 Cloud. Welcome. It is Docs Office Hours. It's November the second reminder that we abide by the Jenkins Code of Conduct. Be nice to each other. So proposed agenda topics. One of the gaps I'm seeing is adding more copy editors. Review the change log. Hacktoberfest results. Security restructuring and adopt a plugin tutorial. Any other topics that need to be on our list for today? One quick one. What happens with the time of this meeting next week? I believe the United States goes off daylight savings time on Sunday. Oh, good question. Okay. So let's put meeting time and the evils of national modifications of time. Okay. Very good. All right. Okay. Good. So we will let that's a good topic. What other topics? If we get through all of this, we'll come up with some other stuff. Okay. Cool. All right. So let's take the evils of national modifications of time first. I live near Boulder, Colorado, where the atomic clocks are maintained for the United States by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. We should stop modifying clocks. The usual pattern here is meeting time continues to be UTC based. So if we need to change it, let's agree to change it to a different UTC time. But for right now, it is scheduled next week. It will be one hour earlier next week. Is that workable? I think that's no change for Dheeraj because I think they don't meddle with clocks in India. I think you're right. I think they're sane. Is that okay for you, Meg, or would you rather be one hour later? Kristen, is this one hour earlier a week from now when the country messes with the clocks is okay? Yeah, that works for me. Okay. So all right. Thus, we'll be one hour earlier next week. Okay. Local time. And please stop messing with clocks. I've threatened to move to Arizona. My wife is from Arizona. I have citizenship there if you wish it, but it's blooming hot in Arizona and my kids are in Colorado. So I agree on the heat. It's very hot down there. And having lived it for many years, that's the least of its problems. Oh, no, no, no, come on. I hate heat. I love I love Sholo area and the White Mountains are beautiful, but that's true. It's a different even so my kids are still in Colorado. Right. All right. So end of plea about clocks. Are there that's the adding more copy editors is definitely what I want to discuss with the two of you and and see your your sense of it, et cetera. So right now we're short handed. We have how do we do that? We ask for permission and then we grant you permission if it's if the community discussion accepts that it would be allowed. Okay. The question is are forward to each of you as individuals. Are you interested in this additional role? Do you have capacity to do anything with it? Right now we've got Oleg who is heavily loaded, Rick who's not not involved hardly at all, Tim who's involved and I'm involved. So we've got two and a half involved, if you will. And and I think we need more bodies just to schedule the to spread the load more. I've got time now, but I don't know what my future is. What would we need to do for or maybe like what is the responsibility of being a copy editor? Good thing for the recording. Right. So a copy editor, a copy editor is a reviewer and an editor of content for the Jenkins.io site. So they operate against three repositories. The plug-in wiki docs repository, largely nothing to do there, the Jenkins.io repository, lots to do there that happens and needs review, et cetera. So blog posts, updates to documentation, et cetera. And then the IEP repository is largely unused. It's it's for infrastructure enhancement proposals. So your the primary role is to review pull requests and merge them after they've passed review for Jenkins.io. Now the danger there is that there's a certain level of experience required that some of the things we want to be careful before we merge. Others we have to ask permission. So for instance, changes in the security area should always be reviewed by security people, that kind of thing. Right. And that's I mean, copy editor traditionally is just, you know, spelling and grammar and adherence to style. Right. And that's and this this copy editor role is a misnomer in that sense, because it's much more than that. Right. And I'm not you. Well, and and but I think that's okay. If just having extra reviewers is a real positive. For instance, I just posted I posted a blog post yesterday. And now 24 hours later, it's not been reviewed yet. And it's one of those that needs that sort of time sensitive. I reviewed it and left you one comment last night. Yeah, I guess I should say differently. It's not been reviewed by anybody whose whose review would authorize me to merge it. Right. And and that's a I understand. I mean, with only four for reviewers, right with only four copy editors right now that I think is just too few. So to I guess, let's go, Kristen, are you okay if I propose that you be added as a copy editor or would you rather not? I can do it. I just it's finding time. Well, and that's I think I'll be I hope I'm having some more time come up. But who knows. But I can definitely take some time and even I guess reviewing a few requests would be helpful. As long as that's good for people. Yeah, and actually, that that would be more than good enough. If you can if you can add 20 minutes a week. That's 20 minutes we don't have right now. Right. So that's already a dramatic improvement over what what we're getting now. So okay, so I'm going to go ahead and put as a yes. As always, it's no no yes. And we understand you this is not a commitment. This is not a guarantee anything like that. It's you're willing if your time allows if your personal schedule allows. Could I be like a silent apprentice or something, Mark? I could read over them at least flag things that I thought you needed to check. Oh, sure. Yeah, that would be fine. Yeah, maybe make you more efficient. I just get you know, I'm willing to do a lot of stuff if I know there's somebody who knows what they're talking about. He's going to come along and check what I said. Good. Okay, so consider copy editor in the future. Right. After mentoring that. Yeah, that sounds fine. I think that's great. Because then what that says is we take give it a period of a few months of hey, we're going to mentor mentor Meg for a period of a few months, proposing Kristen be added because Kristen you've got enough experience to say yes, yes and no, and you're conservative enough in terms of what you'll what you'll actually merge that I'm not working. Yeah, it probably wouldn't be still kind of making sure that for a while I'd appreciate the double checking just to make sure what I'm saying is correct. But yeah, well, and, and, and that's becoming a copy editor is certainly no, no commitment that you will merge things. Okay, that's if you're not comfortable merging it or you want additional consult, you certainly don't have to merge it. But there is that this is a thought to we could try out this model. There may be other people out there like me who are willing to do it but are not qualified to actually make the final judgment. But they could still save some time for you and Oleg and you know people who know really know this stuff and Kristen for that matter. Yeah, that makes sense. Right. Go ahead Kristen, excuse me. No, right. Yeah, it sounds like even just kind of reviewing it to ask the right questions to bring your attention to something that we might not be confident like Meg and I might not be able to confidently say is the right action might help speed up be a better use of your time to right that way you can look at something very because something that I'm finding just in the various things I'm doing is a lot of times there is another piece of documentation that's referenced from something that sounds like the right title but you go and look at that and that's a mess or the piece you're reviewing is actually in conflict with what's in the other piece of documentation and that takes time to read and I can at least look and say these can't both be true I cannot judge which is the correct one. Right, I like that well and and truly that kind of analysis that type of analysis is quite helpful. Right, it's that's defensive work that others of us should do and far too often may not do in the rush to get something merged and you're doing it is a few people working on all this stuff. Exactly. Yeah, right. But I'm saying that's something that you could put out also for people like if I saw your request for copy editors I would not volunteer because I don't think I'm qualified. Right. So maybe you could offer for copy editors and for Carpenter copy editor apprentices or something. Right. You know, we might we might get some nice green people who would jump in. I agree. Okay, all right. So I will so let's let's put and I don't think D Raj is here so let's put the mark to propose the addition to the Jenkins developers list and and we'll see what the conversation goes there. And who is there's somebody who God what's the guy's name. He's he edited a couple he commented on a couple of mine that thing on the nodes and executors and stuff. Any chance that he would be interested if you actually specifically asking. Don't know who it is. That's a good question. Oh God, you know the name. I'm just drawn a blank because I'm not Tim Jacome. I don't know. No. So Daniel is commenting here. Find the one with the nodes and executors and all that. Oh, okay. All right, let's look there. Okay, so no or go back to the. Well, no, I've got Okay, no, it's a very bottom of your screen. Don't scroll. Just go to the bottom. Or it's just waiting. No, it was there. Oh, I see. I see it was it's it's been merged. Good. That's very good. This one. Oh, yeah. Okay. Oh, Deepak Deepak. Yes. Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, so Deepak is not yet experienced enough with either writing processes or the Jenkins project, but he may be willing. He might be a good candidate to be mentored, just like, just like Dirage would probably fit the same, the same role. Right. So Deepak and Dirage all would be, would be very good. Both would be very good candidates. Another question just in general about, so the copy editing is done, like security, we have Daniel who owns it, but does anybody now like own same managing Jenkins and system administration? Does anybody own the pipeline? No, no, in the just the copy editors in general. Okay. Yeah. And whether that any of the technical people, I mean, that's what I'm finding there's this huge problem is that the basic documentation here is just missing. Right. Correct. And, you know, and they're so, so then it's coming back to, it seems to me, there's a problem with the process. I don't know what we do about it, but Oh, because we're missing the first layer of knowledge, like the being able to get the what you should be writing about versus the tech making sure what you're writing about is clear. Right. Okay. Yeah. So is, is, is that a structural question or a content placement for existing content question? Tell me more about it, Nick. I guess I mean, what, well, working with Daniel and Valek on security works great. We can talk about, I can look and say, I think we should do this and this and this and they can say, yeah, this is a good idea. That's stupid. They say it more nicely than that. There's nobody like that for these other pieces. If I wanted to address the managing and Jenkins administration stuff, there's nobody to have that conversation to officially have that conversation with. If I wanted to hit the pipeline stuff, there's nobody to have that conversation with. And it would be nice if we had a technical person or two who was willing to sort of have that role. Oh, no. Yeah. So, and I think it's, I think the answer is there. It's, it's us. So Docs office hours is the place where we discuss, discuss the structure and we can do it in the Gitter channel as well. So so it kind of comes down to you and Chris then become the ownership for everything basic. Right. There's worse people to have it, but it's a load on you guys on top of everything else. Well, it's, it's the, it continues to be the, Hey, we don't have enough bodies. And so we'll continue chasing for bodies. Yep. We could also consider using community Jenkins.io as a discussion spot. But for me, the office, this office hours and the chat channels are pretty simple places to do it. So, so if you're okay with that, I propose let's make that, that our working plan, we just say, yes, as we have questions about what should be in the user, user handbook and where let's go find, find those answers ourselves here. Right. I'm perfectly happy with that. Just pointing out, yeah. Okay. All right. So I think we got closure on the copy editor's question. And then we've got this structural definition topic ready to go on to change log. Yep. Sure. Okay. So this one is a little different. It's different in that what we're reviewing actually won't be visible tomorrow. Usually we review a change log and the next day it is released. The tomorrow there won't be a weekly release and the weekly release that would have happened tomorrow will happen Thursday and it will be a security release. A security release is intentionally only the preceding weekly and security fixes. So none of the changes that have happened since last Tuesday's release are actually going to be included in the next weekly release. Daniel does that the security team does that so that it gives the weekly a lower risk of having some major regression that was introduced in the preceding during the preceding week's development and is commingled with security fixes. Right. So our review of this is proactive one week ahead of time. Okay. Great. All right. So there's a change log for the security stuff then or there there is but it's private. Okay. That makes sense. Right. It's yeah it will be public when the security advisory is posted so that the people who see it can read about what the security problem is that's being fixed but people who shouldn't see it won't get it until then. Okay. All right. Okay. So this is a major big deal. Congratulations to the organization. Thanks to Basel Crow. This thing is wonderful. All right. So what we see here is pull request 5707 upgrade Guava from 11.0.1 to latest where latest is actually 30 or bigger. So this is a major version jump of this Google Guava library and it's taken months and months to get this to that point and Basel has been just absolutely wonderful what he's done for us. The project is so so fortunate to have him working on it. Okay. So let's look at that pull request because I think we want to change the that's interesting. Okay. It says Jenkins is oh oh got it. This is very wide text. All right. So let's read it in place here in this Jenkins has upgraded the Guava library from 11.0.1 released in 2012 at 31.0.1 released in September of 2021. Plugins have already been prepared to support the new version of Guava. Be sure you upgrade all plugins before and after upgrading Jenkins. So for me that actually is brilliantly well stated and upgrade guidelines will be included in the LTS that includes this. That LTS is about four months away. Okay. So we're not going to get this very rapidly because we want time for it to soak in the weekly before we expose it to long term support. Okay. Here's the proposed Guava or the proposed blog post. It's been reviewed by me and by Liam and Jesse and Tim Jacome as ready to go as soon as the release is posted. There are some minor changes to it. Do we assume when we tell them to upgrade all plugins that that includes restart Jenkins afterwards? Yeah. For me at least that's certainly my assumption because anytime we tell them to upgrade we've consistently said upgrade the plugins and not bothered with you'll need to restart and in fact in this case you actually don't have to restart. Oh okay. Because what's going to happen the sequence you'll use is you'll upgrade the plugins immediately before upgrading Jenkins. You'll then stop Jenkins, upgrade Jenkins, start Jenkins and open it up and upgrade your plugins again. Okay. And by doing that you shouldn't have any intermediate restarts because you've done the restarts by doing a hard stop. Are you okay? Okay. I'll shut up. No, great question. And looking at the other changes they actually I think they're correct to not be listed. This one will need we'll have to convert it to use the and have these be references but that means we've got the URLs so we know how what the URL should be and that's it's just the nature of the tool that it doesn't ought to convert those to references. Yeah. Cool. Okay. That's easy. Great. So that was that's and I think this one has already been marked as no I'm going to I'm going to mark it as approved. Okay. Approved knowing that the changelog approved but do not merge because this will become the content of the how do we safeguard this? Yeah. The only people who can merge or people who read these comments so that's fine. Content of the 2.320 changelog. The 2.319 changelog is a security release. No changes except security changes. Okay. All right. So 2.319 changelog done. Any any other concerns there? Can we go back and look at the raw stuff you were looking at for that? I saw something that's either a term I don't know or it's a typo. Okay. Let's see. So you want to look at the at the text here? Okay. Yeah. 5853 is a waitility of an actual word that I've never heard. It's a library name. Aha. Okay. And that's that's why it's a comment here. So yes, there's a library that was upgraded. No users don't actually need to be told that we upgraded that library. Okay. Okay. Cool. Forward. All right. Okay. Onward then. So next piece. I drafted the Hacktoberfest blog post last night. Hasn't been reviewed yet. Here's how it looks when rendered at one of the screen sizes. And Meg, your feedback has been incorporated. Thanks very much. Okay. So the video is now there. I can look at that. Yeah. So this this thing is working for me just fine. Oh, I don't I'm completely perplexed why it didn't work for you. But please try it. Okay. Okay. I will try again. Yeah. Actually, let's go on when we're done of this. Why don't you stop sharing and I'll share and try it again with everybody. Oh, that's a good idea. Okay, very let's do the rest of stuff on here first. Yeah. So so I now one of the things that I was worried about, I did not include your improvements to the security docs. I think that's fine. You're okay with that? Yeah, because they're not complete. And because of Daniel's other obligations, I don't know when they will be. Okay. So, so we're going to let them ride for now. Great. Yeah, I didn't see it as part of Hacktoberfest. And so I'm happy. Okay. Any questions, any topics we need to discuss on security restructuring? No, just there's I'm just working on other little bits and pieces and Wattic has started reviewing some of those. But everything is going to have to be on hold until we get that huge PR that restructures everything merged. Great. Okay. I keep telling Daniel, take care of yourself first because he's over. Yeah. And that is correct. He's very, very busy getting ready for this security release on Thursday. There is no way we should disrupt him with this with this with documentation restructuring while he's working. Moreover, there's no way he should feel guilty of being keeps apologizing to me that I'm having to wait. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. Right. Yeah. Thank you. That's exactly the right approach. Sometimes people are so conscientious that they are harmful to themselves. Thank you. That's yeah, that's why our best people bring themselves out. Let's stop that. Right. Okay, good. So ready to merge ready to review when experts are available. Yeah, good. Excellent. Okay. So now I've got an opinion question. And then I think we're ready to switch and have you share after we get this opinion question. So Darren and I have completed the five video tutorials on adopting a plugin. And it was, I kid you not, it was a lot of fun. We had so much fun. It was just he is so good and you are the perfect addition. It's just he is he is absolutely marvelous. And what a treat. And we're going to now embed those five videos into this tutorial on how to adopt the plugin. So what we've got is we've got contributing to open source was a workshop that CloudBees funded my development of it for DevOps world. And so now what we've got is a 21 page document outlining a whole bunch of small steps that any contributor can use to add to improve a plugin. And with 1800 plugins and 110 plugins up for adoption, there are lots of places that people can help us make improvements. Whether or not they adopt the plugin, these are steps that will help. And so the idea is each of these subheadings here becomes a single page on Jenkins.io in a developer tutorial on improving a plugin. And so they'll have a series of 15 or 20 steps that they can take to improve a plugin. The idea then is now the question for the two of you is what style of navigation do we want as people are going through this? And I'm now going to show you three different examples of navigation. So here's how the in the user handbook, we navigate by using these things along the top. So to go to the next, it handles it all for me. It remembers it. I just click and I go to the next thing. It's not always to me immediately obvious that that's big enough to tell me, oh, that's where I should click to go to the next. But that's how it's, this is how the navigation works. And as I go down the left column also also right. And as I'm navigating these things show in bold where I currently am. So, so for me that that has some attractiveness because it gives me a some visual cues where I am. Okay, so that's that's one alternative for navigation for this adopt a plugin tutorial. Here's another alternative. This is how the plugin tutorial navigates. It uses a list of here are the steps that we're going to take. And then echoes those steps in the top of each page like this. Okay. Okay, so that's that's an alternate now for me this one is daunting because as a reminder, the list is much more than four steps. I was thinking that myself yeah. And for me putting it at the top here. So with 20 steps here that's going to be a serious distraction to the reader. Right. Okay, so that was that was option two. And now I'm going to show you the third option. This is the one that I like least of all of them. But it's another option and this one is does not offer a top level table of contents but each at the bottom of each page is a hyperlink that takes you to the next thing with a continue to this. And if the pages are short enough, the problem for me with this one is these these contributing to open source steps actually many of them are independent of each other. So I do not have to have completed all the steps prior in order to successfully complete one of the steps. Right. And so having a navigation model that requires that I navigate through every page just feels like let's see where to go this one. This thing really doesn't have a table of contents on the left I can use to navigate or any other way that I can navigate. Right. It might be hard to go back to things you want to read again. Right. Right. The traversal backwards is also difficult. It's like oh there isn't a go back. I have to use my back button. And I can't see if I'm looking for one piece of information. I can't just glance and see where it is. That's a good point too. Yeah. Yep. So so back to the the the first my first preference for the moment at least is to attempt to get this style of layout and have it be placed in the now I got to go to the right page to show where it will be placed because that's the other part of this is it's a little awkward to say hey we're going to do it because this page does not really have a table of contents on the left. Oh good. We could restructure this maybe that's now I hadn't thought of this but maybe that's a better approach should should the developer handbook just be structured like the user handbook. Yes maybe yeah goes up that way it's consistent. Okay so now now let's let's test that by looking at some of the contents here so the reference documentation this I think of as a table of contents to the developer to a developer handbook and when I go to this one hey here's this nice you know this so this really does have a reasonable sort of navigation model and might fit with the whole developer what do you call it the developer handbook say okay this is going to be the developer handbook and we're going to make it like this. Yes so have it look like this one user handbook so we would have developer handbook and it would be a top level thing. Yes okay all right that's a that's a much bigger thing but I I think I like that any any objections to the idea of a developer handbook. None. Preference is to okay and that may be something restructure the developer where what have we got here we've got yes restructure the developer topics into a developer handbook are modeled after the user handbook with chapters underscore chapter dot yml definition and then sections for and now the sections would be plugin tutorial adopt the plugin tutorial oh I think it was create a plugin and then the other topics were reference document oh reference documentation how to guides this is like a random comment would be better to have those above like if when we're ordering it like above the plugin tutorial yeah yes yes you're right absolutely yeah and maybe what we should do is how to guides first right the highest frequency things first yeah I look at is like if we're rolling down through the your experience with Jenkins like all right we're getting started here's some good reference and then now you're getting now you're getting to the more advanced stuff here you're taking over either you're creating your plug and you're taking over one yeah okay good okay so we answered we answered the question that I had on how to structure it that's that's much more work but it's something that dirage and I may be able to make some progress on and work together just thinking about it it's yeah you know what it would feel better if if the developer documentation had more of a navigation sense that the user handbook has it just developer documentation this is all about developing plugins right well it's all about development topics and so I would say it's even more than plugins because there are things for instance in the how-to guides on how to do how to do localization how do you do translation right and so how do you do how do you do um well what's the architectural framework how does it how does Jenkins think about itself and these kind of pictures okay and then I should turn this into too much work I mean the architecture would be really nice for system administrators too yes and I think I think that's an interesting idea that we might want to reuse this architecture diagram in some of the documentation and some of the user handbook right because that thing I I confess I reused it in a blog post because I think it's a thing of beauty oh really with this oh yeah yeah put that everywhere exactly it it's it is really a well well considered thoughtfully structured and understandable introduction to oh wow yes here's where this goes and this goes yeah so wholehearted agreement there all right so back to so we've got model it after the user handbook and now the question is how yeah so that's that I think answered it great right any anything else there if I go to the Jenkins IO docs top am I going to see the developer guide then if you go to the if you go to the very root what you have here is documentation developer guide okay okay and we have documentation user guide that is not a terribly attractive entry point it really should oh I know why because it this thing really should open to this page right right because truthfully the that page isn't even accessible any other way and this thing doesn't help us that much the whole structure is just a mess you know and given that we don't have the resources to do some of the basic stuff it's like sort of need to look the other way but right because the only thing is I'm a developer who's writing applications that are being built by Jenkins and I go to the Jenkins docs and I see developer documentation I think that's for me oh oh so you're you're gonna take me a while before I figure out oh no it really isn't unless you want to up your game yeah so I'm that is a problem I'm not ready to solve yet no I think that's a that's a much lower threat than some of the the requests for hey give me more help about how to use pipeline give me give me more examples of pipeline so I'm I'm less concerned about people who come here as a developer who's using Jenkins there is a quick fix go back to where you just were that user page okay use guide this one um right there those the first section we take that material and flip it and make that the top when you open the developer documentation at least immediately say this is documentation for people who want to extend the functionality by Jenkins oh oh I see your point yeah so that when they so an introductory page like this for the developer guide which would say the developer guide is focused on people who are developing Jenkins not developing other software using Jenkins as a tool that almost says I almost is there it could be a little clearer but right so that's our I mean it's not a perfect solution but at least if I open it I'm quickly told this is not for you go over there yeah well and and here as you said here it is if you want to extend Jenkins by developing your own stuff read the developer documentation good okay all right so this yeah this feels like I think what we just did is we just described a google summer season of docs project because this this rework here is is significant rework to get things into a place where hey it would it would navigate easier etc and where the the navigation of the user user documentation and of the developer documentation would be similar yeah so I mean I can already see that look there if we jumped there if this link took us to user documentation home that's probably that's probably a better choice even though this link says user guide right okay cool that covered all the topics I had Meg are you ready to for me to switch off screen sharing you share your screen and let's look at that video okay okay I've stopped sharing my screen oh hi dear Aj yeah thanks for being here sorry we were just blissfully going along in conversation without paying any attention yeah no problem I'm just very sick that's oh oh you're poor I'm so sorry to hear that you do not have it is this is still the early hours of your morning you do not have to be here if you're not feeling well dear Aj no I was just missing the docs office so I just joined him just to listen to all of you oh thank you that's very kind of us sorry for the voice it's just not that good to hear well and since you're here we've got a question for you from the earlier session so let's Meg's going to test drive a video hyperlink for us here and so you'll need to look at the content of the files for you rather than this okay I'm trying to think where I got in the link yeah so go to files changed and and look for youtube there it is there we yeah there you go pick that so now you've got to cut it carefully perfect now I don't know what open link in new tab is going oh good it did behave way I hoped it would okay so that looks that is not what I did last night though they got me in trouble but it may be just the nature of this thing is where is it in here oh okay so here yeah so if you if you click that was where I got in trouble right and this thing that you what you what you're good okay what you're seeing there for convenience for reviewers I pasted a picture of the blog post for reviewer convenience so you see what it looks like on the page but the links in there are definitely not clickable there's no map there and so when you click at all you get is the picture okay okay along okay I failed to read your comment that's I need to learn to read more carefully you say it right there there's a long skinny picture of this blog post I thought I don't know where you'd ever get a long skinny picture of this blog post but okay what do I say that from the yeah from the preview image or the blog yeah right okay great and you're talking in third person it's like I'm dealing with my twins again that's just a life or Donald Trump unfortunately no wait a sec let's not get that's not good I mean he does that you know oh okay we we used to sit around dinner table and have to lecture the children please stop talking about yourself in the third person I need I need you to say I right not not your name okay now how do I resolve this wait a minute scroll down a little bit and you'll see so it's not showing um oh it should that's interesting so uh don't worry about it there's there's no no maybe you have to resolve it yeah it may be and I can certainly resolve it knowing that you've knowing that you've reviewed it that's good enough okay so that does that and oh and I'm great so and you can you can switch unless there's something else you need to share you can switch off oh there we go stop share okay let's get back to where I could stop sharing so dirage we had one question for you um I'm going to share my screen again so that we can look at it together and use the notes so right here what we one of the topics we started with early was adding more copy editors for Jenkins.io um what we've got right now is there are four of us who are copy editors me Tim Jacome, Oleg Nanashiv, and Rick in China and I'd like to propose additional copy editors so what we proposed was hey Meg has agreed that she'll she would like to be more involved in reviews but is not yet ready to be a copy editor but after a few months of mentoring she may be ready to become a copy editor and the reason for that few months of mentoring is to be sure that her reviews are comfortable confident that that everyone agrees oh yes Meg would have proposed and merged this and we agree it should be merged uh the question to you is would you be willing to take that kind of a role as well where you would become a potential copy editor and after several months of mentoring we would plan to promote you to become a copy editor so that's an easiest from my side uh learning experience and I would love to yes thanks great all right excellent okay great so I will I will use that that makes it convenient because Docs Office hours then can be a place where we discuss and go through that kind of mentoring so that's that's really good as well then excellent all right so if I see something that I think you should check do I just leave a comment that says I at mark you wait yes yeah just at reference me say hey or even better if you can just leave comments or or even go ahead and approve the pull request because as a reviewer you can approve it your your approval is non-binding and it doesn't let you merge but when you've put your approval on it that says hey I think this is ready to merge it's a good way for somebody else to realize they they probably don't have to do the same level of detailed review because you've already done a detailed review okay okay we'll do some we'll see what comes up and we can discuss that here great yeah all right and let's see Dira as you were here for the I think you were here when we were discussing the the navigation choices for the plugin tutorial yes okay good all right so any any concerns from you on the idea that we switch the navigation for the for the developer components to to be a new thing called a developer handbook no options from my side looks good okay great all right those are all the topics that I had any other topics we need to discuss today so I think we already went through the change log right we we did it was relatively simple and actually it's probably a good one for us to do a review so that you're aware of why it's so simple so the 2.319 change log that we see online this one is actually not going to be used for the 2.319 release because the 2.319 release is a security release it will only include 2.318 plus the security fix so any other changes that have happened during the last week will not be included that's intentional so that weekly users get something that if they were using the last weekly the security fixes don't have additional complicating things like other changes that would that might be a major regression so the the the thing that will actually happen is this thing we looked at today as the change log for 2.319 will actually first be visible to users as 2.320 one week from tomorrow or one week from today your time okay so the security release so the security fixes will be added by who oh good good good question so the security team adds the security fixes in a private repository okay the the security team writes the change log in a private repo the security team writes the writes the security advisory the security team builds builds the the the war file privately all right and then on release day they publish those things so it's this a security release is a very different thing because of the sensitive nature we don't want we don't want to disclose the vulnerability without having a fix ready when we disclose the vulnerability right okay that makes sense so do we have anything else to discuss because I do have one point we do not what's your what what point did you need to discuss yes so I was thinking about the Linux foundation internship so as per my knowledge it happens on demand basis like if there's anyone interested that's when Jenkins team thinks about doing this internship so what kind of topics do this internship goes forward something like that your your timing is marvelous for asking that thank you very much for asking because I'm about to pay him for that yeah I really should pay you for that because I'm about to propose some things to to my my employer proposing that we use Linux one or more Linux foundation funded internships to accomplish some very specific needs inside Jenkins so so what we've got is Jenkins core has some outdated components that need to be updated or replaced and and that's complicated right because if we take an example the guava upgrade that just arrived on the Jenkins on the Jenkins weekly release it will arrive next Tuesday 11.0.1 to 31 this was released in 2012 and this one is released in 2021 so we're doing a nine-year jump with that component and that's absolutely terrifying and a lot of work we have other things like the next target is juice after that we've also got prototype.js that needs to be replaced yahu UI the let's see what are some other ancient components etc so so those feel to me like good candidates for a Linux foundation internship the idea would be we fund a three month internship for a for one or more interns doing the work mentored by experts from the Jenkins community where cloudbees pays the salary of the mentors and I hope to persuade cloudbees to fund the outreach or the the Linux foundation internships so so that's one topic and that's already a significant one then there is plug-in modernization for key plugins and this is see the the workshop for the 10 or 15 steps that are needed in a number of plugins so is this the same workshop that you and Darren both will do it it is it's an it's an evolution of that thing yes okay okay yeah so it's it's the Darren and I did the five part video series and what what happened as we were creating that series we roughly added 50 percent more to it just by the act of creating it because we realized oh whoops here's another thing that can be improved here's another thing that can be improved and I'm confident that the rate of expansion of those topics has not slowed yet so there are there are more topics yet to be discovered things like getting rid of jota time using getting rid of jsr 305 annotations and using spot bugs instead those were things that we discovered switching to api plugins instead of loading the api yourself in your plugin those those kinds of topics that are hiding behind them are probably still other things like that another one have you heard of something called open search open search I have not I may get I think I just have a little bit I won't tell you my source but just got a little hint of it apparently elastic search search and kebana are going to no longer be under the apache license they're going to be a little more restricted and not an open source so amazon has forked the code from the last apache licensed version of elastic search and kebana and are apparently developing something called open search with that oh no so and I'm not not not at all aware of that one so that I don't know that we're using any of those components in janken so I'm not sure how we're not but they're well I know it hits I you know get gripped I think I love the day you taught me about get grip by the way it's I just love it for everything we do mention of elastic search and kebana a lot of times get mentioned for watching your logs is that you intersect with those oh right okay so observability kind of right and okay so and it it may be but I guess the big question is whether we are going to support both elastic search kebana and open search and I don't know how far along open search is if it's like if today I can use open search or if it's still a yeah I'm sorry it's like I remember reading about this was like a massive drama inside of like the open source community stuff I would almost say that if we're going to do it we should say all three right because like people are still going to pay probably to have their elastic search stuff so I'd want to make sure that we like we cover that from the perspective of and it may initially be sort of like LDAP and you know that they are essentially the same from the user standpoint yeah and whether they will eventually diverge we can deal with that then but right right um because I can imagine someone like googling elastic search and we still wanted to hit this so got it okay yeah so so the the I think the more immediate thing in that theme is a thing called open telemetry which allows observability of Jenkins pipelines and Jenkins operations inside elastic or inside dynatrace or inside other observability tools and and so but that's that's not open search that's not the that's not the fork the hard fork that that amazon has done this is a very different thing this is much more cooperative and and the elastic people are actually actively working with the Jenkins project on open telemetry and presenting about it and sharing how it's working for them right okay so we we've hit hit my time um if you're okay with this this one dirage let's let's plan that we have you and we'll do this include this topic in future office hours because i'm going to have a discussion really pretty quickly here with people about potential funding for several linux foundation internships uh to do these kinds of these kinds of things sure should we put the restructuring of the development guide oh oh yes that's a well actually that one's that one I would think is more of a google google season of docs right that's that's funded by google but restructure the developer topics into a developer handbook so how do you differentiate like which one is for linux which one is for google season of docs so is it because is it in google season of doc because it is purely documentation project yes this this google season of docs is well suited to things that are purely documentation and and maybe documentation structural as much as they are documentation content okay okay and what about what we did with chicode africa last year is still you know for the marvels of that project that work is still undone and i'm not sure that's really should be seen as much of a doc project it is more of a oh no and that that one is not but it's a for me that one is a different that is a different scope the linux foundation internships have the benefits that they are three months right and um at least when i read them $5500 compensation to the intern so so a reasonable compensation chicode africa is one month and $500 compensation right i was i was just thinking that maybe it would be good if we were maintaining a list of these big things that need to be done oh oh right then we could then when something comes up you know we could say oh you need a project for google season of docs and we can go and look and say this and this would be appropriate right oh i see what you're saying yeah good good idea that we should we absolutely should track those kind of things and and we've got pages like that for google summer of code so there's no reason we can't do something similar for google season of docs put put topics out there on the jenkins.io site that say hey here's here's let me find it because we may already actually have it documentation and now google season of docs there we go okay status page so here are project ideas that we've captured in the past and we can certainly put more there all right sorry i've gone over by along any other topics before we end for tonight get diraj i'm so sorry diraj you're feeling better are you seriously sick or just need time to recover um i think i need time to recover and we have diwali in two days so i need to get recovered yes yes really better soon that's the plan yes so so i the great excuse now i'm going to turn off the recording because now i'm going to ask a question that may be indelicate stop okay stop the recording