 Marsha Martin, City Council. Susie Valgo-Fairing, Mayor of Brooktown. Chiquita Yaquo, City Council. John Heck, Mayor. John Floyd, City Council. Anne Rodriguez, City Council. I held the movie, City Manager. E.J. May, City Attorney. Diane Chris, City Council. Don Quintana, City Clerk. No, he doesn't have to. He doesn't have to. He's definitely in the roll call. So let's also remember that this is a discussion among the councillors and not to pull staff into the conversation because if you need to one-on-one with them, later they're available. So much to start with you. Much is the truth. Okay. Well, I only have two to really discuss because I was out of state. You know, I skipped the board meeting. It's okay because I was doing family stuff. But the two the most active boards that I have are the Water Board and the Senior Advisory Board. And they both have one big topic that took up most of the discussion of the last thing. And they both are policy matters. So Senior Advisory Board, there's really a lot less discussion in terms of council policy, although one of the issues with it is that this initiative by the Senior Citizens Advisory Board is coming after budget time. And, you know, I guess it's, you know, they need to be ready to start this in April for 2025. But they have succeeded in recruiting new people. You know, we'll confirm them tonight. So I guess, I don't think it's possible when you have them get confirmed. But anyway, a much more, people joining will be much more diverse and connected to different communities than has happened in the past because pretty much it was like, you know, mostly old white women like me and not a lot of other people. But this year we have an African-American man joining us who is very active as a volunteer in the community as well. And a bilingual Hispanic woman. And I said, they're not confirmed yet but we're really excited. And the big deal, the big initiative that the board wants to have is how do we engage the rest of the community because really the Senior Advisory Board you know, it's spent a lot of time looking at who the users are and the users of the Senior Center don't represent the whole community. They represent maybe half the community and maybe not the half of the community that could benefit the most from what the Senior Center does. So one of the big ideas, and this is the after discussion thing, one of the big ideas is that almost everyone said, and that's why I was asking those questions on the weekend, that if there could be open times at the Senior Center like Saturday morning or a couple evenings a week that different parts of the community could use, make more use of the Senior Center. Make more use of the building. You know, it's a really wonderful, nice inviting building and it's highly wasted only being open you know, 42 hours a week or how much it's open. So the staff and the Senior Advisory Board are really very much interested in trying to find ways to do that and we understand that it's a long-budget planning thing but it would be great if in 2025 we had not only more universal programming for the Senior Center but more accessible hours for the Senior Center. So that's the one. The other thing, this was just Monday yesterday, was that Ken Houston actually called me in advance so that I could be prepared to talk to the Board and the staff about this because they know from numbers that are coming in that we are going to need to raise the fee in lieu for water rights for future annexations. And the staff and pretty much kind of the Board were sort of thinking, well we know what these new expenses are and our work is done, you know. And so we had kind of a big discussion about all of the policy factors that really influence where we really do set that. Obviously we don't want the fee in lieu to be at a loss except possibly to subsidize affordable housing but for commercial builders we don't want it to be a loss but there's also all kinds of other factors like how much we want to bring builders in and what adjacent communities are charging and how many more parcels there are to be annexed and how big of a water rights deficit we have and how big a pool of annexed land that hasn't paid their fee because they haven't broken ground or achieved a plaque. So there's a really big chunk of data analysis that has to be done and yes, the council will make the policy decisions about where we set that but we need to have a full set of quantitative data presented to us in order to make that decision informed because those of you who have been here long enough at this point it might just be me and Joan. Could be. But you know, the last time we had a big step in the cost of water to be annexed oh and Erin, you were there, sorry. But Erin definitely would remember but the public said, you guys are leaving all kinds of money on the table so they held us to account and we had not enough data and we had to send the decision back to the staff in order to get the rest of the data so the idea was next year let's get it right first time so we can have a good discussion. So those are the two news that I have and on this one again this might be a good time to discuss how we as a new council feel about that policy. Yeah, but not tonight. No, not tonight for long. Yeah, because we need to take the and the true policy discussion of course needs to be public. But thank you, that was good. So for me the two big ones that I want to report back are the library advisory board and the museum advisory board. So the museum we met we're not meeting this month but last month so I had to pull up my notes from last time and really it was just looking updating the advisory board on how much they had raised so as of November 6 it was 6.5 million that was raised for the capital campaign so that was prior to the Colorado Gibbs so we'll get updated numbers the next time we meet so that was, that's exciting news but one of the things in piggybacking off of what Marcia had said so we had to cancel I think it was our October meeting for lack of quorum and we have one women's health she ended up having to resign from the board because of health concerns and just kind of trying to the library or museum? Museum advisory board so that was referring to the capital campaign which is the extension of the museum advisory board from the museum just clarifying yeah no worries and so that had been kind of getting people to show up as well as we haven't built seats so if one person's gone we can't meet for lack of quorum and so really how can we get people more engaged in this applying for the museum different boards who say this before and so we were kind of mulling around I made the suggestion the library board we do hybrid we have one member who has daycare issues so we've made accommodations to have a hybrid and that seems to be working we haven't had to cancel meetings and people were able to participate last night I was able to participate online but still all so that was helpful the consensus of the board the museum board which did not do that to keep it all in person so we're kind of mulling around how can we get the word out there for people to apply and be engaged in this work and the importance of these advisory boards so that was a big discussion for that the library board we met yesterday and again they gave us that resolution really holding the city council and the city to make that commitment we've said that we value the library so where's the money to kind of support that and it was very over and over again the members are very disappointed with the outcome of the election and you know people don't realize the importance of the library and the fact that our programs are free you know and so one of the discussions we had was okay then charting for some of these programs and you know that board was kind of split on that because we really want to have this be an inclusive equitable system for our residents but these things cost money and then to throw it on the front of the library where their whole purpose was to provide extra programming not the essentials and so it was we had some hard discussions last night and you know it was really you know a lot of them came on me and it was like well you know where's you know you say you are committed to the library city council says they are committed to the library where's the money to show that and how are we going to make up the deficit because of you know and wait for all those free market people to start cutting jacks and start building programs library but sorry so you know we kind of they're going to be coming to council more often they're going to be making their voices heard and our biggest concern is that we lose quality people we have Lilian who does the bilingual a lot of the youth programming and I just she's a one-man powerhouse and she's going out there to all these different events and running these programs at the parks and I've been involved in education monthly and I've been involved with Pi and I've been involved with them in the past for several years and their day care part you know they provide dinner for families and the kids that came it was a day care it was just baby city she is really up to provide quality program so we have really quality staff but they are stretched really thin and so that was that's the concern of the library advisory board is how are we going to ensure that we keep these staff members who are high quality and am I not stretching them too thin but still keep these quality programs available for public so that was you know that was kind of the gist I mean we can go into more discussion later alright so we were I was in Atlanta for LDDA so I missed that one and the next one is tomorrow actually usually the fourth so anyway transportation and I thought we were starting our new boards next year but I ended up going to Broomfield 730 in the morning for that NADA N-A-T-A what is it Northern Area Transportation yes so I showed up to that and yeah it was very informative although half of it I didn't know what they were talking about I mean it's transportation but you know some of the things that they had already discussed prior basically just continuing on they definitely going to continue the zero fair for youth and they were talking about legislative those who are going to change legislation and about the employees like the bus drivers and everything who are getting assaulted and when they press charges nothing happens to the those who suppose they don't get prosecuted and so that's an issue with their staffing because people really do not want to be want to work because they're scared of people assaulting them on the bus so assaulting their operator so that's a huge huge issue right now which is of course employee staffing and the next meeting is next month on the 25th so since I went to that and that's just a little bit of what I was like wow I didn't know that check on their RTD website, they have like six different everything is in six different languages so I thought that was pretty cool so yes I'll switch on over to our transportation basically and Diane if anything I miss you were there so you can definitely update or say she can even forget that so we talked about the year in report the 2024 work plan of course it could be adjusted and modified but that's also that's on the website and that's a huge report so I don't need to go over that they talked about we talked about the main street safety improvements and the Coffman street multi-modal improvement project everything is up today I mean everything is on the move more grant I believe we got another grant from Fiel had gotten some more money that's Fiel I tell you let's go get her basically they just provided all the updates for the multi-modal capital projects housing and human services my last day was Thursday right after sister cities because I would go to sister cities and hop on over to and human services what we talked about in there was over a million dollars were requested for funding and applications and every year has increased and what we talked about possibly that maybe they we have our different buckets of what up priorities maybe we need to narrow down the priorities not being so broad because there are other nonprofits who are already doing some of that work that provide those services and it worked the time for nonprofits to only although they gave people a little bit of money here and there so if you give $1,000 here $2,000 there but yet they're asking for $25,000 was that worth their time for you know especially the grassroots organizations was it really worth their time to do that application and that $1,000 because that person wage costs more than that for them to sit there and do those applications and the reporting that comes along with that so basically that's what they were talking about when I came in the latter part of it sister cities they still need maybe a few more students to go they left it open for a few more students for Rappahoe, Guzman and I think we're full for Japan I myself will be a Shappahoe for Japan next year I'm so excited they asked me that I want to go as a government official because they get a lot of perks and I said well if we all can't get perks they know I don't want to because I want to experience with the students experience so if it's a great experience that they get all the perks that I get then that's cool but I don't want to be separated from the kids I want to learn that's the whole point of me going as a Shappahoe so we don't know the exact dates of that but we do know it's supposed to be in July we supposed to know at the end of this month because their school is year round and so it's when they can they're going to check and see when it would be a good time for us to be there for their students in Japan so yeah so RCAB and for they had a discussion in regards to the changing the online aspect of that so they want to do it where they rotate from different places to places so for you Diane just so you kind of know it's a multi kind of resource consortium that buys your board so that's RCAB and it's just about things like EcoCycle and other elements like our A1 compost and all of that so it's fairly light then the consortium cities that the big issue right now we were we went to the actual emergency facility where when they have something like the Marshall Fire or something like this they have a room like three times the size of this room here it's got a 6 to 7 or more you know television is larger than this one here they've got it's just a total command center they have the ability to bug out of there if it were like a you know a fire like the Marshall Fire to come in into that location but when they were looking at things for the flood and other aspects they you know they went through the whole process of that and they followed a fish bone but they showed how any incident has this sort of fish bone effect first you do this then you do this then you do this and it used to be that they wanted us as public officials to be all trained in this and then realize we just need to be aware of it because we weren't going to be the experts behind the screens or anything like that we might help in some way and I know many of you when the Marshall Fire hit did certain things to help support these other communities and stuff like that but it probably wasn't from a logistic sort of command control sort of situation so that's that's where they were and then they ended the meeting again with the minimum wage discussion I sent an email on to Mark Lokeman who is pushing this right now to ask her has she had conversations with either one of the school boards or their superintendents about this issue because it would have an impact on on them in the sense of raising minimum wage jobs like some of their fair pros and some of their janitorial staff to receive a response back so that's where that board is pretty much I'm going to interrupt to Mark if she's had some personal issues it has not been I think Mark might be handling some of this so I can reach out to him and see what has happened because you kind of got to include all these stakeholders in this if you're going to start proceeding this way they want to go down this I still believe that it's probably a legislative issue that really probably should be handled broadly but because it has some elements of problems in the sense that if Longmont and Lewisville, Lafayette and all the surrounding areas come in as a unit to go with this what we might see is a bunch of people having shortages in places like Fort Leipten and other parts just as you cross I-25 people wanting to come here because they clearly get a better wage for doing the same jobs they do just on the opposite side of I-25 so that's that probably should be you know push more at the legislative level because that's kind of the same issue when dealing with some of the gun issues you know that if you can't get other communities to to get along with change their policies people will just go there to get their weapon of choice so it's that sort of situation too you're creating a disparity and so obviously people want to want to come where they are going to get paid even if they have to drive a little bit there's probably a cost savings in some of that so that's basically they still don't know outside of us having holding a vote on this I don't know where to really go forward with them on that but I just feel like it still hasn't quite been enough information seems like we almost need maybe some clarification in regards to what that actually looks like are they going to want it we really want to have 16 year olds at that but I mean there's going to be some question about on the job training and that sort of thing so it's a discussion to be held so historic preservation commission I think we've all seen kind of the culmination of their work over the last year just last week I believe we voted on initially the recommendations that they made for the code changes as far as demolition and those kinds of things tonight we have the appeal again so I think we've read about that in our packets and then also I think everybody has received you know council member Chris probably hasn't received the email but the one we got from commissioner Jacoby that outlined what he thought the commission's decision was based on the overlay district which I know we'll be having a conversation about that based on the motion of the mayor and that's really taken up the vast majority of the year for that particular commission along my public media you know they've gotten to the point now where they've added so much program so many programs to try to get as much participation and memberships and things like that that they've gotten to the point now where they're starting to reevaluate and see maybe if some of the programs need to be lead you know for capacity reasons maybe there's not the uptake of participation that we're anticipating but I think that was kind of the right direction was open up the cornucopia possibilities and then see what really is the popular stuff and then you know pair back the stuff that didn't necessarily become as popular and then with planning and zoning commission I think they after the bond farm sessions I think they got a little bit of a break I mean they had meetings they were not as contentious I know that one was the Boston road just by the sugar factory that was one that they already came to us and then they wished upon farewell to commissioner Josh Goldberg who had been there 10 years he had his 2-5 year term and he was terminated so what do you have for us Diane? well I dropped in with visit Montmont my first meeting with tomorrow so I'm with you on that it's not as early in the morning and I learned some things about the airport during our interview process that I think visit Montmont will be interested to hear because there's some reasons to come here just because of that you're more to and that also an interview is related a bit to the transportation board which I was publicly invited to be heard there I started talking about having bicycle stations around town mentioned that they might like to have that so and then the thing with the master plan for transportation a lot of it with RTD is going to go more regional try to focus on microtransit just my conversations with the city and realize that we may be getting close to microtransit so yeah so there's a lot of the budget about that transportation dollars to make sure we support that a lot of excitement microtransit so before I get mic'd on if you want to tell the rest of council what you said about the historic love of that presentation or the I will let the planning staff introduce what I believe that I'm going to request post-pulsion we were then notified today late afternoon late afternoon that the applicant is delayed delayed can't be here so my term I had four things that I could bring up but I think I'm going to start with only two and four but that's fine with me remember my password the first one is the ethics code I did have a meeting with Eugene which I cancelled because the campaign I needed to take something off my plate during the campaign so that however during that time after the campaign is over and today I did meet with Marika and Ian from IT discussed and they gave me a draft of what a website for complaints would look like so that we had a place to direct people to go if they had a complaint about a council person or a board member a commission member and I will have that draft ready for in January and Susie has agreed to help me with that I will throw the draft to her to wordsmith to look at to make sure that it all makes sense as far as we know and then it goes to legal and then it comes back to council to tear apart or look at see if you want to work with it or change it or whatever the one thing that IT needs before we can actually go on that website is we need to know who the committee would be and Harold and I have talked about hearing officers for who is going to look at the complaints, who did they go to et cetera so that's just an idea that we will discuss but that is what I will present because I would rather in previous pre-sessions Diane it was agreed that I could just do it and I asked if anybody wanted to help they said no go for it so I'm just pulling from Fort Collins code of ethics the attorney there gave me permission to use their language and from Denver's code of ethics and a little bit from Colorado Springs so it's kind of a hodgepodge but it hits the points that that makes sense but when it comes back then we can say that's ridiculous or no we don't want to do that or whatever so counsel's input is really important because it is our code of ethics so that's the update on that the other thing that I wanted to talk about I was going to update on PRPA because I think it's extremely important that we all understand what's going on there but I'm going to leave that at the end of the time I want to first of all go straight to RTD and we all have read or heard that from Inch Passage Rail got the $500,000 grant for their corridor ID plan which is huge we were waiting and waiting for that we're supposed to hear about it again October and then in November but finally in December they awarded the grants and Inch Passage Rail got one of them and the reason that's important is that with that $500,000 grant it is FRA telling us that we have a good plan they like it and that they will give us all the help we need to make it work so I'm really excited about that but that means we're going to work our tails off because the governor wants the vote for the FRPR on the November 2024 ballot so we're working on several things on marketing on ballot language we chose the alignment from Fort Collins to Prebleau or Prebleau to Fort Collins whatever you want there's a lot of discussion about that and the reason that was chosen was because we are going to use existing rail the cost of building another rail or making it a double line is very very expensive so getting into it right away and doing the backbone is what we're concentrating on that is going to happen whether we like it or not I think it's a great thing that's going to happen for the front range however I have told at every single front range passenger rail district meeting that I am not going to sell to our residents the idea that we're going to be in two recaps for two rail districts I had heard at our retreat that RTD was going to be a player but then on Monday I had a conversation with the executive director of FRPR and they are not so RTD is doing their own thing front range FRPR is doing their own thing totally separate districts to that end my frustration is what everybody has been frustrated about RTD refuses to move the date of the Northwest Rail corridor from 2050 which puts that 46 years since our vote and over $100,000 $100,000,000 $100,000,000 the reason they're putting it 2050 is because they have bonds that are not going to come due until 2050 they don't have any more bonding authority until they pay that off but the fast tracks is solvent which means I don't know exactly what that means if we owe dollars for bonds it means that our dollars are needed to pay off those bonds so that is unacceptable to me completely that we are going to be caught in two different rail districts there's no path forward with Northwest corridor RTD has made no plans for construction they haven't purchased any cheap steel to put it in a warehouse so when we have money we can start building so to that end I want your input shall we tonight's meeting direct our staff to hold an executive session to discuss an exit strategy for RTD's fast tracks part of the district the RTD district I would support that if there is any possible exit strategy and I would like a discussion about how the governor expects the RTD the unserved segments of RTD to vote for another rail district and I don't give any population distribution I don't think it can pass without us so what we need to do is how much the governor and the legislature can intervene they are working on that right now faith winters the land use bill that the governor put out last year it wasn't a bill concept plan where it was he broke it up into three parts transportation which faith winters has the land use itself and then the ADUs the transit oriented development part so he's got three different sections now which I think he's going to run part of his plan I think and at the mayors and commissioners meeting Kyle and I forget his last name but he is the one who replaced Tracy Burnett in the legislature he came and talked to us and basically said he's working with faith winters and they don't know what they're going to do he said give me your input and faith winters emailed me and said give me everything absolutely everything that you think you can do for transportation so Phil and I just filled an email full of stuff so they're struggling everybody's struggling but RTD is not going to be part of FRP. and to your point Marsha that is the point of the executive session to discuss should we do this can we do this I would not need to support it but it's an executive session well I'd be in support of it but it's an executive session on the subject which was very promising so well and the executive but in that executive session in 2021 the if memory serves me right we basically said let's wait and see what happens and that is because FRPR was just beginning and at that point and I'll bring our breakfast out to follow notes at the very beginning the discussion was that we would have a 3P it would be a 3-part partnership with C.FRPR and RTD and that's why I said let's wait and see I just remember the legal aspect of not about being able to remove ourselves from the ballot issue that was voted on originally being tenuous at best we never gave direction to staff to litigate I guess I remember the conversation differently we never came out of that executive session and said to give direction to litigate or not to litigate I remember the conversation differently in the sense that in the red light, green light or red light, yellow light green light concept we were nowhere close to a green light from a litigation point that was my recollection of that conversation so I guess I want to know if I should make this a motion tonight I would support it given that two things have changed I remember that executive session as being well we as a municipality or even as whatever district 11 or 13 or whatever in the RTD even as that entity we have no power to exit it didn't have standing we had no standing I'd like to remind council those conversations of presidential oh okay it was in the executive session I think we decided there was nothing we could do at that point but we would need the support of the legislature can we talk about this in an executive session that's the whole point this discussion should be happening here so I'll support it I'll support it on-site okay the other thing that I wanted to talk to you about is PRPH is just an update what? PRPA we had gotten and I don't know if all council got these but the board got hundreds of letters from groups like Sierra Club 360.org etc that are not happy that for reliability on PRPA for our dark calm days that we are going to have arrow derivative gas turbines they don't want any gas at all and they said we need instead of putting out an RFP just for technology just for an arrow derivative turbine we need to have all source RFPs which means that we would put out a request for proposal or bids information from all sources of storage and natural resources that could give us the reliability we need on dark calm days so this was a question, this was a good discussion that we had on PRPA and tell you the truth the board members learned a lot information came that we had never had before and between 2020 and 2023 PRPA had actually put out four all source RFPs with 71 responses so they had information and responses on those RFPs from all kinds of manufacturers that were doing storage that were doing solar that were doing wind that were doing hydroelectric and our staff went to some of these manufacturers to some of these companies and actually looked at what they were producing and out of that there's one that we're still keeping an eye on and that is the one in California that is developing 100 hour storage units but they're nowhere near what they should be for us to use so in order for us not to have blackout days for us to be able to be in our management like Weiss and the Southwest Energy pool we have to be able to have the energy that we can sell and buy other energy utility companies within that pool so out of those RFPs those all source RFPs tame the aero derivative gas turbines so we had a member we signed an agreement to give permission to PRPA to start the permitting process which is taking a very long time the other thing that I learned is that we are a very small utility so when we need to purchase something it is now supply and demand and the manufacturers have all the power because the demand is worldwide we're very small so if we need turbines whatever it is we want to purchase we're coming up against Excel who is purchasing a lot of them or like Arizona Public Service company which they're buying tons of it they don't want we're on the bottom of the list because we're small we're only four cities so that is what is holding up some of our moving forward our momentum to move forward so I think that the public needs to understand some of this when if you hear that we're not moving fast enough that we're not doing our job I totally have faith in what PRPA is doing and we're having more in-depth conversations on the board and not just just questioning staff in a deeper, more meaningful way for us so that's it those are my thoughts. I'd like to add something about PRPA having talked to the local activist community and 350.org and the Sierra Club going bonkers over new gas plants but if you talk to NREL or if you talk to you know several regulatory agencies or anybody who does not have an ideological thing behind them one way or the other NREL is pretty much gung-ho behind renewable energy but PRPA is right and 350.org etc are asking for the money so I personally with the energy industry experience I have no quarrel with what PRPA is doing at the moment I think they're doing the right thing and the no-new gas ask is just not attainable with present-day technology, not by 2030 No, it isn't there I thought because what's going to happen I can tell you that in fact the way they had that set up that if you were on the PRPA board you didn't get those letters because I didn't get them as a council member but that's the next thing is that they'll send them to the whole council and that's why I wanted council to understand what we're doing and where we're going so that you can support the city and support PRPA's path the other thing I forgot to say is that Jenny who, Jenny is the mayor of Fort Collins she went to COP 28 Dubai she went to Dubai for the COP 28 conference and came back and reported to us and said that there were people in renewable energy from all over the world and no one has an answer that we're all struggling with the exact same thing however at COP 28 there were also hundreds of oil and gas people so they were doing their own thing as well but I was glad to hear that because it made me feel that we've had people coming to PRPA saying that Austin, Texas is doing this, they're 100% renewable and then Raj pulled up their home platform of what they're using and they're using coal and gas as well as some renewable and they are, their target is 2035 so we are right in there and working as hard as we can but I think our board has learned that we need to ask better questions and more questions so can we have a good presentation here they did I was very impressed with them the board did a good job and the last the last board meeting I felt that the board did a much better job of standing up for its several communities than I've ever seen happen before well I think what happens and what happens on council too is we get a presentation but because we've discussed it in first ordinance, second ordinance or it comes before we have the first ordinance we understand it better and sometimes don't ask questions for the residents to understand because we've read it we've seen it, we've heard about it and sometimes we go to staff and get more information so they give a presentation and we're all just sitting there like okay so it's not really true yet no it's not true it's the same thing it's the exact same thing okay does anybody want to discuss anything else well I did just Monday before the election I went to Hope and Hope is struggling they're struggling in two counts it seems like they the way they describe it they might be running a deficit and they're trying to figure out how to cover that and with the big discussion about unhoused and homeless folks in our community you know and the fact that they are moving from two different churches the setup and the teardown every night and every morning it's really starting to grade on them and it would be nice if we could try to find some location that they could be permanent in I think that would keep some of their costs down and I think that's something that I know that we need to maybe either lobby our legislators and stop giving people tax credits for holding their properties out of the market yeah the market is a little ridiculous I mean that should not be a tax credit that should be like why are you not doing this we've built this I mean I see my understanding jumping to like Dr. Cog that sort of thing where we have these ideas of where we should put certain businesses and industries and it seems like we have corporate buildings that should be getting filled and yeah I drag up by 25 and see those exact type of buildings being built new and so if those buildings are not going to be utilized we need to figure out some way of putting them into some sort of some sort of aspect and either addressing our issue around affordable housing and attainable housing or helping the homeless unhoused and helping organizations like HOPE that are trying to find at least a permanent building so that's an issue right there that I think needs to be put on the front burner I'd like to have HOPE if we could come to a council meeting and reiterate what their real needs are because it's a struggle because they do such a good job in the community with some of the more difficult parts of that community population that we need to figure out what we can do to make that happen and we probably need to hold some of these commercial buildings owners accountable for leaving these things for us to do the other thing is this I'm concerned about the issue of a year ago before I was on council just before I was on council a young man got shot at Hovering and that attractive nuisance of that big parking lot is something that if they're not going to do something with it that that's on now us as a community to police and to make sure that it's safe from impromptu meetups for raising and other stuff like that that's a problem and if they're not going to put something there that deters that some sort of commercial building or some sort of activity down there deters that then that's putting it back on our that it's not all of a sudden we're using resources and I feel like that's something we should maybe discuss about you know how do we claw some of that resources back if they're not going to do something serious about it because that's not okay we're struggling here to try to make sure other issues of safety are not to have to face something that should have been managed literally years ago can I jump in? yes so that's one of the tenements of decisions is to re-purpose those parking lots and the quick facilities there that will be so we don't have to build more parking lots so we're not so we're utilizing the majority of the transportation has committed to not expanding the roads into re-producing parking lots and perhaps using city services there that's beginning to attract other businesses that maybe might be tempted to build or that those initiatives those task force will help all directions I hope that would be a good discussion to have especially when we but we have to also look at the aspect that we don't own those parking lots and I remember right Bobby has first pre-use on that parking lot that's a crazy mess property location that's partially why it's so difficult to do anything because there are on one parcel there's multiple others that's actually why that Walmart building is torn down because they always couldn't create and then Bobby and Bobby actually has well they have rights on what's developed based on the contracts that were signed between them there is somebody that I think is working through now developing something there but we've spent time with them trying to figure out the logistics of the property blocks and that is just a crazy location our services to them for safety and the community is not free and they need to do something with it well under the benefit of more but attracted to this is to finding out what would be the access to that area too is the squirting knot I mean if you drive you can't ever get out especially when you go to that bakery no I don't think I'll ever go in and out the same way so we should probably thinking about what we want to see on the retreat because then he's going to be asking us yeah I know