 Alright, so I'm going to kick it off. I'm going to introduce everybody, but that already happened. So, I'm going to start with like a real simple survey. First things first, how many people know what Gutenberg is and have actually used it before? I think they've actually used Gutenberg. Next question, how many people think that Gutenberg is the greatest idea in the history of our business? Okay. How many people think Gutenberg is the worst thing in the history of the internet? Because if you found some forms of Spanish and a bit controversial, torches and pitchforks have been put together and things like that. Okay, so does that mean I think I'm getting a vibe, reading the room that we're all kind of in the middle about Gutenberg? Does that sound pretty fair? Okay. So, having started that off, I'm going to be moderating today, so I just want to start off with a nice simple easy question for you guys. What do you think is the best part about Gutenberg? Who wants to start? Kelly wants to start. I think the best part is a true whizzy way or what you do when you get editing experience in WordPress. You know, many of you build or work with sites you're probably used to using. I mentioned this in my talk too, but you're probably used to using advanced custom fields or CMB2 or PIC lists or a number of plugins that just give you the hopes to build out and then in your mind you're kind of envisioning what it will look like on the front end when it gets rendered there, but in the back end, all your team is able to do filling out and making a sense of what it actually looks like. So Gutenberg, the big advantage in my eyes is for developers to create a truly whizzy way experience and give people a live preview of what that thing will look like on the front end as they're typing in it, as they're using images and as they're modifying it, it just gets live updated to reflect those changes. And then they can save knowing that now on the front end it will look like exactly how it's set up. It's a nicer editing experience overall. And it'll help WordPress stay competitive with other platforms that bring a lot of work into a lot of the editing experience. I would say I have two different parts, but they're all the same. It's the fluid and seamless experience that it creates. A lot of care has been put into the development side of things, building up components and making a cohesive UI. Most of the added experience that WordPress feels kind of half-baked. It's built perfectly for serving WordPress core, but us as developers trying to add to it, we have to bring in all of our stuff. You want to set it to page? Perfect, we have functionality for that. But you have to figure out how to build UI. Oh, you want to create better stuff? Perfect, we have functionality for that. But you have to do all of the work and build your own UI. And with Gutenberg, everything is just there. So you can say, well, I need a button, I need this, I need the editor, you know, left and right to click. All of it is standardized. So as tons of plugin developers bring in their own stuff, the experience for the person who owns the site is going to feel pretty seamless because all of these blocks should come together and be very familiar with each. And us developers don't have to read a little bit of the time of making it, which makes for a very fluid editing experience. You just start typing and lots of care has also been put into the shortcuts that you can use to go from writing about the paragraph to the paragraph to know if the role of the blitz has been activated. Fingers are off the keyboard, which I like. Since I'm also on the table, I'm going to talk about that. First of all, it's distracting. Don't look at the window. There's people on the walls. Back on Gutenberg, I really think that it's about empowerment. And I think that Gutenberg is not only empowering users to not edit their own content and, like we said, a busy way to actually display stuff. It's also empowering developers because it's giving us the platform to jump in even in some of your live demos, making your own recent post-plugging, your own call-to-action work. You can build it once and pull that code into somewhere else. You start to kind of snowball this toolkit over time. It's not just you yourself building the scene to scratch. I think we're going to see a lot more just components that are available for Gutenberg that you can then pick and choose to build things more frankly and more focus on the kind of details of what the functionality is rather than having the time to build my fourth CTO look at or whatever the case may be. So I think it's giving us a platform to build not only for yourself, but for a community and for a camp to give thanks to you. I think it's going to be really exciting whether it depends up in the floor or not to build upon a standardized way and kind of extend not only extra life, but work-press, but just extra life back to really build cool things. I have been building Gutenberg, quite a lot of you guys have. My convenience of sight thing is the standards. I don't want to be about the visual page builders because I know they're going to work part of the WordPress community, but if you ever tried to go from like Divi to Beaver Builder, Beaver Builder is the way around. Yeah, forget it. You have to be on the whole site basically all over again. With Gutenberg now, so you build one of these page builders or do you think they need to be created? You have a nice seamless, smooth transition going from what type of site to what type of site. Any questions so far? Yes? Yeah, by building on that page builder, it's going to be a significant part. For a long time, there was a lot of variables on the block and sites such as their presence in a lot of these sort of things and things like that are just all across the board. How will the website that's already interacting with page builders react to having this new group? Just so that you can hear in your back, I just wanted to hear your question. A lot of sites are built on these builders. Some of us are in the air with them and now if they kind of support others that they've been building them from the start, they look through the hands of the things. At least from what I've seen, there's something I think the WordPress core team is taking to account is that there's not only the Gutenberg experience, but there's also a plug-in that everyone wants to be a listener or something like that, where you can keep those sites in a classic format without using Gutenberg so that they don't break. I think earlier we were saying that there's this transformation where a lot of these builders are now going Gutenberg and looking to build for that future where they can all be in more ecosystems. I think there's a stop gap for the sites that are already built that way. As time goes on, there will still be a place around that. It's a very awkward time as I was talking about this some of you did earlier today where you want to build for Gutenberg now, but Gutenberg is still this sort of moving target. It's mostly well-formed, but it's not completely done. It's a gamble to say I'm just going to build for this now and then obviously we build the site in a few more weeks because a bunch of stuff has changed. Ideally not, but it's possible. But that's also true if you build with Gutenberg in mind right now. You're going to build for whatever tools you have right now and then in a few months now everybody wants these Gutenberg and these 2Js that will mesh perfectly. They are meshing well because all the page builders out there are like, oh no, the core market is going to disappear because now WordPress core can do some of the things that we've been promising. And I think what we're going to see is them bringing the unique benefits that they have into Gutenberg. Beaver Builder is a paid builder that I like a lot. They focus a lot of energy on converting they call them modules into blocks. And they do a lot of things in Beaver Builder that I like for saving modules and content and quality content that they've helped bring to Gutenberg. So Gutenberg does have saved modules, saved blocks that you can reuse quickly and it's definitely what you're doing. I think the page builders are going to bring that into Gutenberg in a really nice way. And so you won't be locked in to say, well this was a Divi site, it's always been a Divi site. Well, this uses some things from Divi and some things from something else that's super maintainable. Right. It should be more maintainable or forward. I believe I saw another handbrake in the back. Oh, okay. So kind of in the opposite of the first question what do you think is the biggest weakness we have with Gutenberg right now? At the moment it doesn't support some kind of fundamental thing. In some of the blocks we have tax and insert inline image. There's no support for that right now. In the two column block for instance, at this point it's a little experimental so to Brian's point I wouldn't watch a site on Gutenberg right now because you might have been frustrated by those things. I want to protect the inline image. I could do that with Goldberg but I can't anymore. I don't have a developer with Gutenberg to be hired out so that's one weakness right now just from a usability standpoint right at this moment. From a development standpoint in my opinion the I don't know if I would call it a weakness but just more of a hurdle is a lot of WordPress developers I think are used to the good old days where it's like you have your PHP files and you have CSS files and you have a domain to send that code to the back end to generate your markup and CSS and JS and white mod file once it gets to the front end but that's it you have to worry about those three things right now with this modern tooling though it's like I feel like you don't hear it all a lot but it's a bad bit of this stuff they'll look into JavaScript's ES6 and Redux which is Gutenberg's state management which they might not need to be diverted to but maybe to something great and then JSX syntax that we have to use it as and then you don't have to figure things out back in the bad old more of a barrier more of a barrier that's super easy what? I think one with a dual ideal like any of you make it more easy oh for sure I think there's another obstacle that isn't Gutenberg's path is that for the longest time it's been coming but a lot of developers are like okay I've got too much going on let me know when you're ready I'll be back so there's going to be developers that now once it launches fully that now we're just starting out of the gate and have to pick up speed and catch faces there's also no one that would have been with it throughout the whole middle for a bit of just a wild kind of array of people skill sets and knowledge bases and I think that one thing the word rest of the community has always done is kind of rallying together so I think to that effect I have to re-teach a webpack react, conduct, all these other things I think there'll be things that make things easier for people who are just in here talking about the app that was made to create a Gutenberg blog I think it's important to link more things to ease that friction because that's what it means I think the biggest weakness is that it still doesn't write my content before I would like to do that that's the hardest part is coming up with the content also it still has a few accessibility challenges rather than introduced a ton of accessibility problems but they're actively being worked on which is awesome because ultimately it's going to be one of the more accessible web interfaces for creating content but at the moment since it's still being built it poses an un-problem for you to take some of that which I know would be a problem would be amazing one of the concerns I have is even outside of just the word rest of the community there's just a couple of jobs so for example a few debates on CSS and JavaScript I know what we're doing is we're taking all those problems that are outside of the word rest we're pulling all the brains that hold you to be because of the position I'm in we randomly took things to argue about I mean more things I'm still out on some of those never again will I I can do about that I think there's a standard and a recommendation to some degree but it's not awesome to say it's still all over again so I think that they're trying to give everyone the tools to do things in the modern way but things change over time how we're going to be able to see people go launch them it's beautiful there's something else to snap out of I think there's always going to be a standard of the word rest of the world here's what we think is best and you do how we're going to do it and that's the point I I'm over the camp of writing things in the way that's most convenient so I kind of like being able to kind of cope with all my styling and my templating and my JavaScript not all together because that's difficult to maintain but the fact that in a single file I could write a little bit of CSS I could write a little bit of templating I could write a little bit of logic it's nice having all in one spot instead of looking at this file looking at that file looking at that file and then having a build tool pull out their own events all the styling goes into this style sheet all the JavaScript goes into this JavaScript file templating is what gets frontend I kind of like that I haven't fully embraced it yet I have this love-hate relationship with build tools I like that they exist and can do a lot of things for me but I hate before I start my project all the things are all lined up I kind of part of me still likes to just put in a little JavaScript and CSS one of the biggest problems that my developer at my level has is I've just really broken through now I have this huge shit happening with all this stuff you think that when you have the first opportunity for it while we're on it you start taking the skill of finding the worst press to carry it over or you take the skill right from there I think we kind of limit it to just work in work? Yes I'll continue this until you guys talk I think this is a really good afternoon I've been thinking about this a lot there have been arguments like oh now that everything is putting in JavaScript it's going to be so much harder because now that we've learned so many more things and I think in reality it's just new people are going to learn different things I learned PHP courtesy of learning to build inside WordPress, especially when they came on this CSS and they were like oh this WordPress thing was pretty cool so you just call this thing with this name and that's a function for God's sake and so people jumping in now are going to learn JavaScript first instead of PHP so the people who have the most to learn are us who are already entrenched who are now learning another way of doing things but a lot of that knowledge is transferable which is nice, it's basically just learning some new syntax and learning some new tools, which is it is a big undertaking but it's not an insurmountable one and the nice thing about this like you just asked this knowledge is transferable outside of WordPress and they're learning to do some these spansier JavaScript things which is what's happening largely outside of WordPress in largely the same way I would say that's absolutely applicable for anybody who is doing learning development concepts are more important than getting a particular thing to work at any given time in general if you understand and use like sanity checks for things in your code and you escape from it and you sanitize it all those kinds of best practices I think if you learn them in PHP and in JavaScript or whatever other language here, all those concepts still apply it's more like getting used to this new syntax way of doing things in that language and it might have some quirks to it that the language used to might not but comparison of course because they are different but I think if you nail those fundamentals in any language then all of that is possible or would you recommend learning about this new you know maybe say if you react in whatever the rest of the stack is what resources do you guys use to kind of deal with those and is there a custom syntax for how they would respond to PHP is there a custom syntax now for each other specifically for the conditions to the codex or what's all for that so the cool thing is you don't have to learn React you go about building stuff or root work and never actually learn a thing about React which I know is true because I haven't and I have been writing stuff for root work you'll be much better off if you do you don't have to Westboss has really good React for beginners course it's amazing that it's React for beginners that kind of thing we just Google React for beginners Westboss Google React for beginners course and React for beginners course Zach Gordon's Google React course that I mentioned at the end of the line you go to Google React there's actually two different courses we're going to find my friend Joe Casabona that's all about using and working with Google we're just perfect to figure out all the cool things that Google itself can do from the beginning which is also really good to share with clients like here's all the stuff that you're going to know about this new editor but then Zach Gordon's course is all about development and he takes you from the very beginning we're going to start with some basic JavaScript we're going to set up Webpack where you get everything just running basically and now we're ready to build a block build these 10 different blocks it walks through very simple very complex I'll follow on that Hi, yes, a comment and a question a comment is could you repeat the questions I forgot to do that the question is everybody's encouraged to take a mobile first approach to websites does this what you see is what you get in Gutenberg contribute to that and therefore save development time or is it pretty much what you see is what you get on a on your big map that's a good question the question that I was answering that I forgot to repeat is where are good places to go to learn all of this new stuff that we're going to have to start figuring out pretty soon Gutenberg and the React do you have something to add to that? so another thing to your point to solve this stuff do I need to go learn React I think at first when you dive into it I don't know if it's weird it was awesome I'm sorry I think as you start to get into the code wait a second what's that and then you start to look at it and it starts to slowly come together more tutorials more YouTube or just digging into the code whatever your style is it'll start to just oh okay I just do that but if you want to take it further and you'll start to learn like oh React this is just React there's things that start to connect it just depends on can you get away with just it's magic and it just works or you can get it into the cures and find out what's going on so I think there's a spectrum we'll be able to survive without learning React but I think if you are adventurous and you jump into React it will just solidify what you know and what you really do I would say so what's boss I would echo what those guys said I think several of these courses are already well done another one is even brighter that's courses that you can be they are super cheap I took out one of his React two of his React courses each one of that would be like 13 dollars that's a rip off wait until they kind of know why did you say that first for 13 is that the end of it is like did you like this? you're a coupon code for money off so the next one you got to like that what was the insert first one Steven it's been phd it's like it's like it's a really good though React it's a fun one it's an advanced one both of them are just like it's like you were sitting out with somebody else and you guys were like can you show me how to build a simple React app anything I would need to do he just does that a couple times in a row like here's the first one it's pretty simplistic it's hard to finish here once you master that the second one is a little more complex it's a hard to finish here's the third one by the end of the course you build three things and you have the second and third build on the skills you learned the first one it is really good what else do you want me to mention? yeah I'm a good person yes sorry I was going to add one more thing I was going to add I would push back a little bit on the the idea that you don't really have to be familiar with React the more I take into it I find that like in React there's a difference between what's called a stateless functional component where it just takes in some properties or something out and there's something called a stateful component where it has an internal state if you're if you're making pretty simplistic blocks there's that stateless functional component way that's actually tree-gold and you need to understand how React works in Goober you can say if my edit function does this if my state function does this if you're building more complex blocks where they need to keep track of their internal state I would say you really need to know React because you can extend its components and then to create the state object that you update the different points in the when the user is clicking around and you can direct and update that state you can react to the methods we're doing now like that's that state really having to learn that and update the internal state of that component and also life cycle methods too if you're digging into Goober you will notice some of their blocks they've written use these functions like component build mount component did mount if you don't know what React is you'll just think like that's the name that you come up with you know you don't really understand you won't see that stuff being called anywhere either that's the other thing you just have to know if you know a little bit about React though you know that oh component did mount that's the thing React calls automatically whenever component did mount it and it's being displayed the things like that I would just say like before you dig into it the more that would be over the form if I understand like the life cycle method when you see them what those are and then how to update the state inside and so if you're like if that's how you know what what internal state it means you know I would say like don't start there I would say simple group of blocks and then if there's a need you can track with that like my previous anybody who's in my talk earlier second block, the dynamic one that's some internal stages you can take over that for a simple example you can track of like what do you last interactions were and then if there's a different thing it opens in and you can hang on the new internal state what it's like so the next question was sorry with mobile being such a big part of what we do mobile first being a mentality that we've been spreading towards these last few years how does Gutenberg facilitate mobile layouts you want to take that one so I think there's just something to think about now is where Gutenberg is today and where it's going I think very much what I believe is that they're going to keep inching closer and closer to the truth where you see what you get where the back end and the front end are going to start with water I'm logged in and I'm on my site I can sort of title it I think that's what we're going to do so I think with that you're going to start to see it if you saw in his talk he shows the code there is style for the front end and the back end so I do believe from what I've seen the style sheets and start to have your back end react to it based on the screen size I think that there's still going to be a spectrum tool and some things that we have to figure out and I would never like to hand it on the back end just personal preference I think there's something for use of that actually that we've got on desktop that people have to figure out if we're really moving to a mobile editing but for content it's all one of the things that I've noticed too you know, everybody was engaged about meta-boxes of Gutenberg how are they going to work? the sky is falling just cats and dogs living together in the master's area and then they fixed it and it was fine, like you can use it now and so to answer your question if it's not working on mobile now it doesn't mean it's never going to work on it but Helen you brought up accessibility or sorry Brian you did there's some serious problems with accessibility there doesn't mean that Gutenberg is at this state where they're just giving up on it just an important trial and to continue on your point eventually front end and back end will be seamless which will be editing what is the front end experience that experimentation is already happening with Gutenberg the customizer that started out as the theme customizer the entire site experience customizer has gained a lot of cool tech in the last year Gutenberg is coming and the customizer team and the Gutenberg team have been playing with many ideas together so that you're working with Gutenberg and the customizer silently is and it's cool to be right now there's nothing done but it paints a really neat looking future that's very exciting and even recently I read about some projects on github where somebody has more of an experiment and anything else has exposed Gutenberg to the front end where the painting would usually be along the right side of the screen the admin there showing there on the front end making things editable there which is kind of interesting What's the what we're looking at for the release of the core for Gutenberg and are you guys using plugin in any production site for clients right now the question to the reader what's the projected release date for Gutenberg merging into core and are any of us using the Gutenberg plugin as is on the production site what do you think nobody knows the answer number one they were they've been saying we're going to 5.0 what they're striving for and you all are probably familiar with WordPress like annual themes that they've created long time back in 2013 there wasn't one this year because they had a lot of work to do with all their effort all the focus into getting the looper off the door so that's where really all the emphasis is right now but I mean we still have a lot of accessibility issues to address because I've mentioned about inline images and column plots 600 open issues that get up to 3.0 the amount of total open versus what they've closed they've been working so it sounds like there's a lot there's been a lot that's kind of done to them just to their front it's not unclear right now I think one of the best parts about this project is it sounds a little scary it doesn't have a specific deadline because they want to do it when it's ready as opposed to choosing an arbitrary game and kind of rush it out there and receive it I'm getting a vibe that's taking a little longer than I think people were planning but that's okay because we're building it out to a legal standard today in December there was a lot of optimism that it could be done by April and on Tuesday it will be May because anybody hasn't looked at a calendar recently and it's not ready yet last I heard was they're shooting for this year so hopefully this year but I think the longer that we the better we release it we get the agri-ass hiccups and I think it is such a huge shift in the way that we're pressing work for so long that they just want the nation to take the time and it's taking too long so I don't know about it is webbed using it in production for anybody yet? no intentionally we're not using it right now for the issues that I mentioned in line with Giz columns I think the baseline for like whether you should use it right now to me is it worse than the current editor anyway the answer is yes you can't use certain things in line with Giz I don't think it's ready yet you probably want to make sure you do all those things before layering on fancy live previews so yeah we're not using it right now we're getting ready we just like open sourced our block it's probably a different plan I'm using a client project with some of the basic blocks I think most clients will need and then on top of that we'll create a possible to make money for the project but yeah we're going to call that a printout and get ready for it we're going to open some stuff we're working internally we've got some sites that are public facing but they're not clients that are managing it so if a site could be simple enough to be just like a band play out or we've got a hero image and then like content and whatnot and you know we call it columns and all that stuff we've done good use to it already as it was but I don't I don't think that what you're saying I don't think I would turn it over to a client to use with right now but it's not the baseline function and I don't think you could into WP sessions in the next couple of months but that's fine I have a follow-up and then while you're in a vehicle is it able to feature on HootBird for most types I think that's a good one so the question is can you enable HootBird for specific post types and right now I think that is yes I think by default it's enabled everywhere but you can explicitly say don't blow HootBird for anything except this one post type HumanMade is one example they're an agency based on a new date they rebuilt their own site focusing on HootBird and wrote a beautiful blog about detailing some of the challenges their site is cryptically hmn.md so HumanMade with zero columns thank you sir I got like two and a half overview questions will HootBird be mandatory is it the largest overhaul and if so why is it mandatory so is it mandatory but there is a video that requests like the last time I heard about that situation is that once the one gets released it will be rolled out as the editor but there is a plugin that is like older I'm going to cover the whole thing that plugin if installed shuts down so I think it's time to go there will be a way to map our path to upgrade do you have a site that you want to stay or steam that you built it with otherwise otherwise I believe it's the current plan I'm going to say two awesome versions I think it's the biggest overhaul ever from my collection I think the WordPress API and this are close because those two things it's like a toy box now hopefully able to do my buddy did a talk downstairs about the WordPress API and how you can actually don't have your front-end need WordPress driven you can have a single application that is fueled by WordPress and the toolness and the ease and the ability of WordPress to control your data then you're just following it up to some apps on the house so I think that's going to be really cool then you can work right behind it now we're able to kind of almost see visually the layouts and have all those tools that you can build yourself so I'd say it's up there and you have a third question that's awesome what makes your overhaul such a I think it's because I think that is like the biggest takeaway but I think it's also just like changing how so all the way back to like the beginning we've got all these builders that do cool stuff I personally do things in a certain way building them in a certain way Gutenberg's kind of standardizing that so in the future we can keep building cool things we're not everyone's like on the advanced custom fields like this for the post type data then layer on top of that you've got your visual composer or beaver build beaver build I don't use that one so I don't know don't go to that so everyone's going to be in a different way right and so we've got all these people that have really really strong suits and I like the visual composer because everything's just a bucket of whatever I'm going to drop it all in because it's super good and I use it all the time but it's taking all their strong suits and then giving them an underline base to build on so that whether you switch from this strong area of customization or this area over here because we've got really cool like slider, carousel, thingamabob all of that now can play on a level of playing field and you swap from there so yes, Lizzie may click but I think there's a lot more to it and that'll be good and six months later it's going to be awesome to be developed the biggest UI change was actually from WordPress 2.5 to 2.6 maybe it was 2.6 to 2.7 where complete admin interface changed and had a horizontal navigation across the top and then what was known as the crazy worse layout which has the navigation down the side and probably there were many wonderful refines that have been iterated about and it was awesome. This is the single biggest change to the editor since WordPress was created it's been a tiny FCE since the beginning and that has brought with it all of the wonderful challenges that it has had and now getting rid of that to make what should be, as I said a very fluid editing experience where you just start typing as you're getting editor to create a new paragraph it's putting in new blocks you don't even realize what you wrote let's go in from three separate paragraph blocks to one single bullet in this block you say, oh no I didn't want to do that it goes back to being three separate but it's doing lots of really cool stuff behind the scenes and you don't even have to worry about that it's just seamless and simple that's why I think it's such a big deal it's so nice it's kind of like you're saying when you talk about biggest change rest API was like a huge under the hood change open up the platform a whole bunch of ways in terms of ways that an average user who doesn't need to look at the code goes to see probably the biggest change yeah yeah and a few other things I was thinking about that related to sites being updated to WordPress and the option to use the classic editor and bugging and all that kind of stuff one thing, important thing to note I think is that when food work drops there will be a major release not a point release so that means as many of you made it on WordPress now there's automatic updates for point releases but not major releases so you never have to worry about like when my live site is in the mid when food work goes live there's my second auto update there's just great things you can hit the big button and intentionally know you're going to 5.0 so just be aware of that I guess what else do we have oh biggest change yeah, what these guys said or like custom code states come to mind too going from post-preview to only two anything you can see about books and recipes or the big ones you're like form an edition like he was saying but not yet as developers which I'm not who use if you use Beaver Builder or Elementor or one of them do you think that the integration with Gutenberg will result in leaner, faster loading sites built with these state builders if you're not a developer it's super great your questions are awesome your questions are amazing the question was will all these things moving to Gutenberg lead to faster load times I think yes the reason why is because to pull off a lot of that non-core functionality if you look at like the panel or the console and what's loading it's a lot of JavaScript, a lot of style everything gets injected like at runtime so all that current can be optimized through WordPress port and also through just the standardized way of things so I think inevitably yes would be my answer but there's still a chance that someone could go in and cause that to not be a yes so it should move it in a faster, speedier way I can't say forever I'd say that's generally true there are some layout editors that are already good actors and they compile everything down to HTML and post content so there is no real time stuff for the page loads and others that are which brings back to the fluid point I made earlier short codes are how we insert complicated things into our content area now that's just stupid now you just have a block there it is there's my own I was doing a simple picture text next to a layout and a builder that I was doing and I did the same thing to Gutenberg and the markup I got out of that simple layout the builder was insane there's just divs to an inline style what happened Gutenberg was just a picture block next to it, it was very reasonable so I think in that respect we definitely have a lot of time I've been brought to my ginger mill all the time I want to thank our panelists for contributing to this because I have questions you can come up and ask any of us afterwards ask me if you have questions if you have questions about telling my talk from earlier this morning we're around all day and we love talking about this stuff so find us, corner us, talk to us we want to answer your questions thanks everybody