 So my goals are basically to improve solar health and in order to do that I've been diversifying the crop rotation in the last four years for our cover crops back into the system. In the future I want to bring livestock back in. We're kind of just starting to do some of this stuff. Just starting to get some fences put back up trying to figure out how to do it. I don't know a lot about livestock yet. I was throwing up the livestock in the 80s so I'm kind of just jumping back into it. And I'm trying to find ways to incorporate pollinators back into the system. So as no-tillers over the years we've been doing it since 88. Over the years we were predominantly just corn and soybean. And then so areas like you're seeing here is what we were having a lot of problems with. And this is why a lot of guys growing us went away from no-tillers. They got sick and tired of fighting these wet spots. There's no carbon traffic, nothing ever grows them. And as I sit out here is it dawned on me, these areas are always a problem for the first of July. Because after the first of July we're always trying to figure out what kind of cover crop to go plant into it once it dries out to try to get something growing in it. So the problem then is early season moisture. And so that's kind of my goal is to bring more carbon into the system and try to utilize some of this early season moisture because it worked well I feel for us is that we incorporated oats into the rotation away from just the corn and soybean rotation brought in rye. And we've also done some other cover crops that are grazing firmly and I'll get into that here a little bit. But the rye and the oats are using the water at a time when we're getting a lot of it and the other crops aren't using much of it. There's corn and soybeans that use much moisture. Of course it's all probably after the first of July. So bringing in something that uses that water early to reduce these areas in size. And then we've done some piling in the areas that we could straighten out by doing the cover crop and the rotation. So in this picture here, the one that you'd be probably on if you were right, that is at B7 I went through. It was in about the middle of June. I spread some stuff, the spreader in the back of the tractor it was a sugar beet, rye grass, rabe seed. I think that's the only mix I had. And anyway, as you can see, half that waterway that's green that's all cover crop that's growing and that's salty waterlogged areas. The other half was to control where I didn't do anything. That was one of the ways that we'd like to turn this around of course this is before our rotation started working for us but now we're raising small grains. These areas are also being managed better. And the picture on the right is where the pattern on my spreader had ended and as you can see you've got cover crop growing on the left-hand side and it looks much better than it does on the right-hand side where you've got stuff kind of turning to salt. And this had been CRP for about 15 years. It only took about two years out of that CRP. This stuff went back to that salty wet ground that's not productive. So grass if you take it out and try and just do corn soy means it isn't going to do if I have it for a couple years we'll just go back to what it was. This is another spot where that rye grass is growing well. So if a person was to go out and graze the corn stalks to fall just imagine these lower producing areas and he had something like this that he had to go out through. So some of the things we've tried you know we've tried putting cover crops to plane on top of oats and there's always so much stubble that the seeds don't get very good seed soil contact or seed energy stands. So one thing we did here in 2016 is we spread it on the oats at about the 10th of July. So then that way we got the seeds down in the canopy and then around the combine over the top. That actually worked really well. We haven't done it since and the reason is that you know that year we had cattle be grazing cattle on it worked pretty good and I haven't had cattle since so I haven't done that grazing scheme since and I'll do it in the future but we've been doing some rye instead after smaller. Which in this picture here this was oats in 2016 sorry 2017 and then in the spring or in the fall of 2017 the right hand side was aircrafted on that was a 65 pound mix with grade seed turnips and rye the other side is the exact same rate exact same mix and that was primarily the drill and you can see the stance much better with the drill I don't know you know you're still getting a lot of benefit a lot of the stuff that was aircrafted on I wish I had done a little more exploring with it I'd like to maybe do some more some measurement this year in the future and see how much benefit you get out of running another implement versus having an aircraft do it but this really helped out with some of the lower lying areas we used up some of that moisture got a lot of really good soil covered we dabble with some odd grazing my friend Jim Fanning and I in the neighborhood we do double grazing together this is some structures that we use this was a rye cover crop that we grazed on this was two years ago and this like I said we're getting some fence put up and trying some new things and hoping in the future we can bring this in consistently in our rotation and if we don't have the cattle ourselves we can at least lease it out to somebody that wants to earn some cattle on it and I wanted to incorporate this picture but this is as I was going to plan a rye-vech mix in the combine them and separate the mechanically sell two separate crops well the hairy veg price fell out this particular year so we burned it down in the spring got a good kill and against my best judgment I chose to put conventional beans on here to kind of hit that conventional market and I thought the veg wasn't going to come back but it didn't I was real unhappy with the way this field ended up looking interestingly enough when we combine it half the field had the veg half in and it was within a half bush leave each other and yield but the interesting thing is when you walked out on this it was just absolutely buzzing and I mean it was unreal the pollinators throughout in this bean field of veg and John Lindgren had a poll stock that was doing a karenada study of all the fields and I had him stop in and take some insect counts and it was through the charts it was the second most diverse I think out of all the studies they come out here this is the second most diverse site and it was a mistake but it ended up not harrowing any not saying how to do this twice but it ended up hurting the thing this is just a picture of one of our co-fields and we're all and I forgot to mention in the grazing we picked some cattle and goats together and they got along well and worked really well so in the future we're trying to figure out how to maybe bring some pigs in and maybe do this on a bigger scale and the last picture this is that field I've shown you that I was drilling soybeans into the right cover crop this is actually in the right it looks like a thin stand that's just because it's drilled in seven and a half inch rows so it's always going to look a little thin and I guess for me as a guy that no-tills and drills that sell covers you can see really helps kind of control those early season weeds and so for me I really like the benefits you get from a right cover crop and that's it thanks everyone let's see if this is working I guess it is the thing that question I have in my mind after staying all the great speakers this morning and today was just why did they want me up here my name is Gene Staley my brother and I farm near Mitchell we have for 30 plus years our journey to better soil health started in the late 80s with the trip we took to the Dakota Lake Research Farm at Redfield the summer that we went up there we had a tremendous drought and so literally every field that we passed by on the way to the research farm was ravaged by drought when we got to the research farm it looked like an oasis and that was our introduction to no-till the next year we bought a 750 giant year no-till drill and we've been no-tilling ever since in the 90s we started experimenting with cover crops and we've been utilizing them on our operation ever since in different varieties so we knew that our soil was being improved through our no-till cover crop regime but we did a study this summer on our farm that really submitted in our minds the type of progress we were making using our system and my son who is a sustainability major at USD in cooperation with Anthony Bly did deep soil probes on some of our ground that has been farmed for 100 years 30 of it being no-till and then right across fence in the same soil type was made in prairie that's been in my family for generations anyway so the results there is a handout that's available on the way out but the results showed us that we had made tremendous improvements in our soils in terms of organic matter and carbon and we generally when we take on new ground that has not had a no-till cover crop regime we are generally looking at an organic matter of around 2.5% and so if you can see the screen there we ended up with a course native prairie which is the best ecosystem there is at 6.5% organic matter and our land that had been in crop for 100 years 30 of it being no-till was at 4.5% and then we went and they did an organic carbon study and once again we had native grass at 3.5% and our long-term no-till regime at close to 2.5% total nitrogen pHs and this kind of goes on but the full study is available on the desk so the challenge that we see in soil health I think lies in educating non-farming ag landowners our landlords I am not educated in soil science and so a lot of the times we're competing against people that don't do cover crops a lot of them take their residue off and I see the challenge going ahead not so much lying with the farmer because you see the strides in no-till cover crop that are made out of Dakota it's really educating landowners that hey this is not a short-term this is not a short-term thing you've got to cooperate together it costs money to putting cover crops and everybody mutually benefits if we work together to try to promote better soil health and on the ground we own and rent with that I'm going to turn it over to my brother Craig I'm Craig Staley before I start I want to make a little announcement on February 14th the Venture Oriental Venture Soil Health event sponsored through the NRCS the local conservation district South Dakota Extension and South Dakota No-Till Association so we'd like to invite all of you there it starts at 9.30 and the Highland Conference Center we have a good list of speakers and a farmer panel so hopefully anybody in the area can make it now like my brother said we started No-Till a long time ago after going up to Duane's research farm and I think one of the things that a lot of early No-Tillers like we do we're pretty good about knowing that we had to change the diversity when we switch to No-Till but the test part of the situation was a little bit I think of just the mindset of growing up in South Dakota I remember as a kid you know it just seemed like every summer the crop would drop out so the idea of trying to raise a cover crop and use some soil should just seem kind of boring so it took a long time to really be able to start using intensity to the right degree and I remember starting a work on Jason Miller and we were trying to figure out a way to put different cover crops in behind our wheat stubble and we started out trying to grow different kinds of clover and things like that we just couldn't get the right intent, the right growth in the fall and we weren't getting enough water usage so we ended up pretty much using the same kind of mix a lot of people do I mean right now behind my wheat I'm putting in like the pictures I got up here is old wheat, radish sunflower Ethiopian cabbage and blacks mixture and I guess one thing I have learned that the oats having some oats or barley and they're not live it does a pretty good job of suppressing the winter wheat I mean if you just put a broad leaf mix in of wheat or wheat if you have oats in the mixture it does a real good job as you can see it kind of shades out some of that wheat and it seemed to have an effect of helping some of the most broad leaf crops get started to end up with a better stand and so we're trying to get that planted you know I mean one of the key especially in my area is trying to get as much growth as possible so as soon as we get that combat this year I planted it on July 28th or so and you want to get as much growth as possible trying to get increased intensity of water use and the other slide I have here is a picture of this year I'm sure you've read a lot about people trying to split real corn so what I did was I'm on 22 inches so I would plant two rows of corn and then I'd leave a 44 inch blank and then I'd plant two rows with the idea of broadcasting cover crop mixture and coming back and that's your probably doing another year of corn right down the area that I've done that 44 inch gap and so about B6 I went in there and broadcast and treated urea and then I had also in there a cover crop mix some red clover curnsome clover some annual rye grass and some radish and I got a pretty good stand because it rained the next day but actually this year the corn even those wide row 44 inch rows the corn bruised so fast that had a tendency to it did shade an odd level but I still got pretty good growth so I think that would be something true and the other what we've been doing for the last four or five years is buy on annual rye grass about the 10th to 15th September and there are standing corn stocks that plant soybeans in the next year and we've had pretty good luck I just kind of watched the weather and just ready to go and have the airplane ready to go and when it looks like we're going to get some rain it's called when they depends on the seat about the bushel of rye and they get a lot of acres covered and then I will drill some too I mean the one advantage of the airplane is you get on so much sooner and you're not doing all the I mean when you drill those corn stocks you have some leaf logs from wind so I've done about four or five years so that's worked really good and you can see I have a picture there you can see it with them that's about two weeks after they applied it you get a pretty good stand and I usually like to let it grow until there's some boot stage in the spring trying to get as much growth as possible and then so I try to let I probably let it grow farther than a lot of people might too because I've just tried to build as much carbon as I can and try to cycle nutrients and use some of that extra moisture and the soybeans really come through really good and the other benefit is when you get that much residue after you combine combine the soybeans and it looks almost more like weeds though but it does soybean residue so you have so much residue left on the ground and then one of the other things that we like to do is you know we have a lot of we're in the Prairie Palo region and we have a lot of wetlands especially in the farm land that we own and probably the only farm you know let's say in 100 acre fields we're farming about 80 of it and all the other wetlands we usually plant to CRP and have a lot of different types of CRP with pollinators and stuff you just see so many people that fight with wetlands and instead of having a permanent cover on them they're out there burning and hacking away it's just defeating the purpose of trying to use some of some excess water so we plant to CRP and as you can see I mean we have some areas a few fields that we've had haven't done a very good job of cycling or having intense enough water use and you can see the salt you know the saline areas on the down slopes so we've done those as you can see the yield map on how bad it hurts your yield so we've been putting a lot of those into wheat grass and alfalfa and even just it only takes about two years where that ground was pure white for that to fill in so instead of fighting those areas and losing money on them as well we plant them for some vegetation so I mean we would just keep trying to use more cover crops in our operation and increase our water holding capacity and turn it over to the next speaker, thank you I heard Steve Otter at Farm Down by Salem I guess we got started on this journey I didn't exactly know what the goal was I guess in the early 80s but far from it with my mom and dad we only had to cut costs back then so we went to no-till and narrow rows to get the quicker canopy save some chemical costs there we started out on 19 inch rows on corn and soybeans and that did that for about 10 years and no-tilling just made a lot of mistakes I just wish I knew now what I know now back then but learning more about the soil that's why I think the soil part of this is pretty panel to what we need to know when we start no-tilling even reduced tillage is always good too but to work your way to no-till we got through the working end of the 90s and then I went to 22 inch rows just for more common equipment we got livestock in there cow-calf operation and going through the 90s things just didn't seem right either lost my dad along the way in 2009 here so did some more thinking and labor resources getting kind of minimal as you can see my wife and I got three daughters they're younger I'm quite fully engaged in the farming aspect yet maybe down the line so that's when I started looking more using my no-till and something to complement livestock more is to use the cover crops and implement a small grain in a rotation I just kind of plateaued on our corn and soybean yields I just thought we needed to shape it up a little bit and start reading more about understanding the dynamics of soil and that's where I started implementing that way we just doing a lot of reading and all the research being done implement the cover crops decided to use that for a winter feed source instead making bales or silage or all hay all the time feed the livestock and let this livestock spread the manure around save myself some more labor for means that locking them up in a yard and having to haul it all back out said there was just a lot of not understanding the full picture probably of along the way of mistakes learning how to set equipment being patient in the spring before you plant with no-till but soil will really tell you when to plant so I think some of these other slides here from the soil health school had my farm this last September good crowd we just set it up in my all of my farm there we cleaned up the shed to host the classroom part of it and then had some demonstrations inside here worked out and then we got out in some field exercises you can see that some of the cover crop I had that was about six weeks long at the time did some soil bits learned a lot about my soil that way it's one thing if you want to host a soil health school put your hand up you learn about your own farm too we did this is where we did a compaction study and one of the things that surprised me is I took a loaded combine loaded grain cart and two wagons full of grain and drove across this here and we had to look kind of close to even see where the compaction was in the soil when we got done a lot of my soils were going from probably about two percent organic matter to four probably ten years or a little less even that's really impressed me just that things can actually change and change for the better that way that's just understanding your soils a little more and how to work with them one other area this fall it even surprised me I guys are talking about combine ruts and tearing up the fields I didn't cut much for if any tracks I would say maybe some that are three or four inches and some real low ground I went through in combine I don't plan on even touching them they'll level themselves out over time so that soil structure just really carried the combine even in real wet conditions so I just kind of shocked myself even what was happening there said here's a part of the school too that we do part of a grazing study or grazing demonstration how to manage the use of them cover crops too some turnips and radishes that were in the mix part of learning what the crops to plant your cover crop mix I change it every year and look at timeliness of planting for how much cool season or warm season grass to use I always incorporate turnips and radishes I think they're really a bit soil break up the soil for them using those about a seven or eight weight mix is about all I use there's but I'm still learning long ways to go part of the other soil part I didn't understand earlier on I said I didn't know exactly what the goal was I didn't realize how much of our soil erosion was taking place with wind and rain or water runoff and this is what I really like is caption this winter moisture and hold it over till spring and now I've understood that the soil can hold that better with my changing soil I can capture that water and use it all over the next year with my favorite winter friends in this picture I'm in one of the soil soil pets here and if you kind of look over either one of my shoulders there darker part of the soil probably gained about five or six inches of organic matter into the clay that's turned over about the last I'm assuming 30 or 40 years probably but the amount of seeing wormholes even going down through the clay and there's a little bit of rocks mixed in with that and just to see the activity in that how much we're actually improving in and on top soil there that was kind of eye opening to me there how much you can actually do actually change your soil this is a root pet we dug straight into standing corn so we could see the roots how far they were traveling down see all the roots that would travel down about three four feet following the worm burrows that's about all I have I just said it's all about getting educated and understanding what you will where you want to go I improve your soils and probably just understand your soils and the weather conditions we need diversity keep following mother nature probably one point I didn't touch on is about 25 years ago I got got 150 heifers in a March rainstorm said enough of that so I start getting in the middle of May and kind of came up with that when this mother nature told the deer to have their young this May and June so I said that should be a good time to try to do that so it's worked out yes we're planting corn but the cows sure take care of themselves they're busy too they just don't take much attendance to them and their calves so I've increased my selling pounds because I'm selling more live calves so thanks thank you guys very good awesome so we got mics on the floor anybody got any questions everybody jump up at once now over here we got a two part question first part is going to a complete no-till system what has been your main way to work nutrients such as phosphorus down on the ground I mean I know nitrogen that's an easy source it moves down to the ground on its own pretty easy but phosphorus doesn't move much on its own so what have you done in a no-till system then the other part of it is what have you seen in adjusting planting dates by going no-till when you don't get the soil out this fast in spring and say you do have a really wet spring and you stay no-till so you don't dry it out at all for the phosphorus actually that's where a cow come in to me I might leave my hair a little bit to spring a little bit and the hoof action will kind of work that down a little bit otherwise I do some infero with my planter planting dates that's probably the biggest thing you had to learn to be patient and let it warm up I've been following the last few years and the cover crops probably changed that as much as anything soiled my cover crops and bear soiled meat and ground and corn stocks and they all warm up about the same now we're putting top of fertilizer in the rows where we and the other thing you got to remember when you can broadcast phosphorus you got enough living roots there being no-tillers enough living roots on the top that it'll utilize that phosphorus even if it isn't very deep down in the soil so it's different to the tilt system you don't necessarily have to have it the roots will be enough on top to use it as far as planting sometimes it just depends on the year and what you're following you just have to have maybe a little more patience and it's not really you're not harvesting anything in May or June it's what you get at the end of the year so sometimes the no-till starts to go slower then you get hot dry periods and that catches up at the end of the harvest so you don't have to have patience to wait till the field conditions are right yeah I guess my answer too is that when you're no-tilling you're promoting micro rice they'll punch a growth and they're going to take care of the phosphorus for you I have a friend of mine that's a big no-till skeptic and I got into a very good about this year in the last year and I told him just that he would believe me and I said well I take tissue samples every year that would show that and you know for like warming up in the spring and fighting the wet spots or whatever I mean it's like I agree these guys the cover crops are huge crop rotation is huge but then like the proper cover crop selection of what you want to do like for me in the past I tried putting some corn on oats and we got a stripper header so it's a little bit different than if you're straight cutting stuff but it was such a thick mat of oats I think it probably hurt me and I delayed planting a little bit and I cover crop with a heavy broad leaf mix that year before I wouldn't have struggled like that trying to get my partner so you don't got to be kind of that's what I learned is you got to be real careful what you can take for what you want to do and figure out what the sequence need to put something I got one over here oh just the use of rye as a cover crop or maybe rye blend it say you're going to go in there and drill soy beans the next year determination can be called and I've seen the roller crimpers does the land roller do the same thing any advice I guess I haven't used a roller I know one person that does but there's cuts it more so it makes more of a clean cut I guess a little better cuts it off breaks it a little better so I'm just laying it down yeah you have to have some kind of crimping action if you're going to roll it and you have to be careful about the timing too I'm not rolling mine I'm just terminating with chemical so the main thing is either you want to terminate it like a week out or plant it green you just got to be careful not to terminate it like two or three days before you plant it because it doesn't even have issues I asked a couple people the same question I wondered the same thing and the answer I always got is you've been a problem I want to go with something with that Chevron shaped deal on roller crimpers I mean you just have better luck with that I guess I just don't have enough ride in my mix or anything that I worry about it I really don't burn anything down in the spring too much anyway so it's a problem I guess for me I asked Ray Archuleta the same thing when he appeared in the summer and we needed to buy a roller crimper and he said no I knew it with my car he did his old car with his car since you guys have been doing cover crops have any of you been able to decrease the amount of inputs on either fertilizer or herbicide insecticide for me just bringing in that third crop kind of breaks up the pest cycle and we we used to just put insecticide in the beans no matter what and even go out and scout it and now we started doing IAPM we'll cut the CSP program partially but I think maybe at most two, three hundred acres of beans a year now maybe spray one field maybe sometimes I don't spray we used to spray all of it that's probably the big one for me you know the rye really does a good job of keeping the weed flushes down for sure you can definitely tell the field that has the rye on it the post-emergent spray and there's just a lot less there to have to worry about yeah I've cut my air rates on fertilizer down what you call a pheromone but I'm definitely cutting rates and I'll cut them again this year some more probably down to about I figured last year six to seven tenths of a pomegranate nitrogen for bushel put 30, 40 poms D&K on I averaged 215 corn last year yeah it's changing weeds back for them also just doesn't seem like it's as much challenge there's diversity with that other rotation you don't have the herbicide resistance either insecticide I don't treat my beans and when I plant this year I'm going to plant untreated pomegranate yeah I would say at the end I'm averaging about 0.7 0.8 on the corn the one thing you got to be careful of is like you have brassicas in the mix they use quite a bit of solfer so you want to make sure you have put solfer AMS on my corn I guess when it comes to traded corn I don't do triple stack or smart stack anymore I'll just either straight round up some conventional or sometimes VT2 the only ways I do that is in case there's a certain variety I like sometimes you can't get it you've got to go up to VT2 or whatever when you use rye as a cover crop do you ever see it show up in the oats and wheat in the past yeah and the way I got around that is now I switched and I do the oats on corn stubble and that way you'll have it and if you drill it it all gets in the ground and then you get a better germ so you don't get those stragglers that come in the future yeah you're soybean corn crop after the beans now you've had two years of cleanup and that's kind of how I got rid of that but yeah that's a problem the millers don't like it and I recertified seed and they really don't like it so we've been able to do that and you know one thing too is when you go out and scout your field in the spring if there is any rye coming up before you plant your oats we just do a pre-plant burn down and I know that was still around I showed him and I didn't listen I didn't spray my field he had absolutely no rye to come up because he did that pre-plant burn down and I had a mess so I learned my lesson yeah we usually when we have rye we usually want to wait like three or four years or when it's back a week just be safe I don't know if you have to I haven't felt comfortable not quite yet usually there's not very much volunteer so there's just a few plants and I just don't the cover crop thinks I don't have a lot of rye in there so rotation doesn't doesn't present a problem I guess so you guys mentioned that your nitrogen rates are six tenths to eight tenths are you looking to go further reducing those rates do you use other sources of fertilizer or organic fertilizer in your compost other than just the livestock out in the field what's some of your other strategies when it comes to nutrient cycling are you giving credit to your cover crops I know I do I treat a colony of manure what's your opinion on different strategies with the fertility in general I guess I try to keep going applying it when the plant needs it I'll side dress and I do wide drops from my corn and give credit to the cover crops some of the soil test and it seems like the nutrients are there I'm trying to use the philosophy to make my soil work like they talked about earlier today is to challenge it and I think it will perform get the biology going in it it will release those nutrients that are there I guess I definitely think the cover crops cycle the nutrients and maybe give you some more and release later in the season it's just hard to say still in the exact science there's still a debate on how much lower you can go you don't want to give up a lot of yield either on the end for sure is using for soil tests are you doing the heating test and have you seen a lot of difference in what you applied according to that I'm just using the basic soil test I guess and my ground oil gets tested about every three years that I rotate that that field gets tested that'll test every field every year I'm just a grid sample on everything like every third year I'm just still trying to use use like the 0.8 or so on on corn the heating test is fine I'm just not sure if I have complete faith in it yet I just started doing the heating test this last year my first year I wanted to start as a baseline so I know kind of where I'm at and from here on as we start cover cropping hopefully bring in a livestock and at least have something to compare against you know in the future but you know, recommendation wise I think it's roughly all the same what it would have been had we used this the regular standard test so far anyway but as the biology increases things will probably do that'll change I think we've got time for one more question I guess it's easy to see the benefits of the cover cropping and the no telling as long as you all have been doing it where somebody was to make the switch this spring you're obviously going to see probably some decline in yield right away how long would you expect it to take before everything starts to turn around and you start to see the your investment start to pay for itself but every year is different I don't think I've ever seen any real decrease in yield because of cover crops and just sometimes like especially in our area yeah, have Tennessee have wet springs we're playing corn into that cover crop behind Wheatstone sometimes we don't see a huge yield bump for the first year but then maybe the next year just because of diversity the soybeans you'll see a three to five bushel bump there so I mean just really never know I mean you're going to get a benefit it just might not be the backing it might be two years down the road if I was to give any advice if I start out with a small grain you know if you try to go tilling after you have it been rotating and you've been tilling you try and plant the soybeans it's going to be wet and with corn it's going to be all the same and the nice thing about small grain is you start out with a small grain you've got a nice base and you can throw a cover crop in it right after that and you just gain two years in one and then that next year when you try and put a corn or a soybean then it's easier to get that much further ahead because you've got you know that much wet mass in the ground and it's going to help the gallery and a little bit better water management too kind of what I was going to say is start with a small grain get that get the rotation going, diversity get some cover crop in there I ain't saying I saw probably three to four or five bushel yield increased when I started getting some of this figured out but Staley said that it takes four or five, six years or so if I say I'd say when I started no-tilling and trying to figure some of that out we probably start over ten years to get it figured out and learn how to manage it better, learn to manage the soil better, be patient it's like I said it's a long-term investment that you're trying to change stuff we've been doing for probably doing wrong for 50 or 60 years by breaking the soil down by telling it and like I said just no-tilling you just got to commit to it too but you're thinking cap on to just understand you're going to manage it totally ever the big thing with small grain a lot of people that I talk to think that they can't be going in small grain those guys there's a lot of markets out there that you don't even know you got to get on the phone come to these things, talk to the guys have the booth set up and you'll be surprised to start getting phone numbers I had one friend four or five years ago he called me up and he wanted to raise a small grain I suggested to go he said you can't sell oats I got to raise wheat and anyways he called me this last year going out they farm about 50 out of 80 years they went to a three-way rotation he somehow through making all this phone calls got hooked up with a guy who got into the baby food market it was a real niche deal and he's getting a really good premium for it and so my suggestion is there's millers out there and there's all sorts of other things you don't even know about but you got to be out there looking okay, awesome well, let's get these guys around to applause for this case