 What is up all of you beautiful people in YouTube land? It is Chris and I am back. All right, those of you who are new, you're probably like, who the hell is this guy? But for those of you who are longtime subscribers asking where I've been, well, you should know because I've been doing the podcast for a while. I have been super busy. I have fallen behind uploading these episodes and I'm super excited for you all to watch today's because it's about a fellow YouTuber, Teal Swan who recently was the highlight of a docu series. So I actually have the creators on here, all right? So I'm gonna introduce the conversation but give me a minute because I'm also gonna give you an update about the YouTube channel, all right? So anyways, those of you who don't know if you're not familiar with Teal Swan, she has been a very controversial figure here on YouTube. She, back in the day, long time ago when I was doing a lot of mental health content, a lot of people were like, hey, Chris, you got to check out Teal Swan, let us know your thoughts, all these other things and I just never really got around to it. I checked it out, she seemed like she was like spiritual self-help type person and I wasn't really sure what was going on, right? But anyways, when this docu series came out and this is like, it just came out a couple of months ago but when people told me to check into her it was about three years ago that's actually when the docu series was filmed and I watched this docu series, I'm like, oh my God, I need to talk to the creators of this. So you'll hear about it in this conversation but anyways, after every episode, Teal made videos about every single episode and the reality that she was living in was so much different than what was filmed. So we discussed this, because I was like, what's happening, you know? Because she was saying a lot of things were edited and made to make her look a certain way but as a viewer, I didn't see any of that, right? And I try to watch these things very objectively. So we discussed a bunch of that in this conversation and yeah, I think this topic is really important because there are a lot of self-help people out there and as many of you know, I'm a huge advocate for mental health. I believe like, hey, if you have the resources, go to therapy, see a psychiatrist and all that but something we discussed in this conversation is a lot of people go to people like Teal Swan because they had a bad experience in therapy, right? So anyways, I'm super glad I was able to talk to John and Biss, get some clarification on some of the things that Teal is disputing but just a heads up too, there are some names that have been edited out of this as you'll hear in this conversation, there are people who are fans of Teal Swan like Die Hard fans who have been attacking others. So I tried to edit out some names and things like that just to make sure, you know, we don't send any unnecessary hate towards anybody who didn't even know this was being recorded. So if you notice some little jumps in the audio, that's what that is, all right? But anyways, anyways, for all of you who are like, man, I miss Chris and I've actually, believe it or not, I've actually had a couple of people say they miss me but I am going to be coming back to YouTube, okay? I got myself a brand new mic, I need to get my camera set up, my girlfriend and I, we had to move not too long ago so I'm still, I'm working on setting up this office area but I'm coming back to YouTube and yeah, stay tuned. I'm not sure when the first video is going to be out. I have really been loving long form video essays. I've been watching just so many, so many. And I'm like, you know, I want to get back into this. So yeah, I'm going to experiment a little because this channel might be just 100% dead, like not dead, like nobody will watch but dead as in the algorithms not really showing any love. So I might have to start a new channel. So make sure you're following me on Instagram and Twitter at the Reward Soul because right now my plan is to maybe do two or three, maybe four or five videos on this channel, see how it goes. And it seems like the algorithms like nope, we're not promoting your videos at all. I'll probably end up making a new channel, getting a fresh start and stuff like that. So make sure you're following me so you're not just like, oh God, Chris just disappeared again. And if you followed me, you would know that I never really went anywhere. I've just been focusing on the podcast but doing a ton of writing and all that. But for those of you who have hung around, you stay subscribed and all that. I love you, you're amazing. And if you're new, make sure you subscribe and do yourself a favor, go check out this series that deep end that John and Bits created around Teal Swam. It's very interesting. And I think anybody who cares about mental health, if you're interested in cults and things like that, make sure you go check out this series. Very interesting, it's only four episodes. It's on Hulu, that's where I watched it. I'm not sure where else is streaming but definitely on Hulu. So go check it out. And then I also recommend you check Teal's videos to see what her side is, all right? But anyways, without further ado, here's my conversation with John and Bits about their experience filming the deep end. All right, hello Bits and John. Thanks so much for joining me. And yeah, to get started, let's have you both kind of introduce yourself to those in the audience who are unfamiliar with both of you and your work. So yeah, Bits, go ahead and give us a little bit of who you are and a little bit of your background. Okay, a bit of my background. I mean, I've been working in documentary for a few years now and I've always really been interested in this, you know, verite approach to filmmaking where we're able to have, you know, really deep personal experiences that we're able to then translate to audiences in the work that I do and have done in the past. And when I met John a few years ago, it was just a really lovely symbiosis that we found together. So we worked on a feature together and then launched into the deep end and what else is there to say? I'm drawn to situations where I have more questions than answers on the first look and that's really what drew me into this project and to working with John because I think we have that in common. John, take it away. Yeah, my name is John Caspy. I'm the director on the deep end. I've been making documentaries for about 10 years now. And I'm always interested in opposing perspectives and dichotomy. It's something I was exposed to a lot as a kid and I found that it has translated in my work. My first feature is called When Lands Become Lions and that took a look at the ivory trade in Kenya and showing both sides of that. And most recently just finished a film that we premiered at Tribeca called Sophia which is about an artificial intelligence robot and taking a look at, you know, a few perspectives on that as well. And now, you know, the deep end series we're all here to talk about. Yeah, awesome. So, yeah, I guess like let's dive into the deep end. Like I was super interested in it. I think I mentioned it when I first reached out to you too. Long time ago on YouTube because I was covering like a lot of like mental health topics because I'm like in addiction recovery, used to work in rehab. And a lot of people were like, hey, have you heard about this lady Teal Swan? Like what are your thoughts and everything? And I just never got around to it. So when your, your documentary series popped up, I'm like, let's check it out. I'm like, what's going on? All right, so first I'm just curious, what inspired this series? Did one or both of you like come across Teal's work and say we need to figure out what's going on? Did you hear like conversations going on? How did this whole series come about? Yeah, so this actually started with the production company that I worked with on my first feature. They're called the documentary group. They reached out to me and shared with me this podcast that had been made about Teal and some other work on her as well. And that's what really started it off. And I think immediately for me, I was seeing a very clear dichotomy in the way that people were reacting to her. I mean, on one hand, you had a bunch of followers who were saying things like this person saved my life. This person can see all truth. And on the other hand, you had a group of critics who were saying things like this person is not trained and they're actually quite dangerous and their work is causing people to commit suicide. So right off the bat, I think that tension between those two perspectives immediately kind of grabbed my attention. But then on top of that, it was really clear from looking at Teal and watching videos of her online, this is a really charismatic, fascinating character. I think of storytellers. Those are the type of people that we're always drawn to and trying to understand. So at the beginning, I was just excited to meet her. I was excited to get to know her, to understand how she thinks, how she moves through the world and ideally be able to bring audiences into that experience as well. Mm-hmm, yeah. So I'm curious, as you were researching this and you saw these opposing views and everything like that, she does have a lot of content out there. And I'm wondering, did it seem beforehand like there was more positive than negative? And one of the main reasons I'm asking to is just coming from a mental health background and I read a ton of books from the self-help gurus where Teal would kind of fall into just world-renowned psychiatrists and psychologists, people doing research and stuff, right? And I see the blend, I got sober in 12-step programs, right? Where people are like, that's not science, but it saved my life. So I get the split opinion. So what would you say the split was like before you two jumped into this of the opposing reactions? Was it mainly positive or mainly negative? I would say most of the press, the press I was seeing was like the Gizmodo podcast and the BBC video and Vice put out an article and Vice recently put out another documentary as well about Teal. Most of all of the press I was seeing was negative and it was holding, the angle that all of it was taking was that Teal swan and her work is causing people to commit suicide. That was about everything that we were seeing at the time. Yeah. And so that was that side. And then the positive things were here and were really from people who had spent time with Teal who had been to her workshops who would consider themselves followers. And I think that's what really kind of drew us into the beginning is like, there's this group of people who are saying she's really wise and intuitive and doing great, great work. So why is it that the media and the press is telling this other story? Yeah, so I'd like to hear both of your thoughts like going into it, right? Based on the research and usually I'm talking with authors on here. So I'm curious like how do you approach a project like this? Do you try to like just wipe all the outside opinions from you so it doesn't like skew how you do it? Cause we're going to dive in a little bit later about how she perceived it to be filmed and edited and all that. But what's that like for both of you? Like did you have like any prior thoughts? Do you try to like erase that? What's that process like? I think we both try to do that. I think it's really important in the work that we do and given the length of time that we spend in making any of our projects to understand that it's going to be a journey and you don't know exactly where it's gonna go and you never know. I mean, it's really similarly like COVID happening like the world moves in unpredictable ways and people move in unpredictable ways. So certainly, and I'll speak for myself going into this project or any projects you look around a bit to understand maybe some of the larger questions that are circling a person or a scenario. And then I know for myself and I think we'd be aligned in this that I realized that I don't know from personal experience what's gonna happen. I don't know what the experience is gonna be like in a engaging in a long-time relationship with anyone who we film with. And so I think that takes the wheel and we suddenly in this are endeavoring to portray very much our experience there. So we're open to what that experience could be. And I think just to piggyback off of what Bitz was saying I think that also allows you the opportunity to add to the conversation which I think is a really important piece in this. You know, like we wanted to learn enough before going in to know what was being said and then making sure that, you know we weren't necessarily telling a story that already been told because it wasn't necessary and we saw an opportunity here to tell a story that we weren't seeing told. And that was a present tense story from within this community. Not only had I not seen that done with Teal's community I hadn't really seen that done with any community. Most of the films and series I'd seen about groups like this are told in the past tense where you're seeing people who have gotten out of them and then talking about what it was like when they were in it. And for me and Bitz, you know it felt like an opportunity where we approached Teal and kind of told her what we wanted to do and how the process works. We let her know, you know we'll be filming all the time and there's an editing process and we wanna understand all the different perspectives around what's going on. And it was interesting, you know her team or her manager is actually the one who connected us to critics of Teal and gave us names of people who were against her and connected us to the private investigator and that sort of opened up those doors for us. But you know, again, it goes back to we wanted to add to the conversation and do something we hadn't seen done before and this felt like an opportunity to kind of bring audiences front and center into the vortex of this inner circle and to see the impact Teal's work was having. Yeah, yeah. And you know, as you two are talking to like I'm thinking about like my own like experience like back in 2019 I had all this stuff come up and like, since I was in the mental hold space I know what it's like to have these critics just saying outlandish things, right? So I try to go into these things like hey, I know how articles, you know might be written and stuff. Like I think you both like mentioned vice like vice interviewed me for something a while back and I'm like, whoa, what are you guys doing it? So I appreciate both going into it like that, right? And then, you know, watching it I'm like, it seems like it's kind of hard to make this look a different way than it's filmed but if I'm not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong did you work on the Nextium docu-series as well, right? I did, yeah, the vow. Got it, okay. So here's a question that I've been dying to ask somebody because I watch all of these and mainly my curiosity comes from like how do people get into this? How do people get sucked in and then see this person that's like this kind of like God-like figure, right? Because we see it everywhere. You can see it like with Donald Trump's following, right? And that's just really interesting to me but when it, because Nextium, you guys were like in there too like as things were going on and talking with people who left and all this other stuff when you're going in and you're setting this up and you're getting teal to agree, right? Here's what I'm always wondering is there this kind of like, I don't like to use the word but like narcissistic type or like giant ego going into this like I'm an amazing human being. When you film me, everybody's gonna see how amazing I am. Cause sometimes I'm like, why did you all agree to let people film you this long? You know, it seems like they don't see it for what it is and there's a lot of self-deception which is another topic that I'm very curious about. So do you get that vibe going into this stuff? I think something that's true of all and again, like every project is different. I think we all, and I'm gonna try not sound too lofty when I say this, I think there is a need that a lot of people have on myself have to feel seen and to feel seen and understood and when you get that and when you get presence from someone and that could be in a filming capacity that could just be in a person to person capacity. I think that can be a really great feeling and or maybe not a great, I mean, it depends how you feel about whatever you're going through and I think one of the hardest things in what we do is that that reflection can sometimes, there are gonna be parts of that reflection that do feel familiar and resonant to you and parts that maybe don't and that's on the eye of the beholder but in terms of going in and saying like, do I think in this position, there was a narcissistic quality? I don't think I'm like qualified to make that determination but I think for anyone and John and I have had this experience too of we to understand what it's like to be in a project like this, we've turned the cameras on ourselves and gone through that process ourselves and there's something I think there's certainly some catharsis and feeling of understanding and doing that. And I mean, the other thing to say is like to bring it to Teal a little bit more, I remember at the very beginning of this process when we went and kind of just had the conversation about what filmmaking is and let her know that we'll be filming all the time and how it's gonna be edited and we were very transparent about all of that up front. One thing Teal said is she, yeah one thing Teal said is she was like, I really appreciate your honesty and that you're just being open about all of this, like this is something new for us, we haven't had someone come to us and kind of tell us what the process is like and she said to me, I'm never gonna tell you to turn your camera off and she's like, I actually feel safer when the cameras pointed at me and it's because I've been through so much abuse in my past that when the cameras pointed at me, I know whatever happens is gonna be documented and that provides safety. And so for me and for us as storytellers, we're like, wow, well, this is so interesting, like this is someone who is totally comfortable being filmed and over time, after the first year of filming, I think we started to realize that Teal really believes in herself on what she's doing and what she stands for and there's almost this kind of like unapologetic energy to her method and to her ambition and she felt like she had nothing to hide and I don't think she sees herself as problematic and she does have a deep, deep, deep desire to be seen. So I think it's kind of the combination of all those things is what led to this documentary taking off. Yeah, I will say if I may, I know it's the longest answer in history, that we always are also transparent along the way and it creates anyone we're filming, you can tell us at any time to put the cameras down if you turn to us directly and ask us to do that, we will always do so. And to John's point, I think about Teal certainly standing behind what she's doing and what she's saying consistently. I don't, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I think that we were asked to stop and obviously would have done so if we were us. We were asked to stop quite a bit at the retreats so when people would come to her to learn in the collision process or come to her to heal, that all the time people would say, please stop filming and for us, if there's no questions asked, possibly put the cameras down immediately. Teal, I don't think ever said it. I can't think of a single time Teal asked us to stop. Yeah, that's really, that's really interesting. I guess, and I guess we'll dive into the meat of this and for the audience too, like the main reason I wanted to reach out to you both is you two are the very first like non-author, non, like just people in that sphere, like you're the first documentarians on this podcast. But like I love the series, but what just blew my mind even more was as I was watching, I was like, I wonder if Teal is like talking about this? And I went to her YouTube channel and I think it was after the first two episodes and she had to recap to both. But anyways, that's when I was like, I need to reach out to these people. Like I need to reach out because I feel like, like just reality is just skewed in some way. I was so confused. So that's why I reached out to you too. So I highly recommend people go check those videos out and compare it because I was like, wait a second, wait, wait, wait a second, because she perceived you and the editing team as creating a certain narrative, cutting and all these other things. And you know, like I've been on YouTube for a while. I know how editing goes. I know like, you know, and obviously you have to create a story, but I guess I want to start out with, have you both watched all of her recap videos of it? And what was your reaction as you watched these? Like, I don't know. Like for me, I was like, I think I'm taking crazy pills. I don't know what's happening. So can you- You were surprised. We were also, we also felt like we're on those same pills. We were taking the same ones. I mean, I remember, I remember from the very first one, the very first reaction episode one, she was against the show and criticizing it and calling all these things out that I didn't even understand. Like there were contradictions within her responses that didn't totally make sense to me. But for us, you know, we've watched all four of them and we sort of stepped back. And as we've reflected on this, it's like, given what we said to her and the expectations we set at the beginning of this and the number of conversations we had and how unambiguous we were with her and her manager about our scope of work, I don't know what she expected beyond that. You know, we told them what we were going to do and we did exactly that. We said, we're going to spend a lot of time here. We're going to take a close look at your community. We're going to film an edit of what we see happen and what we feel like is important. And I think at the end of that process, there were really three kind of pillars that rose to the surface that you see in the show. I mean, the first one is the internal conflict with our group, which you see play out. The second one is this idea that you're seeing people come in from the outside looking for help and having mixed results. And then the third one was that they hire a private investigator to determine if they're our cult or not and you see the results of that play out. And you know, those are the things we witnessed while we were there. And I think for me and for us as storytellers, when you agree to give access to filmmakers, you agree to subject yourself to a process. So on one hand, we're really surprised by it. On the other hand, like, I mean, but to talk about this, I don't know how surprised we can be by this because her response to the whole series is very aligned with how we've seen her treat other people who have left the group or who disagree with her teachings. And this process of kind of crafting an alternative narrative to just credit people who push against her, like we've seen it happen. We're seeing it happen right now. And if you dig, you know, if you search on the internet, there's other people like and even, you know, are going through that, but I don't know. I think for me, similar to you, I've been encouraging people to watch them because I've had a lot of people reach out to me and say like, you know, I watched your series and it was incredible and it really made me think about healing and it made me think about mental health and it made me think about these things and I was really conflicted about a lot of it. And then I saw her, I saw her reaction videos and it took away all ambiguity. It's very clear now who this is and what this is. So I've been encouraging people to watch them. I think they're really telling. Yeah. What was your reaction like when you saw it? And I guess, by the way, like, did you guys have like a watch party? Did you get the whole crew together and say like, hey, let's see what Teal's saying or were you all watching individually and like texting each other? Like, what the hell is happening? Like, how is that? We didn't. I just been, it's just been a process. I think following really is to try to understand. We honestly, we were surprised by each reaction. I think there were things in there that we were confused by certainly. I mean, John, I needed it, but I didn't think it was a celebratory. It's not a celebratory thing. And we've also never experienced anything like this. Like we've never made a documentary and had the people in it respond the way in which she is. So on that sense, it's very concerning and shocking and surprising. On the other hand, I think it's dangerous in a way because what this has led to is a lot of all of her followers. Well, I mean, a lot of the people that listed her and take what she says at face value, going after the people in this series. Oh, wow. Yeah. I hadn't even thought about that. As I mentioned in 2019, you see this, especially with YouTube, I've noticed it more on YouTube than probably anywhere else is these parasocial relationships, right? Like people defending whoever it is. Like a lot of them, like a lot of these other YouTubers aren't even in this like kind of self-help you saved my life realm. It's like, you know, a Logan Paul and those kids will come after you and say like, you're in peace of shit or, you know, PewDiePie or whatever. And I hadn't even thought about that. But, you know, just to speak to my personal experience, like getting sober through 12 step programs, you get a sponsor, right? And you're told to like, look for somebody who has what you want, right? Like you find someone like, I'm brand new sober. This guy's five years sober. And it's like, do I want to be where this person is in five years? Okay, that's how I was always taught, you know? And I started seeing people who had years of sobriety and they were still acting wild, right? I remember meeting people like, yeah, I've been sober for seven years, but I got arrested for like domestic violence. I'm like, okay, that's not what I wanted to get out. But anyways, what I'm getting at is, you know, cause I'm in no position to diagnose anything like that. But as I'm watching this, I'm like, it personally feels like Teal has stuff to work on, but she's guiding so many other people. And I think another example of that, that I'm not sure how close you follow this guy, but Jordan Peterson, right? There's been so much news about him lately. And as a recovering addict who has worked with thousands of addicts, I'm like, this guy was gone for over a year because of a Xanax addiction. He comes back, releases his second self-help book and all of his followers just seem to have completely disregarded and nobody asks, is this person who should be guiding me and teaching me how to get to a better place? So when you were talking with the people who attend her groups and things like that, did you see any kind of common threads? Like something I'm always wondering, are a lot of these people like specifically with Teal, like are a lot of these people, people who try traditional mental health treatment like therapy, medications and stuff, they didn't work or they had a bad experience. And that's what led them here because I've noticed that a lot with like, you know, these kind of like pseudoscientific medicines and treatments and stuff. And I'm curious if that's the same, what was that like? We did meet a lot of people who had had those experiences that they relate to us, that they had tried traditional mental health avenues or had been unable to continue to afford. Oh yeah. You know, and I think it really speaks to, part of what interested us certainly was like the backdrop, I think of this mental health crisis in this country, but also all around the world, which is, you know, if you feel failed by a traditional provider, or if you're unable to continue that treatment and there feels like there's another option and there are answers available there. You know, I think a lot of that's a really alluring proposition. Yeah. Yeah, and has it shifted how you both like see what's going on with the mental health crisis? Like what's going on? Like for me when I watch it, because I'm always wondering, especially when people join these groups or whatever it is, I'm like, what happened and who mistreated you or you know, working in treatment, I know I notice a lot of people have childhood trauma. So there's a lot like, I'm like, hey parents, get your shit together because we're messing up our kids. But anyways, has it made you think about like, hey, what are therapists? It's like, how are you just doing that, that push somebody into the arms like a teal? How are you both viewing the mental health scenario in the world today? I mean, yes, the answer is yes, it definitely challenged our preconceived notions around that in a way that I think we both really appreciated. And I think it's also what's so complicated about teal is that there are things that are troubling, but there's also a lot of things that she's saying that make a lot of sense. And I think that's what makes us such a murky situation. But in terms of the mental health question, yeah, I mean, one of the things that teal says that has always stuck with me is she says, you know, it's not what's wrong with you, it's what happened to you. And we're gonna look at, we're gonna look at healing through that perspective. And personally, I found that really encouraging and safe to think about it that way. And I think a lot of the people coming to teal as Vitz was saying, are really vulnerable, have felt like mental health systems and therapy and all of that have really failed them. And I think for Vitz and I, and a lot of people on our team, like there was a very personal element to this where we have friends and we have family members who have felt failed by their therapist, who have felt failed by traditional medicine that is supposed to help you with depression, that's supposed to help you with anxiety. And I think we were finding it more and more, it just started making more and more sense why people would turn to someone like teal. Why someone would turn to someone on Instagram or on YouTube, putting out a message that clicks and makes sense and is digestible. And the thing that I think I wrestled with a lot is like I've done a lot of therapy over the last five years and one thing I really love about it is that the therapist I have been working with, he oftentimes leads me down a path but really lets me take ownership of the conclusion. And so when I have a breakthrough, it's mine. And I think what teal is doing is very different. I think what she's doing is she's giving people answers and she's able to do that because of these supernatural abilities that she says that she has around being able to see people's truth, around being able to predict the future about being able to have universal perspective on all things. So when someone goes up on stage with her, most of the time what I saw were people accepting whatever said at face value and taking it on as their own and believing it fully. And I think that's where it gets a little bit tricky because we saw some examples where someone would spend an hour with her on stage and afterwards they'd be like, that totally changed my life. That was 10 years of therapy, compressed in one hour, I'm so thankful. And we were like, that's amazing. Like we're excited for you on your way. And there were other times where we saw people go up there and have an experience that seemed to unsettle them, that didn't seem true to them and they're really trying to make sense of what was told to them, but couldn't. So I think for us, the takeaway in all of this and how we kind of contextualize it within the mental health field is that, anytime you're in a position where you have someone else determining what is right or wrong for you, you're putting yourself at risk. And I think that's kind of our takeaway from this whole thing. And we experienced that ourselves personally and we saw a lot of people go through that and that risk isn't always realized. And it's not necessarily just in communities like this. I think it can be happening in the workplace when you're in an extreme job, it can happen in religion, it could happen in your family. So that idea of staying skeptical, questioning the people around you, trusting your gut and holding onto your agency I think is really important. And I hope that this show encourages more people to do that. Yeah, yeah. Did you have something you were gonna add to that, Bitz? No, well I was just gonna say that there's no one size fits all which we all know for everything. And I actually, I've never had, I've read books that have opposing perspectives on mental health topics and I don't see anything wrong with taking the parts that are useful from both of them and not subscribing entirely to each of them. And yeah, I would just second John's notion that that is it's about maintaining some element of trust within yourself as you move through those processes so that you can know at the end of it that you're building yourself with help and you're responsible for that journey. Yeah, it's something that I think about quite a bit, right? Like there's that saying or like parable, like when the student is ready the teacher will appear, right? Like I was in my drug addiction for nearly a decade. I just celebrated 10 years but I'm only here because I was finally ready, right? Like I tried 12 step programs before. I went to treatment before, none of it worked. And 10 years ago in 2012 when I went back to 12 step programs, it all just clicked. They weren't saying anything. News, those fools have been saying that same thing for a hundred years but it finally clicked. And what worries me, and I think there's kind of what you're touching on and maybe you have the same concern is that when someone's ready but the person they interact with is somebody like this, right? Like I'm finally ready to hear what needs to be heard but it might be a bad situation. It's not just teal either. I've seen this with bad therapists but with what you're talking about John with therapy like you just nailed it. Like you're talking about him like John's got a bad ass therapist, right? Because like that's what they're supposed to do. My girlfriend, she actually just finished her her master's program, right? In social work and we're watching this thing and my girlfriend's losing her shit. She's like, what is this? Because like I'm saying it's like you're giving answers and not like guiding the person to kind of figure it out. I think that builds this kind of reliance on the person because if they're just feeding you answers now you haven't grown the strength to walk on your own and you need to keep turning back to these people but I do want to circle back to the whole like perception teal had while watching it because you touched on the private investigate, okay? And here's the part that really messed me up. I think this is actually when I'm like, okay I need to reach out to these people. So those who haven't watched them just spoil it a little bit, right? Teal and her team hired a private investigator. They brought in somebody from the outside and they said, hey, people are saying we're a cult. People are saying we lead people to suicide. We're gonna take our money, we're gonna hire you come investigate us and find out, right? The only reason I know that information is because I watched your damn documentary. I saw all of this explained. So I am a viewer, right? Then I turn on YouTube, I go to Teal's YouTube channel and I think in more than one video she's telling the audience and she's like, oh by the way, we're the ones who hired her. She's not independent. And I'm like, why would anybody think otherwise? You know what I mean? So that's when I'm like, is she seeing what is real or you know, whatever? So can you kind of explain like, I don't know I guess your reaction to that? And as well as, cause it looks like you interviewed the investigator on her own too. Like was there anything that you learned from her and her research or about how they assess cults and all that kind of stuff? I mean, that reaction from Teal is one that I cannot explain. I don't know why. And there was a lot of them like that. Like there were other ones where she was talking. Like I think it was the scene in the hot tub where she was saying I was angry or something because there was someone new coming in and I needed to like defend my thing. And the scene made it seem like I was something else or jealous or something. And I was like, no, that's what the scene was about. Like you're actually describing exactly what we saw and what I think the scene says and what everyone was telling us they're seeing I really had a hard time understanding her perspective when analyzing the show. And the, yeah, I thought the show made it really clear what we saw, which was that Teal hired this person. It's also interesting, you know, it's really, really clear as Matias is hiring her that he's hiring her to figure out if they're a cult or not and if they're responsible for the suicides or not. Like that's like, could it be more clear? And Teal now has a different story that she was hired to work on public image or something different that we never saw of that never knew that that was what she was being hired. So there's a lot of, I think, confusion, misinformation coming out right now with these videos. And in terms of the process, you know, it was super interesting. Like this was our first time following a PI. And, you know, when we started this project we had no idea like Matias connected us with, like that's how that came about. Like we'd never even thought that that was gonna be a thing or that they would hire someone to do that. But again, you know, it kind of goes back to the energy of the beginning of this whole process where Teal and Matias, the manager, were both saying things like, you know, we have nothing to hide and we want to know the truth and authenticity is the most important thing to us. And that's kind of what he was presenting to me when he hired her and sent her on this journey. But it was interesting, you know, I think his journey and what she was doing really opened up the conversation to be able to hear more voices and more perspectives about Teal, which I think was really valuable because, you know, it felt very insular when we were there. And a lot of the voices we were hearing were mostly Teal and her inner circle when we were in that community. And so being able to spend time with them to open up and to hear from people who used to be in the inner circle and had left and were able to speak on things that we were feeling and experiencing but couldn't quite put words to yet. I found personally really valuable and I hope that the audience does as well because there's something very grounding about it. And in, you know, Teal's world can be so floaty and it can be so hard to pin things down and to get straight answers. Just had no room for that. She had no room for that. She was like, yes or no, like, you know, which I appreciated and I hope the audience does too. I think it's important. Yeah, you know, the other thing that I love reading about is just kind of like groupthink and conformity because with Molly's investigation, what's interesting is like you said, like Teal's manager, like he was involved in it too. So it's not just Teal, right? You see this entire group reinforcing it and it's like an entire group creates this different reality and it's funny, my son's 13 and I've been reading books with him. Like I've been reading this book, You Are Not So Smart by David McCraney which teaches you a lot of like biases and heuristics and just thinking errors, right? And one of them I tell my son about is conformity. I'm like, hey, like there's the famous Ash conformity experiment. Sometimes it just takes one person to say, hey, what you're all seeing is not what's going on, you know? But as I'm watching, I'm like, everybody's reinforcing this, right? And then you're wondering is it like, are they really seeing this? Are they worried about losing their job, losing where they live or losing friends, right? Because I grew up in Las Vegas. I've been watching some of those recent like Mormon docu-series and stuff. I don't know if you saw that new one. But I grew up along with Mormons here and they're not, you know, in the fundamentalist group but there's still that if I leave this, I lose all my friends. I lose all my support, you know? So in that sense, it helps me empathize with people who join like QAnon or MAGA or whatever it is. But talking about that inner circle in this group, this tight knit group, please for the love of God explain this to me because another thing Teal kept saying is, you guys kept making a scene like they all live under the same roof, right? But they don't. Everybody lives in different areas and stuff. I'm watching it and I'm like, seems like a lot of people live together, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure if people just come and live for a little bit. But one thing that really stood out to me was when finally leaves, I see him packing a room. So like, if you don't live there, why are you packing your room? So can you explain what the living situation is like? Because I'm very confused. Absolutely, yeah. So over the course of three years, we filmed moving in and out of that house multiple times. And he had a room at Teal's house throughout, most of the time we were there. And once he arrived, he wanted more space. So he moved two minutes from Teal's house to live with her ex-husband. So he was two minutes away, but he kept his room at Teal's and he would be over there pretty much every day. And they'd crash there. And this was similar for other people in the inner circle. There are people who live in the house and there are other people who live very close by. And I'll just tell our men also and just say that we were there for sometimes large chunks of time, sometimes a few days, sometimes a few weeks. And this all took place over the course of three years. It was, I think the number of days is close to five months total or six months total, something like that. So there were also times when we weren't there. And I don't know who was living where when we weren't there, but from what we saw. Sorry, I just want to clarify that, that like there may have also been movements when we weren't there. Like, I don't know, but. Yeah. And then after that big, you look at the intervention, seeing that kind of like the last draw for both of them. And that was when packed up and he left and he moved to Salt Lake City with you. Yeah. Like 35 minutes away or so. Yeah, like that's kind of what I assume. I'm like, if they don't like all live together, they live pretty close, but real quick, what about the other like inner circle people? They live there like Teals, I believe it was her assistant or something that seems like she was there quite a bit, you know, but there becomes a situation. I'll, you know, say this about, you know, one of my girlfriends, right? Like she was there every day, right? She spent the night like 90% of the time, then we moved in together. I'm like, oh, this is pretty much the exact same thing. You know, so it seems like for us like, like splitting hairs at that point. So what about the rest of the group? Yeah. At home places? A few of the individuals do live there and have rooms there. And other folks live in very close proximity, but yeah, she says that home also with members of the inner circle. But the feeling is kind of what you were describing with your girlfriend where it's like, everyone's over there 90% of the time. And that's why, you know, it's for us in the editing process, it didn't seem, it didn't feel, and I still don't think it was something that we needed to clarify in terms of how we edited the show, because the reality is that everyone's over there constantly. Yeah, that was another weird aspect, right? Like part of me when I saw Teal kind of defending, oh, people don't live here. I'm just like, I don't really care. Like that's not like affecting a major part of this story. Like it's just- Not the issue. Yeah, there's so many things going on here. I'm like, I could care less who physically lives there, but it was just one of those weird things. I mentioned it in an email to you all, and this kind of leads into my next question because one of the accusations she had is, a lot of editing, she said that it was filmed over three years, which you both just said too, and she was like, they would film something from one day and slice it with another day to build a story and make me look bad. And I think it was episode four, I think it was the intervention one where she was talking about different days and I literally paused her video. I told my girlfriend, I'm like, hold on, I gotta check something. I go back to Hulu, I go to the episode and I go and I see what Teal's wearing, see what everybody's wearing, right? Then I fast forward to the part she said was sliced and I'm like, she's wearing the same damn thing. Like does she, does that just- And I can tell you, I will promise you, Teal Swan is not an outfit repeater. So can you like, you both seem pretty honest to me, like can you explain like over that three years how much was like chumped together? You know what I mean? Is that anything? And because if I did notice it, if I did notice like a voiceover, again, it was one of those like who lives there. I'm like, I don't really care, this didn't really affect anything. So what was the editing like? How much was taken, put them together? And, you know, from your perspective as like a storyteller as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, the scene that you're talking about the intervention scene, the scene where Blake is in the kitchen and Teal is really upset with him. Scenes like that where it's really clear that this is all happening in one place at a one time, that's what's happening there. That there's not things taken from other days to build. I remember Teal had some, she was saying something about like a hospital and footage from a hospital being used in the kitchen search. I have no clue what she's talking about. If I may, like also just so you know, some like some of those, you know, more group discussions, sometimes those could go on for several days and we would, you know, so there would be long processes of talking through one obstacle into personal conflict, which could be five, six, seven, eight hours one day and the following day. Wait, I mean, I see what you're saying. That one's a good example. Like that scene where they're going around and doing that, that's one day, that happened one day, but that event took place over three days. And this was something in the edit that was a real conversation because like there were things on other days where editors were like, I think this is what the scene should be about and we had to pick which day was gonna be the one. You know, everything you're seeing in that scene is what happened on that day in that moment. And as you said, when you go back and look at it, it's really clear. There's no ambiguity around it, but I think the places where there are editing is doing being done more is when you look at like the beginning of episode four where you're seeing a montage of a lot of different visuals from different places to set a tone like that. Those are places where we're taking editorial liberties and actually making something a little bit more artistic and poetic to create a feeling. But in these like pillar moments of the show where, because deciding if he's gonna stay or not and the community is turning on you and as you're seeing emotional processes play out, we're not manipulating that material. What you're seeing is what happened. I would also say that I think something that we got check on in the edit ourselves is, does this, we can't comment, we're not like arbiters of what ultimate truth is, right? I'm just a person who is going through an experience and trying to relay that experience. And something that we ask ourselves as we go through the editing processes, does this feel true to what we saw? Does this feel true to our experience that day in that room or over the course of three years? And when you talk about building a story, let's say, we really, I think we both stand behind the fact that this to us feels like a portrayal of what we experienced and a number of those conversations and interactions that happened, they were repeated many times over the three years, you know, from the community, like all of these things that you saw happen. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird. Something I often think about because I've had plenty of guests on where we talk about like misinformation and stuff like that, but there are certain points where I feel like we don't give the audience enough credit, right? Like you were talking about the beginning of episode four where there's like a montage, like build a feeling. I'm like, no rational person would think that this is all like one day and just multiple outfit changes. Like, no, I understand this is edited, you know what I mean? So, there's certain points while I'm here to talk, I'm like, I don't think anybody saw it that way, aside from you, but, you know, with just a little bit more of your time, going back to that day like that, I don't even know how to describe it because it's not an intervention, right? But I'm always wondering like, what the hell was going through all of your head? So, people who haven't watched yet, please go watch this series, but I'm sitting there and I remember the old days of addiction treatment, right, they used to shame the person. They would get the person in like, hey, piece of garbage, you're ruining your family, you're destroying, you know, and they would just like shame them and then they're like, oh, well, research shows that doesn't work too well, but this was like that, turned up to 12 and different, they bring her in and everybody goes around, it was like gaslighting, right? They're putting words in his mouth, like saying like, you hate Teal, you think she's in control, and Teal's saying this too, she's saying what you feel about me. So, as the creators, as the people sitting in that room, what was going on in your minds, were you like, like, was that, I don't know, was that the weirdest thing you've been a part of? I know you've both done quite a few documentaries. Like, I was like, what's going on in these people's minds? Yeah, it was painful. It was really painful to watch that. And I think what's so disheartening about it, you know, you experience it once in the show, but we experienced it many times in the film. Oh, wow. That was like a normal practice thing. It was a normal practice. We saw that happen many, many times. We also experienced that ourselves. And so when we were filming that, I didn't totally understand what that felt like. Later on, it was, I wanna say like six, seven months later, I got my own experience of that. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that they brought you in and they circled around you? And wait a second, no. Okay, dive into that just a little bit more. I mean, this was one of those instances where, oh, I don't remember what we were talking about. Something about filming and they were upset with me about something. And I remember me and Bits were heading over there and Bits wasn't feeling good that day. She was feeling sick. So she stayed back and I went over there, I think eight or nine p.m. And it turned into that where, you know, it was the whole community and everyone was in a circle around me and it started out as a logical conversation where, you know, Teal had an issue and she brought it up with logic and then very quickly it turned into this thing where everyone else was felt like they were sort of parroting what she was saying. Yeah. And it went on until about two a.m. And I quickly realized like this isn't a conversation. And I fell into a similar role that you see in hers. You just kind of get quiet. And there's no, like if you disagree, you're wrong. If you agree, there's no where to move. I cannot, I cannot, I can't imagine, right? Like, you know, if you, if you like upped your therapy by 10 after this whole thing was filmed, I would have been surprised. Like I'm looking at that. I'm like, I would lose it. And like, I feel like I would just have to like walk on and say, sorry, it just bolt. Like, what do you do? Right? But, yeah, like, what was, what was that? We had a license. I mean, we had a license psychotherapist attached swap to the, to the project. Really? Yeah. At the advent just for this and really having worked, I think we've both worked on content that is, you know, deeply psychologically, you know, engaging and also in situations where you feel like you might need an outlet or a perspective. And we engaged like a license psychotherapist for that reason to, to be, some we could have a conversation with, you know, through that time as individuals or together as team or whatever it is. But I actually don't think I was, it's hard to say because again, it did happen a number of times. I don't think I was in the room for the time that the one that is in the show when that was filmed. But I think part of the challenge is like, again, even in that situation, we're not there to like intervene and give opinions on anything that's happening. We're really there to just experience these sponges for what we're seeing. And I think that it is painful. I think it's a painful thing to go through because we really don't see it as our place. It's certainly not in that scenario to have any opinion at all and you process it later. Often. Yeah. And you know, coming to the end here, it makes me want to get you both back on here because I'm hearing these little tidbits. I'm like, wait a second. But no, that's really cool that you had a licensed person there too. And you know, you can say like, hey, is this normal? You know, what is this about? To clarify, they weren't in the, they weren't filming. Sorry, I have a siren. They weren't filming with us. They were just available. They were available. They were available to the team and honestly it was the most grounding thing. Like I think it was crucial for our mental health. And we also, the edit team too, you know, these editors are going through hundreds of hours of footage and all of the kind of pain, sweat and tears and, you know, side effects of it are going on to them as well. So they had access to this psychotherapist as well and worked with them. Yeah. Like because, you know, I was telling my girlfriend like, you know, as much as I love the series, like Teal's responses were just as entertaining because it was just so strange. And like, I think that scene that we're talking about, that's one where it's like, there's no editing tricks. Like you could bring in like the Marvel Cinematic Universe and nothing would have changed that scene. Like that's what was happening. And looking at that, it's like, this is not, this doesn't seem right. And people kind of look at it like it is, you know what I mean? So that's what really makes me interested about like just how groups form and this kind of like cult like thing that can happen. But, you know. Not to interrupt you Chris, but I'll also say, you know, that seeing the group think and seeing followers kind of agree with what she's saying is what you're seeing publicly. But I also want to say that there are a lot of conversations happening and a lot of people who've reached out to us who were a part of this group or have been following Teal or who are survivors who have gotten out and who are talking about it and who are saying like, you know, this has changed my perspective. And I'm thinking about agency and healing in a very different way and thank you for showing me what was going on because this impacts me. So I think, you know, on the chat forums, you see one thing I think in reality there's a much more holistic conversation taking place. Okay, yeah, that's definitely good. Part of our interest, by the way, in general, like this, we always say like we have these conversations and everyone being able to consider how they're behaving in their own lives and like where they see healing and helping. Like this is really something that we were interested in in starting a conversation about and this series is not intended to answer those questions. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I forgot which book I was reading but, you know, when talking about like why people watch these kinds of docu-series or even like true crime and some people get conquered because it teaches us how to avoid these situations. So even with her die-hard fans coming out for you, the whole time I was watching and I'm like, I really hope people are seeing this and saying like, whoa, like, you know, because sometimes that is like this kind of silent majority because a lot of people are afraid to speak out because you leave a comment on there, you'll get just thrashed. But last question for you both because I can't let you leave without asking. I felt, I felt that it ended very abruptly. I was like, there's no way that was only four episodes. There's no way, right? Like it did have some like kind of closure, right? Like a little bit, it kind of, like there was a storyline that ended, but I'm like, I need more. So maybe it was just my meeting of more but did four episodes feel short for you if you had your wish, would you get like a 10 episode contract? Because you clearly have way more footage, right? Like why only four episodes? What would you have done if you had more? I think for us, you know, we felt like four is what this story deserved. You know, going back to the constraints we set out at the beginning where it's like, we're trying to add something new to the conversation. We're trying to show what's unfolding over this period of time. We're trying to raise the questions because we don't necessarily feel like we're the people to be answering them. We're really raising the questions. And when the series ends is when it's like the conversation should begin. And if people want to dig into this backstory, if they want to dig into the repressed memories, if they want to dig into the suicide, there's a lot of content out there that explores that really well. So I think it's a kicking off point, if anything. And then, you know, on top of that, you don't need a fifth. He'll made it with a reaction video. That's it. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that's about an hour of itself. But no, that makes sense too. Because there is a lot else out there and it is a great way to like get people to do additional research and look into it. So last question just for you both. We'll start with you, Bitz. What are you working on next? You mentioned one other project you both did, but like what's next? What are you diving into? And yeah, where can we find both of you and what you're working on? Chris, we are taking it. Well, I for one, I'm taking a minute. This has been a really intense process, I'll honestly. And so I'm thinking right now about what my next step is. And I think to be totally honest, I think I'm just gonna take a moment to really consider that because when you do a project like this or any of the projects that we do, it's a full heart, body, mind, commitment that you're making. And it's like a relationship. You have relationships to the project. It's like a lot, certainly I feel like I've probably been more committed to those relationships at times than other relationships in my life. And yeah, so that's not a great answer because I don't have anything spicy to share with you. I'm not going to embed in the mood. Yeah, deep inside some other relationships. But I wanted to add one more thing to what we were talking about earlier, which is aside from, I think, the sign of majority you were talking about, Chris, of maybe people who have followed Teal in the past or who currently are, something that I've also found is people who are not associated with Teal at all, who are part of other, who have been a part of other groups or maybe feel like they're in a certain kind of relationship at home with one person. I've been reached out to people in that position or who come out of, I mean, whether it's next year I'm going to sign Teal or it's something totally different or it's a relationship at home. And something that I'm realizing is often, it's easier to see it and take in new information and reconsider things about yourself and your position when it's outside of you and it's not something you're associated with. And that's been something that I think I didn't, I don't even know that I thought about it as much but have been really pleased to hear from people who are in scenarios that are not related to this topic and feel like this resonates with their experience and is giving them permission to ask questions with their own situation. And that's, I think that's all we can hope for in what we're doing. Absolutely. So John, what's you up to? Taking a break, are you working on something? I'm taking a break. I'm just going to let this all marinate and sink in and try to process it. It feels irresponsible to jump on to something new so soon and I think there's more time that needs to be taken. Yeah, that's what I was hoping for more, but I did it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, we'll keep making things, whether it'll be movies or something else, I don't know. Yeah, so last thing, because people I'm sure want to follow just for when you both get back and you get that creative bug again, I had a difficult time finding you both. Is there anywhere that's the best place for people to just keep up with you and new upcoming projects, social media, your websites, you've got a newsletter, bat signal, what is? Yeah, we both have Instagram. No, no, no, no, no. Sorry, no, I have, okay. So we have a company that has an Instagram that is at Casby Films. So if you want to follow the project and future projects, follow at Casby Films. My website is bitsola.com. I'm still trying to figure out social media. I have like 200 followers on Instagram, which I'm very proud of and I just recently have started. I've posted five times. So I would not recommend anyone to follow me on Instagram, honestly, if they know what's good for them. But yeah, my website is bitsola.com or maybe I'll learn Morse code and start going that way. I'll just regress. Beautiful. So bits, you have an open invitation. If you have any social media coaching, you got my email. Thank you. True job at any time. But bits and junk, thanks so much for coming on, clearing some stuff up, the work that you do. And yeah, maybe years down the line, we'll get you back on here and do this again. Thank you, Chris. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.