune system that's very ramped up Is you can have a histamine reaction when you first take it. Oh, she got an allergic reaction And so I had irritability And brain fog and fatigue now I took an antihistamine and I took an Advil It went away within 10 minutes and never came back since I don't really have a lot of symptoms. Uh, you know, I have little things that we all deal with but nothing Nothing that I felt like it was a good gauge to say this is working or this is not working So I ended up doing two inoculations and then there was other things I wanted to experiment with so I I jump ship I about six months ago did one additional inoculation of 10 Units and I felt nothing. I felt no histamine response. But according to dr. O'Hara Those who have the most wound up immune systems tend to have the most histamine reactions out of the gate Um, so without getting too far afield into an area of therapy that isn't really going to provide people much relief Um, I you know, I think there's something interesting there and there's there's these other therapies For people who example can only tolerate meat. I would say an FMT working with a provider that can guide you through helmetic therapy or mass activation treatments, which essentially start with over the counter antihistamine agents Can be very helpful. But this this is going to a class of people that is the vast minority, right? There's a lot more Uh, you know entry level steps that will give people quite a bit of benefit. Well Go ahead. How often do you get questions about like kids like raising kids today with all the process foods and sugar and the Shit that we have out there. Do you get a lot of parents that ask you like, what am I supposed to feed my kid? Uh I don't get as many parents asking what to feed their kids as I do Parents saying I have a child with IBS. I have a child with behavioral issues and and For those children the same things that happen to adults happen to children One of the things that I've seen happen with children that's different than in adults is And I see this in a population of children with behavioral disorders where their parents read about the gaps diet Have you heard of that? Um, so essentially the gaps diet Is a diet that's very heavy and fermented foods. It's gut and psychology syndrome I believe it stands for Natasha Campbell, I believe is the author and It's a healthy diet. It's like a paleo diet combined with a lot of fermented foods And that can be very helpful for some people. However In fermented foods you have D lactate D and l lactate which are which are these Compounds that are a byproduct of bacterial fermentation Children have a much more difficult time metabolizing d and l lactate than adults do Why is that relevant because d lactate when it builds up can cause brain fog irritability alterations of mood And if you combine that with someone who also has small intestinal bacterial overgrowth, which will itself We think release d l lactate Then you can fall into the syndrome of these kids just being saturated in these in these compounds That can cause irritability and brain fog and tantrums and what have you so by getting them off of fermented foods And if they also have it treating their dysbiosis and or bacterial overgrowth We've seen some pretty remarkable improvements in behaviors and some of these children Yeah, I was gonna say like our parents bringing their kids in and thinking oh, they have ADHD Change their diet gets better goes away stuff like that Well, sometimes what happens is it gets better for a little while and then it starts to get worse Because at first they get if they're using the gaps diet specifically Um because at first I think the the probiotics in the gaps diet Help to support and correct any dysbiosis But then they hit this The other part of the you when I was a threshold where they get too much of now And now they start building up this d l lactate and probably also histamine and now they're just saturated Uh, and they need to stop the intake of that for a while and let these things drain out of their system Whoa, what is the the newest uh, what is this some of the cutting edge research coming? Because the last thing that I read that was really mind-blowing to me was it's all the All this research coming out on how Our gut health affects our our mental state And then they discovered that there's basically a direct connection between the the gut and the brain Whereas we thought that it was always separated by the the blood brain barrier But I guess there's a direct highway now through the lymphatic system What is what is some of the newest research coming out like what is it looking like? Well, I mean I can't say that I'm on the forefront of of every nuance there because there's an important clarifying remark to make even in that regard Which is there's a difference between clinical studies that exhibit some kind of gut brain connection and mechanistic findings Does that kind of make sense? explain so So we can see that that there's a connection. It doesn't mean that it actually Yeah, so it's one thing to be able to say that when someone has This type of bacterial overgrowth we see an expression Change in this pathway in the brain or we see an up regulation of this gene transcription or we see More of this compound being released That's that's some of the probably the most cutting edge, which which is just starting to piece together Some of these mechanisms meaning when this is going on in the gut Counterpoint what is happening in the brain? that I'm not Up to snub on because I'm looking at here We have a group of patients with IBS who also had depression and we treated them with this and here is what happened Right and and this is where I focus on Because I've learned that as interesting as these mechanistic observations are and and as important as they are for advancing the science They don't give me anything to do differently tomorrow in the clinic And I would also caution that if you do too much Treatment in drawing inferences from what we see in mechanism studies The probability that you may hurt someone is is high because until we've Run that experiment in humans. We don't know what's going to happen And I think people with IBS or other gut issues who are given Lots of prebiotics or high prebiotic diets because in theory that should have helped them And then the majority of patients that tends to flare them is a glaring example I'm one of those like you don't say oh we eat lots of prebiotics with which are the starches and stuff that feed Last time I was here. We talked about yeah, and you eat and I'll eat that and that'll jack me up Right exactly. So that's why you know, it's I get it as a patient It's it's attracted to say oh my god like there was there was more of this compound that's anti-inflammatory Like there are when you eat prebiotics, right? I'm going to go out and do that and I've had plenty of patients who have gone out and done that And they've felt terrible after doing so there are some patients that that will be helpful for but the point I'm making is we want to look at human clinical trials or or at least outcome studies before we start intervening now to the point of intervening I have seen low histamine diets be very helpful for people with otherwise non responsive neurological symptoms brain fog including insomnia word search Irritability fatigue All our symptoms Of many but of histamine overload and what's what can be problematic there is Sometimes people inadvertently go on to a higher histamine diet when they go paleo, especially if they go paleo low carb What's that from all the highest I mean containing foods like like avocado tuna any kind of jerky Spinach Kombucha's anything fermented cured meats Right, so it's possible that you could be eating a lot of this and in fact, I had a period where it sounds like Sal's diet I had a period where I was having brain fog and irritability For no reason and I just remember I've been sitting at my desk on a beautiful sunny day and all of a sudden Like half an hour after eat. I feel irritable and fatigued and foggy And I was like what the heck is going on right? I had this morning. I had Two eggs avocado You know sauerkraut and then I just was sipping on a Kombucha I didn't realize it at the time But I was just saturating myself in histamine because every meal had a high histamine food So that's one thing That can be very effective It only takes a week or less to run a low histamine diet experiment And by the way in in healthy good healthy you we talk about the low histamine diet And we also link to a low histamine diet guide So we have we have bases covered there for an easy do this for one week If you if you feel better then just be mindful to restrict or reduce your dietary histamine intake It doesn't mean you have to be crazy. You can never have any histamine. It's just like pouring water into a sink You can't pour the water in faster than the sink can drain So you can't eat more histamine than your body can clear What what about a histamine? What about an antihistamine would that benefit somebody in that particular situation like if if they took like claritane or And by the way, I'm saying this is someone who's been a little bit histamine sensitive sipping on a kombucha Right. Oh, yeah, I was just gonna say you're drinking our our brew doctor right now and how often would you recommend somebody? Like drink something like that because I know you can overdo that too I've seen right so that so I used to eat a high histamine food at every meal And when I when I took a dietary assessment of what I was eating I discovered that I was eating a high histamine food at every meal because it's kind of like the lazy man's paleo Right tuna avocado cured meats jerky spinach. Yeah So now I just simply try to Not do that There's literally all I had to do there was no complicated math involved and that made a huge difference So everyone will have to find their own threshold Also, your intestinal lining secretes enzymes that help you break down histamine So the healthier your gut the better you are at metabolizing histamine So as to your earlier or our earlier point if you improve someone's gut health, they'll have less dietary restrictions up They'll have to worry about but regarding histamine specifically I think the easiest way to figure that out is just have someone do a low histamine diet for a week And then do a reintroduction to see where their threshold is but in the context of also working through a broader program to improve their gut health because if you have an active Inflammatory burden in your intestines is that's damaging your villi That's to create the enzymes to help you break down histamine You're never going to be able to eat that much histamine until you get rid of that inflammatory factor Damaging your intestines lowering your ability to break down histamine. So that seemed like a really complicated answer to Maybe not drink a kombucha every single day But coming back to the brain thing there's also been one meta analysis and a meta analysis is is essentially One study that summarizes the results of the existing clinical trials Very very high level scientific evidence that found that probiotics Have a measurable positive impact on both anxiety and depression So these are the types of things that I think are important Looking at the mechanism is very interesting. But that's for Researchers to then say, okay, here's a consistent relationship that we're seeing and a way we could intervene Is by then setting up a clinical trial Giving an agent that lowers this or increases that or modulates this Then they have the clinical trial and if that clinical trial works Someone like me is watching the clinical trial outcomes and saying ah now we can bring this into the clinic and use it What about the histamine blocker or histamine anti-histamine drugs? I asked earlier Would that help in that particular situation? And so yes, they may they wouldn't be the first place I would go because again someone may just be eating too much dietary histamine If someone has something like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or leaky gut or or Damage to their gut then that may be causing them to not do a a good job of clearing it themselves But as we go on the continuum of people with mild health conditions toward more severe Some people may need ongoing Antihistamine medications like satirazine or loratidine Like benadryl and zirtac things like that And that's when I mentioned mass activation syndrome earlier for some of these patients who Are exquisitely sensitive Then they may need to work with a specialist Of which we've had on two times now. Dr. Lawrence afrin who's a pioneer in this work who Would it would essentially build for them a custom protocol of either antihistamine agents which can be over the counter Or mass cell activating. I'm sorry mass mass cell stabilizing agents, which are mostly prescription That can help calm down their overzealous immune system So yes, someone could start with it with an easy protocol of just experimenting with an over-the-counter antihistamine And that may help them But I would do that only in the context of first trying to improve your gut health more broadly And then there are protocols that have been developed for how to use these antihistamines in a more You know precise manner in the longer term If someone still has these immune type reactions every time they eat or just kind of all the time Otherwise, it's a band-aid, right? If you don't fix the root, then it's just a band-aid And some people will need a band-aid even after fixing the root They'll need a band-aid, but and that's okay that that's the other thing that sometimes Throws people a challenge where they Feel better on a drug, but philosophically they don't want to be on a drug But if you've if you've addressed the root there are some people that will need that additional support And for some people you just have to say, okay I'm okay with it and not not prevent yourself from undergoing a treatment that may help you Even though um or just because you have this philosophical preference not to ever use of course One of the best things I've ever done for more recently for my the health of my gut is I do a prolonged fast every month now. I do a A 48 or 72 hour fast and it's one of the best things I've ever done personally for myself Why why why is that helping me so much and have you used fasting with your patients and yep What seems to be able to deal with that? Is it just because it gives me a break? The way I figure it is you know, I'm I'm killing off You know old cells stem cells get stimulated When I refeed those stem cells get turned into new cells which tend to be less Autoimmune or less prone to be autoimmune, but that's just uh, that's just my own speculation Or I'm sure there's a degree of that happening And I don't know if we've if we know what One mechanism predominates the benefit that is is derived from fasting But they're probably multi-fold And I should mention just I want to try to give the listener kind of the context here As part of step one in the healthy go healthy you protocol We talk about meal frequency and fasting because that would be a foundational issue, right? Just like you said you derive huge benefit from periodic fasting So before we have someone do let's say herbal antimicrobials to kill SIBO Let's make sure that's not just a lack of fasting It's holding them back. You're oversaturating yourself all the time. How it's just back off a little bit Exactly. Exactly now on the other side of the coin Some people need to eat more frequent meals Right because some people fast too much and they start getting irritable And they start being fatigued and not sleeping well and having insomnia because they they're drinking a ton of caffeine And they're not and they're fasting a ton. So there's a balance to be struck But we do have one clinical trial and I be it may not be a clinical trial Maybe more so an observation but we have documented evidence showing a favorable impact with fasting and IBS and an IBD And we have data showing Because there's the question embedded in this topic, which is doesn't skipping a meal damage or metabolism And the majority of the data has found no impact on metabolism But a some of the data suggests a slight benefit So if you look at all the data at large the majority of data show a negligible benefit There are some studies showing a metabolic benefit So we can say for your metabolism fasting is neutral to beneficial But it does not seem to be supported that it's detrimental But why it works is likely like you said stimulation of apoptosis and stem cell simulation. There's also likely a partial mechanism of Not being exposed to food stuff that may be irritating your gut. Mm-hmm. It's like giving it a break right giving it a break um Those are probably the the too predominant You may also make the argument that if someone has something like a fungal or a bacterial overgrowth You're depriving those the food they need to proliferate That could be another argument a fourth could be that fasting stimulates motility Which helps sweep out bacterial and fungal overgrowth Um, it stimulates this this essentially this this peristaltic wave known as a migratory motor complex Where the intestines contract and as they contract it just kind of sweeps All of any of the leftover debris. This is probably why the first meal after a long fast Do you get the do you get the I mean basically diarrhea? It's like comes out real quick Do we do we consider the the digestive process an actual stress on the body? Do we consider that or no? That's a good question. Um, because the reason why I asked that is I feel like it's so much simpler than that When you look at all the systems of the body Um If you're constantly stressing it all the time It's constantly having to work Then it would be the most obvious thing to me to give it a break every once in a while Just like every other system in the body for it to be most optimal Yeah, no good question. I had never really thought about is digestion the stressor, but Yeah, I would think it's it's a healthy stressor Right, just like exercise right, but or even breathing right the oxidation is as a biopractic breathing oxygen can be For lack of a better term inflammatory because it's oxidizing Um, so yeah, and we we know that you need to burn more calories when you digest food because of the energy that is utilized So, yeah, I I guess you could make the argument that Digestion is a stressor if someone's gut is overly stressed you can take some stress off of the gut By fasting which seems to me that in the day and age that we live in is more common than not because we are Most american yeah, nobody fast right most americans are Over-consuming and sitting down and having food delivered to them and not you know i'm saying I just feel like uh It seems that simple to me that that would be that beneficial to just especially the bodybuilding community because this was a tough Pill for me to swallow initially because I came I don't want to say it came from a bodybuilding background But that's where In my you come from the to eat every two hours Yeah, every two to three hours kind of kind of camp which worked very well for me But I think when I was going through my gut problems if I knew about fasting and some of those other things I would have been able to heal so much more quickly right right 100 100 percent of grief What if you look at the book right now? Okay, what is the most power if I had to pick one chapter in that book What do you think it's the most powerful and impactful chapter you have in your book? Geez that's like asking to choose your kids I know it's full of all kinds of stuff But think from a practical standpoint when you are writing it What do you feel like everybody needs to read this piece right here? well Let me answer that with like maybe three i'm gonna break it down to that's fine I want to be able to see that's fine So if someone is still working on their diet Read the chapter on diet Right if someone's already done paleo and they've already maybe done low-fod map Then I would read the chapter on step two which so step one is is all on diet Step two are the therapies that you do after diet like probiotics and enzymes And if someone's already done diet and probiotics Then I would read the chapter on step three Which is the next escalation of therapy which are anthmicrobial therapies to help Correct any kind of dysbiosis So it's even written in your opinion chronologically for how someone should should actually know exactly I mean the whole book You know first we go through explaining All these things like if you haven't heard of these diets here They are if you haven't heard of probiotics here. They are if you haven't heard of anthmicrobials here. They are here's what they do Here's how they can help And then we organize all at the end into this action plan called the great innate and it's eight steps But not everyone has to go through all eight got it. Let's say you're in Generally good health, but you're a little bit bloated right you may only need to go through step one And then you go right to maintenance, which is step six got it right But if someone has very progressed ibs They may have to go through step one step two step three step four step five and then into maintenance, which is six Um, so yeah, it's it's meant to be a book that can help Someone with mild symptoms all the way through severe And it steers you along the process So not everyone does all eight because that would be wasteful for you would be wasteful If you were doing the same amount of stuff as someone with severe colitis, right, right? So it's it's individualized where we check in with you at the end of each step And we say okay, if you're feeling this way go here if you're feeling that way go there so now and what do you plan on attaching like coaching and like online sort of a Accountability through this book is like this book is the vessel that kind of opens that up That's a great great question. No Because I don't I do not have the time of the bandwidth to to do that um I know that there's a number of of health coaches and even doctors who are now using this book with their patients Which is pretty awesome to be able to say we do have a A forum on our website for every step of the eight steps where you can ask questions That's cool. And then I think at some point, but it's a year or two away. I'll probably roll out a clinical training course for doctors and healthcare providers to be able to use this work with people but um Yeah, I'd love to have that accountability piece But the the next thing I want to tackle is trying to get a few more research studies published Showing the validity of some of the approach that's recommended in the book. So No, I I kind of think I know the answer what I would like to hear you articulate it do you believe that It's important that somebody learns all this information even if you feel 100 healthy. I've got no issues. I feel fine I eat the way I want to eat and I don't have any problems I think This book is one that that someone in that position that fortunate position could read and it could give them Some ideal to strive for if they wanted to be preventative in nature. Yes And the read but but I make that recommendation very cautiously Because I would hate to take someone who is healthy and then pull them into this sickness of health indoctrination And just and just put that negative into their psyche Right, this book will not do that because this book was written to be empowering Rather than fear mongering. So that's I would say if you were someone who is healthy I'd be very cautious with what you read because the last thing you need to do Is figure yourself into feeling like you're not sick, right when you are and that happens That happens more than you would think right? So so that's why I make that very careful answer Is because I'd hate to see a healthy person think that they were sick Even when they really weren't right because I just like to think that there's probably people out there that feel fine I mean, I think of myself when I was 25 Like I would have loved to have met you back when I was 25 years old But if you would have asked me I would have said I'm fine and I was eating jack in the box every once in a while I hardly ever ate any vegetables. I didn't eat a lot of fermented foods Because I didn't understand I didn't really understand the importance of that and I think Understanding that even if I didn't have problems would have kind of set me into the right track earlier on as far as better food choices Yeah, and and exactly Exactly that in the sense that I also wouldn't want to make you someone who's now a health nut right so you go out to a restaurant You ask the waiter. Was that cooked in a teflon pan? Oh, none for me Like I wouldn't want a lot of orthorexics Yeah, I wouldn't want to turn you into that and again, I'm not saying that you know It's it's healthy to use teflon But you we want to be discerning in the way we count your fucking rocks There's bigger fucking rocks It's I tell people the same thing when they ask us detailed questions about supplements It's like oh if I take this at this time this it's like bro You're not even fucking paying attention what you're eating the rest of the day And you're asking me about some supplements going to give you one percent more of the edge It's like let's handle the big rocks first And I think that's one of the things that we all connected when we all first met and when we've become friends is I think you're very responsible With the information that you provide like what we try and do too is that listen I'm not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing It's just that there's probably other things that you should probably putting a lot more effort into before you're worried about teflon Pick your battles. Yeah, exactly. What are some other? Not so common issues that people have that can be related to Poor gut because obviously if you have Constipation bloating diarrhea anything that has to do with that People, you know, okay, my gut is off, right? Or what are some other commons or some other symptoms that can be related to your gut that people don't necessarily realize that's a it's a really important question because You can have a non digestive symptom that's caused by a digestive problem And that was actually me. I had an amoeba But I did not have diarrhea or bloating or abdominal pain All I had was fatigue very bad insomnia Brain fog and I was feeling cold often, right? So you can have a problem in the gut that manifests solely as Pimples and rashes or solely as insomnia or solely as fatigue or solely as brain fog or solely as irritability or solely as joint pain Or solely or solely as hypothyroid like symptoms It wouldn't be you know, I'm saying it's hypothyroidism. I think would be a little bit of a stretch But there's definitely especially a sebo thyroid in an h. Pylori thyroid connection. So it's definitely possible and we have At very least observations if not clinical treatment data Showing that treating these imbalances in the gut will improve the skin the joints the brain fog The thyroid So I don't say these things lightly again being careful in the language that we use But we do know that it is very possible to have no digestive symptoms But your symptoms are being caused by a problem in the gut Yeah, and it can be a lot of things a lot of I mean it can be a a wide array of symptoms Yeah, that's what makes it difficult. Oh shit, man. I'm glad you wrote this book You know, we've been recommending it to people and how's it? How's the response been so far? It's been awesome. I mean people are literally sending in testimony. I don't want to say testimonies, but just like thank yous on instagram Um, I haven't pooped normally in 10 years. This is the first time I've been pooping normally. Oh, wow Like literally that's a big deal. It is a big deal. Yeah, like you oh another celebration another gal I owe you my life. Yeah after and so It's it's really cool to uh never have met these people because I see that kind of thing in the clinic, which is great But too. I've never even had met someone right to be doing it all over the world now It's gotta be pretty cool. It's a really cool feeling. Yeah, well, and I'm really excited just to those everyone That's listening to I already tied mic down that we're going to start having him drop in our forum on occassionals occassionals Occasionally So he'll be in the private forum and we'll set it up to where you guys could ask him some questions It's been about an hour on there to be able to talk to you guys So that's something to look forward to in the future and the name of the book is healthy gut Healthy you and you can find that anywhere right on amazon amazon We'll also have we'll have links in the body. We'll have all kinds of stuff with that Plus we'll do a nice intro for mic before we start the show. Excellent. Excellent. If you want to fight on instagram What's your instagram handle? I believe it's dr Rucho so dr r us cio. Thanks brother. I appreciate having on yeah, thanks for having me guys always fun Thank you for listening to minepump if your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically improve your health and energy And maximize your overall performance Check out our discounted rgb super bundle at minepumpmedia.com The rgb super bundle includes maps anabolic maps performance and maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by sal adam and justin to systematically Transform the way your body looks feels and performs With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos the rgb super bundle is like having sal adam and justin As your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price The rgb super bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee And you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at minepumpmedia.com If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes And by introducing minepump to your friends and family We thank you for your support and until next time. 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