 And I briefly worked first about religion on Taiwan, Christianity on Taiwan, and that mentioned some popular religions, and also edited a variety of books that they know from my monograph first, and then followed that by another Taiwan, which looked at not so perfect ROC in a variety of ways. Then Taiwan in your history has had a variety of other books, working with broadcasts on religion and foundation families and entities, working with Honolulu, and a book on religion in Taiwan, so I had a kind of credential writing on Lu Xiaoyan, the old friend, the former vice president, and then most recently, of course, a book on tech transfer that Doug Fuller and I put together. And continuing, trying to continue to work, my other early expertise is on the origins of the Anglo-American missionary effort in China, from 1807 to 18040, and so that's where I began, and in Taiwan I began going to church a lot, getting to know various groups. Now I guess I'm in a new kind of religion, the American economic role, the American advisory role in Taiwan, and the development of the Chinese economy with American health. Now, this paper is different from the formal work, this is the work of bibliography, a long bibliographical essay. And I think, in a way, the middle of the night, the old kind of crazy ideas have that idea. I think there are three themes, or like what we, if you will, I'm a lot narrow in, like a room cycle. And the first comes out of Tennessee Williams, and it comes out of Wach Du Bois, who's heroin, and she said I've always been kind of exact, I've always been on the cognitive side of strangers. And I think, in a sense, that's what writing about any country or any field does. We've been panning on what others have done before us. They have built the foundation, and we hope in some way to build upon that foundation. Now obviously, in Wach Du Bois's case, things didn't work out very well, but I think there is a positive going on in building this way. That's one thing that you have a foundation and you build on that foundation. The second thing comes out of Las Meninas, the famous velocity painting of the King and the Queen of Spain. This is in actually this form, we wrote the problem for the first time with it. And it is used by Foucault as the beginning of the first chapter of his book, The Order of Things. So what he uses it for, to show it out in some way, is that painting marks a major parody and shift in the nature of society. The old world represented and now changing in what is being done. Because that's a picture of an artist painting a picture. And you are standing where the people being painted is. Of course, right in front is the final which has been used by everybody including Picasso as a symbol. But the whole painting is changing the nature of what painting is. This is the artist saying, look at me, this is what I drew. And he is putting himself up front. I think the parody and shift in the book works its way through. I think that's another element when we look at bibliography, when we look at the development of the field, that there are largely sharp parody and shifts in variety of ways. The third kind of white motif is best expressed by painting that is probably about a mile from the Coral Gallery. In fact, in the old days, the Coral Gallery is right around here. And that painting, as we probably know, is the Barred Folly's Bresciaire. The Edward Monet Manetti masterpiece. And that's a world, when you see that, that you want to go into. It's a world that you want to be part of, you want to get a drink. It's a very, very powerful, and that represents to me maybe the objective we all have of writing on masterpieces. Of creating a work that will allow other people to understand the world that we're part of. And in a sense, these three themes kind of work their way in when one looks at issues of writing about a thing, writing about a country. And I will play with those themes throughout, okay? I'm not sure if that would work, you know? Bustle Angle, something like that. I'm not going to push. Now, this essay I will talk it through. Begin is divided into four parts. Obviously, you know, everything is right out of there. The first part is a proto period. I mean most of the history of Taiwan from 1602 until roughly speaking 1957. I knew 1602. The Dutch, I'm not getting on Taiwan. It's a simple thing. They're setting up the Dutch, East India. East India got me, and they're taking over a Batavia job. And from there, the Dutch become an incredibly powerful presence in East Asia. By 18, by 1625, they've planted themselves in Taiwan and begin to colonize it. And they do so not only with military forces and emergencies, but also with missionaries. And so the missionizing is very important. And they do convert our origins. And that material, there was a lot of material that was developed. And 200 years later, Robert Campbell, one of the major missionaries in the church, puts together an amazing book that translates a lot of documents and publishers. And this is about the Dutch presence on Taiwan. And you probably know that very well. I've seen that book, important number one as a basic source. I began this trip to Europe in live at a conference on the nature of Asian studies. And it was a young man working on exactly what he was talking about the Dutch. And what he says is that becomes his study book as well. It's the one accessible piece of work the book was published in 1903. I look at it in a different way. I look at it as Campbell's statement that is a British Christian missionary working down in Taiwan. That look, we are carrying on this tradition. The Hellenist tradition is in our hands and we are pushing it. And by us publishing it, we're making a statement to continue. I think it's important in that way. The missionaries coming in after 1865 do a lot of the early writing. Campbell does a lot. And then Mackay, of course, the great man out of Ontario. Pioneer is the north, northern Taiwan, the Taipei base. Married a woman who we think was a virgin. Establishes a permission and if you've been to the Taiwan translation, this is where it is. It has that patina base. It has done the Taiwan translation. The textbook, the nature of Taiwan and the ozone experiences. The books that come out of this period are a variety of them. There's this man by American creators. There's a small but nevertheless rich literature of contemporaries from the 1860s all the way through the 1900s when the Japanese have already taken over. And after that becomes the first kind of body work we have. And those that can be republished largely by the Southern Material Center, which is this press that is literally down the block from the press material headquarters in Taipei. And the very valuable place to know that. Now skipping ahead, you have the Japanese period and that there doesn't seem to be much coming out of there. Except one slightly crazy wanderer who doesn't know anything about China and Taiwan that's always writing books about it. I don't know what it was in real life. The books are incredibly negative about everybody, but they're a fascinating read of the ugly America that's the only way to put it. And he has about five other books which are equally not sophisticated. Now over here, there's a wonderful book called The Victory. It's by the Taiwanese living through 228 who had spent his time teaching in the mainland during the Japanese period and they're getting their own experiences from 228. And that book has also been translated into English. And in terms of bibliography at the end of my paper which is available to you all on, I have listed these books from, you know, what have I talked about them, so they're all listed there. Okay. You can follow it, I'm sorry, it's moving kind of. One of the more interesting books of the early period is by a man, a clear ancient date who is very, very pro. This is 1951. The only person that this mother doesn't like is John T. Woe. And he slams in talking about the white terror. And by then that's a very great thing for him to do because of course he was there in the Galaxy Command and so forth. Of course he becomes a very Christian man for the fun of a lot. But this is the first time you get the influence who John T. Woe is. And then of course John T. Woe can do no wrong. But the son can do a lot of things. A bit of history here. By 1951, protected by America, once the Chinese invaded Korea, American forces south, the United States went a step further. It was in the burning war and it put the fleet in the Taiwan Strait. And Taiwan becomes one of the first major targets after Japan of American aid. Now there's an argument that I would make that the American role in Japan deal and putting it into Japan in recent structure in Japan. And I think there's a enormous carryover from that effort to Taiwan. American foreign aid worked as well now as it did then. So Taiwan, Japan and Taiwan have always become two good examples of how military can help reconstruct a nation. Obviously the Japanese don't exactly like what happened to them before that, to say the least. But MacArthur and his crew were very, very successful. In Taiwan the Americans come in and they provide military aid they also provide aid agencies for international development they provide cooperative committees who help push various agendas that they're going on and not being able to achieve on China. They push land reform and they push long term economic plan. So a government that is unsuccessful and did try with the help of the Americans and funded by Americans becomes very, very successful and will do so. Now by 1959, Fulbright heads into the act and they start sending over scholars and teachers. And I think this begins a second period. The first period is kind of proto-Taiwan Studies. Second period really is the beginning of Taiwan studies, but it's a very different kind of Taiwan studies. It is Taiwan as a starting point for China. So if you look at the various books that are written over these periods, somehow China is in the label of much as there is Taiwan. And so what, you know, and this ultimately becomes your rather messy putt, because the Taiwanese experience over the hard European is the same as but very different. It's not the Chinese experience, it's the Minan experience in southern Taiwan with its own patterns of life with its own organization of family, with its own shiago, the constant battles between communities. Taiwan is also settled not only by Haka people, but by Haka people from northern Guangzhou. And so you've got an automatic ongoing battle between Haka and Minan. The other element are the Aborigines, who were there well before everybody else and are now being pushed out of their coastal homes over 300 or 400 years and into the mountains and then given the name mountain people. And then it returns to your argument that Aborigines is literally a translation of Aborigines. Either way, they lose mountain people, they didn't want to be mountain people, they became mountain people. Aborigines because they got hungry and scholars started coming in. For a group of people, all the people we know, these are the anthropologists. This is the age of the wolves coming in, and it was first by laundry. They can pioneer or margarine's work on women in Taiwan as exquisite and goes up to the state. Others work on issues of population and suddenly making the point that Taiwanese are not only mixed blood all the way through. And there's a lot of winter matters that Aborigines over time. Other people are there. For example, David Jordan and there's a major book on religion in South China. This is a comprehensive, these are all the basic books we read when we read about the anthropology of Taiwan. And each of these people come in and do their fieldwork. In some cases, there's fieldwork for the PhDs. One example is migrant column. A migrant is my boss at Columbia, he's not a member of the Leatherhead Institute today, but a senior lecturer at the Department. He has been involved in Taiwan since he was starting to go there in 1964. He's still involved, and he is an honorary citizen of Mainland, the town he wrote about in looking at the Chinese family and the economics of the Chinese family. And again, he continues to be interested. He has studied the Mainland but always in comparison with the Mainland. He is a classic figure in the field. His work begins here and continues over the years. It's been a pleasure to work with him and I know him well. This whole generation takes over and then their students start coming in. Bit by bit by bit. It's just one piece of it. It's also the development of very strong books about the evolving economy. This period goes from roughly 1959 all the way to 1978. January 1, 1979 is doomsday. It's the day of deregulation. But this whole period, it is Taiwan, but Taiwan is trying. The economy is varied. A number of them are within the government of Taiwan. The most prolific one is KT Lee. KT Lee was a non-ginger in studying physics. Went to Cambridge for a part of physicists. Then examined Germany and then became a technocrat. And moved to Taiwan in 1947 or so and rose up the chain in a number of other technocrats. He's a mid-level people. They really worked directly with the Americans in defining the nature of the Taiwanese economy. And he has a very good connections and a variety of ways and feels a very impressive variety of ways. And even though he's, you know, he's mid-level who comes to the eye of John Haschek and his vice president, Chen Chen, who is the real leader of Taiwan for years. The key moment comes with a typhoon in 1959 that is similar in nature to the Filipino typhoon that wrecked the country and he was able with America now to rebuild the country as a result. He becomes the Adenom and Tsar. Redefined the financial relationship between the United States and Taiwan in 1965 starts bringing in the American industry. He writes about everything he does for the next 20 years. He only gets in trouble in 1977 after being head of an economic program in the Department of Government when John J. Bowell pushed his John J. Bowell member who was trained in Moscow. He remains in some ways very much Marxist and didn't like the free market that was being defined by KTV. And he's pushed out of the way in a way that helps him set up the idea of a relationship between university and educational institutions. So the science part that we have and the network of chip firms and computer firms is really his creation. It becomes a model that is now followed in China that Doug was talking about yesterday. And he writes again and again about it and it's very good Marx frontline stuff. KTV has also been the subject of biography and I mentioned it a little bit earlier. The author was given access to KTV's material and it writes to be close to the subject biography. This comes a little later than the period I'm talking about. And the book should be recognized and you have the name in my material. You know a lot of these books and material. But KTV does a lot of writing as well. So we have you've ever been an anthropologist we have the Taiwanese writing about their own comment. Other interesting group of the missionaries. You have from 1947 or so a missionary presence that ships from China to Taiwan. Now was there already of course the humanitarian church. Chinese church is the mobile true Jesus church. And interestingly enough those two groups are probably some of the most powerful institutions on Taiwan in terms of and they are reflecting western Christianity but are also independent of the true Jesus church. For example begins as a product of the Pentecostal revival and the fact that many of the Pentecostals on their own come to China from 19... to about 19... Pentecostal revival to 1920 and the preaching is heard by Chinese and they develop their own version of the charismatic Pentecostal church. True Jesus is the best example of it. So you have various groups and you have groups coming in Southern Baptist for example and a large presence in China they move all these groups including the Pentecostal and their youth schools. It is a slanted view of popular religion but on the whole they get pretty well done. During the second period you also have the coming of the Catholics the formal Catholic church with the apostolic also there I live nearby I live near Marino I've used the resources of the library I've known Marino people I've stayed at the Marino chapter house and they are one of the windows they are the same to it it's Marino I know there's a lot of other Catholic groups out there but these people are socially active they work for society and if you're not going to decide to come to the church they're fine and an amazing group of people they basically introduce a different way of looking at things they're so highly socially oriented type of Christianity I would say this and I'd say it very bluntly what we tend to forget in the middle of the crisis is the Catholic church for the minimum of a thousand years has been a church working with people and other people I saw that a couple of weeks ago in Rouge there was a museum that was a hospital and a church of that role was still playing out the tragedy of the Catholic church which I'm going to talk about a little is that churches are 25% attendance and something like that now that's not me saying it's Richard Baxter but I don't know but now teachers in the University of California are saying this is an issue and it's an issue in the West as well now one of the most exciting most important of these people is Alan Swanson who is a Lutheran who is more totally a Catholicism and there are centers where this is pushed basically they work with American evangelical churches pushing out a body of very interesting literature now a lot of this comes to an end the America the Taiwan as China comes to an end with the recognition that in 1959 China doesn't exist as a country anymore that sounds harsh it doesn't have that diplomatic recognition like the United States does China does and months ahead the Americans figure out Taiwan Relations Act and create techno an alternative reality but through it all there is a group such as the American Chamber of Commerce that helps sulfur the blow the American Chamber begins as a very small group in 1951 they keep going and then as Taiwan begins to industrialize they become more and more important and by by 1979 they represent both Taiwanese Catholic figures and a growing American culture presence and for those of you who don't know there is a very good magazine that has been published since in the late years early 1990s called TAX published by the American Chamber of Commerce Don Shapiro is the editor Richard Bullside has been in that world before and this is one of the best that has sent unknown sources unless you are really doing every work in the kind of development nowadays it is violated with Chinese and English and it gives a very certain yet not propaganda in the economy of course great relations and every year they do a white paper telling the government of Taiwan how they should improve themselves they also have a doorknob a group of people from American Chamber of Commerce go to Washington every year and lobby for the government of Taiwan and the economy of Taiwan so it is an interesting role that they play I subscribe to the magazine I kind of contribute it to it but it is again a very very interesting role now we know what that transition was like when I lived there during that period there were some issues and then of course there was the rise of the EPP and the writing about the period is interesting as well a lot of people are entering a Taiwan that is changing radically the government has to clamp down some people are sent to jail we show the end Chen Zhu for example shares they are two very important and continue to be very very important Gao Muxue the head of the Christian Church is arrested and sent to jail for at least five years because he tried to help Shruti Duk, one of the nature leaders Island Duk, his American wife is driven out of the country H.D. Binghamton and then in 1990 returns to Taiwan and reunites with her husband who is finally let out of jail after a decade and the literature begins to reflect that there is more sharp literature but all the literature seems to be far more oriented toward Taiwan as Taiwan the old days of Taiwan China is not there anymore Americans who had the chance early on go to China and the great scholars of the midnight state and he was with us the friend from Jack he was in Taiwan for half a year in the next half of the year he was in China one of the first American scholars getting back to China looking at the history of China a whole group of other people start doing the same thing and gradually Taiwan as China fades away and Taiwan becomes Taiwan again a part educated in America on the reversible rights or with the going to American universities start coming home again Taiwan is a place that is open to them and so you have PhDs the first group of PhDs out of Taiwan come from the state university the smaller state universities good places but not elite year by year by year he starts seeing Stafford on the list he starts seeing Harvard on the list he starts seeing Columbia on the list but they don't some of them stay online or go back and forth or transfer some of them go right back to Taiwan and develop careers there in academia we put Alina over there Carolyn Sa was finishing in MA she goes to Columbia writes a brilliant dissertation about the Japanese period in Taiwan and returns home to the new institute of Taiwan studies most of the other people do the same thing so you've got a new group of people writing about Taiwan portalities with America bottom line American and European PhD particularly American and they continue to go back and that's important because what it means at this point is that there's an American orientation not only by the Americans going and experiencing Taiwan but by the Taiwanese who have the credential and also still write about Taiwan a variety of things so it's a double grade now to be honest about it the numbers have changed the PRC once it began to open itself up got the idea that the American PhD is good and now a lot of large numbers from the PRC are replacing the Taiwanese getting that degree and trying to return home but I think it's an interesting process you see this work come out you see a new generation of anthropologist Steven Sandbren does his work Robert Weller does his work a close friend of mine Paul Katz who is a specialist in Chinese popular religion comes to Taiwan does incredible work and continues to marry his entire life as a woman and who's also an activist who concentrates on Taiwan producing important books on the nature of the Taiwanese law the nature of the Japanese and the Taiwanese in the south the Japanese incident a lot of under work and that's almost a new style so a community evolved as you go to the Institute of Modern History as you go to the Institute of Sociology the Institute of Taiwan the Studies Institute Institute of Ethnology there's going to be Americans there permanently more there for the next number of months they go back and forth there's the evolution of a trans specific community and these people write as white war red perhaps but as white war red no Taiwan and I think your experience reflects some of that as well I think you have a lot of people who look like that and in this period of the 19 of the 2000 this new group comes in something else also comes in in Taiwan studies and that is the Taiwanese under the left so to say revolving level now more and more the government is saying hey we're on Taiwan we're not necessarily on Taiwan one of the things I didn't mention what I have to visit basically an occupational government that occupies a Taiwan that had been first Japanese and that could have been independent in its own way it imposed it in its own way now more you educated there's the more you about the trans newspaper there is a device that helps to improve health but this is a intercultural system imagine if the French had taken over British America their thing is now imposed and this is what happened when we were first there you'd hear the parents talking Tai Yu and you and the kids talking in Mandarin that was about change I think it's really true in my legal country as generations change some of that lies but the nationalists also imposed history history of Taiwan and history of China the China of the moment happened to lose one province is left and it had not been part of China but it had been part of Japan until from 1855 until 1945 I guess I'm very deeply what I'm saying that's their line but you can see that I'm not negative but the moment gone but the legitimacy was there because the guns were there and the imposition was there and the garrison and man was there we have to be it was the biggest art robbery in history they took boxcar after boxcar the imperial museum and shipped it to Taiwan and put it to a big mountain down in China and there it is it's good because during the cultural revolution how much of the existing art was destroyed as well as chemicals, etc and so what we have is the palace museums archives being the place that Western has been studied and you have incredible wealth of everything from some poverty to the great paintings to the famous piece of chain to the grasshopper etc which by the way made flux to a hundred pieces not the sort of painting next door or not the bronzes down stairs but yeah I'm giving my bias for that but that museum reflects the palace museum is saying boldly this is the stuff taken from the imperial palace and we don't care I hate to say this I was at the British Museum yesterday and I see some nice marble pieces taken from Greece some of the things in art got a little note that this guy could take as many big pieces from Northern Iraq I can't see there's options of New Zealand culture etc I guess it's a good tradition or something like that you gotta get there first but Taiwan is a very interesting mix that what happened in the 1950s in the 90s is that democratization say this whole John G. Ford has died he's replaced by Lee Da-Hui who is Taiwanese educated by the Japanese and the soldier of the Japanese army until he solicits an equity finishes degree of taiga in aproposal economics does graduate work in the states and then with the help of author who went to Cornell because that's where author was before he got to Stanford and gets his PhD and then becomes the rising star and becomes vice president mayor of Taipei vice president and then president and I think we have to say we're looking for in a long way he's a highly educated man a good politician secretly as an incident he's also made up of lots of Western men and that difference can be seen in 1990 he's seen their effort but he changes Taiwan in a very sensitive way and one of the things he does is acknowledge tutui and it's a dramatic kind of moment this had been basically the republic the local people were sick of the carpet bagging of the mainlanders and they revolted and the revolt went on with the government negotiating theoretically in good faith awaiting for the troops to come over the land and put the rebellion to rest killing between 10 20,000 people basically stopping the press materials from publishing their paper doing lots of things and essentially keeping the Taiwanese quiet until the 19th century and leader of the way gives recognition of that there's a monument in the new park in Taipei and I think it's a dramatic moment I always go to that park as a kind of monument to leader of the way and a monument to the recognition that the sins of the past had been at least enough what's interesting is I think Japan is still holding on to a lot of that war there are websites that are basically saying 20,000 people and it's all soldiers that's like etc etc in Taiwan the year comes in terms of its past and the leader of the way represents that that era sees democratization that it receives the coming of the democratic progressive party a new kind of politics is now studied and it's the age kind of a democratic politics beginning with the Bolshevik 1990 and then moving on and through the various stages and again this has been well represented by a variety of people the people who started TECO for example are involved in conferences 19 excuse me wrong in the early 1990s there was a conference held at Columbia and it was ninja gone and going down talking openly and it ends up with a very very interesting book about Taiwan and Conan's students was the key figure in getting the book off the ground it represents a new phase a democrat of Taiwan in which you can go overseas and have a conference the other example of that group of Taiwan is the work of Lu Xiaolian Lu Xiaolian is the founder of Taiwanese Feminism I was looking up to attend the conference in 1988 in Hong Kong she was the one we got to know each other and her article is in the book she's amazing she comes out of basically a business family she gets a law degree she goes to America and is aware of the feminist movement comes back and starts writing literature about feminists and is the pioneer of feminists and then is arrested and comes to jail comes to the states and various Americans they push her and say why don't you go home and get the politics done and she does so so you have this woman who's iconic of course she becomes the first female vice president if I want her to essentially get but she's already writing a lot developing a lot and she's very much a political feminist during the same period you have Lin An she writes a story and by the time she's 14 or 15 continues to write or major or the one work we all know I think I shot through the butcher wife devastatingly powerful and then a lot of other books after that and she is very political she knows who she really is and supports her work knows the other feminist and continues to be a very important writer so very clearly and I think it's one of the major figures in pushing feminism but there was a new book that I made mention of which across state universities that covers the issue of feminism very very effectively kind of biographically a major study of feminism on Taiwan a lot of stuff this work is done in the 1990s a new there's also the beginning of a study group a study that's going a lot is going on it is during the same period from roughly 1990 through this decade that Andy Sharp gets involved and had to say that I was working with Douglas Merlin the editor and we put together the Taiwan and modern world series and kept on going into the early 2000s publishing a variety of books and a varied body of work some from Taiwan some from America working on Taiwan Alan Bachman for example the political scientist at Tufts wrote a very great book on Taiwanese identity published in that series a host of other books and this kept going for a while until Sharp decided that they wanted to get in the textbook market I'm certainly happy they published my own book but I'm sad that the series or when the publisher went on to his own work he continues to be active in publication but for a while he had that in some senses I think what you have here is the follow up to a lot of the people who might get published in Sharp are now publishing their published I think the continuity is there your program becomes very very important in the book ownership finally new period I think the break is a new kind of Taiwanese sensibility Taiwan is changing in a variety of ways you're going to see this is what Doug was talking about last night investment going into the main line you see what had been on the Sharp side of the industrialist Taiwan seeming to in the environment side set industry overseas obviously from what Doug has said it is not as desperate as the American situation we gave our economy away and now basically we have the dollars and the dollars and the dollars and a couple of companies so far I'm being very good at it but I think it's not far away from reality there's often we have our Miami we have some high tech but do we have industry forget about the beginnings come in the 1960s I think nobody's been willing to admit that in the last few years I think we should acknowledge the back that we gave our economy away for a bottom line and Taiwan we've got to do the same thing in a variety of ways this Taiwan is changing this Taiwan is kind of losing its way and on the end gets to be president and I'm sorry to say it has been put in there as he may have been in Taiwan maybe not yet ready for the job and I know this personally there's a running battle between Lu Xiaolian who forever wants my publicity and Abien who doesn't need her saying that there are messy incidents that go on Lu Xiaolian in public says that Secretary Dan is having an affair with these translators she herself is the daughter of a quest material who is now in the seminary in Tainan then moved to the States Lu Xiaolian that was very publicity I mean one thing I find out in Taiwan is that they're like the British they loathe their sexual status and you're going to see one of these books that I ever get to is on kind of the Taiwan pillow book that all these things come out I will admit this I never told you this, dear this was in 1991 I talked to Liman and we are basically discovering discussing the love lives of Shurlinga very interesting interesting moments they feel why they can't this kind of thing and Lu Xiaolian got herself the vice president got herself in the news it was a wonderful job in Taiwan and that was going on and Leon herself got into a bloody battle with Sissy Chen who had been in America and then a media figure and they kind of tried to destroy each other on TV because of a book called Leon had designed one character who slipped her way to the top after Sissy Chen and she was sleeping with a variety of people including Shurlinga and I asked her she said no Shurlinga had better taste for that having said that when I met her she was helping Shurlinga arrange for another character and you can take yours from there but interesting moment that's some of the fun knowing people in Taiwan everybody loves that stuff all the way now this new Taiwan has to get a sense of itself I talked about this in an article about the paper I gave each conference something like that I think I disturbed a lot of people created a certain amount of the day this paper in its original form was written for a conference in Chao Teng Shui and in that version which I'll send to you I started by saying well I was wrong Thailand studies it's not that it's a lie and look at it this is my own answer to that so it drips into it but the trouble is that Taiwan is kind of as strong as it may be it's coming out of consciousness it's doing other things I think one of the salvation motivation of getting Taiwan in the news again is the new documentary filmmaker Xu Tai Li leading the way and a host of others producing superb pieces of work a couple of weeks ago in October there was a conference at Columbia helping together brought in two major filmmakers and people to discuss the most part of that and these were exquisitely done documentaries dealing with the environment dealing with religion and politics dealing with industrialization Xu Tai Li's work is great I know I'm a friend of ours I've written about her work but this new generation is also equally great and I think that should be known as well as the great movies that we have the way is there's a new Taiwan emerging more secure in itself shifting the industrial form of finding new things to do developing in Taipei that much better sitting in the subway making data from them having a fast line and in the old days it was 16 hours to get from Taipei to Taichung Taichung with a lot 2000 and even old friends went to the Presbyterian church and now two hour trip had lunch with them and he's now 90 something my Chinese grandpa actually used it in our house we got dinner with him and this was amazing having a nice big Taiwan is a modern country not more modern than the United States and a lot of the better modern they didn't have the Obamacare disaster they put in healthcare now I realize the equity issue in Taiwan might be in a lot of ways the equity issue is more better than Taiwan in the United States especially at least in Taiwan so you have a Taiwan that is redefining itself yes, mainlanders are there yes, there is more more integration in the storm there's also a greater sense of Taiwan's product there's also a greater sense of Taiwan has Taiwan that's emerging and so they don't want to be out of the Japanese experience mainlanders teaching at St. John's University got furious at me when she said your friend who's still there went to the Japanese Shrine the War Shrine and somehow paid on these scenes in that way you don't do that well, if you're trying to believe why not your men fought with the Japanese and that was what the war was I think that experienced in a modern way has been imperialized over the years but ultimately a good effect I mean, I wanted to say this a positive to imperialism the Japanese period was harsh for some particularly the Chinese but basically created the basis for modern Taiwan the Wollendom's edge was in a lot of ways not as sharp as it might be with the American presence and with the introduction yeah, somewhat more of a capitalist system the Wollendom continued on all these things have been various ways to be written about more and more honestly and I think the Taiwan studies is viable and important and in many ways Taiwanese are far more part of much of the work I should have said if you think about why they should set up this talk last night we did a book launch for their book technology conference but I thought it was such a good opportunity and having Mari here in London it would be really important that he spoke about his reflections on the state of Taiwan studies and particularly because as he mentioned he addressed this issue back in 2009 in the European conference this question about his Taiwan studies debt actually created a lot of debate I think it's really interesting to try and compare the ways that Taiwan studies developed in the United States and more recently in Europe because I mean if you look at a couple of those stages that you look at it's very very US dominated or once we move into the post 2000 period where the fuel gets a lot more diverse even in the early 2000 most of us Europeans were working on trouble we were presenting our work in America at APSA and then what we tried to do was to create something a kind of European version of what we were seeing in America I think saying the Amy Sharpe series and creating the Radish series and I was wondering whether you see any lessons that maybe American Taiwan studies could actually learn from what's been going on in Europe because the structure of the two fields is actually quite different where in America it's more diverse in a lot of ways you don't have people there I was part of this group on a technical ground where it was indeed Taiwan but again there wasn't the production of aluminum evenly on her recent books and reflected mainland issues as well as Taiwan issues and she's die hard a new young person they helped the locals to rebuild but she's made that transition other people know as well the problem I faced was in the Taiwan studies group at AAS there was not enough interest everybody had kind of moved off so I would hold meetings and not many people would be there until then that's what happened I think it's that there was a negative in some ways in studying Taiwan as Taiwan so everybody had to be across streets in some fashion the other thing they did was other people who were primarily in the mainland now rediscovered Taiwan so there's a couple people coming into the fold that are more interested and hopefully a lot of literature out there reflects that so the old Taiwan hands were made that Bob Leller continues to do very, very valuable work I really am still involved as an ordinary citizen so there's still people engaged and I think when more people come out of Europe we gave our papers together and mine was very straightforward as you see but she gave a superb presentation many ways more sophisticated than mine I don't want to start even we don't really believe in theory very much unless we think about it on our own but her work was incredibly rich and it represented a new level of work and I think it chose and she was to be one of the stars of that very, very good conference I think also the fact that there's a battle going on as well and that is that China puts money in the so-called Confucian institutes and attracts a number of people and seduces a number of people Philip Clark for example was an old friend he was from Germany but he taught at did a degree at the University of Vancouver and then taught at the University of Missouri for many years American Heartland and then got an offer he couldn't refuse he was able to return to Leipzig making a Confucian study now he started trying popular religion and he's great at but now all of a sudden he's transformed himself into a Confucian scholar why look at the artist see he has the money to do this happens again and again so we're running out of balance that's all a little more subtle they won't give money for the grants they won't give money in positive ways to push themselves though I will admit there are times when you they sort of say that it seems to be negative and one has to argue with them and demonstrate with them that you know we're not an old woman down in Taiwan anymore if that exists you know this is America technically there's freedom of speech minus certain agencies I guess but you know you have you can't do that you can't limit people in a paper they respond to and I won't mention the name what happens to be in Ottawa and major figure in the study of Buddhism in Taiwan from there and we all know it but this was a pre-aggression I told them after it happened this is what was happening they were out to struggle so they still show a degree now I guess we should be sensitive to a degree but not when it comes to freedom of speech so we've got that it's fun being in the network the new version of Cloudgate is absolutely wonderful and I listen to every old Cloudgate in Taipei and I think there is always a Chinese culture Taiwan's got to make something different from Taiwan number one they have clean air I remember that air in Taipei in 1978 in 1979 they had made those major changes now they did what I remember they said taking the street overseas and the bad air is there and low prices are there so low wages are there but the country has changed I think it's got to make those points by easy travel to America and so more and more people are appreciated or not appreciated at least they have the opportunity to see what's there the other issue is employment in Taipei in particular in academia it's problematic because there's a very stable forward population growth and so that and this was explained to me last week at that conference by the man who set it up on time that in sociology for example one out of three people in sociology will be in German academia they have overbuilt their system now they all have to make that a smaller system to come to terms which means that probably if they can Taiwanese PhDs with western degrees will go to China where they're making more opportunity possibly more opportunity but they change the dynamic a bit but I think Taiwan certainly will survive in a variety of ways it's shown its ability to you know building on what would hope that's the role the Womendong occasionally shows its teeth the fact that Albion is in Japan or what Jerome Cohn has said in his got sense if you know Jerome Cohn is one of the major lawyers and after the mission but also a major figure negotiating with the DRC and he was disgusted and said so Taiwan and China come together I think yes or yes the hard yes is democratization is that going to happen for a single future I think it will happen you know it's given up it's utopian socialism or Marxism and then you gave it up you read the details of the your cultural revolution and the red guard gave it up there but replaced it by an old-fashioned hard-nosed government was corruption at the edges and I don't know where it's going to go but with its problems there's a lot of workers like that I think Taiwan doesn't really matter he talked quite a bit about books books to what extent is classical literature influenced Taiwan and what about modern literature in Taiwan the classical stuff is out there I mean you go to in my experience I went to school for Chinese and we would read classical texts and if you look at the material they have from young kids all the way up and by the time they were 12 months or so they were starting to learn the classics now they also have an excellent series from the Simon & Press I don't remember a lot of their books too for example has an edition in which you have Judy felt how and then you have a whiteboard translation and then you'll get a great way to read the classics major books and essays and even in the public schools there's a push to the Confucian and this is what she fought against but certainly the literature is there there's also the old words that came to far off from the mainland and continue I'm not the expert I do know the expert she's one of the best people out there her two books kind of deal with Taiwanese literature and the nationalist movement and so on now the commercialization of the second volume and there are a number of other people trained in many ways by David Wong in Columbia and he himself himself in a major not only in PRC stuff but in Taiwan too very very essentially the one person I know well is Leon and I know her work and I know her so I can appreciate that my wife Silvia Lin are very important because they are providing access to the Chinese speaking audience they did Shafu and doing other novels trying to find out in Taiwan a lot of the other works Leon the close Weather and I think the literature is more participate I don't pretend to know people there was a book kind of kind of sort of like history and tango in the literature, which really had a conflict in that David Romaster came out from the student who did it wrong. And this book really does a very, very nice job of looking at a whole wealth of major books, including one novel, the novel, The Guardian Novel, the Super Guardian Novel of Leon, and lots of others. And I think if you re-book that book, you get a very, very sophisticated idea of the nature, literally the nature of the literature in the book. So I think that is ongoing. That's an important part of what is not my best answer. Professor, I was curious about Christian church, especially in the Catholic Church. My own paintings is with Fulham Thashwood, where I did Jesuits. They actually played a fine new role in first introducing the cultivation techniques up in the novel. And secondly, also training priests from mainland. I was told that Fulham Thashwood, the seminary, that's just the Jesuit seminary, they actually changed the priest's book to make it. And I actually made a priest, a training priest from the mainland. I have not checked out my toilet for a long time. I had friends at the T.M. Center on Philly who kind of disappeared. And Hale was a good friend, and she was based there for a long time. I don't know what to do with it. But I think, you know, in this entire day, that particular library center isn't there anymore. I think that was somewhat helped by the Jesuits. Fulham had an interesting program. He used that town to study the content of the law, and particularly heading his way of deciding justice and stuff like that, kind of. There was somewhat interesting happen. So they are in the heart of it. And if you go to that town, outside of the Reds, it's like some ninja temple, popular temple. So it's an argument. So you've got the Catholics in the middle of the big university, and they're surrounded by popular culture that sort of stare into the face. I don't want to be superstitious here, but to remind you, I was in the Baygon Festival, or the Baygon Monument. And in the middle of all of this are young Americans in white shirts, Mormons. And I've never seen a Mormon religious group of guys, okay? And to some degree, as much as Christianity is making progress over the sword, a lot of the kids coming in to the Taiwan for the summer don't know what the heck was going on. And they look around and they find young kids outside of the Lone John time, but I think I'm kind of a person who says, why don't you study this culture? Why don't you become aware of it? Lone John has always been the most powerful place that I've ever been in. It's Buddhist temple, but it's also a popular temple. It was always crowded, lots of going on, you can get a library of books. And then these kids from the states there on the summer camp from the school, they're looking at paying this school. And I would wish they would look and saw what was going on and then react. I mean, why is the true Jesus an effective church? Because it somehow makes its message real in a way that people cannot change and understand. It's talking in tongues in effect, everybody becomes a child in an odd way. And they work. If you've been to a true Jesus service, you know what I mean. At a given point of delusion, everybody starts speaking in tongues. It is weird when you first say it and then it becomes a kind of magical thing. But it goes back to any constantly quote in the Gospels, in terms of their justification for it. The tale of the horrible ones, we get the exact text. But they really believe in it and they follow it up. And these are the people who are very, very successful in converting the aborigines. They convert, they're successful in converting the time of the 80s. And yet, I have been accused of talking about the true Jesus by, I think it was the Methodist priest, the Methodist, of supporting this kind of Christal paganism, by talking so favorably about the true Jesus church. And the other church is the Defunct one, the local church, Washington, East Church. It's been a long time there, I guess, 2010, 2009. 2011, getting ready to do a paper. And it was wonderful how extensive the community is, how much people cared, and how independent the church was with their own press, et cetera. It was a very viable church. You go to a Pentecostal church, and that's a tiny church. You go to the Baptist church, it's 10,000, and a very valuable church, I'd say. Somehow, it held power in its head. First of all, the Christians have been tower-eyed for a long time. With Americans' help, I think it's an amazing process. They have pushed that indigenization to a high degree. And so you have seminaries for Taiwan man and seminaries for fiancee, all the time. I think it's a whole different flavor. And I also have the identification of the very nature of Taiwan itself. The Western church is the number of members small. Among the Catholic church, the degree of tribalization, again, very almost do it very well. They're conscious of it. Others, maybe not. The joke is, you've got the Mormons who are very powerful, doing their own thing. And they're very nice people, you know. And of course, for them, they say, I'm small. And they don't like Catholics very much. But they already have that particular situation that they hate the holy system when they're older than everyone. And it's like they have downtown, downtown, downtown. And the Christian issue is very, the number is not high. They grew a lot during the 1950s, until about 65. They created a lot of wise Christians during that period. I.e., they were giving the aid that the government did not give, the United States government did not give. There were congregants for it. And then for the numbers went up. And then it started flattening out. And flattened out ever since. And everybody in the Morty-Manjolian community in the Taiwan-Manjolian seminary, they wrote great books about what can we do to get church girls going. Occasionally, they brought in, and this was a fascinating moment, they brought in the missionaries out of the super church in Korea. And so they had even killed them in the Bible. I remember that part of the Presbyterians were kind of worried about this new kind of evangelicalism. And that church was primarily housed in that church. And that American, Korean-American who was involved in that, they were directly plugged in to trying to make the seminary in California that is the heart of the evangelical movement. Fuller. And these people, I know people are fuller, and they always kind of worry, I'm Jewish and what are you converting? And I said, a study. They're not converted. You know, and they officially did not let me into the Society of Pentecostal Studies because you have to be a full Pentecostal. It's an interesting life sometimes. But you know, what they don't realize, American evangelicalism has to be modified. It does great in indigenous terms. It does not do well when Americans control the streams from fuller or from churches or something of God or whatever it may be, from the middle of Missouri, spiritual misery. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't. There's got to be Christianity that's going to work. It has to be an indigenous Christianity. But Christians have achieved that. Other churches have achieved that. Sometimes it's a crazy degree. It's a New Testament church that it was born with the woman of, was born with the woman of. They say they're not the only true church and they're the only true government. They didn't last forever. But they believe that that Zion had moved from Israel to just outside of Taizan. Taizan. And I met the new pastor, the new Elijah, and I went up the mountain and I got the full dose of anti-Zenomilatorate and then a couple days later I went to Taipei, gave him a long talk about the church. But the Arnold is in Michael Fierce, Taiwan. That was an experience. Because I was afraid I would be arrested. Given the nature of the record. Christianity is important as a moral force. They're important in the DPP growth. I don't know. It's sort of like China. It's sort of like China now. I mean everybody says Christianity is growing in China. Well, 100 million people out of 2.3 billion, or 1.3 billion is not as much percentage wise as Taiwan. I mean, that's reality. Not, is it going to be affected in other ways yet? I mean, institutions are putting in a kind of social consciousnesses there. There's lots of things that go, well, will people convert? What can I say? Any more questions? Okay, and why do you think you have another question? That's one thing that's kind of crossed my mind. I mean, when we're putting together the idea as state of the field, I mean, when I was reading the piece, one of the things that crossed my mind was, what kind of gaps do you see in the field? I mean, there's some things that we've kind of really kind of got overdosed on. In fact, national identity, some of the, it seems to be about generalization in a very heavy kind of way. I think what we have to look and get at is where Taiwan is now. I mean, what Lindemann's way of talking about the new time of the age process has been about 60 years since the coming of the Roman nominal war. I think some people are trying to deal with it. There are people working on the fact that political speech is now, I think people can go easily from Taiyuu to Wuyu. I think there is a, and yet in some way, people who are of mainlander appearance still feel the second classes. I mean, there are no more than the rule if they're the second classes, the friends of our people, we don't know whose names, but when you talk to them, they, you know, always somehow are a white-shanded man in a Taiyuu-Taiwan society. And I don't know how long it's gonna take to get over that, or they respond by studying these little kinds of issues that they may not want to get into the hot issues again, but I think that it has to be our environment to continue in the study of what happens to this mainlander group and the kids when they come over, what are they, who are they? Whereas the Taiwanese are no problem with identity, and whether they ninja and sundial, whether it will be Buddhism, and by the way, the Suchi movement has made this amazing appropriation of Chinese, of Catholic, and Christ's methodology to fit a new kind of social Buddhism. I agree, Loli-Rete has worked on that very effectively as a number of other people. I mean, I think those kinds of what happens to that community becomes an interesting question. What happens after the power is removed? What happens when, and the key moment, I think, is the mid-70s when John G. Wall starts time-alising the government and time-alising the party and opening the door in some ways. I mean, he may have been a monster at times, but he was probably the most protective leader that China had since 1945 on the ROC side. And my algorithm makes that kind of case very well. So he's an architect, with the kind of support for lead-and-play, for example. I think that's one of the issues that has to do with that series we're going to arrive at. I think, you know, again, what's happening to China? I think more people needed to look at it. Scott Simon, for example, now a lot of the number of the languages that is doing a very, very important work, he's switched from this look at the local economy to this and his work and bringing the opportunities into the larger world. I think it's very, very important. I think that's another area that one has to look at. And certainly the Presbyterian Church is half the Presbyterian Church. And they recognize that, because I think one of the hands of the Church was, in fact, once in a, at one point. But again, what that role is, some people have dealt with these issues and more have dealt with it. Okay, I think because of time which had fish here, let's just say, we've got a final question. We've got lunch, ready, we've got sandwiches, and coffee, juice, and wine. So don't rush off. Let's thank, sorry, just one more time for a fantastic, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two.