 Ladies and gentlemen, friends, colleagues, welcome again to the March edition of the directors, so as directors lecture series. Today, of course, we are going to be discussing how Europe underdeveloped Africa and the Caribbean that operations debate with Zaynab Badawi, of course, and Professor Sir Hilary Beckles. We will have a discussion for about 45 minutes, followed by Q&A. So please submit your questions on the padlet. The link to the padlet is in the chat box. Today's event will be recorded and shared on so as is YouTube platform. Please use the following hashtag hashtag so as if you are engaging social media on the lecture that that is about to happen. I do want to kick off, ladies and gentlemen, friends, colleagues, to say right at the outset that today's event is in honor of Walter Rodney. Walter Rodney is perhaps so as is or one of so as is most distinguished alumni. And today he would have been 80. Had he not been so tragically assassinated in 1980. It's also in March is the 50th anniversary of his incredible book, how Europe underdeveloped Africa. And today I was speaking to a colleague either from the Center for African Studies and the School for Languages, Culture and Linguistics. And she reminded me, essentially that the first version of this book was published by a press in Tanzania. And I was quite struck by that, because often we think that the knowledge of our world is produced in the West. But some of the great ideas, ideas that Walter and many others pioneered came from activists scholars from the African continent, who were informed by the inspirational struggles of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and more broadly the developing world. But as importantly it was the institutions of those parts of the world that created where the first transmitters of these ideas to the West itself. And so it's something that we should remember, as we adopt a new strategic plan at so as where we want to bring so as an institution in a global city at the heart of the UK in London. We want to use and ensure that we enable so as to partner with universities in Africa, Asia, the Middle East and the Caribbean, so that we transform our education. We imagine our education on a transcontinental platform, where we bring global science, global ideas, and local experiences in conversation. So we can establish a more equitable partnership and institutional global, a global academy that is more equal. That's the purpose of the strategic plan. And in a sense, it seems to me, Walter Rodney would, would smile wherever he is at that strategic plan, becoming the center of so as his agenda, his university, after all. So we honor him today with this discussion. It is going to be by, and it's going to be by Zainab Badawi. And of course, Sir Hilary Beckles Zainab is one of Britain's most well known broadcasters journalists. She is a so as alumni, like Walter Rodney was, and is of course the current president of so as. Professor Sir Hilary Beckles is Vice Chancellor of the University of the West Indies. He's a distinguished university administrator, economic historian specialist in higher education and development thinking in practice. And he's an internationally reputed historian. He's been the Vice President of the International Task Force for the UNESCO Slave Route Project, a consultant for the UNESCO Cities for Peace Global Program, an advisor on the UN World Culture Report, and was member of the Secretary General of the United Nations Science Advisory Board on Sustainable Development. So I'm going to hand over to Zainab and Hilary as we're going to have a fantastic debate, and I'll probably come back right in the last couple of minutes. So thank you. I had the platform over to Zainab and Hilary himself. Thank you so much indeed, Adam, for that introduction. Hilary, hello. It's lovely to see you. I saw Hilary not that long ago in his native Barbados and I think that Hilary I must have had some of the most stimulating conversations with you that I've ever had in my life such a brilliant mind and I'm so so glad to be chairing this discussion with you about your role in how Britain underdeveloped the Caribbean and a reparation response to Europe's legacy of plunder and poverty. You're telling it as it is, you're not holding back, are you, Hilary? Anyway, Hilary, I know you wear many hats, but in particular what's relevant for our conversation today is that you are chair of a CARICOM Commission and CARICOM of course is the community of Caribbean nations. CARICOM Commission seeking justice and reparations for people of African descent. So before we start talking about your book and the arguments for reparations, let's just have some comments from you about Walter Rodney's groundbreaking prescient prophetic, you know, a book, how Europe underdeveloped Africa you say that it has since served as a manifesto a clarion call to Africans to reject the neocolonial narrative of self doubt. So just expand on that a little bit for us. Thank you so very much, Zaynab. What a tremendous honor and joy it is to be in your company once again and to thank Adam, of course, for hosting me within the SOAS family, which I'm very proud of, Long Legacy. And this transcontinental conversation based in Jamaica at the moment, reaching across the Atlantic to discuss with you issues about the global south and the world as we have it. And to reflect on the legacy and the journey of Walter Rodney, he was first class honors student in history here, here at the Mona campus of the University in Jamaica, before he took a scholarship to go across the Atlantic to SOAS where he enjoyed his research tremendously. And then, of course, he was denied admission back into Jamaica and 68 because he had started the process of teaching African history to the neighborhood to go in going beyond the perimeter of the campus into the communities and having these these nightly lectures on African history and he was declared to be a security risk and therefore was denied admission to Jamaica and went on to Tanzania where Adam indicated quite correctly that he entered a period of tremendous intellectual fertility and he wrote a great deal and while in Tanzania there he really emerged as a brilliant historian. So this moment of reflection is priceless certainly for me and I'm sure for you also. So just picking up the point I made to what do you mean by his book served as a clarion call to Africans to reject the neocolonial narrative of self doubt what made you say that. Well, this is precisely this is precisely the critical moment, having struggled for for this sovereignty this independence, having rejected the colonial structures and the colonial forms and emerge as independent African nation states as we did in the Caribbean also. The question then is what what do you do now. The notion that the development models of the future are right there within the debris of colonization and all you have to do is to, is to emulate what you were taught as as colonials. Walter was as you know that you know the sustainable development can be achieved only in the context of reattachment to indigenous forms of development and comprehension and knowledge and understanding. And therefore this insistence upon returning to the indigenous mentality to discover your own history your literature to discover your economics and to up to uproot colonialism from your academy and from your systems of learning and research. Walter said that's what has to be done and he was quite correct because colonial elites were quite prepared to go along with the paradigm of being appendices appendages and an outposts of the Western economy. He insisted upon a rupture and it had to be first of all epistemological have to be intellectual African people themselves whether in governance of academia had to detach themselves from the colonial scaffold and begin to think, traditionally as natives of continent with a tremendous the rich history. And that is what he assisted upon and that is why I think he became quite a dangerous person for those internally who were quite prepared to maintain as much of the status quo as possible within the context of this formal independence. I mean, his message essentially is one that you know Africa has institutions customs traditions beliefs practices that are worthy of respect and preservation very very important message. So let's look at your book which I have read and I think it's absolutely brilliant and I think it's going to be as iconic a book as as Walter Rodney's was because it's just packed with so many facts and figures but written is such a simple accessible evocative style so anybody on this webinar I do hardly recommend that you read it. So essentially your book says sets out how or why the former colonial power Britain in the Caribbean should be held to account for imperial plunder and slavery. And it's also a global call for reparations as part of a new development discourse, but do the two necessarily go hand in hand would it not be sufficient for us to just have recognition of the first does it have to be sanctioned with the with the reparations can you not just get the understanding the apology, the regret. Well, the critical thing is to recognize where you are. In terms of the the evolution of ideas that are shaping your society, Britain implemented an emancipation model that laid the foundation for the underdevelopment that the institutional underdevelopment of the Caribbean and we have to address. Why it is that Britain did what it did and to speak about development. The first thing is that the emancipated people all 700,000 of them were demanding compensation. When the British Parliament was debating emancipation. So the Caribbean people were saying, if you want to pay compensation to the slave owners. How about us, whose labor you have exploited for 300 years. So the emancipated started the first campaign to demand repository justice and they were told to shut up and be quiet. That your emancipation is your compensation show shut up and be quiet, but the voice of these emancipated people resonated through the Caribbean and through the British Parliament and found traction in the British Parliament I mean people like like Thomas Buxton. Eloquent speeches and the British Parliament when he was saying, listen, we are paying compensation to the criminals who have committed crimes. I am standing with the black people of the Caribbean who have a right to receive reparations and I'm standing with them. They should be compensated. So there was a movement in the Parliament. But of course, when the votes came in, it was said, you know, the black folks ought to be quiet and be still. And they want to give compensation to the enslavers that fast forward 100 years. The people of the Caribbean have revolted against British colonialism and every island of the Caribbean between 1934 and 1938 celebrating the centenary of emancipation. The Caribbean rose up in opposition to British colonialism from island to island. And of course, the British then had to use the army to crush this this movement. They crushed it very aggressively from Belize to the Jamaica Barbados Trinidad Antigua, the British Army went, went a wall. Just killing black people. Now, at that moment, so after Lewis, who had graduated out of London, returned to the Caribbean in 1939 and said, Okay, the people are demanding the end of colonization and they are demanding development. And he wrote this magnificent book and then said, Okay, you're the Caribbean people, you want development, you want economic development, you want social justice, you want it, you want independence, you want an intercolonialism. Fine. I am with you. But how are you going to fund it? And they asked the question, how are we in the Caribbean, going to fund development. He said, Well, the first, the first point of call has to be the British government. Because the British government, he said, has had 200 years of free labor from 20 million people that funded British economic development. So the first thing you need to do is to call upon the British government to return a portion of that. And if the British government will return a portion of that, it could be used to fund, it could be used to fund development in the Caribbean. He said, But don't expect it. Don't expect it. Don't expect it because they're not going to be willing to admit to that responsibility. Then the conversation started. So we need a carpet. We need a huge carpet to brush all of this stuff under. But we have not been able to find a carpet, big enough to brush this stuff under it keeps bubbling up that we need development. And there's a British debt and Britain needs to acknowledge that debt and participate in the development model to finance that debt. So it's an outstanding debt in the name of those 700,000 emancipated slaves in 1834 that the 16 million people in living in the Caribbean today or people of Caribbean nationality. They, these 16 million should get some development aid because of the 700,000 enslaved ancestors who were emancipated. It's that debt from 1834 that you're calling for. And it's not just that, Zeynep. That's part one of it. For 100 years after emancipation right into the 1930s, we've had a Caribbean community that has been calling for democracy that have been calling for economic development. And the British response 100 years after right into my own lifetime was always to respond either with aggressive militarism to shut down protest movements by force of arms, and then to offer aid and contrast to development funding. So we speak of the 19th century Caribbean, right into the middle of the 20th century, as the Caribbean people die in for democracy. Now when we say dying for democracy, we make that literary. More people in the Caribbean were massacred by the British army and the British colonial government and 100 years after emancipation that in the 100 years before emancipation. So the emancipation century was a blood bath. A few days ago we were having a seminar here on the campus about the many blood baths. Saint Vincent, you know 1856 Jamaica 1865 Barbados, you know, 1887 and you can continue all the way through each time an island said we want land reform. We want economic development we want schools we want hospitals each time the people rose up for basic development infrastructure. The British government sent in the army. So development discourse is deeply rooted. And what happened at the emancipation and into the present time so it's all connected it's not just the so called remoteness of slavery is what happened after into my own lifetime. And that's where we're being where we have islands where two to 3% of the white population owned 90% of the wealth. And that was a model that the British army enforced upon the Caribbean, despite indigenous efforts to promote development through reform, land reform, social infrastructure. There was diversification access to education, all of these development infrastructures that Caribbean people call upon the British government. They were all based upon the notion of this ongoing debt you owe a debt so that when, when the independence generation came, and by the 1960s it was clear that Britain could not hold on to Caribbean colonialism. Britain in the 1960s, one after the other, and all of those conversations for development were speaking about the debt that is owed. How are we going to fund independence. There's a debt that has been owed and Britain's position was we owe you nothing. We are going to we're going to exit colonialism on the cheap. We owe you nothing you are on your own. So you, you, as I said as chair of the Commission for reparations carry calm, you've got a set of steps that you want including these requests demands for the debt as you put it to be repaid. But the first step you want is a full formal apology from the British clone and the other colonial authorities in the Caribbean the French for instance. But you know you're not going to get that are you because that would trigger litigation it would trigger so that's why I go back to my original question which is, isn't it better in a sense to just get expressions of regret. First of all, to acknowledge that these crimes against humanity were actually committed I mean David Cameron when he went and visited Jamaica in 2015. He said I do hope that as friends, we have gone through so much together since those darkest times, and that we can move on from this painful legacy. Isn't that acknowledgement isn't there amongst British political establishment, painful leg. No, no, we all want to move on but you have to move on with accountability responsibility and justice we all want to move on but first of all you must acknowledge the notion of a statement of regret is something regretfully that I will never be a part of and I think anyone who understands who understands for accountability would reject that. Let me give you the distinction, and I will frame it to you metaphorically. Imagine you are sitting on the platform about to board your subway to go to work and, and a huge man, you know, 300 pounds steps on your foot. And you are diabetic, and your foot is damaged and it doesn't heal and you find yourself in a hospital and, and you, you, you've lost your foot has been amputated. Now the gentleman comes to you and he says listen, there are two choices. I can say to you, I regret that I stepped on your foot. Here's 100 pounds as an expression of my regrets now and goodbye. And goodbye. You're on your own goodbye. He can also say listen. I stepped on your foot. You've lost the use of that of that limb. I am very concerned about your future. But I want to take responsibility for what I've done to you. And not only will I visit you in the hospital, but I would want to find a way to help you with your rehabilitation. Maybe there's something I can do to help you with your rehabilitation so you could get back into the workforce, and you could get back on with your lives and I want to be there to assist you to return you to the state you were in. So you could get on with your life now you will then have to decide Zenib. Would you rather the first position here's 100 pounds go away and goodbye. Or would you rather a rehabilitative accountable responsible engagement to help you back on your feet so you could get on with your life. That is the second one is the apology. The first one is a statement of regret. No victim will ever accept a statement of regret if they have a choice. I was being devil's advocate for you because there is that you hear it from British cabinet ministers like you know. The former British international development secretary who says look, I want to target UK development to the poorest people in the world, rather than paying reparations in the belief that we're going to with somehow undo 300 or 400 years of colonial history in writing checks to people you know there is that view out there which so far you you know you've not won the arguments perhaps in in setting out the arguments in this book you will because there are some really very startling figures in it I remember reading how you said 600,000 enslaved Africans were taken to your native Barbados from 1621 when slavery, you know, started in Barbados and in 1834 when emancipation legislation eventually led to the freedom as it were of these people there were 83,000 left. So I mean, you know, people who died, they hadn't left I mean it's the scale of death and destruction really does. You know, beg a belief but it's a question of accepting your own history. The British people have not been taught effectively about the things they did beyond their own borders. The things they did to secure development. The things they did beyond their own shores to bring home the wealth to fund their own development. Those government over the decades over the centuries have protected the British people, not protected have shield them I should say from any knowledge of what their nation did. So, does the average person know that slavery was genocide that Britain committed not only the crime of the denying people their humanity by defining them as property chattel and real estate, but do they know that it was also genocide. I mean they come to Barbados on holiday, and they love Barbados but do they know that this is where genocide was committed by their people by their governments and their private sectors and so on. It's a question of accepting your own, your own history. Take for example the Treaty of Versailles. Britain held Germany to account for the First World War. And insisted that they pay reparations. They insisted that they pay reparations and when the Prime Minister Lloyd George and when the reparations deal was settled they told Germany you have to pay 31 billion US dollars for the harm and suffering you inflicted upon Britain and other countries so they held Germany to account. And while they were holding Germany account to pay reparations for the damages of the First World War, the Caribbean was also asking for reparations at the same time. Marcus Garvey was organizing a reparations campaign, the same way you got reparations from the German people pay reparations for what you have done and continue to do in the Caribbean. So it's a double standard, it has always been a double standard. After the war, the Second World War, Britain got the Marshall Plan. It was recognized that Britain could not rebuild itself on the basis of its own resources and needed a Marshall Plan, the Development Plan to put Britain back on its feet. At the same time, delegations from the Caribbean were coming to Britain to say, you know, it's been 100 years since the emancipation. We are now ending colonization. We need a Marshall Plan. These islands cannot get on their own feet. Without a Marshall Plan you owe the Caribbean the Development Plan, similar to what you are getting. Of course, they rejected the Caribbean while they accepted their own Marshall Plan. Again, another double standard. And the double standards continue decade after decade up onto this moment we are speaking. Why isn't there unity in numbers? I was very struck by last year the Jamaican Minister for Youth, Culture and Sport, Olivia Grange said, you know, we're hoping for reparatory justice in all its forms. It is well overdue but better speak with one voice, she said, and have one considered position by all people of African descent, be they be in the Caribbean, in Africa, the USA, Brazil, you know, and you could get together, have that critical mass and have a high level international reparation summit. But it doesn't seem that there is that unity amongst people of all African descent. Well, you know, in the context of Africa, there were countries that were prepared to wait it out and to negotiate their independence. There were countries that says we cannot take this anymore, we're going to go to war. And there were always multiple options available in this pursuit for freedom and development because humans are not robots. You know, they imagine different things at different moments and, you know, within one country there are multiple intellectual traditions and decisions that are made. So, fine, what we all know is that there has to be reparatory justice. As I said, there is no carpet, big enough to brush us under, it has to be addressed, but the road to that moment will illustrate multiple, multiple terrains. And there is a terrain that is calling for expansion of aid. There's another group that says we don't want any aid. We want development support with investment. So you have this continuous narrative. But critically, critically, this movement is getting larger and larger as we speak. And it is going to continue to embrace the world because the world is calling for accountability, not only for the past but the present. I was struck when I read some of those documents in the British archives that detailed how Caribbean leaders came to Britain to speak with the Macmillan Conservative Government to talk about reparations for development. And the correspond, the minutes of that meeting when the Jamaican Premier and his delegation, Mr. Bustamante, met with Macmillan. And they said, listen, you have ruled Jamaica for 300 years. You extracted wealth from Jamaica for 300 years. Jamaica was one of your primary sources of wealth that built Britain. Now, we are about to go to independence and we have 80% illiteracy. This is how you have left us with 80% illiteracy. What can we do to promote economic development with 80% illiteracy? He said, we have schools for only 7% of the children. How are we going to take off with economic transformation and development if we have schools for only 7% of the kids? Well, you need to help us to build some schools. You need to help us to build some hospitals. You need to participate in the development plan for Jamaica after your 300 years of plunder and extraction. If you read the correspondence between the various parts of the British government, preparing for that meeting, you had cabinet secretaries and permanent secretaries advising the government, no, listen, we have to get out of this on the cheap. We have to give them as little as possible and this is their language. We must let them know that we owe them nothing and we're prepared to give them it, but we're not prepared to give them development funding. So it's all there. Yeah, but just flipping it, why don't you, why isn't there, you know, as I said, strengthen unity? Why are people of African descent or Africans living on the continent of Africa all come together with a very clear set of demands? You need to hear different things. You know, in America, the most, you know, visible African diaspora in the world, you get some calls for everybody who is an African American, regardless of how wealthy they are, Oprah Winfrey, whatever, should get that bag of money as part of a comparatory system. You know, so, and that brings into, could arguably be, you know, it kind of undermines the argument that you're making. So why don't you as an influential voice say, we've all got to come together and make a single demand. First of all, I don't think it undermines my position at all. What it does is reflect the reality that I understand it to be. If you take, for example, this search for unity of which you speak. Well, there is no group of people on this planet who have had their leaders assassinated at the rate and with the intensity as the black people. In other words, when the black leaders, the intellectuals, when they come together to do exactly what you're calling for, we have had a mortality rate among black intellectuals and leaders. That is phenomenal. It goes back to slavery, right there in London in the British archives. There are instructions from Whitehall out to West Africa that will say, the chief of this community is opposed to our slave trade. The chief is opposed. You have permission to eliminate him. So, from way back then, we have, we've had these, these political assassinations. It's a, it's a critical part of, of our journey. So this, this search, this search for the one voice of which you speak is a very painful search in terms of mortality and why, why have there been assassinating the black leaders at this rate across the continents, because of course to achieve that objective is almost an impossibility in the context of the distribution of power. And those of us who are calling for justice and democracy are seen really as, as idealists. So reparation is not idealistic. Reparation is going to be a part of the restructuring of the modern world. But just picking up on this leadership issue, you do have a vice president in the United States, Carmela Harris, whose father is Jamaican, and the current administration has shown itself to be somewhat sympathetic towards the idea of reparations. You know, last year, the Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives held a vote on a bill that would create a federal commission to study, as it put it, the lingering negative effects of the institution of slavery in the US looking at various economic, political, educational and social discrimination, and to develop, as it said, some appropriate remedies, including perhaps potential reparations. So do you think that there is now some movement in the United States? Well, let's put it this way. For 100 years, civil society and the Caribbean have been calling for reparations for 100 years. The governments of the Caribbean never supported this request. They were not part of it. When they tried to negotiate with the British government and the British government just brushed them aside, they would return to the Caribbean and said, well, let us get on with it. Recently, however, circumstances have changed. And for the first time 2013, the Caribbean governments all came together and said, let us speak with one voice. And this is what they did. Let us speak with one voice on this matter, because we have been opposed to divide and rule for 100 years. So now let us transcend divide and rule and speak with one voice. This is when they established the carry-com reparations commission. I've been asked to be the chair of that. We moved from the Caribbean and went to North America and tried to revitalize the reparations movement there. They saw the carry-com model as an opportunity to revitalize the American movement. And boy, was it revitalized on the basis of the Caribbean experience. And they said, if 18 or 20 Caribbean governments can do this, why can't we do this here? And the campaign started in the Democratic Party and the grassroots organizations. And before you know it, it was in the Congress. Now, that's a tremendous development of unity between the Caribbean and North America. Now, last year for the first time, the governments of Africa and the governments of the Caribbean met in a summit for the first time. And this was a tremendous achievement to bring the African governments and the Caribbean governments into a summit. And they resolved that this will be an annual summit from here on in, because the search for that one voice between the Caribbean diaspora and Africa is precisely what this summit is going to achieve. The government of Kenya has just requested that I put together a summit in Kenya of black intellectuals, black advocates, grassroots organizers to come to Africa to talk about pan-African reparations. And we are speaking about this. We are going to have this summit of authors, advocates, writers, grassroots organizers to speak about reparations in African policy. So all the elements are coming together because there is a realization of the inevitability. The European Union parliament passed a resolution last year to say, yes, that we know of the crimes that were committed by the European nations and the European states in Africa, the Caribbean. So we are aware and we are resolved to a repatriatory justice path. The issue for the European Union parliament is to decide on the modalities, how and what. And of course, that's when the division began to occur. But the point is, you agree in principle that there has to be a repatriatory justice path. I don't know how long it will take to decide among themselves a consensus on what that path should be. But there is a decision that has been taken. Right, interesting. So there's some momentum building up. So, and by the way, I will go to the questions on the padlock shortly because we are getting a few. You've got any anybody on this webinar listening to this and some of the things that Hillary has raised, please do ask him to expand on them in the question device. So you set up very clearly in our conversation so far how and why former colonial powers such as Britain should be held to account for that imperial plunder and slavery and crimes against humanity. So we're set in context for us how global calls for reparations as part of a kind of new development discourse are gaining momentum. But I wonder if you could just explain to us how this is all relevant to the current conversations that we're all having, trying to imagine a new global economic order. How does it all fit in? Because you say quite clearly that the plight, economic plight of the Caribbean and Africa is still continuing. So explain to us why that is and how the thesis of your book can be made relevant to current conversations about reimagining the global economic order. Well, if we return to Walter's paradigm, how Europe underdeveloped Africa and the underdevelopment theory that was very prominent in the 70s and 80s to explain the failure of Africa to rebound and generation after independence and the underdevelopment theory, international trade, continuing domination of resource ownership and management, inadequate infrastructures and all of that. I mean, the conversation of Walter 50 years ago was very infrastructural. The development discourse have shifted once again and at the moment the poverty of Africa and to some extent the Caribbean, the explanation has come now as a pushback. And here's a pushback. You are poor and underdeveloped, largely because you're black, largely because you have no culture of economic management and skill and skill development. You are poor and underdeveloped largely because of your own ineptitude, your inability to find within your culture the energy and capacity to transform your reality and to grow. So, who basically dominant in the literature at the moment is the counter narrative that locates poverty in the developing world in terms of the culture of the indigenous people, those who were brought in as well. So, blame the victim. The Reparatory Justice Movement does is counter that counter narrative by saying hold on a second. You cannot tell us about our culture, about our intellectual ineptitude, we cannot use those white supremacy racist arguments that Europe transcended the world because of its culture. You cannot because we know what you did we know the history of the plunder so let us talk. Let us start logically about the issue of wealth extraction. Let us talk about political domination. Let us talk about economic ownership as the basis of the circumstances in which you have left the world. And so you use your Bretton Wood institutions, you use IMF and the World Bank, and we all know what the IMF and the World Bank did to developing countries. They actually help to further ravish them and push them back further in the development trajectory. So these institutions that were meant to be a part of the Western world's continued accumulation were partners and the further impoverishment of developing countries. The legacy of the IMF and developing countries is horrific. The legacy of the World Bank economic prescriptions in the developing countries have been horrific. All of that has now been exploded by solid empirical research. So developing countries are saying now, we need a level playing field to have a shot at democracy and development, we need a level playing field. We need participation and partnership. We do not need aid as a methodology. We need development, funding and finance. The Reparatory Justice Movement within that broader context is saying, and yes, yes, there is an unpaid debt that has to be a part of that negotiation. It cannot be settled in the conversation about aid. It has to be settled in a conversation about responsibility, accountability, partnership, democracy, building, and the ethics of future partnerships. So the Reparatory Justice Movement is a democracy movement. It's a social justice movement. It's an equity movement. It's a movement that says, listen, as human beings, we can do better than this. We can do better than this. We can move to a higher level of human interaction that makes this 21st century a much more peaceful place in which to dwell. That's lovely. Thank you, Hilary. So I've hogged you and monopolized you enough. Let's look at some of the questions that we're getting in. Let me give you this one. How does the reparations committee not focus on a development bank, a development bank for small and medium-sized businesses with a branch in every Caribbean island, financed from the old colonial powers. That would be the best reparations imaginable. That's from Dr. Roger Van Zwanenberg. Not everybody here has actually given their name, but that's one there. What do you think of that idea of kind of reparations development bank? The Cary Common Reparations Commission has been focusing on working through with the major financial institutions in the Western world that were a critical part of this extraction history. The City of London, for example, has accepted that their banks and their insurance companies were at the center of these crimes and we have reached out to them. There is a very guarded admission of culpability and they have insisted that they will love to have a conversation around the margins of the subject. In other words, we would like to give a little money to black organizations in London, schools, and we want to focus on giving an endowment to a grassroots organization in Tutambeck or have some somewhere. And there's that kind of margin of this approach and it would reach out to us and say, what do you think about that? So you have Lloyds of London that made billions insuring black people as slaves, they insured the slave ships, they made all of their money and they became a great insurance company, the best in the world and the biggest in the world, because they were insuring the slaves and the slave ships and they would say, they would put on their website, oh yes, that is true, but we have a social citizens program in which we are given some charity to a few institutions in London. Hold on a second. We have Barclays Bank, all of them, National Westminster Bank, the Royal Bank of Scotland, and we have approached all of them to have a conversation to talk about a financial package and strategy that would allow for investment in the region. You know, but there is still this consciousness and it's a white supremacy thing, you know, that we will control the terms and conditions of our negotiations with you. It's not a conversation, we will tell you, it will give you something on the side and you take it and go away, because they're committed to this regret as opposed to reparations conversations, as clearly as the problem. I'm referring to, I know in 2020 the insurance company Lloyds, they apologize for their role in the transatlantic slave trade and offered donations, contributions to charities that promote diversity and inclusion, and that you're saying just is not really what you're about. And we found that offensive, because the Caribbean people are talking about investments in schools and colleges, digital technology, they're talking about public health, you know, this legacy of hypertension and diabetes, the black people in the Caribbean, if you use the marker of chronic diseases, noncommunicable chronic diseases, if you use that marker, the black people in the Caribbean are the sickest people in the world, because we have the highest, we have the highest ratios in our adult population of their age, and why is that? Is it some kind of genetic flaw that black people in the Caribbean have? It has to do with slavery, sugar, salt, 400 years of consuming salt and sugar as meals every day, the psychological stress of colonization and racism and white supremacy. And this is what it's all about, the intergenerational transmission of sickness and disease. Now, we will have to talk about research and we would like to talk about turning this around. Yes, we have the science, we have the technology, but do we have the infrastructures to make a big impact upon rehabilitating the health of these people who are the descendants of enslaved people. We are speaking about partnership, we are speaking about collaborative interaction to move humanity forward. The white supremacy mentality in corporate Europe and corporate Britain is indeed the primary obstacle to these developments that we are asking for. May that clear. Thank you. Another question here is seeking reparations, simply now a holy grail that keeps us from putting energy into commercial and economic endeavors that could produce far more than could ever be claimed in reparations. Yes, it is always the response that says, listen, how do we discredit reparations? You remember back in the 60s when Martin Luther King was talking about integration. And he was talking about the integration of the house in stock, the integration of schools, the integration of financial institutions, how to get black people to be integrated into the economic systems. Well, the white supremacy group says, okay, we know what he means by reparation, by integration. What he really means is that black men wants to marry white women. And their counter defined integration as sexual integration and put Martin Luther King to in a circumstance where he had to say no, we're not talking about that. We're talking about economic integration now. The white supremacy group has said, oh, reparations is about black people standing around on street corners wanting handouts from white people and not wanting to take responsibility for themselves. That was how white supremacy defined reparations in an effort to discredit the value of it. We've had to say, hold on a second, that is your narrative. Reparations is about the partnership between two groups of people who have had an unequal and unequal extractive relationship and there is a search for rebalancing. There's a research, there's a search for justice. This is what this is all about. So yes, the Caribbean, I should tell you. If you look at the mess that Britain left the Caribbean in the 60s and the 60s, the 1960s is when the independence movement started. The Caribbean people were told you're on your own, no development support, no development financing, get on with it. The Caribbean people have been extremely responsible and taking care of themselves. The self-help, we have converted these colonies into viable democratic nations. This is seen as one of the freest societies in the world because of a commitment to democracy. Jamaica is seen as a country that has converted the horrendous history into a viable nation state where people can live and where society can be respected. So the Caribbean people have done a great deal to achieve a modernity on the basis of scarce resources and to take responsibility for self-help. The question is, if the Caribbean had at its back, in addition to this self-help and self-responsibility, if they had also had a leg up from the British government and the British private sector, if they had a leg up, how much further along they would have been in resolving this ethical and moral conundrum in which we find ourselves. And therein lies the problem. Right. A question here. It says, I'm one of the most passionate supporters of reparations and at the risk of sounding combative, since Carycom is now leading this charge. Do you think it would strengthen the call if Carycom started the process by carrying out preparatory justice within its own respective borders? The first order of business could be divesting the state of crown lands and introducing radical land reform distribution to the descendants of the former enslaved. If land ownership is empowerment, then wouldn't that be beginning to help repair the damage of emancipation? Well, this is precisely what Caribbean independence and development has been about. Independence in the Caribbean has been a reparatory justice project. The development of the Caribbean left alone and still being exploited was a reparatory justice project. If you take my university of the West Indies, for example, I have the pledge of leading. The British government planted a seed in the Caribbean, a university seed in 1948. The generation before Lloyd George, as Prime Minister, had said that the Caribbean is the slum of the British Empire. He was speaking as Prime Minister and he's reflected on the British Empire and described the Caribbean as the slum, the slum of the British Empire. Because it was recognized that the public health of the people in the Caribbean was the worst in the British Empire. Now, as a response to the revolt of the Caribbean people, they said, let us build in the Caribbean a small medical school. And we will fund for them a small medical school that will begin to look at the diseases that are ravishing the public health in the region. That was 1948. A small grant. A few a few dozen students. The college was placed under the tutelage of London University. So we were a college of the University of London, small tutelage. Next year, this university is celebrating 75 years of service. The Caribbean people who took this small imperial college as it was called took this small imperial college and built it on the basis of its own resources and responsibility into a university of 50,000 students. That is now classified in the top 1.5% of the best universities in the world. That was achieved by Caribbean people taking responsibility for their own future, building up collectively a major institution, thanking the British benefactor for their investment. But saying, okay, we can take it from here. And of course, Caribbean development has been precisely about that. Caribbean people repairing through self-help the damage done on the colonialism. And remember, you know, colonialism is not over. There are still British colonies in the Caribbean. The Caribbean is still the part of the world that has colonies. The British have colonies in the Caribbean. The French have colonies in the Caribbean. The Dutch have colonies in the Caribbean. The Caribbean remains the most colonized part of the world. And this is where colonization started. Columbus came into this region and started the juggernaut of colonization. But this is not over. It is not over, my friends. We are still dealing with colonization every day in the Caribbean world. It is unjust, and it's immoral. I mean, lots of questions coming. You won't be able to get through all of them. But there's another question here about the underdevelopment. The reason is many people blame Africa's underdevelopment on the resource curse. What is your stance on this? Well, I don't know if having ample resources is a curse. It's the way in which you are able to utilize those resources in an effective way. Development comes with side effects that are the result of investor attitudes, views about society, and how the environment is polluted. And I think it's important to remember that the environment is polluted. It's not only about environmental community development. And if you only have to remember Britain in the 19th century with the factory revolution and the coal mines and all of that environmental pollution that defined Victorian Britain. Not only the children, how they were used as cheap labor, but also the effects of industrialization. So, you know, at different moments of history, you have these challenges. It is not appropriate for people in the Western world to ignore their own history. And this is what reparations is all about. You cannot ignore your own history and hold other people to an account that you yourself are fundamentally the primary breachers of those standards. It's a double standard that we have to reflect upon and the search for justice and for equity always require that we all bring our history to the table so that we can adjudicate and find a good balance for favorable partner. Another question here on, and it's how strong would be the present debate on the need for European reparations if most African and Caribbean countries had achieved high levels of human capital development and possessed strong institutions? Well, you know, the Caribbean is at the crossroads at the moment. In terms of the Americas, the Caribbean, from a development perspective, let us speak about social capital, the development of schools. The Caribbean has the lowest enrollment in poor secondary education in the entire Americas. Less than 15% of the kids in the Caribbean who go to secondary school enter into poor secondary education and poor secondary education, not only university, but also skills training, professional development, of course, academic training. Now, with that ratio of enrollment in poor secondary education, the potential for this region is significantly suppressed. Last year, the Jamaica Minister of Labor made a statement that only 17% of the workers in Jamaica are in some way certified as having some kind of skill or training. That is the norm across the region. It is chronically low. It's a question of affordability. No government that had access to resources would want to maintain such a labor force. Those of us in higher education have done all we can to promote access to higher education in order to promote economic development, social justice, and social civility. But the plumbing is broken in the basement. If the circumstances around primary education are so awful, and that filters up to a catastrophe at the secondary level, then of course, at the tertiary level, you're going to have fundamental problems. You're not going to have the pipeline access. And we know that given all the models of economic development that we have available to us, a country's potential for economic transformation and development is an expression of the number of its citizens who have skills training, professional development, and academic training. And from the point of view of the Caribbean at the lowest points of the Americas, that should tell you what we can reasonably expect to find in the next 10 to 15, 20 years in terms of economic development. What if we had the capacity to break through with that, to fix the educational system in terms of access at the secondary level, and to pipeline those people up to the tertiary level, and to create the social capital for transformation. What if we had the resources to do that? Reparatory justice conversations assigned to Britain. This is a strategy that can be used, can be discussed, whereby you can return a portion of that wealth that you have taken from the Caribbean people and reinvest it in the people who are the descendants of the enslaved and the indentured. This is the conversation that we are having right now. This answers the question partly, but it might want to expand on the mechanism. What is your proposed mode of payment with respect to reparations since many claim that the payment to the descendants of those who were enslaved would be far too complex. The Caribbean methodology is not about individualized approaches to reparatory justice. It's an institutionalized approach. We are talking about investment partnering. We're not speaking about individual access and extractions through personal narratives. We are speaking about economic investment in partnering. We are speaking about investment in public health, investments in educational infrastructure, investment in agricultural reform to allow those rural communities to be able to develop entrepreneurial options around agriculture. We are speaking about improving the digital infrastructure in the region. Right now we have a terrible circumstance where the vast majority of the children in the Caribbean region do not have access in their households to internet to allow them to participate in education. And during the course that we saw the consequences of that, thousands and thousands of children locked out of education because they do not have internet infrastructures because the investment in putting the infrastructure in place by the private companies is considered to be uneconomical. So these are challenges that are real, that are the legacies of colonization. These are the legacies that we are speaking about, the fundamental inequalities, the environments that are not suited for economic transformation and so on. We have a circumstance where at least half of the population is considered to be living in ghettos. But this is how they were forced to live on the colonization. They were just strung out across these ghettos. And when COVID came and the governments were saying to people, well listen, listen, you know, you have to stay, you have to stay in your home. You have to come off the streets. There are curfews, come off the streets, stay in home. But the households for half of these people are congested households in the ghettos and the household is the place where you were catching the COVID and your chance of escaping COVID was to leave your house and come out of the house, go on the street. You were safer on the streets than in your congested houses. So we had these contradictions with respect to public policy and science. So eventually people began to take the law into their own hands by coming out of their homes and going on the street because the reality is that the home was where the COVID was concentrated. I mean, you bring up COVID and obviously Caribbean countries taking a real hammering because they saw their tourism revenues decimated. And I think it's a surprising factor for a lot of people that countries such as Barbados, which qualifies middle income countries, actually do not warrant or merit any development aid from the United Kingdom because they're deemed to be too rich. They're not low income countries, they're middle income countries. And so don't receive any development aid at all. But that's just a part of that, what we call that white supremacy that was embedded in the Bretton Wood agreements, the World Bank, the IMF. They come to your societies and they say, okay, there's an elite of very rich people and many of them are British or European citizens. They live in the Caribbean. Sometimes they visit the Caribbean. And you have this elite of very wealthy people. Then you do your per capita calculation. And you say, hey, here's the country with a very healthy per capita distribution. It mask the poverty of the masses. IMF says you're not entitled to this because you have this distribution. On reparations, another point here. The astounding discovery that the loan taken by the British government to compensate the slave owners who held enslaved Africans was only repaid in 2015. Do you agree that one means of reparatory justice could be a tax rebate for all UK tax-paying African descendants of our enslaved African ancestors? And just to remind people about those figures, of course, slavery was abolished in 1807. The slave trade rather was abolished in 1807, but slavery not until 1833 and the British government repaid, I think, the equivalent of about $10 billion to the former slave owners. And it took out a loan of $20 million in 1833 and didn't repaid that until 2015. That's what that's referring to there. So people of African descendants of enslaved Africans could get a tax rebate. I'm not sure that Her Majesty's revenue and customs would accept that, but it's a novel. It's so important to speak of double standards. I'm on record for having said that the British Emancipation Act was the most racist piece of legislation ever passed in the British Parliament. And this is against the background of a belief that it was the most humanitarian piece of legislation ever passed. But what actually happened with that act? The British Parliament, having decided that they were going to pay compensation to the owners of slaves for the loss of their property, had first of all, end of parliament to agree that if you're going to pay property compensation, the black people of the Caribbean, the 700,000 enslaved people, had to be first of all classified as property. So first of all, you have to define them as property in order to pay property compensation. And the British government had been dodging that for 200 years. Many of them were saying, well, you know, what they do in the Caribbean is not quite British law. You know, they're doing that slavery malarkey down in the Caribbean. But here in Britain, you know, we believe in freedom and there's none of that here. Well, I mean, another comment. But to pay the compensation, they had to classify on the law that the 700,000 black people were not human and property and the British government did that in one swoop. Define black people as non-human in order to pay property compensation. Then on top of that, they said, okay, what is the value of the 700,000 blacks in the Caribbean? They did an actuarial calculation. They said they are worth 45 million pounds. That's what they're worth. That's their market value. That's a replacement value. But they said to the slave owners, we're not going to pay you 45 million. We're going to pay you 20 million. And thus they borrowed that 20 million from the Rothschilds and paid 20 million. But the act was designed in such a way that they said, okay, here's 20 million in cash. The question was, well, they were 45. So what about the remaining 25 million? The British government said, fine, what we'll do is this. After we have freed them, we're going to make them work for free for another six years. So they will contribute that 25 million in free labor after they have been freed. And that is what the British Act did. So the black people ended up paying 48%. Well, there's a comment here about the Haitians are poor today because they had to pay reparations to their former French enslavers. Reparations were paid to former enslavers. Why is the reverse reparations to the formerly enslaved? Not possible. That's unfathomable. So a comment there. A quick comment about, because we haven't got much time left now, just a few minutes. I want to get some of these just some rapid answers. What about intent? Somebody said that the analogy you gave about the stepping on someone's foot cause in the loss of that foot is an analogy that totally ignores the matter of intent. And there was intent in the whole slavery thing. Fair point. Yeah. Well, intent is not to be discussed. Yeah. Okay. And so a point here, you've kind of addressed this a bit. How can the call for reparations serve the call for a new international order that supports the thriving and wellbeing of all people within Earth's regenerative capacity? So that's that there. There's a point here, which is my question. Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea have respectively made phenomenal strides beyond colonial recognition without recourse to colonial era reparations. Why Africa and the Caribbean special, you might want to pick that up. Absolutely. And that's why in my book, there is a chapter called reject the West Indies support the East Indies. Now, when the West Indians were in London, seeking to meet with the British government to discuss a development package for the West Indies. The British government was also at the same time while rejected the West Indies formulating strategies to assist the East Indies, because the British government admitted that in the post war era, the East Indies was more important than the West Indies. And thus in 1950, at the Commonwealth meeting in Colombo, Sri Lanka, they worked out the Colombo plan. The Colombo plan was a martial plan for the East Indies colonies. And they made massive investments in the East Indies in exactly the same way that the West Indies were asking for. So the West Indian plan was rejected, but it was taken and applied to the East Indies to enable India and Singapore and Burma and all the various colonies Sri Lankan salon at the time. So the East Indies got the development plan that the West Indies had been calling for. It's called the Colombo plan. And the Colombo plan was magnificent for the East Indies because Britain was able to get Japan and to some extent the United States to contribute towards the Colombo plan in order to help economic transformation of the East Indies. So it's a very good question. Why did the East Indies get the reparation strategy in place? Why not the West Indies? And the argument I presented here is that the politicians and the British parliament and the successive governments were unable to forgive the West Indians for revolting against the British Empire in the 1930s, because the West Indian revolt of the 30s triggered an Indian revolt, triggered the African revolt, and they were holding the West Indians responsible for the collapse of the British Empire because within a matter of a decade or two, Asia and Africa were all rising up against British rule and demanding independence, but that process was triggered by a Caribbean wide movement of decolonization. I think they wanted to punish the West Indies and all the information that I have unearthed from the correspondence of British governments, the internal correspondence of the cabinets. They all point to this and its capable conclusion that the white supremacy attitude was hostile to the Caribbean deep into the 20th century, and we would never embrace the way the East Indies were in Colombo with a Colombo plan. If the Caribbean had received a Colombo plan, it will be well ahead today. Yeah, I read that chapter question here about restitution which sometimes goes hand in glove with the reparations issue. How important influential was the wonderful late but that's my addition Bernie Grant who of course is the Labour MP for Tottenham in north London of Caribbean origin. What was important was his Africa reparations movement and the campaign for restitution of violently looted artworks and that was in the 1990s. We are seeing some movement aren't we on this question of restitution of looted artworks and in fact there was a commission, the Savoy Commission in France which said that 90% of Africa's cultural artifacts reside outside the continent. Making some progress in that particular sphere would you say? Well you know every inch along the journey, every step has to be commended because the headwind, the headwind against taking those small steps is so enormous that if you're able to make one step in the right direction in the face of adverse headwinds, you have to say it is better than nothing. However, until there is a conversation about the structure of that plunder and the nature of that plunder that the entire continent could be subject to that kind of pillage and other people benefit from that pillage and come to see pillage as normal. And in the western world you know I've heard the arguments well we took them to protect them. We took them to save them so that the people who produce the art are now going to be savages to destroy what they have produced and you have this circular argument that absolutely speaks to a certain kind of mindset. People who possess that mindset cannot see themselves critically. Yeah, it was the 2018 SAR Savoy report commissioned by the French government that found that 90% of Africa's cultural legacy lay outside the continent. I was trying to remember the other part of the Savoy bit, SAR Savoy. Somebody here I'll just take it as a comment and says how would Africa have developed by now I understand that the abundance of resources that it had would likely have led it to perhaps being another superpower, but would the resource curse be more than more likely I've already answered a question on the resource curse but this person also says PS I've started reading your book since yesterday and I must agree with Zana Badawi it's gripped me as an iconic masterpiece. There you go. Let me I think we're coming close to time so I'll just give you this. Two people have asked the same question Deb from Nigeria what inspired you to write this book. And do you think did you think it will make this much impact it's only just out. And same question what motivated you to choose this topic to write your book. And what's what was some of the limitations not quite sure you can take that how When I started my academic career I the courses I taught when I was in the UK I taught a course, the comparative economic development of Britain and Japan. So that's how I started looking at British industrialization Japanese industrialization and why these two countries were able to achieve phenomenal economic growth in the 19th and 20th centuries. In the Caribbean, I started to teach Caribbean economic history to explain this persistent poverty in the Caribbean and why it is structurally unable to emerge out of this out of this and this under development structures and I realized that the one way I could pay respect to Walter Rodney that was lasting was to endorse and validate the logic of his analysis the depth of his research because I believe that at the time Walter's book was published in the 70s. The world was not ready for that book that book was ahead of its time the world was not ready for it. And to some extent Walter Rodney's reputation as a brilliant scholar did not get the kind of varnish that he was entitled to, because he was so ahead of his time. Since then has been the emergence of the recognition of the vision of a brilliant young man who was looking for humanity to transcend and bring moral order to the world and he was a humanist that fundamentally so. So writing this book was to bring that paradigm into the Caribbean circumstance, and to show the similarities between the African issues and the Caribbean issues. But importantly, you know, this, this was going to be my retirement book. I intended to write this book in retirement, take my good old time and write it but then so many friends and colleagues were being the victims of covert. In my university friends and other universities, people who I admire and respected the covert mortality was devastating so many people around me and, and you know, good health seems so good, so elusive into the future so I decided you know. While I am above ground and relatively good health I better get on with it and use the opportunity of the lockdown to stay in my house and while running the university right in this book and so it was a covert project and at the same time, while it was meant to provide a certain kind of support for a certain kind of movement and narrative. At the same time, it was also therapy, you know, and we have to acknowledge that writers need therapy as well so the kind of mental health strategy. But it was always in my mind to germinate in over decades. And it all came together and the idea of having it written and launch in the 50th anniversary of Rodney's book seems such a perfect conjuncture of celebration of Walter Rodney. And just one final question then from me. Do you think we'll achieve reparations in your lifetime. Well, here's the issue. In the case of Britain slavery was abolished in the 1830s. If you had done Zenib if you had done an opinion poll in eight in 1820. If you come to the Caribbean in 1820 and say to the 700,000 and slave people, do you think you will see freedom in your lifetime. I would venture to say that 95% of them would have said no. But it happened within 10 years. But 95% I'm sure would have said everyone, because we've been a slave for 300 years how are you going to imagine you're going to get freedom intent. The majority would have said no. People today, if there were opinion polls would probably say no that we will not see Reparatory Justice in this way in our lifetimes, but take comfort in Nelson Mandela's statement. It is always impossible until it happens. And history when it begins to move it moves swiftly. So yes, I am using that logic. I am saying yes, we will see significant movement in our lifetime. Thank you, Hillary. I mean look for centuries there've been calls for Reparatory Justice for the descendants of enslaved Africans and I doubt that today we could find somebody more brilliant than you to really advance the case and the cause. It's been a privilege and to listen to you I always come away with having learned so much and you're such an inspiration. And I couldn't get through all the questions because you generated so much interest but I'm sure that there'll be many other opportunities for young students to pick your brains and ask you about this very, very important topic. Thank you so much. I'm going to hand over to Professor Adam Habib now just to make a couple of closing remarks but wasn't he brilliant Adam? Fascinating. Thank you, Zainab. Very kind of you, very generous. Thank you, Hillary. Zainab you're absolutely right he was and Hillary I should start by your final question that Zainab posed. There was a study done in South Africa two years before Nelson Mandela was released about whether apartheid would end in 1988 and they said it's unlikely to end in their lifetime. Two years later Nelson Mandela was released and four years later we went to a democratic South Africa so I do think your answer is a really powerful one. I should say the substance of Hillary's message is threefold. It seems to me. If our species is to survive the next 100 to 200 years, then it's important that the human community coheres and comes together. If it is to come together, you can't do so without justice being at its core. And you can't get justice being at its core if we are not prepared to take accountability and responsibility for the past. And that's why reparations is so important. Reparations were granted to slave owners. Reparations were granted to the UK and Western Europe in the aftermath of the world wars. Why can it not be granted to the descendants of slaves. And what he also says is reparations is not individualized. It's fundamentally structural. It's correcting for the historical disadvantage that the peoples of the world imposed in the very way our global economy emerged. And so it says to me, I think it's a powerful message, Hillary. I think we couldn't have done a better justice to Walter Rodney to rearticulate his message of 50 years ago that you can't go forward. You can't go forth without reimagining the world as a more just place. Thank you, Hillary. Thank you, Zaynab. I think you brought this message really powerfully. This is after all on a still as platform and I should say our responsibility is to ask global debates, global challenges, and how do we take forward global solutions. Hillary did a wonderful job on this debate, and we will be having obviously another debate in a month's time, and obviously we'll be advertising that so thank you to all of you. Thank you to Zaynab. Thank you to Hillary. And may everyone have a wonderful evening today. Thank you, Adam. Thank you, Zaynab. Thank you, Hillary. Thanks for your kindness. I appreciate it. Thank you. Stay in touch. Stay in touch. Thank you. We'll do. Bye-bye. Bye, Hillary. Bye, Adam. Thank you.