 I'm Harrison Goldstein. I am with CDAE PCOM in the Catstone class and we're taking a look at CCTV in this podcast. We're doing and today I'm here with Myle Jewel and Lauren Glendavidian. Nice to see you. You too. What a great day. I'm excited to be here Yeah, I know. I'm settling right in. Yeah, me too. All right. That's super nice So before we get into it just you guys want to tell me about yourselves a little bit introduce a Deeper intro please you first. All right well I'm Lauren Glendavidian and I work here at CCTV Center for Media and Democracy and I have been doing this work since I left UVM in 1982 and started CCTV in 1984 and have been here ever since a variety of capacities currently I'm in I do production work, but I also am essentially in charge of policy and Finance and making sure we have enough resources to keep these community media services available for the community And Myle, you can tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah, absolutely so as I mentioned a lecturer in Department of Community Development and Applied Economics and Teach a class called Community Media Production. So I'm gonna kind of tie everything to to this place and in that class we look at social media community media and public media but use CCTV as a case study to Essentially see how community media is put into practice and in the local in the local area and Also in the freelance filmmaker in the community So have been working closely with Lauren Glenn to start the process of making Documentary about the history of CCTV as well as kind of all all the what would you call it programming and everything that's kind of come out of here You know including things like Center for Media and Democracy and then looking at how there was you know channels set up channel 17 and how this all kind of tells a really rich history of Access to the tools of communication Yeah, and I definitely think that looking at like you said using the case study and understanding What it's done and how it functions. I definitely think that's important Not just in media sense But in terms of anything with teaching or looking at it to get a better understanding of what you're actually looking at So going back to a little intro What is CCTV? Like you said it was created in 1984 But how was it created? Why was it created and were you by yourself in its creation or Where's there a team of you a group of you that were really pushing for we need to see this CCTV? Yeah, so One of the things miles and I have in common as were anthropologists were trained in that tradition And when I was at EVM I studied anthropology and I also learned about a tradition of Filmmaking that was designed to put the means of production into the hands of the people and Examples of that could be found in the British film board and the Canadian film board and that model challenge for change Which came out of Canadian film board where folks were given cameras to tell their stories and organize as one tool in their toolkit for Social change was very inspiring to me And it was also inspiring to George Stoney who had been hired as the producer of that series and then took the lessons of Using video as an organizing tool to NYU and train the first generation of community Media producers or at that time they were called public access TV producers So when I left UVM, I didn't have access to equipment anymore I had made a lot of super eight films and written done a lot of thesis work, but I hadn't I wanted to an efficient way of Doing documentary and telling the story of the community and I chose to stay in and around Burlington, Vermont after Graduating from UVM because of the relationships that I had with the people that had grown up here and The families that took me in in effect as as one of their own And so I felt that this was a very exciting place to be not to mention the fact that Bernie Sanders had been elected as Mayor and I knew that as a young person seeking political agency that I would find it here in Burlington Much more so than I would if I went back to New York where I grew up so I chose to stay in Burlington and I knew about this thing called public access television, which was really fledgling at that time, although I must say in St. John'sbury and in Brattleboro there had been public access television in the 70s So they had covered their city council meetings and there had been this Phenomenon that had come up from New York and also from Goddard College where a lot of the first folks have been trained and So I knew about this thing called public access TV And I knew that cable companies could be asked to provide equipment and I knew I wanted to make Documentaries and I knew I was an activist so I went to the cable company at the time and I Asked them for I knocked on their door. I said hi. I'm here to borrow your equipment and they literally had a Closet mark closet that they opened the door with this piece of equipment. They had equipment, but it was by no means usable and So I left that day realizing very quickly that in order to achieve my goals I would need to mobilize and work with other people to ensure that there was this thing called public access television funded in Vermont So in answer to your question, did I do this alone? No, I did not do this alone. I Put up flyer. I said come to the library on Wednesday night. We're gonna talk about this thing public access television and All these folks showed up well the librarian showed up people from the high school showed up somebody from Essex educational video showed up a lawyer showed up a young guy who wanted to help us and this also was at the same time that Bernie Sanders was trying to engineer Municipalizing the cable system in Burlington so he had a mayor's task force on cable TV So there was the mayor's task force on cable TV Which I muscled art myself on with another person and then there was this group of people that came to the library That really thought this idea of public access was great so together We figured out that in order for at that time for the cable company to get a rate increase They don't have to get approval anymore, but at that time they had to get approval for rate increases They had to go to the state regulators known as the public service board and get approval and That was a time when you as a citizen could get party status and We use that party status to make a case for the cable company funding Public access channels and making public access channels available and at that time The public had not sought party status in regulatory Matters Environmentalists were not yet intervening in energy cases Even though that was what the public service board oversaw energy telephone cable any utility Because cable was considered a utility at that time and we were successful in Advocating for these channels and these this funding because we had a young lawyer who as he says got his ducks in a row We got our ducks in a row and we did that and we were able to obtain funding and channels for Five communities in Vermont including the Burlington area and that was really the start of what we did So we did not I could not have done that alone I've never been able to do this work alone And I think the success of community access here and in what are now 25 centers across the state of Vermont are Due to activists who are interested in improving the lives of their community and understand that Locally controlled media is one of the ways to make that happen. Yeah, awesome. So do you think with? like looking back to when you were Pushing for it to it's for CCTVs creation were you do you think you were more focused on the wanting to be a creator wanting to have access to highlight events or documentaries going on or Events taking place that you want to document into a documentary Do you think your motivation was more for that on the creator side and like creators like Are can be selfish in it? I mean, that's how you have to create sometimes to get ahead So do you think your perspective on it was more towards being the creator or making this resource and this thing for the Community for the good of it initially because now obviously it's turned into a thing for the community Everywhere, it's in Vermont. It's a community resource But looking back at the beginning. What do you think your initial? Inspirations are were I think that's a good question and I think I Wanted to be able to make documentaries But I understood really quickly that in order to liberate the means of production and distribution It was now an organizing effort and that that was going to allow me to work with other people to make programs but that first we had to liberate the means of production and distribution and I think I had because I was trained as a community leader in my high school and Just my nature Which is coming from a family of entrepreneurs people who invent things businesses Enterprises it was second nature to me and I didn't I had full confidence that it was possible There wasn't I never really saw barriers to doing this thing We needed to do and because I was able to work with people who thought the same way And because we were in a political environment where Bernie Sanders was mayor Everything said go there really was There was there was friction with the cable company because they weren't didn't want to say yes until they Realized it was in their best interest to say yes And it would make them look good to say yes, and they had said yes in other cities around the country So it just made it easier for them to say yes after a certain point That was really the only friction We had the support of local government. We had the support of community institutions We had the knowledge and the brashness to to take on a regulatory process which I Mean we just did it and there was excitement in that in that organizing effort and I was lucky to Meet people who wanted to make television like Nat air who co-started CCTV with us But very quickly I was I Played a part in other people's media making and also played a part in being the front person for this effort and So my desires to make documentaries and to tell the story of the community were quickly Realized through other people and that satisfied me You know, I was on TV. I helped Nat and I made television together for years but I was satisfied to be the Support in that effort because I knew that the most important work that needed to be done Was as I said to liberate the means of production and distribution for the people in our community So that is what jazzed me up. Yeah, and I think that some that's always been special about This area will Vermont really as a whole but especially Burlington. It's so Closest thing to a city. We're gonna see in the state But how much other people care about What someone is doing even if they've never met them or heard of them is that they're like, wow, this is a cool thing This is a really good thing for the community. I'm gonna get support this I'm gonna go out and like pick it for it. If that's necessary I'm gonna go out and tell people that they should support it too And I think that is something that definitely makes Burlington special and I feel like Definitely aided in the creation of CCTV Because They saw that the community wanted it. It wasn't just you and your friends It was like you said a lawyer and never it was a wide range of people So I definitely think that that special trade of Burlington is Definitely helped in many aspects if I could just add something I think it's worthwhile to point out that at that time in Burlington Many different kinds of community institutions were being established. Yeah So having a community media center was part of an overall movement to have youth employment programs Employment programs and trades programs for women the community health center the Burlington community land trust being these are now institutions of great value to the community that were started because Bernie Sanders and the young people that were running city government at the time were Excited about creating a new kind of community a new kind of city an open city for people that Could use access to resources to change their lives So I think it really is important to understand The moment in history when we were trying to take this work it was this kind of perfect moment the zeitgeist that was made possible by Bernie's leadership and the young people around him that were running local government and Being in a state like Vermont where you could as a member of the public gain party status in a state level proceeding Those conditions were not true in many other places there were places where it was true Berkeley, California Madison, Wisconsin North Adams in Massachusetts, right? but we were these kind of few on claves of The 60s now becoming actualized in the life of transforming the Institutions and community infrastructure in these places. Yeah, and definitely how you said that If you had gone back to New York, you know this possibilities wouldn't have been because like in the 80s New York was all business business business Look at me. I'm doing well and that I mean the city was not New York City was not at its best, but it was a very Like in the grand village still like the core art community, but then you can't Do what you did here with just that one community. So I definitely Think that it was just You got the hand you were dealt was it blinded up perfectly for it to all fall into place with Minimal resistance, and I think that is part of what definitely helped with this so we've touched a little bit on it, but And this for both of you, but how would you define community media? I know miles. It's a big fan of what community media? That question and then what comes to mind when you hear the term or what do you see think of feel? Yeah, I mean It's kind of interesting because I think I had my own definition of community media before we've before we met and I Think it's important to say you can really bucket You know a lot of different facets of community media, and I think there's a lot of different people that use that term very differently You know for instance, I met some folks at a film festival that run the Bay Area video coalition And they had asked me to be on this panel But from the perspective as a filmmaker that is engaging with community media's archives to use those in in a kind of documentary Documentary way and you know they very specifically at the start of the panel said like we want to define the community media that we're talking about which is essentially peg public education and government Access yep, and so That arena everything I know about that is basically through Lauren Glenn so so I won't speak to that But I will say you know I'll kind of leave that that bucket for you, but something that I've spent some time in you know through the anthropological background You know I was turned on to Ethnographic approaches to media and a lot of that Really pushes the agenda that you that you know we should be telling people stories from the perspective To whom that perspective belongs and that's a really fancy way of just saying put yourself in somebody else's shoes and continually if we look at anthropology as a kind of Colonial practice Continually the people that were putting it into practice would always be self-critical of it and continue to try and Come up with better means of doing this really hard task of trying to represent reality in the constructed medium So for instance, you know you learn and you know This is me coming out of the University of Vermont as an English-Anthro undergrad Going to NYU and studying film theory and criticism but being part of a program called the program in culture and media Which was through the anthropology department, so then we get this deep robust history of ethnographic media and specifically The the real strong efforts to try and break down the power dynamics You can think of people like David and Judith McDougal trying to go into communities for long periods of time and shoot Observationally so that the camera becomes non-existent, but then you also learn histories of Jean Rouche Where he says the cameras the catalyst and he wanted to have the camera Be interactive and performative and he'd allow people to play themselves and would encourage people to perform To try and push back against that observational stuff and then you have people, you know pushing kind of indigenous media I mean you look at kind of community radio as a real robust form of rural communities marginalized communities getting the tools of communication to to create their own kind of media ecosystem And I think you know can't really You know it's very vast and I'll say that And I'll kind of pause there because because that's the tradition that I came from and I think you know I was also working over in this kind of kind of driven to work commercially for a little bit and Was in New York and then upon coming back here Kind of had some instinct where it was you know I wanted to be involved in a community and so it seemed like a way to get back and add some value was to start Using some of the privilege and and tools that I had been trained into to get involved and that very quickly become apparent when You know, it's the pandemic George Ford just happened. There's massive protests around the country here in Burlington and all of a sudden Trying to realize and like hey, I should be paying attention to city council meetings and Showing up online the city council meetings and it's like who's who's put all this infrastructure in place to get this This done and then it becomes you kind of peek behind the curtain and those folks are the people to do the government in education access so That was kind of a real through line to say, okay, let's let's take a closer look at this and try and get involved So I'll kind of let you speak to that too I just love that historical perspective that you laid out, which is why it's It just is thrilling to me when I hear that and and it reminds me of a couple of key moments in that Documentary history and the first moment that I think about is when John Greerson started the British film board in the Canadian film board when he was running the British film board he brought cameras into the Apartments of people in Glasgow for a film called housing problems and it was the first time that cameras had been put on location in a documentary and That was a huge deal. I mean imagine I mean the cameras were immense It was not an easy undertaking, but he brought the cameras to the people so they could talk about Their issues related to housing and then that film could be used to change policy and Then I think that is why Greerson was very open when we work for the Canadian film board and a Generation of people came to him and said those films that you're making don't tell our story for the Canadian film board We want to get our hands on this equipment and use that to work with people to tell their stories So they can change their futures So when equipment became portable enough That it you could democratize storytelling, right? I mean history is written by the people who hold the language, right the whole idea of popular history history written by children Poor people you people that never wrote history. That's not what we learned. We learned the history of the people who were educated the educated elite so Portable video equipment just like portable audio equipment was very disruptive to how stories were told At a time when you were you had news from the three networks or you had Films from the four studios or you had the documentary producers, you know the Canadian film board So when the the Challenger change crew brought the cameras into the communities it was still once removed I mean they were educated elite activists, right? so that's even Still once removed, but it wasn't the Corporate documentary making bosses producing the films and they were able to Bring people's voices to the table for the purposes of making change in their neighborhoods and in their communities and To help utilize those voices to influence policy and outcomes That was a giant shift. It wasn't the hundred percent shift yet, but it was a giant shift in how stories were told and Change was made which is why I think we emphasize in our work that the Video cameras in the technology is one tool in a broader agenda, which is social change So we're not making media Just to make media or to sell things or to aggregate eyeballs and collect data. We're making media So that things can change and that I think this non-commercial Change-oriented focus of what we do is what makes community media formally known as public Educational and government access we had to rebrand because we didn't want to just be identified only with cable television So that's when the idea of community media was developed in the early 2000s Community media is Non-commercial in the hands of the people then you for making social change happen and if that is putting city council meetings on because you can open the doors of government and make it transparent or And then let people watch these Workings of government so they can understand what's happening and then decide to make their own change and then come here and get their hands On the equipment to go and mobilize people to change the parking on the street or the rent structure or whatever it is They need to change That's the exciting part and that's what community media is Yeah, I mean storytelling is such a powerful tool and then Video cameras cameras audio as a asset or accessory to that tool just makes it So much more powerful and I can only imagine if like in so many events art history if There had been the opportunities for the communities to share their experiences just like like in Ireland during the great hunger If they had been able those people had been able to give their stories of what was going on because I was in Ireland I talked to locals and it's like yeah That's a mass grave right right there But then imagine if it was while it was happening and you had the people that could be like this is our reality this was going on or pre-World War two in Russia when the When Jews were fleeing the country because they're being attacked if they if there are cameras there And it could be more of just a headline that like mass influx of immigrants to New York City or Ellis Island overflowing You could how it could change those perspectives. I mean, why knew it was the 1940s 1930s 20s, so it was Ideals were different, but at the same time it's still Like they could just be different because they don't know what was happening And they were getting it from that main source instead of seeing it And I think the like I said storytelling and video is such an important and strong tool And I think that with people able to see what's going on I think that can help them either sympathize or understand the situation more to either be more in support or Be less against it and I just think that it Like with the parking on the street or the housing crisis in Burlington people So when that lives in Shelburne that doesn't have anything to do with Burlington except working at the medical center Maybe and they come here during the day for work and then they leave and then they don't come back But maybe they see a video that's like hey, I'm paying $2,000 a month for this little apartment. That's not bigger than the set right here and It the water comes out black or whatever. I mean this it I don't hope that's not anyone's case it's definitely not mine, but That might show that person that this is something important that like it doesn't affect me But how is this right that this is someone that's trying their in school or whatever trying to make a better life for Themselves trying to get a degree or there have a job that they're trying to advance themselves through but then they're being put down by what's going on with the housing or the Yeah, the housing especially. I mean, I think that storytelling is crucial to Understanding situations and so going off of that what are some like events in CCTVs past that Was we're either covered by CCTV or maybe maybe some you remember Or it could be like even like PBS because that's like the original like Public access television, I guess that we all grew up with So what are some events that you think like we're important Important events that are like that's what CCTV is here for like that's why we do what we do That's why I pushed so hard for this. Yeah, I think just to put a fine point on what you're saying I think that public broadcasting was designed as a public benefit to have alternative to have For television to achieve its goal as an educational medium So that's what public broadcasting was about was the the promise of this television Being educational and quickly Not being educational as soon as it was I mean that you know the original investors in in ABC NBC and CBS included United Fruit Company, right? So the Mainstream TV the networks were not were designed as Money-making ventures even though the technology just much like the internet was touted as an educational opportunity so public broadcasting was about Trying to realize that dream of mass public education Which is different than the public access dream, which is media in the hands of the people to make changes in their community direct direct action So I think that's important You know this There are a lot of examples, but my favorite I have two favorite examples of CCTVs impact and they're a little old But that's because I was doing a lot of production at that time and the one has to do with the waterman takeover so there was a time when There was big disagreement still is about how UVM was investing its money and there was encampments on the green and Then ultimately to prove the point and Megan a work can say a lot more about it because she was involved in this as a student We were a little older. The students took over the president's office and occupied it and It was you can imagine pretty huge deal and they boarded themselves up in the president's office and it was a Sunday and Nat air who I worked with Went there with his camera and talked to the students and videotaped them and interviewed them He even got footage of them on the inside because they gave it to him and He put this program on it was a Sunday morning. He edited it and he put it on TV so maybe it's Saturday Sunday and By Sunday night by Monday morning People had watched this because we repeated our stuff three four times within a 24-hour period So by the time the Burlington Free Press came out with its headline on Monday morning Many many people had actually seen what was happening in a way that the headlines and the news account Wasn't going to really reveal and it also revealed the point of view of the students Not just the point of view the administration So I love that example because that was a portable video camera on the spot not mainstream news telling a story including different voices and Preempting I mean remember this is pre internet. So it wasn't as if there were images of this You can just make it up on your phone and find you and students in president's office No, there was no other way to get the information other than the newspaper or the or the news Outlets but they didn't broadcast on Sunday nights. They didn't have Sunday night shows. So that was an exciting example The other example, which is my favorite example is which changed me was the first deployment to Iraq and going to the National Guard deployment and that and I were very anti-military as you know as most activists are and were and Just pissed about the war in Iraq and why we were going and so we went to the first all these people in the National Guard were getting on planes and going over to Iraq first group and Their families were there and they were being sent off. It was a send-off and there are people in their uniforms hugging and crying and I mean it was one of the most emotional things I've ever seen and of course I'm like very snarky. I have to say it's like so you think it's worth it to go to war, you know, like your husband might die and Really was a little rude. I have to say But I was so sobered and I was so made so humble by this experience because I understood the ambivalence that people have between filling fulfilling their duty defending the country and being frightened and worried and Missing their family and fear and everything that's mixed up and That the whole issue of going off to war is not black and white But I didn't know that at the time and I understood it by making that video the first time and when we put it on the air I would say we had Literally 250 people wanted copies of it, but we made them You know again, you didn't go on online and watch it right you had to actually come and buy a tape and We made many many copies of that send off for the families It was pretty affecting life-changing You know, I mean kind of through the process of starting to embark on the the documentary You know, I'm getting more familiar with the archive and in these moments You know sitting down and shooting long interviews But just from my own perspective, you know, I brought up Essentially the the Collins that happened you know during the black black lives matter protests and Those going, you know, I mean remember how they went up to in the morning They had to break and then they had to come back the next day the city council city council public hearings Yep public public forums public forums and that was and that was like oh, you know That was a moment that I felt like okay Yeah, I feel like you know Time to get involved and Then you know and I think Dan Hagen says this and I don't know where he says it He might have said it in the photo lounge chemicals or in an interview I saw but he said something along the lines of you know, I maybe don't watch CCTV or watch every city council meeting, but I am Very thrilled that it is there and documented, you know I mean so I so I think it's it's that That knowing of Transparency knowing that it's there. It was really compelling for me to kind of to get involved and then you know, I think the other thing is like I grew up You know listening and paying attention to certain Storytellers, you know like the French New Wave was always big for folks that that are you know learning about film history and And a big influence was Chris Marker and Chris Marker is not well-known for doing things like getting cameras and going To essentially really Crummy labor situations giving the tools of communication to the people that were in these situations and kind of single-handedly behind the scenes Nameless, you know helping people kind of create these like labor revolutions And so I think some of that selflessness Around it and I was interesting to kind of hear you start to talk or you know ask early on about you know as creators sometimes were It's hard to tow that line between being selfish and want to do the creation But also creating space for other people to step in and I think some of the the work that that I was able to do with the Vermont Folklife Center and going around to K through 12 schools and helping teachers also teach this stuff and Teach media literacy stuff isn't a great word teach media literacy and You know a lot of that was compelled because I was fortunate enough to learn these histories and realize that you know Sometimes making space for other people is is just as much The idea of promoting change than than being the change maker yourself So and when you think about the body of work, I mean back to the question about creating I mean I I feel that our 38 years and 40,000 programs. I Feel like I helped create that yeah, right? I mean so when I think of myself as a creator I think about that work the work of other people that we help make possible and I I mean it's not that I take credit for it, but I feel like I Accomplished yeah, I have accomplished my goals of the as a creator by Enabling other people to create on such a vast scale. Yeah, because it's a vast scale It is it's epic and you know today these 25 community 24 community media centers in Vermont are producing 10,000 hours of programs a year You know and I incredible and I think a big miss mark for me Upon growing up, you know, it's like I was like very art focused. It was like creation for kind of creation's sake and And and really pushing a kind of a storytelling agenda for entertainment aspect But something that I've learned a lot about is the the legislation around all this and and and the need And I think you said it well too, which is like The promise of the internet to be this great democracy democratizing tool and just like letting it run its course and of course it's it's been, you know Commercialized to an extent where it's like no, no, no, it didn't fulfill its promise because people didn't fight for legislation and regulation and and of course like fine lines the toe, but but I think the point remains is is is you know a Missed mark for me in a blind spot until I was maybe mature enough to see it was was this idea that that It's it's far-reaching right And there's a lot of ways to go about it from individual stuff to mentoring people To getting involved in education To getting involved with these stations So, you know Very pointedly we we've talked a lot about, you know, what is change and I think more appropriately It's it's a lot about making sure That you realize all the tools in the toolkit, you know, yeah, so and and also I think When you talk about the advocacy piece You know when you read about what makes an effective organization, you know habits of highly effective organizations There there are few Habits, but one of them is that you think about the broader field not just your own organization and When I read that when I was learning more about nonprofit practice, I thought oh, right We did that intuitively because you have to have an advocacy agenda I mean in a way all of this work that I could take credit for as a co-creator That's pushing the advocacy agenda You can't go to a policymaker unless you have 10,000 hours of content a year that's behind you and make a point To a legislator because legislators understand because they come in here and they're on the air And they know what we did during COVID to keep local government going those ex that cut that actual making is What pushes the agenda to make sure there's continuing funding for the work and Everyone who's in community media really in the leadership has to take an advocacy role because It's not as if people didn't haven't been advocating for the last 25 30 years around the Internet They have been right, but the the economic order and the structure of Campaign finance is such that We are really struggling To pry open the door and keep it from shutting the metaphor around the change that we're trying to make is About keeping the door from shutting because the forces of capital and the forces I would say of darkness are so active and so well funded that We as community activists are really pushing as hard as we can but the countervailing forces of commercialism and money-making are Extremely powerful So I feel like if we could just keep the door from shutting entirely we could keep our foot in it that is success and That everyone has a role to play in that and Creating continuing to use these resources is as important a role as the people who are going to advocate Before the legislature and before Congress because that makes a case for why this is important and why it's needed but man, it's a hard fight and We have you know, we we're we're a whole we're barely holding on because you can't regulate the Congress has said You can't require public benefits of the Internet You can require them a broadcast TV. You can require them a cable TV You can require them a telephone companies, but they're all moving in the Internet and there's no public benefits required there That's coming straight down from Congress That is a very hard road to tell you have got to be very creative to figure out what authority states and cities and towns have To tax the Internet for public purposes in order to figure that out That's what we're doing now, but our hands are pretty much tied. Yeah, and that's not going to change anytime soon I'm optimistic, but I'm just saying it's it's this is this is a slog. Yeah, this is a hard slog Yeah, and I you know, I'd like to think that we'll have accomplished it by the time I die But it's just gonna keep we just have to keep at it. There's no you just have to keep at it Yeah, I mean media as a whole and the Internet is just Always an evolving growing Beast machine so I think it's hard to predict what's Like we can't we can hope but like can we predict like we don't like Yes, no depends what like Is that like does that go into like net neutrality? Does it go into like just like freedom of speech more so does it like do like tax the Like the web the hosting services or like Do you just like add a tax to like the people that are paying for internet or do you just Like it's just a thing and it's like what makes sense. What doesn't make sense. How is this possible? How is it not possible? And I think that that's definitely an interesting food for thought but also it goes into the whole thing of like The like putting media into the hands of the people and stuff and it's like hearing what other people think and like what the community thinks It's like what the community thinks should happen how they think it should be handled their perspective on it And that I think it'll definitely be interesting to see how as we move away from cable or the society I mean, we all know that less people Are paying for cable more people are canceling cable subscription So it's definitely gonna be interesting in the next 20 or so years as we move towards the streaming online society and away from the live Small creators almost So definitely be well, I don't think we'll move away from the smoke. No, they'll never Never yeah, that's why they're around exactly the infrastructure the delivery systems Changing and the financing model is changing and the whole idea of public benefits and and and being it's Is it's challenged by the economic order the idea that there's public property or green space that you can then say because I'm letting you String my cable in this public property. You have to pay a Fee back to the community That's what's under threat. I mean look at parks. Look at open space. I mean all of it's under Siege and so I think the thing you can predict is that capitalism Unchecked is going to devour our public spaces Yeah, and that's the work that we have to do and that might be why Vermont public decided to call itself Vermont public. I mean I'm not sure I'm not a hundred percent about the name, but it makes a point You know, which is that this is a gotta remain a public resource. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I Definitely think it's important. I mean so many people across the state Are always listening to it or we'll reference it in their morning coffee at the coffee shop like oh, did you hear so-and-so's interview? On Vermont public or did you hear that one thing or did you know that this is happening? I heard it on VPR from on public now and I definitely think that I Definitely think that that's the most important part is that it's public, right? Accessible and it's there right and it's the same with CCTV is that and our future actually is hinged together Even though we do different things so part of we know when you look ahead part of our future is working together with Institutions like Vermont public in a much more proactive way than we have and that's exciting because they're willing to do that And that's part of how we protect our collective interests is by standing together. I Mean I think another thing to make note of and not to kind of derail this but like there's something about this that is you know Community media is being the process of it is just as important as the product exactly You know and I think we get really product folks as focused as a society But the idea that if you can let people know that there's alternative methods and approaches To something that they're inherently engaging with whether it's you know Through a phone through entertainment, but if they can see alternative modes and and get exposed to new processes particularly in depth long-form Conversations as well as you know Making sure that that everyone has a seat at the table that there's a place to come You know how you engage with people is equally as important as what you get out of them And there's a lot being pushed right now in the documentary community around extractive storytelling So all this is gonna kind of really bubble up And I think that you know I'll kind of pause at that point But but I want to make note that the processes of which we were creating is just as important as the outcome. Yeah Harrison why is community media? Interesting and important to you why have you chosen to pursue this Well, I know but I don't know I've taken a bunch of class with Miles listen to a lot of what his opinions what he has to say about it and I mean, I'll align with it. Otherwise, I wouldn't be taking classes with him anymore But I think it's just Interesting to look at it from a different perspective of I've always thought of it as like media movies all that it's like a Business type thing rather than an organization. I mean my grandfather Before film dissipated he Blanky on the name of the studio, but it was one of the places in New York where they would develop the Develop everything send it off and produce it and I mean So I grew up with my dad telling me those stories of Him working in the mail room or him be against a little kid Just going to work with his dad and going to their viewing room and just watching the movies before they came out or Getting like meeting like John Lennon at like because they were recording their tour So that like kind of sparked my interest in like the arts and film and then once I got to VM And I have like a non-linear path kind of I during COVID I took a year off completely and then came back after COVID and So that kind of gave me a new perspective on everything I freshman year I got really sucked into like the UVM crunchy trying to fit that mold and then went home to southern Vermont and Was working landscaping landscape construction and like pretty blue collar doing caretaking stuff and the total opposite of the environment here And so that really showed me like the importance of community Like in that small town because like everyone knows everyone it's I go I take the trailer out to get some stone I would be at the pit where I know him because he's my friend's dad or Someone's cousin or they were the contractor or the tree person that did this to my house So I think my like interest and passion for film media and then combining with like my experiences there and then My like my parents how they raised me. I mean my mom is a yoga instructor. So it's Very different than most people's upbringing So it was always more of the holistic and and path view So I think it was just the it just kind of like came together where it was like the community is important and Showing that like the documentary side. It's not just the money or like telling a cool story it's telling the story of the people and like what the people want to say and I think That's why it sparked my interest. It's just Like kind of research but more of like the observational research where I'm like Like let me do something and see what happens or let me give you this and see what you do with it And I think that it just kind of all just similar to how you said it like forming CCTV I kind of just came together in the right way to form My views on it and my interest in it. So I think it just Naturally came to be Well, it's a thrill it's actually a thrill to talk to both of you because it you know for from my perspective It shows the long the long game on what we're doing into the future because For your whole life, you'll be affected by this work and this perspective And who knows what you'll accomplish and that you're creating the next generation Working with the next generation of people and framing this in a way that's unique to the times that you've grown up in and I I just that is extremely exciting for me. Yeah, I mean multi-generational transmission, right? It's it's pretty great to have To be able to do that, you know and again that that process is a lot of fun Makes me want to cry actually fills my cup Warms my heart. Yeah, bless your heart All right. Well, I think that is all we got for today So thanks for listening. Thanks for watching and hopefully we'll have some super Cool guests next time to talk. That'll be great. And thanks Lucas. Yeah, thank you Luke and Jordan in the control room heard Mitchell a wonderful production crew go team