 Pramod is someone who I'm sure a lot of you will know, heard about him, but this hopefully will give you a bit more closer look at some of the amazing work he's been doing. I specifically wanted Pramod session to kind of as a closing keynote for the conference, because some of the work he's done, hopefully will inspire all of you when you leave this conference and take that forward. Pramod has been the chief architect of Aadhar, and then he also moved on to be the chief architect for the India Stack, where they provide APIs for Aadhar for EKYC, so you're able to do digital KYCs for UPI, of course, I'm sure everyone's aware of UPI. They also have e-signing and locker kind of facilities, so a lot of interesting things and at a country scale of 1.25 billion people who are already enrolled on Aadhar must be an amazing journey to build something of this scale. And so I think, you know, without taking too much time, I would love for Pramod to tell us this story and enlighten us and inspire us to do something similar. So over to you Pramod. Thank you so much Narendra. Narendra, it's been a pleasure being here and hello everyone. Thanks for being here. I'm not very sure, frankly, I'm not sure how much of details I can cover given 30 minutes at the talk, right? How we built Aadhar and UPI, open source, how we scaled up the pain points that we had to go through. But I'll try to give you a very high level view. Why India is doing what we're doing? And that's a very important understanding you ought to have. What does digital infrastructure for a billion people even mean? Why do we even build digital infrastructure, right? That idea of digital infrastructure building for a large inclusive development has been the theme that we have been following in the last 12 years and we are not stopping. We continue to build a lot more and I'll probably mention that few of them why what we are up to these days towards the end. So let me just share and I'll get started. So I want to rewind ourselves into 2008. Not too far ago. This is when iPhone came out, right? And Android coming out next year. India only had 17% of people who are banking and that's, you'll be surprised, right? Why even in 2008 we couldn't get one fifth of the country was banking and 80% was not in the formal banking system. And that's a terrible state to be in. And that you don't want to be in that situation at all as we were getting smartphones and internet and digitization. Inclusion is an important part of that and bringing everyone together as part of that. At the same time, India is also highly sort of socialistic in that nature. We provide lots of subsidies and LPG cylinder subsidies, something with every middle class. Many of you or your parents for sure would have gone through and availed it, benefited it. Probably not today because a lot of us have given up the subsidy for deserving people. But the total entitlement, the size of entitlement reached 50 billion US dollars in 2008. It's very, very important to understand. We were spending roughly about 18% off our annual budget and 2.5% of GDP at that time straight away into direct subsidies. And it was very clear that direct subsidies were not reaching the people because the way we were giving subsidies through the supply chain meant many middlemen, many middlemen leakages, massive leakages and some of the newer programs had less leakages but some of the older programs like fertilizer and PDS and so on have much larger leakage and diversion as well, not only leakage, diversion of the goods because this was pre-subsidized goods being distributed. That's how we got everybody. And imagine even 50% or 40% of the leakage meant 20-25 billion dollars every year someone is pocketing that the poor people supposed to get or deserving people supposed to get. Even 2008 or even partly today and many of your entrepreneurs, you must realize that many of our formal systems, products and services such as 3 years ago, for example, 4 years, 4 years ago, 2016, when we were sitting with Sebi, we realized we had tapered the number of people in the capital market. We couldn't get more than 20-22 million, 22 million I think was the number at that time Sebi was talking to us about. We couldn't get more than 22 million people but we have 900 million people adults, 1.3 billion population but 900 million adults and out of that only 22 million is even participated in mutual funds and so on. Banking was low, mutual funds, nobody is having access to. Lending is a story you have heard many times, GDP to lending ratio is very low. We don't lend, we lend really large amount of sums to large companies or large set of people, few set of people. So few large transactions, the entire system is set up with that. But if you unbundle that, you will realize that why do we have only 10% of the country availing products and services that at least 50-60% of the country should be getting is because the more and more regulation, more and more strictness in the system meant onboarding cost, cost of onboarding, the KYC, PMLA rules to adhere to see originally seen and verified kind of rules in the bank that added cost of acquisition. Then to engage with you, that you are lending or you are saving, getting mutual funds, regular tip investment if you want to do, you have to get paperwork. And getting paperwork to invest 1000 rupees is not even, you can't even get it. I'll tell you the mutual fund distributors in India today get 0.5% of the commission. But if the KYC cost is 1500 rupees, that was the KYC cost of 55. That means mutual fund distributor needs to get a check of 3 lakh rupees, 300,000 rupees even before they can recover the KYC cost. That means sign up cost and who can write 3 lakh or 300,000 rupees check. And this is 22 million people, 22-25 million people at best, which is why the market had tapered when nobody was going. So the idea of dramatically reducing acquisition cost, servicing cost and most importantly in the area of jobs, lending, especially blue collar jobs, lending and so on. Data is also the cost of trust is very high. That means no one trust a small SME who walks into a bank or a roadside vegetable vendor who wants a 10,000 rupee loan for a day or two. Nobody gets them. So it's finally there in a completely informal economy. That's what happens. Most of the production services because the cost of regulation, cost of paperwork, cost of acquisition, cost of engagement, cost of trust is so high. The idea wants to reduce that dramatically. But interestingly, India didn't go on to solve them. So government of India and regulators, certainly, I don't think everything was very planned. But when you look back, at least until 2014, there was a theory in a lot of our mind and we were saying that if you build the digital building blocks like the way Internet was constructed, like identity as a building block, payment as a building block, data as a building block, eSign, digital signature as a building block, digital building block. Then people like you who are listening today, many of your entrepreneurs, I'm very sure, listening to you would combine them and provide solutions to the diverse country as diverse as India. Instead of government solving it and government building solutions and portals to signups, that doesn't make any sense. Rather, we build infrastructure that allows you to build solutions. That is a very interesting way of looking at that. And fast forward to 2020, we saw 50 billion US dollars and out of that 35, I think it's about 35, 35 billion now, is sent directly to the bank account of the people today. And it's an amazing transformation we did actually within such a short period, getting 650 million people, unique other holders in the bank account. We have more bank accounts, but unique people with bank account is 650 million people who are financially addressable. That means during COVID, for example, we transfer 450 million people, 450 million people received subsidies directly into the bank account while America was writing checks and sending it to home during the COVID time to support because of the tanking of the economy. We've amazingly well managed this indirect subsidy program to what's called a direct cash fund. We run the largest cash, direct cash transfer program in the world today. And this is a study that came out in 2020 December, even better. And if you have not seen it, you should definitely read from Bureau of International Settlement, which is the central bank of central banks in Basel. They said India would have taken from in 2011, we were around 20% penetration. And if you had taken normal route to get everybody into bank account, we would have taken 46 years. India would have taken 46 years if you plot the GDP curve, and we would have reached it. In four decades, we would have reached 80% of banking. India took flat six years. So it's an amazing story that India compressed a four decade long development cycle into less than a decade, getting 80 plus percent of the people into the banking system. Not because we, you know, there was many things that came together, many things. And no one can just take the credit. One person can take the credit. Azhar alone can't take credit. Regulators can't take credit. Entrepreneurs can't alone take credit. Zeo can't take credit. Mobile phones, you know, serendipity is beautiful. In India, everything happens together to make that dramatically. But the underpinning digital infrastructure played a very pivotal role, what we call India's tax, right? And that is primarily between the three layers, the cost of acquisition layer, which is the identity layer. We have now Azhar, 1.31 billion people use Azhar. We do a billion other authentication, digital authentication. We don't even know how many people actually use other photocopies. We have no idea. But billion authentication every month on Azhar. And PAN is an authenticable instrument now. GSTN is an establishment identity. And we can do a KYC on it now using GSTN APIs. And they're all API based systems that are platform in nature, opening up those APIs the market for you or many of you to innovate. And even in, by the way, Azhar was even used by many people. Although it was not compulsory, it was used for vaccination as well. It's amazing that how much we achieve vaccination, right? And the second layer is the cost of engagement layer. The cost of acquisition, once you acquire, you need to engage them. Engagement has to be paperless and presently. And low cost, high volume. For India to be an inclusive program, we need to be high volume, low cost, paperless and presently. And that's what many of the infrastructure. Now look at it, eSign alone didn't solve anything. It is just a building block for digital signature. Azhar payment bridge used to send money to Azhar also. AEPS, I don't know how many of you even know, is what India Post, India Postman uses that with a device on their handheld in front of your home. So we never to ban two villages by all. But we do banking to villages. It was an amazing thing, branches never got offered. But India Post is now doing banking at the doorstep of, you know, very, very large number. We do 300 million transactions on AEPS. And UPI of course, you have to be living under the rock if you didn't hear about UPI. But again, what is UPI? It's only a protocol. It's a UPI was just a set of API specification with a settlement network that allowed money to be moved on the rail, on the digital rail from, you know, phone pay or Google pay or wireless pay and on the merchant side, on the consumer side and the bank and many, many innovations like coupons and vouchers and all being created, right? Many, many of them, some of them you would have heard even during the talk today. Okan is a lending protocol. It's a spec again, API specs. If you're a developer, you should be looking at the specification. Okan is a lending spec. UHI next month, you will see a universal health interface. Again, not a platform, a set of protocols. So we are moving from platforms to protocols. That means an open API specification so that you can build the endpoints. Like Internet, HTTP was the protocol. But the web server somebody built and browser somebody else built, apps somebody else built, application server somebody else built, right? And connecting through HTTP. So UHI, think of UHI like a universal health interface like UPI that allows health and wellness services to be provided on one side and consumed on the other side. Who will build those API endpoints? Hopefully all of you will build this API. So government is now going to building open specifications rather than platform. It's a very important move, right? And we are also doing backend protocol as a foundation effort for commerce, distributed commerce is completely decentralized commerce protocol, backend protocol.io, you can go check it out. And then we have data, which is the cost of trust. The third layer is the cost of trust. We are dramatically reducing through what? By giving the data back to the people in digitally signed in a cryptographically protected and end to end encrypted fashion. With your concept, you are able to do and the first data network probably in the world went live called account aggregator in India. And you would have heard a lot of buzz around account aggregator. And that's based on the protocol called DIPA. It's on GitHub by the way. All these APIs are actually on GitHub. If you want to look at the endpoints and take it abroad and build or whatever you need to do. And now we also have account aggregator and personal healthcare records with this PSR and Digilocker, which is opening up credentials. Digilocker doesn't give data. It gives credentials, proof of license, proof of work, proof of academics and all that thing is coming through. And DIWALK was another effort we did for proof of vaccination. So if you have vaccinated in India, you saw that QR code, it comes from that open source. And again, many of them yet to be seen at live like UPI. UPI is a good story, but USA is new and we are getting some of the new protocols out right now. So it's a good time for all of you to look at the API. But what does India stack at the end of the day? We just built a set of open protocols and core identity platform and created policy so that many of you can build hundreds of applications on top of that, because that is necessary for India. And that's what the learning was, right? We had very nicely set up. Political will was supportive. Very regulators were supportive. And but India didn't do like Europe. We didn't just do only regulatory and law. We also built infrastructure, building blocks like identity signature and things we talked about data. UPI as a payment infrastructure API. USA as a health API. Now we have scaling and education API is coming out where ATEC platform can connect itself and provide a unified network across the country. And this is a real interesting part, right? We managed to, India managed to play these three things very nicely. The policies from regulators and government with a combination of digital infrastructure, digital infrastructure. Why do I call digital platforms? Because they're not all platforms. They have sometimes just specs, API specs and the digital infrastructure. Who will take advantage of this? Both government and mostly market participants. Many of the entrepreneurs likely who are listening to it. But if you, if you can get these three combinations, right? India will do a fantastic job of open policies, open innovation friendly policy, a set of interoperable building blocks that allow for you to do a better job. A minimalistic infrastructure and then innovation thriving on top of that by people like you. And that's a difference in India. We were on this side, India was on this side free 90s opening up even after 95. We were, we were still literally, you know, air India just went away, right? Look at it. We were government was building it, government was a regulator, government was building it, specification government was operating it, government was running the whole thing. And, but US on the other side outsourced the entire thing to tech companies. And that's also facing a lot of lash back as you see, anti-competitive measures and winner take all behavior, extreme monopolistic behavior that is getting pushed back and India is trying to take a sort of a middle ground if you will. And that is where we are saying we cannot just completely outsource our, because we are also very inclusive society and nobody will take care of vulnerable section of our society unless the cost of transaction, cost of engaging them and cost of innovation and cost of trust is dramatically reduced. But through this green thing in the middle, if you can create interoperability and dramatic reduction in cost, you as innovators will build innovation. That is our thesis, right? You will build innovation that can now span beyond the top 10 percentage, go to the top 30, 40, 50 percentage of our country beyond which it gets really hard. The India 3 gets hard. India 2 is a aspirational 300, 400 million people that you can reach out now because the cost of business and cost of innovation has come down and you have a lot of easy money flowing, right? India because all of you are innovating. And we are not stopping there. By the way, if you look at the play we are repeating, the same national health stack where USI is coming, national education stack where education and skilling interfaces are coming where tech platforms and public and private schools and tutors and mentors can create a unified network without a central platform. Most of this protocol play have nothing centralized. No central platform whatsoever. Fully decentralized innovation but innovated by you all of you. So if you don't adopt, India will not see the value that we can potentially derive. And India is accelerating formalization. That's a real play here. Ensuring that half a billion people maybe find a million adults and maybe more children as they are in the education sector, for example, are truly brought into the formal economy. There's no reason that they need to go to local money lender and local savings, unregulated savings and so on. They should have the same access that all of us have. And but we are not solving it, formalizing it by building solutions. We are formalizing by distributing the ability to solve. Distributing the ability to you. Ability to government. Distributing the ability to Saman's NGOs as well. So if many of the education sector, for example, there are a lot of NGOs who are working. All of them are innovating. Social entrepreneurs, for example. So innovation comes from that, you know, that all of you looking at the APIs and saying, I can now innovate and connect to the grid and suddenly I have a large and low cost way of contacting to a large millions and millions of people. The UPA was the starting point, but we are not stopping and we are doing a set of infrastructure play. Most of them protocol play and watch out for those APIs. Many of those APIs are out there, drafts out all on GitHub. You should really track and start doing a new age startups that allow healthcare and education and everything to reach eventually the 300-400 million who is supposed to get it. Thank you. Stop that and maybe go back to Q&A or yeah, Nadeesh. What a brilliant talk. So many interesting stats and so many interesting ideas and the energy, amazing energy you carry there, Pramod. Thanks a lot. I think we have a couple of questions if you would like to take a chance at them. Yeah, so okay, so the one one important thing we want to understand here is that no single entity in India is building a central big platform through which we are solving India's problems. India's problems are wicked problems, right? Really complex and when it comes to sustainability and environment, even gets bigger and bigger and more complex there for us. So we these building blocks are built by many people. So this is a little bit tricky for developers, right? For other, you have to go to UIDI for UPI, you have to work with banks and NPCI for USI you can work with NHA. So there is National Health Authority Section 8 not for profit company has been set up by Health Ministry to create digital infrastructure for health. Similarly you are doing that for education. So can I find all the APIs? Not really one place. Maybe one of the things we can do is that some of us as volunteers, all of us as a volunteer system and we have many volunteers from I'm very sure some of you are listening as well who are participating in this. Maybe we can put together a set of pointers. IndiaStack.org is a good place to start that but I think we have built a lot more now. So we might have to update that page to give you all the API documentation. So that was one question there and the good thing is that if government ways to define themselves as a rail they are the rail builders, digital rail builders rail is means what protocol the API specs. All of you are the platform builders and it's a very, it's like what internet happened, right? Like internet you have endpoints are all built by you and the rails are defined by the regulator of the government so that all of us can talk to each other in an interoperable fashion. So yeah maybe we'll put together some documentation beyond IndiaStack.org Could we say to start for all this and no actually not really not really frankly. I think did the demo give push to UPI? Yes it did definitely give a push to UPI but UPI started in 2013 you know the idea of UPI three, four of us three of us literally started brainstorming the idea and 2014 we started writing the specification for it and some of the early guys contributors maybe even listening we had bunch of people volunteer participating early and 2015 when we sort of came out and started doing pilots. 2016 it did give a boost but I think we would have done even otherwise because we had geo effects and smart phone the economy working and VC money pouring and number of unicorns many of you are there and I think it generates a lot of momentum for the country there is no stop in India. Some of them gives good boost but not I don't think we can say that's the reason for UPI many reasons yeah if there is no questions then we can wind up as well if you don't mind Pramod I had one quick question something that gets us quite commonly is around the security aspect of you know so if you I will talk about that security every building block we are designing whether the building block is of nature of a platform or the building block is a nature of an API we have to still think about privacy and security from day one and this is not an afterthought right so in the case of other we had to do a set of security measures that we had to minimalism on the privacy side which literally captured nothing to make sure that it is not a data captured in a platform right and we minimized it then we had to enact the other act and then Supreme Court the second longest debate on the privacy was you know that's our vibrant democracy I think working but it only strengthened and the security of the system so far we have no zero hack because I think the other system itself is highly protected it's not even it was on the internet for say the biometrics and so on even the API core authentication API and points are actually not on the internet that is on we have many layers of what you call trusted entity that actually end point so there is no mother ship to attack so you can't bring other down one time with one attack on a DOS attack or a DDoS attack or anything like that there is nothing exposed you only have some all exposed but that doesn't stop the other API similar to UPI UPI is also there is the switch is not exposed on the internet the core switch through which the transaction go all the end points are so you can attack try to attack the phone pain point or a you know Amazon pain point or a private pain point you can try attacking a little bit but it's like many roles you know all connected through this big intersection that is not exposed so I think you can start stopping Q but otherwise you've been very careful with that and but the security it's a we are we are even from other you can see that I don't know whether you looked at other we were using 2048 cryptographic technique for encryption digital signature every API is digitally signed this is in 2010 when I put up other API every API is digitally signed even the API input output is digitally signed and then channel encrypted so we had a channel encryption packet encryption and signature so you can look at the API you will see enormous part that has to be gone through both in privacy and security but but it's a cat and mouse game I think we just have to be on top of that and constantly upgrade every system that is why we are actually more and more going towards protocol it's a very important understanding okay platform create a little bit of a centralization platform create store of value platform capture value Rails on the other hand is of enabled flow of value not a store of value because rail itself there is nothing you can store in the rail it's a HTTP what do you store in HTTP there is no it's a it's a flow right HTTP enabled flow SMTP enables flow so it's very important that the protocol play every flow in a decentralized manner I think that is why many of the new place we are doing from UPI UPI USI now we are doing for health health what do you call education and the skilling you will see the API and Becken is a commerce protocol there is no platform there is no central class completely decent so what do you attack I think that's a brilliant insight for people to take away in terms of why the move to protocol and also means that narrate also means that people who are listening that API's are all coming out distributed commerce decentralized commerce API's decentralized health and wellness care API's this is the time to play either a you know massive business type game like Shopify's of the world to play it right who went and actually acquired a small businesses to you know wellness practice people or a home stay in Kerala or a tripura can get a small Shopify like platform who is now connected to the grid without you worrying about consumer acquisition so the moment you have a create grid that is an open grid many entrepreneurs can now focus on value provisioning on the edge without trying to create a monopolistic large platform which is possible if you get raise a loss of money which is not so bad but not everybody can do that absolutely I think there are few more questions that have come in if you have time promote we could take them yeah sure yeah and I'll let you I don't know the timing I think it's there on the Q&A okay yeah yeah so what about privacy law I think it's a brilliant question in fact legally we were not even sure whether our right to privacy is right to privacy constitutionally embedded and then we went through that argument right it sounded crazy to us many of us and what do you remember right to privacy is not we don't have right to privacy actually people debated it where in the constitution where in the laws exist fundamental Supreme Court had to make up that mind first Supreme Court then decided that privacy indeed indeed is fundamental right to every Indian but not absolute right so there is a difference between absolute right and a foundation that means there are situations where your privacy will be over written for the larger section no different from you going to airport and somebody frisking you physically and you feel uncomfortable it doesn't matter because that's your giving up your privacy for the larger good and or in the covid scenario when you know you could spread the disease and you are isolating and being known to everybody is you are giving up your privacy in one sense so privacy is not absolute it's fundamental then came the debate about whether other is valid and then Supreme Court made up very good decision about indeed it is valid nothing wrong in using it but overuse of other need to be controlled so that was the debate then Supreme Court insisted we must have our own privacy and the draft privacy bill and we have quite like GDPR so the question do we have something like GDPR yes it is very close to coming through in the parliament but all of us must speak up and ensure that the government is pushed and forced and pressured into passing the bill they have not passed the bill yet but it is very close to passing the bill and our bill will cover not only data protection it will also cover data empowerment that being moment that bill comes all of us can now ask a copy of our data from everywhere we are leaving our digital footprint in the from the hospital from your employer from your taxi company everywhere you are working doesn't matter you will have the right to get your data so it's a very powerful bill let's hope that it comes yeah that's one question there does it get long to get accepted by Gao interestingly it is almost all government work it takes a long time any digital infrastructure place minimum a decade long so a lot of us have gained extreme patience by the way our patience capital is very high we will work on it work on it work on it work on it and it takes time we know it takes time the leaders have to move government has to move politicians have to understand the value then we have to society has to embrace it too you can't ask society to make a leapfrog no leapfrog happens actually many many small steps so we have to be very patient about it but all of us some of us who are in the digital infrastructure game is here for 2-3 decades going to be there building it out so no particular hurry we will do systematically because of that our law regulation marketplace like you and society is indeed aligned and incentive correct ready for that move to happen by the way I don't even know whether you have read the original UPI paper in 2015 original UPI paper we have talked about food coupons and we have talked about loyalty points and all an UPI we have not even seen half of that actually materializing it yet yet but you know no hurry we will do it one step at a time I think society has to be ready so that it takes time but you need to have capital and you need to understand a lot of value you raise digital identity very interesting question so we don't have right to be forgotten yet in the law even in Europe by the way right to be forgotten was over stressed and I don't think if you read it it's not that you can go to a bank and say I want to delete a bank account you can delete a bank account even today but you can't be forgotten because they have regulatory mandate to keep it for so many years so the history that you indeed banked in Spain for example or in UK will remain in that system but I think the right to be forgotten they are forcing it in a commercial on Google and Facebook and where there is no regulatory need for you to keep the data they are enforcing the right to be forgotten but our other is a root identity it is an identity that is birth to death it's not an identity that is virtual and through revocable and deleteable it is an identity that you are born here you get another number and nobody ever in in the time of humanity gets the same number it's your number and nobody else ever will be allocated that number you can't change it it's not revocable which is one of the reasons why usage of Aadhar was actually curtailed and controlled saying that you need to create derived identities for transactional purposes so that you can get right to be forgotten you can actually revoke it you can cancel it and you can move on and so on but social security number in the US you can't cancel it nothing you can do every country has some citizenship ID or number that's a root identity that you don't like a birth certificate because half of India doesn't register birth so think of that you can cancel that part but you can cancel derived identity we have time if you can take more I don't know if Naresh dropped me okay these are topics you can never end you're doing a fantastic job so we have illiterate section yeah I think it's a again Sanjay Singh for adoption of illiterate this is one of the reasons why India sometimes we feel lot of us right who are educated we'll say why can't we have credit on you why can't we just do this sometimes we run out of our patience that why is no government moving it's also to do with this is why regulators also you remember UPS started with 2000 rupees limit and then we slowly and steadily but even then you will see the gullibility of Indians for example they get caught right poor lot of people you know because they're digitally unaware you know get called and say oh I'm from the bank can you give me the OTP and there are few calls later they think they are actually from the bank and actually give you an OTP right so it's very easy to you know cheat people and gullible people it's a concern it is indeed Sanjay is a concern and we believe again I personally don't think government alone can solve everything I'm a believer that society all of us entrepreneurs who are doing fintech for example should also take a moment to take time to create awareness best practices in your community wherever you are working your user base if you're only talking about top 10 user base not so bad but if you are one of those social entrepreneurs who are working every one of us should use the opportunities that we are getting to continue to push and increase that awareness tell our parents tell our neighbors to what to do what not to do be watchful and it takes a while before the system gets used to it but we are trusted into this digital economy whether we like it or not right and the one generation that is not used to it find it very hard to make that switch quite like industrial revolution we are going through the information revolution right now and the feed is enormous but sanjay your concern is valid and all of us do sleep over that aspect how do we get a billion people with 22 languages hundreds of variants of languages so much diversity in kalse to actually understand all this stuff right maybe the way think about decentralization think about don't think about centralized solution think of decentralized solution that everybody can do a little bit and then hopefully collectively society moves forward right yeah that's the first venkat question was about that as well and the answer about the raising the identity and other we use the indian railways and transport for booking and tracking again theoretically aadhar is an identity you could have login with aadhar like you login with google we could have done it but i talked to you about the earlier question aadhar is a root identity and it is permanent identity it is not revocable there was a supreme court and asked the balancing of aadhar you said so what we lot of us technologists believe is that they will be derived identity so you for example as an entrepreneur can create a hot check open id provider put up an open id wrapper and maybe get people to sign up and then go and sell it to thaz or any hotels or anybody to say use your identity to login and then they can adopt you rather than they are adopting a government identity that is very tricky and also aadhar is everywhere aadhar being everywhere may not be the right thing for us in the long run so they create derived identity and create derived platform all of you and then that can be used whether it is a card, whether it is a qr code whether it is a digital id whether it is a crypto id whatever it is create whatever you do so that i can do many other things on top of that rather than using aadhar everywhere cool i think Pramod will take one last question and we will wrap up too much digital is boon or pain who knows, who knows actually we don't know but one of the things we are making sure while the extreme rapid digitization is going see this is like your parents would have asked the same thing to you so it is a generation problem that every generation that goes through you say is too much computer is good or not we used to read and before that we used to play physically who knows what's right or wrong is the wrong somebody else will figure it out but i think there is always a moderation balancing act but i have a feeling that what we are doing is that while the digitization momentum because at the end of the day internet value of internet in terms of democratizing and creating level playing we are leveling, leveling a lot look at media, look at everything else let's say that leveling is a good thing but at the same time over use over gaming, over computer spend over anything over over eating is a bad thing i think we just have to balance our act but india from our perspective we are focusing while digitization is going on can we create interoperable and portability infrastructure with the data protection bound into it that's what focuses that's what all these APIs are all about interoperability of the grid portability of my data and credential and protection that's what we are after if we can do that hopefully we can balance innovation and inclusion all we can while protection and because we can't go back to dark age i think it just doesn't make we just you know where we are going back we just going forward we just but we very very we thoughtful and our democratic setup hopefully creates enough institutions and opportunities for us to debate AI, biases, crypto what is right wrong what should children do hopefully we will go through the right debates and trust in the democracy and trust in all of us hopefully we will do a better job thanks a lot Pramod bye