 You know usually the audience waits until after we say something to applaud. So this is fantastic. Thank you very much My name is Andrew McAfee. I teach at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston And I have the really pleasant duty this afternoon of first of all welcoming all of you to this session on Gaps on minding the gap when it comes to skills and employment. I'd like to thank you all for coming out today And being part of this I'd also like to thank the World Economic Forum for sponsoring this event and the team here today That got us all into this room and and made things so smoothly organized Okay, this is the friendliest audience I've ever seen and I have the feeling that And I have the feeling that all we can do is ruin things from here on in So we're going to leave now. Good. Thank you very much Let me let me explain what we're going to try to do here I am going to spend about the first 45 minutes of our time together being selfish and asking our panelists the questions that I want to ask them I'll introduce them in a minute after that we want to open it up for interaction with all of you So as we are as we're talking during the first piece of time Please be thinking about the questions that you would like to ask our panelists And if I could pose a challenge for you as you're thinking about that question Please think about how to make it as clear and as brief as possible and please think that Think about how to actually make it a question Fair enough We are streaming out live on the web. We are on okay enough with the applause. This is too much We are streaming out live on the web we are on swiss TV which gives us an interesting opportunity We are also going to be accepting questions over Twitter So you have the option if you'd like ask a question and just use the hashtag Open forum if you have no idea what I just said just raise your hand, okay? so let me start by introducing our panelists the gentleman next to me is Stefan Lovian and Usually when you're the moderator you get fairly extensive notes Biographical notes about your panelists this one just says Prime Minister of Sweden So I had to do a little bit of homework in advance It turns out that Stefan started his career as a welder Then worked as a trade union representative and then became a politician in Sweden next to him as a fellow Swede Jonas Prisig who a year ago took over as the CEO of the manpower group after a long career In many countries across a couple different continents manpower is a very large-scale human resource Company based in the United States next to Jonas as Ellen Ray a Economist educated in both France and America has worked both in France and America at some fantastic Institutions and I at the risk of embarrassing her I need to point out that a little while back She was named the outstanding European economist under the age 45 If I can just interrupt the moderator right away, so I'm actually not in America. I'm at the London Business School I'm sorry, and now and now she's posted in London. Thank you for that next to her is a fellow London you live in London Geneva you live in Geneva I'm gonna stop talking now Next to her is someone else. I know someone else with British experience guy writer is the director general of the international labor Organization which is based in Geneva a guy's career has been primarily working with trade unions in many different ways and The same is true of our final panelist Bernadette se goal who is the elected general secretary of the European trade union Confederation based in Belgium who has an extensive career working in the labor movement both in different industry verticals and different Geographies so we have a wonderful mix of government industry and labor on the panel today And I think we're gonna have a very lively session unless I completely fail at my job To to get things off to a start I want to ask each of our panelists to answer exactly the same question and the question relates to the title of our session Which is mind the gap when it comes to skills and employment I'd like to ask each of you to talk to us about what aspect of the gap You're most focused on you're most concerned about right now and then very briefly What are your proposed solutions or your favorite remedies for closing that gap for fixing the situation? Stefan can we start with you, please? Absolutely first. Thank you very much. It's it's a privilege to be here with you and with the other panelists Can I start by just saying that that we need to acknowledge and talk much more about gaps in general and inequality in general? we just read an OECD report that states very clearly that inequality is is an obstacle to growth and and development and equality Will on the contrary contrary enhance growth. So equality is good in itself. That's a good starting point Now gaps and inequalities when I when I think about it of two two dimensions First is work to have a job as a grown-up if you don't have a job if you don't earn your income That's a problem. It it limits your freedom as an individual and of course it limits your freedom In in your life. So job is number one And that is also why I'm focusing a lot and my government focusing a lot on not least youth Unemployment to get the young people the young adults into job. I've experienced myself just one month unemployment But I can clearly remember the last week of that month was not fun Now we have young people going unemployed for years Which is a catastrophe for the individual and also for the society So what one thing we would do focus on as an answer to a question is is a get people to job Not least the young people make sure they have a promising future So we will introduce during the matter period something we call a night today Guarantee meaning that the government will guarantee any individual every individual below 25 years age An education if you're unemployed job Education on the job practice or a combination of that Whatever it helps the individual within 90 days because we want to show the young people there is a future The other perspective of gaps and inequality is is connected to jobs and work and that is education education will be even more important in the future and if you want to be competitive on Innovation and good products and and not low wages, which we do not want to compete in that's not our segment at all So and in if you want to be able to do that as a society you must make sure that every individual gets Proper education and training And it's also very important for the individual because that strength and your possibilities on the labor market We can see today just for to give an example in Sweden People between 20 and 24 years of age Without the secondary school Their unemployment rate is 35 percent 35 and I believe every day I say it won't get better It will get worse So this means that we have to allocate a lot of resources Into the school at the early stages to make sure that every boy and girl Reaches the adult age with good competence with good knowledge. So that is Sorry, so that is that is crucial so so work and education will be the two focuses and then we The the foundation for that is is also that we need to make sure that everybody Because if we really stand up for for the equal value, we must make sure that everybody not just almost everybody everybody will have must have that chance and To conclude now to final is to do my final point is one of the most important Perspectives right now that we have raised this morning is the gender equality perspective So that we make sure that both boys and girls Men and women get the same possibilities Jonas So just before coming to Davos I was in in the Middle East and I was working with a an NGO that is focused on preparing children For the future workforce and and I agree with the Prime Minister Clearly if you look at the situation in the Middle East education is going to be very very very important But of course, you know a lot of the reasons that we have such high youth employment is that there's tremendous Demographic growth in parts of the world and every year millions and millions of young people come on to the labor market And there's not enough growth But when you look at the individual labor markets, it's interesting from a manpower group perspective We we see this across more than 80 countries. There are similarities between the evolution and the reason there are similarities is that Economies are have cycles economic cycles and right now some countries have better cycles than others So economic cycles affect labor markets and drives better employment or worse employment But at the same time and there are structural drivers Technology is one demographics is one They're really affecting the labor markets exactly at the same time and as we look at labor markets and what employers are looking for They are looking for individuals with the right skills So they are work ready not only graduate ready But they can be brought into companies and then there are large parts of the workforce that unfortunately don't have the right skills Even when there is growth so you can find yourself in in paradoxical situations where you have You know in countries where unemployment is high and employers are saying it's difficult to find jobs and and that Structural divide is by and large based on access to work-ready skills And that you have to have the ability to educate your workforce and prepare them Now of course you would say and many of you or some of you might say later on when we have the question time Yeah, but okay So that's that's interesting and that's a structural change and that'll take a while to evolve itself in the short term What is it that you can do to address this issue and from our experience both with employers as well as policy makers and governments where we see That that where we see examples of solutions that work is that you have to bring Educational institutions policy makers and governments as well as companies together And ensure that young people as early on as possible get exposure to work life either be it through apprenticeships or As part of the initiative that you refer to a prime minister I believe is part of the youth guarantee approach in the European Union's to guarantee an Exposure to working life or an experience to working life So you are better prepared and you have a better understanding when growth is sufficient so that employers are are taking action and In and hiring in greater numbers So the gap that I'm very focused on personally as well as professionally is the skills gap and the importance of education And the importance of also working together in new ways because we are in a very Disruptive moment where you have cycles impacting at the same time as structural changes and we have gone through these times in the past When the steam engine Revolution happened a lot of people lost their jobs and after a while a lot of people Got their jobs back but in different areas and sectors and we believe that We are exactly in this kind of moment of transition when we come back when we look back at this period 30 years from now We will say this was a time of great disruption and and History will judge us on our ability to navigate this part because history also tells us that in the end the innovation and the drive That you get from technology benefits Mankind creates more innovation and creates a lot of growth that many people can benefit from but we are right now at a time of great disruption and transformation and also difficult economic circumstances in many parts of the world Thank you, Ellen So I'm gonna build exactly on what my neighbor just said There are indeed the cyclical determinants of unemployment So this business cycle that was just discussed and let me just talk a little bit about about that here for a moment About Europe so as you may know the unemployment rate in Europe right now is still 10% so this is a lot in in Spain we are still 25 percent unemployment and I think in Europe what we have is actually and mistakenly a Sign of very low weak aggregate demand in the economy Which is driving this short-run and employee fluctuation in unemployment on top of these long-run trends That were also alluded to by by my neighbors So let me expand a little bit on this short-run cyclical fluctuation in unemployment in Europe So besides this quite this small unemployment figures which have been you know with us for for quite a while now because we have been in crisis For for long since 2009. It's a long. It's a long crisis Output has been depressed and we also see that aggregate demand is very weak because we see that in the inflation numbers You may know that the UR area has been in deflation in December and this is big news So if you if you have very low inflation Negative inflation and if you have also high unemployment that is a sign of very weak aggregate demand So from that point of view cyclical unemployment is in my view an important problem in Europe right now So what do you do about it? So what do you do about it? So one of the thing that needs to be done about it was Done yesterday as Mario D'Haghi announced some quantitative easing policies at the European Central Bank So this is one way of of trying to increase aggregate demand is via loser monetary policy But then it cannot work by itself It won't solve the problem in the long run by itself You need not only monetary policy to be loose You also need a bit more a bit less fiscal austerity a bit more fiscal impulse at the European Union level a bit more fiscal space investment there and What you also need are reforms in Europe so the problem we've you know doing reforms and So there are many examples on great reform some of them were just discussed some of them are deflationary So when you you have to do reforms of a labor market in particular you want to try to do them in environments where aggregate demand is not too depressed and We have this issue right now in Europe that we we have had various, you know a lot of austerity in fiscal policy Until recently and and maybe still too restrictive monetary policy and Timid reforms so we have we have to get the three things together in order to get out of the of the current issues Now this is the cyclical part of it and then there's all the trend part which have to do with this fascinating data that in particular so Toma Piketty put together so you might have seen these long-run data on capital Income ratios, so the capital stock in countries was about three times income in the 1950s. It's now six time incomes and if you look at Capital share that is to save a share of income that goes to capital as opposed to labor It has been trending up as well so one way of reconciling this this long-run trend with what is happening in In the technology is to say well what we're witnessing is indeed some kind of technological shift that makes Humans more substitutable with capital. This is one way of thinking about these Piketty numbers is to say, you know We are having technologies now that makes human More similar to machine in some sense, so we can do more things with robots We can we can do more things, you know, we can have cashiers which are automatized Etc. Etc. So this is something that that we are witnessing and indeed it is it is an interesting challenge It is an important challenge. We saw technological innovation in the past At some point, you know, there are other sectors that that growth So first you might see loss in jobs, but then something else brings up innovation comes up The steam engine was was mentioned. It didn't lead, you know, first it led to job destruction But then something else happened So the question is are we gonna see that also this time around what's what's gonna happen and let me leave it At that no give us the answer I think this is precisely a good point to discuss among all of us and I will come back later I can't wait guy. Well, thanks very much. It's great to be on this panel and before this public I'm not gonna repeat what I've heard already because I agree with absolutely everything that's been said just to make perhaps four or five Quick points. The first is we have extremely high levels of unemployment in the world and the bad news is that despite Recovery so-called taking place in growth Unemployment is going to get worse before it gets better our forecasts of a increasing unemployment Secondly skills and skill shortages and skill gaps are a part of the reason for that unemployment But they're only a part of that story Just take an example and we've just heard about the levels of unemployment in in Spain and for young people It's still 50% It's very difficult to believe that that level of unemployment is because of inadequate skills amongst young people in Spain Firstly because this is the best educated generation Spain has ever produced and Secondly that those Spaniards and there's more and more of them who go to work in other countries Germany for example a finding jobs because they do have skills that are needed So this is part of the story, but there's a lot else as we've heard from other speakers to the story as well Secondly and I concur with particularly what's been said we know it's a fact that there is a Significant mismatch between the skills that employers want and need and the skills that are offered by people coming on to the labor market This mismatch is a reality And we have to do what we can to overcome it But we have to I think try to work out what is behind this so-called Mismatch some people say our educational systems need to be re-engineered I mean to put it in crude terms we need less art historians and more engineers more digital engineers You can argue about that one, but it's not the whole story We know that educational underperformance starts not at university not at secondary school not at primary school It starts before kids get to school in the developing world You're talking about the basics of malnutrition children growing up already Intellectually impaired because they don't get enough food and they don't get the right hygiene. This is demonstrated Secondly and it relates to the growing inequality in our societies the evidence is there at a certain level of inequality in our societies Educational performance becomes related to your social standing and if you come from the bottom of the ladder at the beginning of your life It's more and more difficult to climb up So educational access to education and skills is becoming more and more Compartmented and reinforces inequality makes the unemployment problem worse not better So these issues of inequality and skills I think come close together. I Think one way forward because and you've asked us to actually give some answers not just lament the problems Is trying to tackle this mismatch by actually getting our educational systems and our the actors in our working life closer together and the classic formula and I use it by way of example is Apprenticeships now apprenticeships are one thing that Switzerland does really well If you have the levels of unemployment that you have in Switzerland a large part of that is down to the fantastic Operation of the Swiss apprenticeship system. I put a child through it. It works And other countries do the same But when we try to generalize this experience, we run up to objections, you know in my country I'm British as as you mentioned and you know apprenticeships was something my father's generation had an opportunity for not my Generation they've gone and we're told it's too expensive. It's putting too big a burden on enterprises I actually saw a very interesting study in Switzerland The average return for a three-year apprenticeship In Switzerland to the company a direct cost-benefit analysis is a five percentage Return on investment for a three-year apprentice seven percent for a three-year apprenticeship five percent For a four-year apprenticeship. It makes pure cost-benefit business sense. We need to invest in Training not just consider it a cost to be borne by employer or otherwise There is a theory as well that employers are getting far too picky far too demanding That they say they go to the labor market. They don't find the exact skill sets they need and that sometimes employers I don't think it supplies in Switzerland a less willing to take up their part of the responsibility in skill formation They have a part of the job to do and that leads me to my last point, which is Most of us people of my age have to get out of the idea that skills are something that you acquire at the beginning of your life It's something you have to acquire and renew Throughout your working life, and I think we have to work on the methods whereby skills are Refreshed and replenished throughout working life. We know it's a lifelong learning process But we have to put the mechanisms in place to live by that understanding and Bernadette, please. Well, thank you very much and before Speaking about how to cure the gap. I mean, how big is this gap? We have Very dramatic figures just before Davos the Oxfam Published reports saying that 1% of the people in the world owned 48% of global wealth and that was up 44% since 2009 On January the 6th the average Income from CEOs of the food see a hundred that person was Getting in one day as much as the average worker in UK for the whole year We have in Greece a situation where before the crisis one out of two people was in risk of poverty and now Sorry one out of five people was in risk of poverty and now it's one out of two in Spain we have a situation where the highest income went down 1% between 2007 and 2010 and the lowest income went down 14% So I think we we have to touch we have to feel how big the gap is That is not just something intellectual. It's something that is growing and It is it means also that it is taking from what is called generally the middle class And and increasing the the differences in society, which is obviously Terrible a terrible news Now my second point would be why the gap Why is this gap growing? I mean our answer is first of all that we have to look that Where the gap is growing more? It's in the countries where the markets are actually left very free to do what they want and Where the this gap is growing less. It's when you have More collective bargaining more social protection more public services and you know, I we we have Swedish Prime Minister here and I don't think he would Say the country so, you know, this gap is also the result of a certain type of policies Just a free market is not going to solve the problem What is the the solution as far as the trade union is concerned? Well, they are not one solution. There are many solutions, but the first one as far as We are concerned and specifically in Europe is just stop the austerity policies and invest for good jobs the austerity policies have driven down the wages and I'm not an economist and when I hear We have a weak aggregate demand my translation As a trade union is to say we want higher wages. That's exactly what it means. I suppose So we want higher wages. We want that people who are in the minimum Income should be able to buy more should be able to have a decent job what we want also is to have What we have had in the last years was a weakening of the bodies the institutions that are dealing with the social problems and and collective bargaining should be developed The what has happened in the last years was that there was an attack on these systems in in Greece for instance in Spain for instance the Recommendation from the EU Commission was rather to say, oh, you know Get rid of this Negotiation, this is not helping the economy and just just impose Your your wages and the fact that the wages should be going down What we need as well and I would like to insist on that is a fair tax system Taxation is a very big problem We are it is a scandal and I really hardly ever use that word, but in that case I do tax evasion tax avoidance tax fraud this is absolutely unacceptable that Companies would do that and would not contribute to the revenue of the country where they are producing and the result is that Normal people are paying the price for that so the tax question for us is taking a very very Important place. I would say certainly education Labor active labor market policies But to do that and we completely agree on that but to do that you need public money You can't do that if you have austerity policies I'm not going into the Quantitative easing although our position is very clear. Yes, it is a good thing So long as the bank are not keeping the money, but they are investing in the real economy So we are we we are in a position of wait and see whether this is going to be done in the next In the next month and of course we we hope so I would end by saying that Diminishing this gap and getting to more Equality is not just a moral question. It's an economy question when you And also a political question when you increase Inequalities in the world in a country In the end you will have social unrest because it is so unfair that you cannot manage a country Positively with such conditions. So that's my questions and that's my answers Fantastic. Thank you all. This is a fantastic discussion My only problem with it is that there's far too much agreement so far So so far that is about to change With my next round of questions and you know, so I'm going to start with you you run a large and very successful company that takes advantage of globalization of Global pools of labor many of which are at lower wage rates that helps large Enterprises outsource their work and engage in temporary work. There's a point of view that says you're part of the problem here Yes, no, so if you wanted to start to debate, you know The first thing I'll do is to disagree with some of the statements that you've made now We we are a large employer We employ about three and a half million people every year across 82 countries, but we're very local employers So we're active in many different Many different countries and we act as a entry point for many many job seekers we make the transition and the the match between the supply of people who are looking for jobs and The employers that are looking for talent that they can employ so as that we're we're a very efficient mechanism to ease people into work Roughly 30% of all the people that work with us are below the age of 25 More than 35 percent of the people that work with us were previously unemployed and after they have worked with our Organization, they are two-thirds less likely to be unemployed Why because they have work experience so clearly I see our own Organization manpower group as well as the industry as a whole as a very useful mechanism to ensure Fluidity between you know people who want to get into the workforce and give employers the confidence that they can hire These individuals and feel confident that they can then absorb them within their organization because in the end More than 40% of the people that work with us will be employed by our client companies So that's that's where the difference that's less than the hundred percent that used to be employed by those client companies Well, it is it is a it is a clear Competitive Dynamic that companies have to adjust to changing market conditions If you believe that companies and organizations can stay the way they are and compete the way they competed 20 years ago You are not really understanding and seeing what companies and organizations go through So for companies to be successful and let's be clear Companies generate growth and when they generate growth they generate jobs. It is the generator of jobs No employment growth can come without having successful Organizations operating within a country be they small Entrepreneurial be they medium-sized or be they big and global Companies generate jobs and they want to be successful and when they are successful Many people can benefit from from that success now having said all of this and Helen Pointed this this out in Europe in particular growth has been reasonably anemic Although the average numbers normally don't as with a as with everything average doesn't tell you any real Insight because some countries have done extremely well in the last couple of years like the UK Holland and Sweden is improving as well For instance and where some countries have had a very tough time have done a lot of reforms there an employment has gone down Spain even Greece has had an employment come come down from horribly high levels to still Unacceptably high levels on certainly youth employment being high. So growth is a prerequisite but a lot of the focus is to move from Job security to employability because we are in a world that is very very dynamic and Organizations have to adjust all of you are using technology in different ways That is driving a lot of change both from a consumer server from a buying behavior perspective So some industries are having a very difficult time of the changes and some industries are being a crate and I'm being very successful And we're we're in a moment where a lot of new things are happening So some things are going very well Some are not and organizations need to be able to move and adjust their organizations to be successful But at the same time you have to do that Of course in a way that that that helps those that are affected and having now been in divorce for for all of This week I can tell you that this is something that we as employers are very aware of we know that this is not somebody else's problem We have a responsibility to participate in this evolution and help lots of people along the journey because Because they need help and we have an obligation to do so Bernadette it looks like you wanted to react to that. Yeah, I did want to react because The what do we believe is that job security is not a bad word and and and that The development of the type of jobs where you work for a week you work for two weeks You have a job for a month is not giving young people and and other people the perspective which is needed For them to have a decent life So I we don't think that the solution for the future is just to say, you know Have a precarious job. We are very worried by the increase in Temporary agency work, which is cannot replace the normal Working arrangement between an employer and and and the worker now, you know I I have had a lot of dealings with employers in in temporary Agencies and there is a large variety of Employers in this in this field some more serious than others But the the basic point I want to make is that why do we consider that job security is bad? It isn't Job security is giving people a perspective If you have a job for three months, are you going to buy a house? You aren't Can you have children? Well, it's very difficult. So I I want to change the view that that by Having you know saying job security is something of the past. I don't think we should go along this line Prime Minister This is very important. How do we tackle the the upturns and the downturns in the economy? It's one of the crucial things because we've had a situation for many years where we're different Countries different economies Developed in different ways one continent going up and the other down and on the average it was okay But since our economies is more and more connected to each other The these up turns and downturns would be probably bigger so we need to address it and and of course, I believe firmly that We cannot have a situation where young people or older people for that matter More and more go into a temporary job that temporary job is the solution that that will be the normal thing Out of two reasons that's for the individual but also for the economy because you cannot contribute to the economy Where you're only only only have temporary job. It will be impossible but at the same time there I mean there is a We need a discussion of how then how do we handle it? And I think we need Different ways many different ways to handle it. We need some some part of the solution will be temporary jobs It's not a new thing My concern is that it will be the new normal thing and I don't think that's Any individual wants it or the economy is not benefiting so temporary job could be one thing But you can also negotiate When you when you just you're working hours in the company, that's another solution You can you can of course hire people you just hire people and you don't you don't Sorry you you Use people from from let's say manpower or others also as a temporary and Part of the solution not the whole solution And this is important because we had an example in Sweden a company SKF a bit ball bearing manufacturing they discovered With only temporary jobs and sending way people and when when the upturn came they They needed the people so they grab them back and then send them away grab them back That was not a good way of doing business So they negotiated a contract where they they said well, let's face it We need to adjust the working hour just within a frame that was good for the employees good for the company And we can also use training because in the downturn we need to prepare for the upturn So let's use some training during the hour instead of getting rid of people we can use a part of the to train and In that perspective, I'm also prepared as a politician to discuss with the social partners Okay, what can we do as a society to contribute to that? So we we can negotiate and agree upon on the three of the social partners with the politicians How do we handle that situation in such a way that it's good for our companies? They can stay competitive, but also and that is most important thing the people Because what we're doing is we we're trying to reach a development that is good for the individuals the people This is this is not for for anything else the the all these Is meant to be good for everybody and that means that we make must make sure two things We must include the people The the management of the companies the politicians and the employees and we must make sure that the results of the wealth That we create also is distributed in a way that we believe is quite fair I want to pick up on your Insight that the different countries have been experiencing pretty different trajectories and I want to aim a question to our two representatives from labor and I want to try to inject a Stereotypically American perspective into this discussion because as we look at the kind I'm going to speak as that stereotypical American as we look at the the countries of continental Europe one of them and we're very similar societies in many ways one of the real differences is What I would call the different preferences for let's call them Labor protective policies or or very labor friendly policies we can talk about collective bargaining We can talk about job security There there are pretty sharp differences between the American approach and the continental Europe approach so it's worth asking how are those different approaches doing and in recent years the Economic growth rate in continental Europe has been quite close to zero the productivity growth has been Quite low in comparison to America There's a risk of deflation happening right now in continental Europe, which would be a dire situation These are not all recent phenomenon The the GDP growth and the productivity growth predate the great recession you the countries of continental Europe We're not doing as well in those areas and you could say that's a trade-off We're willing to make in the interests of protecting jobs and protecting wages So how are we doing on labor a job growth has been comparatively anemic in Europe compared to America unemployment rates have been higher And I was just checking out the data. We've talked about the hollowing out of the middle class That's been happening in every country in the industrialized world So you could make in the the stereotypical American argument might be something like You all are getting the worst of both worlds in continental Europe because on every measure that I've mentioned so far We're doing better in America Could you respond to that argument? I'm asking this particularly of Guy and Bernadette and then I'll go to Ellen Let me have a go and then you probably get a more intelligent answer from the next speaker I'm always I'm quite interested by this who's who's got the better system Europe US US Europe And over the time I've been sort of vaguely engaged in that debate the answer sort of tends to go Well, it's US I remember a long time in the 70s who are chasing after the US experience then all of a sudden It went the other way it felt that well the European model actually is working better So this debate always takes place in a specific context and the answers often come out in function of that specific Context but just to try and be more specific than that I do need to press you the numbers are not on your side. Well, look at the past for the past decent chunk of time Well, the United States which has made a good recovery in the recent couple of years It's also had four and a half million people withdraw from the labor force and the employment figures have to be read in that in that understanding We've had a state of the union address just last week Which I thought was quite notable by its inclusion of need for a minimum wage Need for stronger trade union legislation Need for better labor protection in many areas need for child care facilities because we don't have them Some of these things Europe scores very well upon. So let's take the wider look at the story Second point to make, you know, we tend to say the European labor market And if you look at the state of the labor market in Sweden or Germany It looks an awful lot different than it does in Greece or in Spain. That's just a reality It's not one country. Let me jump back on that with the exception of Germany The numbers in Europe are largely underwhelming the Swedish youth unemployment rate is above 25% and your overall unemployment rate I just checked it's about eight and a half. Yeah And I'll be the last person to understate the extent of the employment problem in Europe But they are different and the point I'm trying to make is you can learn lessons from the differences existing between national experience now when the The sort of the the bolt of lightning hit from a blue sky in 2008 and economies started collapsing all over the place Germany resisted in terms of its unemployment figures much much better than the United States You had an empty out of employment in the United States for the same fall of GDP in percentage terms Germany kept its people in work. The United States did not these are more complex stories Are there things in the United States you want to learn from yes But there are also some value judgments that come into play about acceptable levels of inequality About the extent of social protection in our societies and these are value judgments Which I don't think stand outside the hard numbers of the employment equation But need to be factored into them doesn't negate the argument but needs to be part of the argument I'm sorry, I want to bring you in to this discussion. You mentioned timid reforms so far in Europe in response to the crisis in which direction to the reforms need to be less timid in the direction of greater Protection and more labor-friendly policies or in the opposite direction So I think I first I want to emphasize one point that my neighbor made and this is the heterogeneity of the Experiences in Europe. So if you look at the Austrian labor market at the Swiss labor market the German labor market the Scandinavian labor market It's a very different story from Greece from Portugal from Italy from France So so first one is it's very important to remember that and in particular, you know Even in weak economic conditions And I've argued there is a serious aggregate demand problem But even in weak economic conditions there are countries which managed to deal better with youth unemployment And these are the countries that we have already largely mentioned And and I believe it's a matter of priorities. It's a matter of organization, it's a master of less wasteful use of Training money in various countries. So there are various things here that could be done to I had a lot of those countries went through significant labor market reforms before the recession before the recession and and also in those countries in particular where vocational training actually seems to work best There is a true discussion freeway discussion between educational authorities between business and and between the Between the trade unions, so I didn't quite hear an answer to my question I'm coming to that I'm coming to that so you so indeed So you are you are you are asking what kind of of reforms could help and I'm pointing out So, you know that there are countries which can do these things and in particular youth unemployment Which I believe is the central issue here because it's the human fabric because it's the future It's a human capital. So we all put a high value on that we say that and then we see countries doing a lot more So so there is here, you know, we to some extent, it's very stupid There are some countries who would need to just look at international experience and just copy the successful ones, you know and And and we would go a long way now another dimension I would like to throw in the discussion because I think it's also important is That we have to think a little bit to frame the debate a little bit more in terms of insider and outsider In the labor market. So what do I mean by that? I mean, of course having job security is wonderful Increasing wage is wonderful Especially for people who have a job already But then there are sometimes, you know There's a labor supply and the labor demand and there are trade-offs Between the people who cannot enter the labor market. So we don't have any of this We don't have a wage. We don't have and and the people who are inside already and we can lobby for these things So I think this is a dimension on which different countries make different arbitrage So, you know, take take my own country France. So very often in the debate. We hear yes It's true. We have youth unemployment, which is much worse than in Germany But in Germany, you know, they are working pause This is something we hear in France. Oh, yes, the UK is doing better on the labor market But, you know, there are some zero our contracts in the UK now fair points So but there is an arbitrage somewhere. There is a social discussion to be had which actually we don't have very often So I think this is this is something that should be much more in the open Please maybe yeah, maybe just Just just a few words also on on what I just heard Have the reforms worked I would say the reform work when you have a negotiation I have seen in Spain, for instance Reform that have been imposed and they didn't work They didn't they didn't The country maybe you've had Some Employment creation, but the the employment creation was creating working pause But I think yes in cases in many cases you need reform you need to have discussion But you can get through that only if you have a negotiation if you are involving the people who are Concerned and on the on the question of insider-outsider. I know that I'm speaking for trade unions here And I am very shocked every time I hear Trade unions are defending those who already have a job Well, yeah, we defend those we have it will have a job Yeah, but it is we are also in the process of Trying to find the solution for those who haven't got a job We are constantly trying to to find out the way out of an employment when we As a trade union we say we need a big investment plan This big investment plan is not going to favor those who already have a job but those who need to have a job and I think we have to and underline that because otherwise we are We are looking at organization like ours as just protecting those who are protected and I I just think that we have to think that you need to have democratic institutions like trade unions who are working to bridge the gap and and and so I I really want to say that Yes, we need to bring in the outsiders. This can only be done through these type of Industry relation Systems and through necessary reforms that are negotiated I'm going to ask one last selfish question and then let's throw it open to hear from everybody here My selfish question is about technological progress and how that's going to change the labor market. It's what I Study and the more I study it the more amazed I get at how fast Technology is progressing and to build on something Elaine said earlier. How many Jobs it can do that used to belong to human beings alone And I want to make a set of very very confident predictions about what's going to happen over the next Not too long chunk of time with ten years Let's say and as I've gone around and talked to the companies who are creating the future who the who are building these amazing Technologies and every discipline from artificial intelligence to robotics I've come up with a set of predictions about the next ten years that I am very very confident in so let me Rattle off a few of those within ten years A piece of technology will be a better driver than any human being on most roads in most conditions It will be a better pilot of every airplane in every condition It will be able to do most of the jobs in a factory cheaper than Chinese labor and probably cheaper than Bangladeshi labor. It will be the world's best medical Diagnostician it will be the world's best financial advisor. I don't think it will be the world's best novelist yet But I'm not sure how much if there's an entire economy's worth of demand for novelists as we move ahead So I could continue that litany, but I I hope that gives a taste of what's in store So my question for all of you. What are the people going to be doing in the economy of ten years from now? Maybe I'll take a stab at that and I and I think as part of of of the history You know this we've lived through these times before And and you're describing an area in era and a moment in time when there are many many things Changing and it's almost hard to imagine how much they will change, but we are living through this change and You know so lots of roles traditional roles will no longer exist over the next 10 to 15 years I have no doubt about that, but by the same token. I have equally no doubt about the fact that new jobs will be created I do think that You know the evidence so far shows that less jobs are being created Then are being destroyed or displaced right now, but over the long term You know my belief is that you will see this open up new avenues and unimagined avenues so far because the same Technology that renders things more efficient and productive also is a tremendous Distributor of wealth and health and opportunity so the average age the the the life spans of populations are Increasing very rapidly populations are becoming more healthy Income equality has actually improved Tremendously over the last 30 years if you look at the World Bank numbers from 1990 income Inequality was at 36 percent below this A dollar 25 cents measure of the world living in poverty and in 2000 it's 14 percent So there's no question that technology drives wealth provides opportunity But it is going to be a moment of the transition so new jobs will come up And I believe and we believe that manpower group that one of the things that are going to be enabled by Technology is entrepreneurship. So individuals being able to create their own futures their own businesses By leveraging technology and achieving scale of economies and tapping into knowledge and infrastructures in a way that was impossible before and And that's what's going to that's what we believe the future is going to look like a lot more in the future that you will have More entrepreneurs the world needs more entrepreneurs. They create the fastest job growth in in economies But it is going to be a big shift and I think that's the important thing to realize as we have our debate Sometimes the frustration is it's built on old Ideological paradigms and dogmas that are really projecting the way it was and I look ahead And I see a future that looks nothing like the way it was I look ahead and I see things changing and I see them changing fast So we have to bring all social parties because certainly this is an effort that is not One person or one company or one government This is a collective effort to be able to prepare the future in a new way because the future is Going to be different than the past and it's going to change at a very rapid pace So openness to that I think is so important as we face the challenges of the future Because it will require new approaches and new solutions so that everybody can participate in what these technological evolutions promise us Please Yes, so first of all, let me remind you that it's always very dangerous to make predictions in the technological side So let me recall Lord Kelvin in 1895 Royal Society President saying Heavier than air-flying machines are impossible very categorically So that was a mistake about Underestimated that's not the mistake. I'm trying to make well. Well, let me let's see because You are arguing that there's a lot of sustainability with the current jobs by the robots however by the same arguments since we cannot predict innovation and Since if you are right, so a lot of people will be extremely interested in you know the health sector the leisure sector They ought to be an enormous amount on innovation coming up in both sectors Provided, you know, there is an issue of wealth concentration, of course So it's actually an issue of ownership of wherever the income generated by these new technologies end up and whether it is Sufficiently spread out to generate growth in other sectors of the economy or not So this is I believe a key issue But there are no doubt tremendous opportunities first to just do these robots to Make them work then in these other sectors, which will darkness In my view will develop in the future given all the demographic trends that were pointed out So I think it's very hard to make those kinds of predictions Yes, I and I agree It's funny You made your case now let us talk it No, I think it's it's hard to make that kind of predictions as if Something is inevitable. You're right. Definitely. There will be changes. That's all we know tomorrow will not be as today or Yesterday, that's all we know But of course we can cope with change and I and I do believe that the technology Development will be be faster that we know If we just compared to 10 years ago So that what it means is that we have to also adapt and change ourselves in a faster pace And that is something we need to know that takes training The lifelong learning that that guy was talking about is very important. It's crucial crucial today will be even more important So so what what's what it's all about is to find these new jobs where it does that? Where do we allocate the the capital in the future? But there will be new sectors new jobs that would that will be Trying I'm very sure we we have seen this over the years that we can say that every 50 year you have a big technology technological shift every 50 year If you look back in the history now, we're talking about a digitalization But it's only it's not that in itself right now But it's the pace and the connecting of the different digital tools that we have. That's the difference but but we we if we just know how to I Think about the future and the history is important. It's an important perspective But I think we have to look ahead. Yes, but we have to learn also from the history What made us strong once and and for example in my country? Was with some very very important ingredients How do we handle an ongoing changing labor market for us? It meant the social partners need a good position We need strong social partners and as a prime minister. I'm very cautious to make sure we have strong Employers organization. I do mean that though I've been a trade unionist, but I mean it We need strong employers organizations We need strong trade unions because that know with with those strong social partners I know they can handle the labor market that is changing and they can do it in a flexible way. We need Education as I talked about earlier. We need the retraining and that is something that has been lacking in Sweden You brought up Sweden as a case with which is important to look what happened Well, what happened was that over the eight years The government the previous government they concentrated everything on reducing taxes Which could be good in some cases. Yes, let's be pragmatic sometimes. It's good to reduce taxes But it's not the only solution because it meant at the same time that the young people didn't get the training So we have all these young people now at the labor market without the secondary graduate they have a Too bad education and it doesn't help them if we we can reduce taxes to zero They won't get a job because the employers say you don't have the proper education so education is Definitely important and we need the social security and we need the innovation power to find these new jobs How do we develop our knowledge inside here our ideas? How do we get the entrepreneurs to develop those into new products? new services That can be sold not only in Sweden, but also in in a growing a market So now I agree with you the change will be even faster But I don't see it will end up in in an economy where people cannot work anymore. I don't see that happen Please before you throw it open. Yeah, it's one of your fellow Americans Andrew said the predictions really are difficult Particularly about the future and it's true You didn't mention if we can have machine prime ministers and machine economists in the future that would be interesting But look can't come soon enough But the point is the following we've been here before perhaps in our lifetime or not in our lifetime Every time you've had a transformational technological revolution You've had this debate is this going to be something that is going to improve our lives Make everybody potentially better off or is it going to actually put us all in the street and in trouble That was had in you know the steam engine revolution internal combustion engine The information technology so it's this I mean the classic phrase is these these gales of creative destruction Now is a creation going to outbalance the destruction? And I suspect it always looks more benign looking back than looking forward because these situations By their nature inculcate fear and worry a couple of points one I think history also shows us that trying to resist technological change is something of a futile Endeavour it won't happen even if we felt it will be easy to treat technology as our enemies. It's going to happen Perhaps with one caveat. We're going to have to guide technological Applications at least if we are to be serious about sustainability and environmental sustainability because technology has to guide us in in the right direction But in the end it seems to me That the answer to the question of whether this is going to be a win or a loss to put it in in very simple terms depends upon our capacity of societal Organization can we organize to manage Technological change because if on the face of it Technological change is liberating, you know Who wants to work at a lousy job if a machine could do it who wants to dig coal out of the ground if a machine can do it Who wants to stand on a production line if a machine can do it even who would want to weld if a machine can do it But then the question is what are what you just said this liberating experience has to be cashed in to the benefit of people and Our societies to say that's impossible is wrong to say it's a hell of a big challenge is right And the one thing I would worry about is I think at the current state of play We're not well prepared to undertake that task of organization because you know The tendency is leave it to the market don't intervene It'll all work out right if you leave it to the natural forces of the market and of technological Dynamics, and I think that's a mistake Last word before we open it up for questions. I'm afraid I'm afraid I just said what I wanted to say I mean, I don't know how big it's going to be. I think there will be big changes But my answer is don't leave it to the market. He just said it so on, you know All right, let's see what we want to talk about and please keep in mind My request slash challenge to keep it short and to make sure that it's a question. Where can we start? Let's start right here, sir. Can um, can you please identify yourself and then talk and I know do we have microphones? Please wait for a microphone My name is Stefan Volkwein from Solar Super State Association Question to his Excellency. Mr. Levin Within 15 years Germany created more than 1,500,000 new businesses by mainly decentralized photovoltaic installations Sun shines also in Sweden Do you think Sweden should use photovoltaics and wind power in a new and decentralized way to create more jobs and entrepreneurs Yes Absolutely, I'm I'm convinced that the the green perspective is Is the one that we should use? Working in in connection with the with nature and the environment is the best way to go ahead and that also goes for the energy sector and And and as long as we work within the frame that the nature gives us we have every possibility To develop new jobs and this is the possibility to to combine the efforts of Having a clean Environment with new jobs new technology what it takes in this case is not only a decentralized energy production. I mean you we can build windmills and solar we can we can Implement solar cells. Yes What it means though is that we need to to to also invest a lot and in connecting all these decentralized energy production sites Because right now we have in Sweden big we have a nuclear we have water power. These are the two major providers of electricity But once you go Decentralizing you must make sure that you can connect all these Suppliers and that's the real challenge and I guess we have the same kind of challenge in Germany We go over here at the question Yep, you just have the microphone, but since you're right there is it anyone nearby who would like to ask a question Anyone no no one in that part of the room is brave enough, but right down here again Stand stand up, please. Yep Does it work? Yes, my name is Sylvia gondmann and I would like to ask a question on behalf of all those young people here some of them sharing the accommodation where I am in and the question is To all of you what do you answer to a well qualified 20 years old female student? Who has written 60? Applications to get a summer internship of six weeks to work for free And she's been turned down all the time and she sits in front of you and she says you're my last hope Thank you anyone I need I think we need to challenge the employers of this case and also the the cooperation between employers Trade units with trade union functions and and the society We need to engage together and to fully understand that The young people is the future. This is a common labor force and it is stupid not to not to use All the talent that we have that is why we want to have a contract between the society and the business community To make sure that everybody gets a Place in the labor market that is why we are introducing this night-to-day guarantee Because I'm sure there is an employer out there that won't also to take take full advantage of the skill of the later young later that you you referred to and and Although there's another perspective which I raised in the beginning though that we need to look into and that is if we know that We have structural discrimination on the labor market. I'm not sure whether that's the case What you're referring to but we do have that and that is something that we have to address to make sure that all boys and girls Men and women have the same kind of opportunity, but I think once again We have to decide as a community Whether what's the the what's the future and I'm sure that we can provide if we talk together if we cooperate The three partners the society the social partners together We find the solutions to make sure that everybody gets a job because we need it. We need it Let's face it. We will get an even stronger economy if everybody gets a chance. So absolutely I'm gonna require at least one other response to that great question and my my response would be we can't do better Because there there is no doubt that you know the the young people of today are the ones whether it's for You know structural reasons that young people are excluded from easy ways of getting into the The workforce or whether the companies just don't have the openings that there are needed as Organizations as employers we can do better in making sure that we have a closer link with those that come out of school So that they get the work experience that they need because that may well be the issue No work experience hundreds of people applying to the same company and some have work experience be it in the summer during before or they've been exposed to a program or training and There is a competition so you're competing with other individuals and in some cases a lot of individuals who want to get in To the same company and experience the same thing So it's a very tough thing for each each individual and I'm sure that we can do better both as Companies as well as society at large at facilitating that process Well very briefly I have been in that situation and I can tell you I feel terrible When this happens, and I cannot solve all the problem on an individual basis It's a more general question, but what I want to say is that we don't think that this free internship where young people are just You know spending a few weeks sometimes more and saying okay, I'm not going to take any money from your company This is not right We we don't think that this very often they do replace normal workers and we think it is not right So we are worried about the development of this Internship which is which are costing Zero or hardly any money to the to the company and we are doing our best In fact to structure them and to to find the solution, but the the generally This is the problem of unemployment of young people and unemployment of highly qualified young people very very quickly And I'm not trying to escape the question. We would say no we take internships. We refuse unpaid internships We pay our internees as a matter of principle and we train them as a matter of principle and responsibility That's not really where your question is pointing and I think everybody's answered the question I think we all have to accept a collective failure Given the levels of Unemployment of young people if you're under 25 you are three times more likely to be unemployed than another adult That is a massive political collective failure We seem to have put aside the notion that full employment is the basic priority of our societies and it's a It's an absolutely Essential Redirection of policy that we all need to contribute. It's easy to say it's a great deal more difficult to do So I'm not trying to offer any easy answers But we need to put it right top in front of our objectives And I would like Davos this world economic forum to reflect that call If someone from the WEF team has a question from Twitter, please just Justiculate wildly so I know that otherwise. Let's go to the gentleman over there My English is not too good. Can I talk in German? Is that possible? I have a more fundamental question I'd like to extend the view on the problem here In our society Participation is only possible If you are an entrepreneur if you are an employer You if you're a selfish employer or if you're a selfish employee So the theology of work as it were theology of work used to exist also in Communism not just in capitalism. So my question would go to the Swedish Prime Minister. What is your take on? Religion and work coming from Protestantism, which was then taken up by Marxism and under other forms of social participation Talking about the keywords of Democracy civic and civil activity. I think theology of work is overrated it Leads us Into difficulties in view of the technological productivity and progress The value of work will continue to decrease and that is a perspective that won't lead us in the future So let's deal with the theology of work capitalism and communism and please keep your answers under 30 seconds Let this I think this is a really wonderful question. Let me rephrase it a little bit Why are we so concerned about jobs? The future that I'm that I'm trying to lay out for you is one of amazing abundance supplied by the machines Why aren't we all like why we why are we uniformly so concerned about jobs and work and these old-fashioned notions? Well, I think oh, sorry. No, no, I'm in a snob I Believe it's a Believe this has to do with the nature of of of human beings We want to feel that we're doing something that is this meaningful We want to create we want to build We want to be part of something that is bigger than me and and that's that's the whole thing I mean why would have we bothered in the in the beginning if we if we weren't Constructed that way. So I think it has to do with it with the nature and then of course we want to do things easier. Yes That's another thing even Welding machines I can accept but but but that's another thing, but I do still that we want to Everybody everybody that has been out of work For some time feel that there is something lacking. There's something lacking. You need that that's social The social experience with other people and and building something and get the idea sense of community exactly and get And you're doing something good and somebody clap your shoulder. So that's good job You've got a colleague. You've got somebody that you're right dependent, right? Okay, but even self-employed can feel I mean They're also in some they're self-employed, but they're also a part of something that is bigger than they are contributing So so I think it's the human nature and you think it's a it's a good invaluable part of human nature Absolutely need to preserve. Absolutely. Yeah, and I would I would absolutely Concurve that I think the dignity of work is fundamental for you know Humans to feel that they are participating in in the general growth of society But you know your point was around this binary, you know the the polarity of various positions And that's where I think there will be evolution Because the traditional view is it's only this kind of work that is good and all of the rest is not good So if you're you're if you're in this kind of situation, that's not good. That's not sustainable But this is a perfect world I think you will find an evolution where individuals for personal preferences will want to contribute in different ways and in some Kind sometimes because of necessity that they don't have any choices yet and then they will continue to evolve So I believe it's not going to be a binary future. I believe it's going to be more of a scale of Options that individuals will hopefully have and that they will acquire the opportunity to participate in many different ways that may not be Traditional so I know I didn't go into your Marxism and you know Protestant Learning's question, but you know that is my take on what's going to happen in the labor markets Then from a rational economist perspective, isn't this preference for work kind of silly? I'm not a rational economist And I am I absolutely agree with my what was said I too I think we're all sorry I think we're all agreed work means something in terms of your integration in society and also means something about Self-realization about meaningfulness and That goes across all societies Now the question about religions and their attitude. It's very interesting I mean all major religions say something about work and actually value work very strongly My dad used to say when I was at school I was a Protestant who didn't get the work ethic because I was a very bad student the Catholic The Catholic Church's social doctrine on work is very well established Islam is a very well established doctrine on work and you could go on now The point about the future is even if we could sort of subscribe to this notion of a machine generated Era of abundance when we can all basically stay in bed in the morning people won't I mean by the way Somebody got there before you are Karl Marx talked about this stage of communism and utopia when you wrote Das Kapitel I got through the first ten pages and it's all there. It's all there But he said that people will work when they feel like it with a view to self-realization and Contribution to something bigger than themselves and it's interesting which is why it is somewhat paradoxical that Communism was the one atheistic society that elevated work into a religion into a false idol You know and as the old anecdote about the Soviet trade Union said yes The way we do it is we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us and that's how they got on Just I just want to say okay, I agree on the integration through work I think we will have to think about reduction of working time I know it's a difficult subject But I think we will have to think about that in the future and and sometimes some puzzle because in the 18th century the good thing was not to work if you were rich enough You didn't have to work and you were perfectly integrated in society So it's a question, but I think I would need to start a seizes in philosophy to be able to You have one of those don't we have I could do it again probably Okay, we have a relatively small amount of time remaining so I'm going to Specify that we now do a lightning round which means the question is not only need to be short Our answers need to be quite short as well to fit in more of them sir Well before we all leave I would like to thank you very much this great panel. I think we all agree with me I am since 1973. I'm a participant of the forum. It was the European management forum at this time and It's really great to be here again Since we appreciate that and now we know we appreciate that and now we need the questions. Thank you very much not no question My name is dick shoulder, I'm a graduate student a short question to mrs. Ray We were talking about the growth of capital due to technological change and that's like a driver of inequality What are as an economist like you advise for policies how to counter that inequality without destroying the growth? That's that's a short question No, so There's a very long, you know Economic literature about how to design fiscal system in order to keep incentives for growth And to to have and and also taking into account fairness, so I cannot go into details there but Unfortunately, so what I can say is that so the new data that we have largely put together around Toma Piketty and his co-authors Emmanuel says etc. Do point to a very important divergence both in in wealth and in income in a number of countries again, this is heterogeneous and You you could say to a point where indeed an inequality, you know, maybe detrimental to economic growth And if this is the case then you have various ways of going about it The proposal of Piketty as you may know is a global wealth tax Which seems to be a bit of a utopian finger in the current state of issues As was mentioned before I bet you know these issues about inequality have to be tackled on a global basis This is something I believe at least for European level or more because you need cooperation If you're gonna crack down on tax evasion if you're gonna impose any taxation on something which is mobile You're not gonna be able to do it alone So the first thing to try to to reach there is a kind of consensus and and and to move the agenda forward now You know then at which level this is really a Never debate, okay, five minutes left everyone. Can we go in the back? We have some hands up and toward more of the back We are at the world economic forum And I would really like to know what you think about all that you discussed about the technical evolution and everything in respect of the global And globalization and if this is not a question, maybe mr. McAfee you could turn that into a question What why are we all this? This is such a rich world Western European? Panel can any of you talk at all about the rest of the darn world where most people live Well try First thing to say is the world doesn't look the same everywhere as it looks in Europe that that really is true One of the good things in what is a pretty alarming sort of scenario for meant from many respects is guess What the global middle class is getting bigger and bigger and bigger in the developing world? 34% of jobs 34% of jobs Give what we Calculate to be a middle-class standard of living okay, it's modest, but it's there And it's growing very quickly. It's growing very quickly. So that is quite interesting I think as a as a reflection on our overall circumstances The other thing I think I mean all these debates that take place in the forum You get a more of a bewildered sort of feel at the end of it. There's so many different things going on You know, there are regional processes out there some of which are very worrying We talked about security what's going on in the Middle East. There's an awful lot of conflict open violent conflict going on in The world sometimes it gets nearer to Western Europe. You see what's going on in the Ukraine Sometimes you have terrible instance such as in Paris a couple of weeks ago But this is day-to-day experience for much of the world There's a great deal of conflict out there And I think that needs to concentrate our minds as we deal with all the things in one thing I can tell you based on my experiences on a lot of in a lot of different sessions here at the forum if this panel were Composed of Asians and Africans it would have an unbelievably optimistic tone to it Next question, please We go over there, so yep Yeah Folger graph as a physicist. I want to say don't wait for the future great Did it and I'm saying so because it's clear that innovation and technology is a main driver for new jobs and so on and so it will create wealth accumulation and What you have to create the future is how to redistribute and now comes the question and the question is This is so key for the stability of the society is that there should be focused on Maybe evolutionary way how to react redistribute everything Thank you What's the right redistribution policy going forward Taxation working time wages market forces Okay, you're the tiebreaker We need a mix This is serious sweet. We need we need we need a market driven economy. I'm convinced of that We need the market to if I mean we've tried the the other The other alternative in the Eastern part of Europe. It wasn't successful So we know that but we need Predistribution and redistribution Predistribution is giving everybody a proper education everybody a job But redistribution is also important because we know we want a welfare system at least in Sweden welfare system social security That that not only is helping the individual that needs it for the moment It is helping the whole economy and that is the genius thing with with social security that you you Benefit from it as an individual when you need it But the surrounding environment knows that he or she although she is unemployed or he is unemployed or sick Will still be able to take part in the economy and and and consume So so those are very importantly. We need pre-distribution and redistribution And those are good words to end on thank you all for coming out and thank you to the panelists for doing such a great job