 be your life. Okay so hey everybody and good morning enough so hey everybody good morning and good afternoon and good evening depending on the time zone. This is Daniel and this is Hyperlegia Hermita and we're gonna speak of deposit tokens or tokenized home actual bank deposits that's gonna be the topic for today and basically just just for not to be surprised my network is sometimes is a little bit buggy so it might happen that I that I go fly night for for 10 seconds that's gonna be like my unintended coffee break and then even if my voice is like a little bit buggy then I just just try to speak slowly so so I hope I hope it's it's gonna be great at the end so uh but I mean this is Hyperlegia this is the blockchain meetup series from from Linux foundation and then uh so basically Hyperlegia focuses focus for the first from basically on on on on commercial commercial applications and basically like like more like consortium like Daniel you're still there looks like Daniel dropped that was basically my 10 seconds unintended coffee break but anyway uh so basically the topic for today is is deposit tokens or tokenized home actual bank deposits which is which is practically very very early stage I would say that there isn't many applications on the topic so basically what I'm gonna have I will have like like a 20 30 30 minutes presentation on the topic and then we can have some some conclusions some some discussions some some questions and answers at the end basically so this is the agenda for today we start with one slide but actually a deposit token I will just continue a little bit with like tax only of money or or no digital money forms then I will have a couple of slides on on use cases and benefits of of deposit tokens some initiatives again there isn't very much initiatives it's it's just because I mean this whole whole field is is very very novel and very new some platforms I mean actually there's there's only one platform which is surely capable of of issuing our deposit tokens uh all the others uh just you know I mean I will I will say uh basically uh so all the all the other things are just uh platforms that might be capable of of of issuing basically uh something which is which is a deposit token I will I will give some some very good further references are basically at the end and then some conclusions and of course we can continue with with questions and answers so that's going to be the agenda for today I hope my microphone and everything works well at the moment again I might as well have some some issues but I hope I hope it's working at the moment so uh let's just continue and then so what is basically a deposit token um so deposit token is is basically a transferable token issued on a DLT it shouldn't be necessarily distributed ledger but usually we associate with the DLT or a blockchain and it is basically this token is issued by a licensed depository institution or practically by by banks or commercial banks which basically has has a deposit as as an evidence behind this issued token so this sounds a little bit like like scientific for the first time if you are if you are not a banker basically the idea is that that that for a classical bank deposit we issue a token it's important that this this should be a tokenized form of of bank deposit and then so I just say it is issued on a blockchain on a distributed ledger technology or with distributed ledger technology each it's not necessary not absolutely necessary that it is it is issued on a DLT on a blockchain it is just if we say tokens we usually associate tokens with blockchain with distributed ledger I mean we might as well interpret tokens without blockchains there are some initiatives like I think one from visa that tries to to do like tokenized applications on message-based platforms without blockchain but usually if we if we say token or tokens that's something which is which is practically associated by by blockchains so usually there are two concepts and then they are pretty much the same there are like very minor differences between deposit tokens or tokenized commercial bank deposits so I just use them actually as the same concept so if we say like deposit tokens or tokenized commercial bank deposits what we think of that's basically a claim again it's an issuing bank that's usually a commercial bank it is convertible on demand and at par so one-to-one to to traditional bank deposits or even to central bank money which is which is I mean cash mostly it should be like full fungible to provide the singleness of currency it is certainly a very good question how we can provide like full fungibility it's usually a tricky question I mean I mean even it with like CVDCs it's a it's a difficult question how we can provide full fungibility but the idea is basically that the deposit tokens act as money as a single money basically which is which is equal to all other forms of money again if that's is realistic or not that's that's a very good question what's important it's backed and handled the same way as as classical commercial bank deposits so basically it means such deposit tokens should be regulated actually the same way or more or less the same way as commercial bank deposits of course I mean it raises some challenges because of the nature of blockchain which is which is more like you know I mean I mean not in the company but somehow brings information and token and value outside the banks outside of companies so it is it is very much questionable if that can be realized absolutely but the idea is that from a from a regulational from a from a practical perspective it is the same as a classical commercial bank deposit from a regulatory principles it's like AML, KYC, Basel and stuff like that should work the same way there are some discussions as well that like for instance deposit insurance which is like 100 000 euro in the EU if I'm not mistaken it's I guess like 250 key in the in the US so like deposit insurance should be should be available or or valid for deposit tokens as well again I mean that's the idea certain it's a good question how it can be realized as as basically tokens are not in the banks not in the company but somehow a little bit more outside so that's the deposit token or or tokenized commercial bank deposit so let's see some some taxonomy of money and some some different forms of money and let me just try to to put in somehow into the taxonomy of money for instance this and this deposit token this is the classical money flower it's like I think like three years old so it's it's pretty old actually and it won't won't capture fully like this tokenized deposit it's such an overlay or such a new idea but basically what we see here that's like four dimensions so we got money which is central bank issued we got money which is which is peer to peer or I would say more decentralized we got money which is electronic and we can we have money which is which is universe universally accessible I would say it's for for retail and then we can have like different characteristics or different kind of monies here so for instance if we say cash cash is issued by the central bank it is not electronic it is practically peer to peer in a sense and it is retail so it is universally accessible it's like novel ideas of central bank digital currencies these are in the middle practically it's like kind of central bank issued peer to peer money which is electronic and and retail so accessible for for everybody practically so this is the money flower I just don't don't take a look on all of these uh these items but if we take a look on like deposit tokens we are somewhere somewhere in the direction of bank deposits and special form of cryptocurrencies I would say so first of all basically deposit token is a kind of bank deposit because it's electronic and it's universally accessible meaning that's practically a retail payment but but the point is that basically that's not issued I mean it is issued centrally but it has some decentralized characteristics as well so in some sense it has it has characteristics of the stable coins we see here cryptocurrency again because that's I mean this money flower is old like three years old so it's a bank deposit which is electronic which is retail but has some peer to peer characteristics as well we see here like just peer to peer if we say like they decentralized decentralized can be interpreted in many many different ways so if you think of deposit tokens I would say it's something which is semi decentralized it is because it is it is handled by a distributed ledger platform so like the transfer itself is decentralized is peer to peer but the issuance of the money the issuance of the token is not decentralized the issuance of the money is practically realized by the given commercial or by a given commercial bank so if you speak of like deposit tokens we are somewhere here with some some peer to peer decentralized characteristics it's electronic it's not issued by the central bank it's retail and it has some some decentralized elements as well so that's what I summarize here it's electronic it's it's retail it's non-central when issued it's not issued it's not issued in a decentralized way but it is handled in a in a decentralized way in terms of transfer it is issued by banks it is tokenized partly peer to peer the token settlement is peer to peer but the issuance is not the issuance is centralized so that's what what what what the deposit token we can compare a little bit with like other novel digital money forms as well and then it's getting I mean this is like a more up-to-date list of different monies different competing monies than the money flower so first we got something which is a CBDC CBDC is a money which is issued by the central bank it is basically a direct liability to the central bank and then we can have like wholesale or retail versions versions of it it's like the the digital euro initiative on the on the European market is is one such retail CBDC initiative at the moment talk about of course we can speak of something which is a synthetic or indirect CBDC so the point is here that a synthetic CBDC is not issued by the central bank directly but indirectly by regulated institutes in its institutions these regulated institutions might not be banks I mean I mean they can be practically like payment service providers and then basically a synthetic CBDC is a is a representation of a private liability liability that is backed by one by one by by by by central bank many money I would say so that's practically it's like by traditional resource held held at the at the central bank and we got tokenized deposit so tokenized deposit is issued by by regulated deposit taking institutions so practically by by mostly by commercial banks and and this is a direct representation of a private liability against against a commercial bank and it is backed by by commercial bank money practically disbacked by the by the balance sheet of the of the commercial bank and basically what's endured and it is I mean theoretically should be regulated the same way as basically a commercial bank by any deposit we got some some other two new forms of money and then here things are getting a little bit like more complicated what is a deposit token what's not a deposit token so for instance we can have something which is a fiat fiat packed stable coin fiat packed stable coin can be actually issued by regulated and non-regulated institutions and then it can be different if it is fully packed by fiat or it is this just partly packed by fiat or or partly algorithmic or or something so so fiat that stable coin can be actually more more complicated it is basically a liability against a private issuer which is backed fully or partly which is backed fully or or partly by fiat currency and then basically that's that's that's either regulated or non-regulated there are some some regulates still and then we can have something which is tokenized e-money and then tokenized e-money is like another similar concept there are regulated e-money issuers practically you should such I would say a fiat denominated stable coin which is a which is a which is a liability of the of regulated e-money and it is reference to a single fiat currencies and back one by one basically in liquid or or or low risk essence so I would say so these three categories can be basically similar if they are issued by banks theoretically tokenized and and the difference is is sometimes difficult to decide I would say it's like if it's a fiat packed stable coin which is issued by the bank then practically it should be regulated by mica as an asset reference token and that practically provides like other guarantees that the that are available for for like for like for like commercial bank deposits for instance so they are they can be similar but especially if they are issued by banks but there might be some minor differences these are most likely probably like legal differences and the differences in like securities and and then then then then the difference rules that should be kept practically so let's just continue and a bit like a little bit like you know I mean easier topics let we see some use cases and benefits of deposit tokens so firstly they can be used in payment they can be used in fast faster or cheaper or as a faster or cheaper payment solution it is it can be especially exciting if it is like a cross-border payment because like you know I mean payment in one jurisdiction uh the moment or payment in the EU is pretty well but if you speak of like cross-border payment that's usually something which is regarded as as slow and inefficient and expensive so it can be deposit token might be actually a solution that improves cross-border payment let me can speak of like innovative payment these innovative payment solutions that are especially associated with DLT and then so one or such examples are micro payments and more on the technical side so I mean something if you have like a blockchain then we can have like a state channel integration so we can have like you know I mean thousand one cent transaction per second or something similar I can provide something which is a machine to machine payment perhaps generally better pay per use license models and perhaps even better innovations like wallet integration and so on and so on for instance one one thing which is on the european market there's the there's the european wallet initiative at the moment which which actually tries to try to integrate like payment solutions as well so it's like it's like especially a hot topic like how like like like practically verifiable credential based uh based wallets can be integrated with payment solutions and then then one way of of thinking of it is like using a deposit tokens so another benefit or use case is programmable payment of course or programmable money especially if we think of like multi-estatomic transactions I mean of course blockchains and smart contracts are very good of realizing such a thing it's like changing one one currency to another one or one token to another one or or or basically if we think of that's like an initiative in tokenizing everything so if we if we think of like like other tokens non non-money like tokens as well then then especially like payment for non-money like token is is difficult at the moment I mean I mean we can use of course like stable coins but it's just fully it's just not fully regulated but partly so it might not be the best option so as soon as we speak of like multi-estatomic transactions of course I mean blockchain and tokenization is a good way to do it it it implies reduced counter parties of course supposing that the smart contract is secure enough of course so two examples are like payment versus payment it's like if I change one money to another one or one currency to another one or payment versus delivery it's again the use case let me just imagine if I have like tokenized security like a tokenized stock or a tokenized bond perhaps in the future and I just want to buy for a tokenized money a piece of like a tokenized bond of course it's possible to do with centralized institutes but that's kind of a counter part risk so it can be probably done faster cheaper and with reduced counter part risk if we think of full tokenization and the money lack I mean the cash lack can be basically a deposit token so further use cases and benefits I mean one big benefit is interoperability generally uh the way I see and the way several people see there's a big gap between the classical financial worth or infrastructure and and and and and and with these are new like blockchain based so financial attempts I mean these are just the experimentation of course at the moment but despite they it's just pretty difficult to integrate them into the classical financial work so deposit token might provide actually a way for for interoperability with like integrating money in a in a in a very classical banking form with other the LTE based financial ecosystems it might provide a way integration way with like web-free applications I mean of course web-free was was pretty much high like for for two years so the hype is at the moment over but I would say I mean despite the hype is over web-free is is here to say stay and then again anything which is in web-free and has a payment lag that's kind of difficult I mean I mean people use cryptocurrencies of course but it's it's just risky non-regulated and so not the luckiest thing to use so one way of of bringing like a fully compliant regulated payment into the web-free world might be actually a deposit token as well again can be like a cash cash lag for for any digital asset transactions it can provide better integration with tokenized use cases of course and perhaps this is already with more like science fiction or perhaps not so science fiction but a little bit like it might provide actually an integration way with this DeFi decentralized finance so decentralized finance is is very much innovative and then very much experimental and very much unstable at this stage but for instance one way of bringing like more stability and more regulation into the field of DeFi could be like using our regulated tokens as payment and then this can be actually a deposit token it's again it's a little bit like long-term stuff I would say but it's certainly a possibility one big benefit basically that deposit token preserves actually the the the credit creation and it is preserves basically the the the two tiered monetary system so if we think of like some of the initiatives like CBDC then CBDC even CBDC or stablecoins might have actually the risk that they just disintermediate the the banking system even if we think of like the new digital euro initiative there's I mean the new digital euro initiative has like like a 3000 euro limit as an account limit not to compete with the with banking money practically but this limit is very much very much a struggle so it's it's just difficult to bring like new payment solutions I would say in a way that it it doesn't compete practically with the with the banking system so I mean this could be a way because because I mean I mean this way practically it is a token it is a new innovation which is issued which is introduced directly by the by the banking system last but not least there might be even like possible coexistence with CBDCs I mean especially with with wholesale CBDCs we think of I mean deposit token is is clearly like a retail use case so like retail use case retail deposit token and retail CBDC might compete with each other but if we think of like a wholesale CBDC and deposit token combination that might actually work so let me have some some technical stuff I mean I have just this slide on on technicals it's again it's very very early stage we can define several token times we can brainstorm how such deposit token can be issued we can consider several token types and infrastructure considerations so in terms of tokens the probably the worst solution is like something which is called the call order token in such situation each commerce through a bank issues its its own deposit token totally independently from from other banks perhaps on a different technological basis on different reserves and then even tokens and and risk and and technology mis-specified independently from the others it is not a very lucky solution because it has problems with the singleness of money it's a problem problems with with fungibility fungibility of the token so it would be a better way if like you know I mean it would work the same way as as like as like as like retail money even if retail money is issued practically partly by banks it is fungible it is it is considered as a single currency basically the next solution is that several several banks practically jointly own and issuing like like a single deposit tokens this participation can be like you know same platform same token same liquidity standards providing better fungibility and and and and liquidity and then the best way is something which is a standardized token here practically common common stock and standards can be introduced that are backed by a highly liquid resource and then it might provide like a full full fungibility of the deposit token in terms of infrastructure one consideration is like issuing on a private ledger which is specific to bank again this is probably not the luckiest solution another solution might be is like issue on a consortium ledger here the idea is that like like several institutions join and then set up a consortium ledger it might be it might be a possibility certainly certainly and and then last but not least public ledgers might be considered especially with with deposit tokens I mean public ledgers are getting a little bit like more complicated at the moment because there might be the consideration on on the air one public blockchains and there's there's there's getting to be many likely air two extension extensions as well so I mean public ledgers from an infrastructure point of view getting like more and more complicated I would say so I did not find many initiatives it's again I would say because this field is very early stage of course I mean this whole field was initiated probably by GP Morgan they they they already created like a platform that's on its platform as far as I know that's consortium a distributed ledger platform with like the building functionalities for for issuing for instance deposit tokens and then making some some operations on on that and they even I have like a kind of a pilot projects I think in Singapore so sorry that's that's again that's my cafe break practically so I share I share in my screen so I would say give me just give me just like five more minutes I finish I finish my presentation and then we can have like a discussion and then we can discuss like like anything I got like yeah like four more slides but these are mostly like I mean conclusions and and stuff like that so just give me five more minutes and and we can jump into the conclusion and then and then we can have any discussion that you feel like so one thing is that like the Bank of England provide provided the guidance on tokenized bank deposits so practically the Bank of England pushes basically and this one pilot from from Mastercard for deposit tokens so these are the initiatives of course question is which are the possible platforms that might that might provide functionalities for for deposit tokens and I would say as far as I know only the onyx platform from from GP Morgan which is fully meant to provide a deposit token functionalities but I would say there will be probably other platforms as well that might that might provide such functionality on a short term but again this is these are just my guesses I would guess the platforms that provided the moment like like CBDC sandbox CBDC experimental solutions it's because from from a tokenization perspective like a tokenized central bank money money and the tokenized commercial bank bank money is is not something which are which are very much different a different again from a technological perspective so platforms or sandbox providing of CBDC like pilots or or or initial initial frameworks can be probably easily extended to to deposit tokens as well so again but these are just guesses I would guess the regulated liability network perhaps it might have some some it might might have some some some some deposit token functionalities already I would say the the XRP ledger Ripple they have like a CBDC sandbox that can be probably very easily extended to deposit tokens ARFI Corda has like basically kind of a CBDC sandbox as well it can be probably very easily extended to deposit tokens and then under Hyperledger there are like Hyperledger CBDC experiment these are more like on a on a research phase because I mean this whole field is you know very much open source but there's one experiment with with the Hyperledger fabric and the token SDK again technically that could be very easily extended to deposit tokens as well and of course the question is I mean I mean of course these are originally CBDC initiative initiatives but if you speak of like deposit tokens we might as well consider like public blockchain networks and then more it's just more valuable than than than them for a CBDC and of course it's the question if if anybody provides like like like a deposit token framework on on public blockchain networks not that I know at the moment but perhaps it's it's coming in the future and just let me summarize two more slides and then we can likely jump into discussion so I just I have some further references these are basically the white papers it's like the the banking on tokens from from digital US association it's worth reading actually I contributed basically here then there's the the deposit token from Swiss bankers association it's a very good white paper as well of course the depositing tokens from from GP Morgan that's practically you know I mean I mean I mean that's the ONIX platform there's there's like a white paper from from the Deutsche Credit and Weirschaft as well and then as far as I know there are like one or two white papers from from from from BIS as well these are good white papers so I would I would recommend to read these white papers again these are four ones and like two more BIS papers and then discover pretty much the state of the art of deposit tokens so one more slide this conclusion so basically as a conclusion I would say the the innovation of money I mean has been has been really heavily accelerated in the last couple of years so like for for like 20 years there were like I don't know one or two different kind of money at the moment I would just count like I don't know six seven eight nine ten different kind of money so it's just sometimes weekly on the other hand like like token based innovations are expected to have a very high innovation potential so like again there's this token is Europe 20 25 which is from the which is like an EU initiative so it's it's it's a little questionable if it's more like marketing or or if it's really meant seriously but anyway it's a it's a good initiative so supposing that you know I mean I mean most of the services will be tokenized in Europe like I would say the end of the decade for instance of course the question is which is the payment that can be best integrated with like such tokenized services again payment in generally with token based applications is challenging and then most like payment or token based current token based payment solutions like cryptocurrencies or even even stable coins they have simple weak legal guarantees and and very weak or even weaker customer protection so deposit tokens might provide here basically a compliant and regulated tokenized solution for for payment and again one one important aspect it it it does actually without disintermediating the banking system so that was my conclusion and then I have just finished my presentation so we can likely discuss any topics that you that you feel like so if you have like any questions just feel free to unmute yourself and ask or or you know if you have comments just just feel free to unmute yourself and and and comment my presentation or or comment comment basically the topic otherwise I'm just just reading through basically the chat and if I if I think I can answer answer the the reason question I will just try to answer so there's a question if there's any difference between deposit tokens and tokenized deposits I would say I don't think there's there's much difference perhaps perhaps there's like minor difference from a from a from a legal perspective but otherwise from a technology or even from an economic point of view I would consider them to be the same but again if you if you see differences between between deposit tokens and tokenized commercial bank deposits just let me know I won't won't won't discuss with that necessary I would I would consider them to be the same yeah so for the questions this this this is live stream on YouTube it is recorded so so you can take a look on the record recording later on and then the the slides will be shared this so there's there's one one comment regarding decentralization so so in terms of decentralization decentralization is not just a not just a black black or white thing not just the binary thing which is which is zero or one there are there are many levels of decentralization so we can we can consider decentralization practically like a consortium ledger or a full public ledger even even on a on a full public ledger there are like different arts of of decentralization it can be like like more decentralized as bitcoin or or less decentralized as as having with like a partially centralized consensus algorithm and then we can think of decentralization as as functionality for instance so again if we speak of like deposit tokens are clearly the the transfer the ownership of this token which is decentralized but like the the issuing of this token is not is not decentralized it's it's like fully centralized so again we probably speak of here not generally not of fully decentralization but kind of a partial partial decentralization yeah so there's one question what's the different between deposit token and stablecoin and then um so so stablecoin actually works might work pretty pretty differently uh for for stablecoins uh there are different schemes actually you can have like uh like fieldback stablecoin you can have like um crypto back stablecoin and you can have like stablecoin as well and then even if you have like fieldback stablecoins it is not necessarily sure that it is it is fully backed by fiat and if it is issued by a by a bank so it is not sure that you have like the same same guarantees legal and and security guarantees for your tokenized money as for your for your bank deposit but if you just I would say if you just say that hey what is the difference between between stablecoins which is fully backed by a commercial bank deposit and issued by the bank and deposit tokens I would say not much probably some minor uh regulation and issues probably in such specific in that specific use case your stablecoin is regulated by the by the mica assets reference token and your deposit token is is by banking regulation so there's one again I mean if you have like any questions comments uh that you want to issue or discuss with the community just just go ahead unmute yourself and then just just comment or ask otherwise I'm just I'm just reading the chat and I'm just trying to interpret our questions and try to answer them so there's uh there's a good question uh it's an open question how how like a deposit token should behave as an investment vehicle uh but probably it can so like for instance what's the interest bearing characteristic of a of a of a of a of a deposit token that's that's still like an open question but generally that should work the same way as as deposit uh basically so so theoretically that should have like kind of um interest bearing uh I mean interest characteristic as well yeah there's one question if I can share share my thoughts on the on the regulation and framework for stablecoins by the monetary authority of Singapore legal stuff I have some some insights on the on the on the mica regulation on the market on crypto assets regulation uh which is issued by the european union uh but otherwise uh it's just monetary regulation from the monetary authority of Singapore is just too far from my competence I'm not quite sure if if there's already like uh like sec uh from the secretary exchange any any regulation or regulation attempts uh I didn't find like um like like examples uh apart from gp morgan uh if if there's uh if there's much initiative uh for for deposit tokens in the us uh basically I'm more on the european market uh yeah so so deposit token is is not equivalent to a retail cbdc uh it has some some differences for instance so for instance uh one difference is so i mean i mean certain the question is which is the infrastructure um if you say retail cbdc uh then then basically retail cbdc is not necessary considered to be issued on a blockchain um if you see like the digital euro uh initiative it is it will be issued on instant payment systems not on a blockchain uh for several reasons uh so that's one big difference uh and then basically uh deposit token is is a tokenized form of money so it's most likely uh will be issued on on kind of a blockchain that's one one difference from a technical point of view uh from an economical point of view a deposit token is more risky is just because uh it is based on uh on banking money and banking money is is simply more risky than the central bank uh central bank money um that's that's another difference uh the third difference if you use like deposit token i mean if you if you use retail cbdc overall uh you might practically um you know i mean i mean compete with the with the with the two-tier banking system which basically which might affect uh financial stability uh very very very wrongly um so that's that's a pretty big uh issue uh if you use a deposit token then you you don't have problems with this with the existing system basically uh so what is the difference between retail cbdc and wholesale cbdc so retail cbdc is for for everyday users it's like uh you know if you buy a cafe like in in a starbucks that's that's retail cbdc if you do like um settlements between two banks uh or like two foreign banks for instance that's wholesale cbdc wholesale cbdc is rather between between banks uh or financial institutes uh not for everyday uh users so again if you have any questions i mean just feel free to unmute or comments feel free to unmute yourself and then just ask the question otherwise i'm just just reading the comments and questions and then i just uh try to pick uh that i can answer basically so technical perspective is the is the deposit token produced and by a smart contract on the blockchain uh so i mean it's a technological question it it depends on the underlying blockchain infrastructure uh there are there are blockchains uh where practically you you need smart contracts for tokens uh so so if you like if you if you ztum or hyperledger fabric you should implement your token uh with the help of smart contracts and then your token is fully realized by smart contracts um there are other ledger solutions as well it's like the i think the hyperledger uh which which handles tokens natively so you can issue basically uh token you can transfer token uh and you can like probably revoke token as well as a native activity you don't need smart contracts for for that uh but if you have like uh some some some special uh program use case then you can you can basically held or you can hold your smart tokens in in smart contracts as well so actually there's one question regarding the the value value of the of the deposit token so the the value of the deposit token should be actually the same as the as the as the bank uh so if you uh then then you will trust in the in the token you should you should buy your bank as well so there's one question is uh it's it's a little bit off topic but anyway uh for hyperledger fabric development uh i would propose uh there's a discord channel of of hyperledger uh and then it says like a hyperledger fabric session as well so if you if you have any like technical topics uh regarding hyperledger fabric development i would propose just to jump in into discord channel of hyperledger and then and then just just check with the people um you can find uh you know i mean many many many variable help uh anyway uh if you have like any questions uh just feel free to connect me later on otherwise if you have any questions right now uh you can feel free to unmute yourself and just ask why is i'm just having like i don't want more question probably and then and then we are as we are running out of time yeah it's again one more question regarding the the value of the deposit token but the value of the deposit token is connected very strongly with the with the the value of the deposit at the bank uh so if you if you trust your bank if you trust that's that your bank account has a value which most people actually has so most people most people actually trust apart from some some very strong crypto artist uh then then you can trust basically that the that the token has has value as well so i would say that was the last question as i as i as i see uh i would like to thank you very much uh for the attention and then that was basically the presentation and some discussion for today again this is a very early stage uh seeing this is a very early stage topic we might as well see some some some achievements in the in the in the in the next uh one or two or three years and then we can have like more technical discussions meetups as well okay thank you very much for the for the attention and for the contribution and then have a nice day thanks Daniel thanks everyone