 Welcome to Drum History. I'm your host, Bart van der Zee, and I will be taking you on a trip through time to learn and discover as much as we can about the drummers that came before us. Today, I'm joined by the amazing Kelly Ray Tubbs, who is a performer, clinician, and historian. She'll be sharing her extensive knowledge of trap drummers with us, along with lots of great information about the silent movie era. And also, I wanted to mention when you hear examples of the instruments being played, they're from Kelly's YouTube series and are being performed by William F. Ludwig III. So without further ado, let's get started. Hello and welcome to the podcast. We have Kelly Ray Tubbs with us today to discuss trap drummers in the silent movie era. Kelly, how are you? Hi, I'm great. I'm great, thank you for asking me to join you today. Awesome, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here. All right, so let's get into the topic that we're here to talk about today, the trap drummers in silent movies. In layman's terms, what is a trap drummer and what is he doing in the silent movies thing? What would his role be? A trap drummer. So let's get what the word trap is believed to come from and that is from the word contraption. And all of those bits and pieces, the whistles and the things that shake, rattle, or roll, as I like to describe them, those were all contraptions and shortened to the word trap. And what we find and what I've found in the images that I have obtained through the years is that trap drummers not only played bass drum and snare drum, cowbell wood blocks, cymbals just like the early traditional jazz players, but also the whistles, the tuned cowbells. Some people would have a set of eight tuned cowbells and others would have just a set of four which would be an arpeggio of some flavor. And whistles, so whistles that would imitate birds or machines or other animals and vehicles like trains and steamboats, tugboats, you know just any, and weather would be another category of the kinds of sounds that people would be recreating for the purposes of vaudeville shows. Sometimes circuses because there would be comedic elements within a circus like a clown's act and you might give a real big thud on a bass drum when a clown falls onto the ground or something. So the trap drummers regardless of the setting would be accompanying these comedic things, these environmental things, nature, so bringing just a little sense of reality to what they're seeing on screen. And originally music was added into the silent films not to enhance the movie but to cover up the sounds of the street cars and the cars outside the theater and the people inside the theater and the ventilation fans. And the sound of the projector which was very loud. So it was just used to cover up that but then they realized that they could really use that music to enhance and to create mood and then when they went another layer by adding the sound effects to make it a little bit more realistic by comparison. Wow, and that sells more tickets and that gets more people in the seats and gets more drummers hired. Absolutely. The reason I have been so impressed and amazed with your knowledge is because of your video series online which is the back in time sound effects series which you have multiple which are all amazing and we'll get a little bit into that more down the road. But so you did the series with William F. Ludwig III or Bill or B3 where you guys go through his collection that was belonged to, was it his father's collection? Was it WFL II? Was that all his stuff? Father and grandfather. Okay, so you guys go through this amazing history of these items they would use that were created to make these sounds. Like this was not like let's take this thing because it sounds like a horse clopping, let's take this. It was marketed and sold to these trap drummers. Is that correct? That's absolutely correct. There were several different companies that sold effects that trap drummers would use and typically the percussion companies and the music retailers that went that sold through catalogs like J.W. Pepper which is a company that is still in existence now in Texas. They were around in the early 1900s and they would have catalogs that would sell all sorts of sound effects and whistles as did the Ludwig company, as did Noakes and Nikolai, as did Yerkes. Interesting. So there were a lot of different companies because it was such big business and with Bill Ludwig's collection, these were things that had been sold through the Ludwig company and some of them developed by, for example, the Shurefire shot machine. That particular build, that model was exclusive to Ludwig. That is unbelievable, that machine which we can talk about here. It is. Do you wanna describe that? Let's get into the pieces they would use. I mean, predominantly the ones we're talking about are designed by Ludwig, but so let's start with the Shurefire machine. Oh, that is an amazing device. I had so much fun learning about that. He pulled it out of his bag of tricks and I had no idea what it was. I just hadn't been exposed to it and in this way, ignorance is bliss because you get to learn and that's my deal. It's like, I love learning and so this is just all candy for me. It's like, what is that thing? What is that thing? Hunk of metal with a bunch of holes in it and then oh wait, there's a lot more to it than that. There is a lot more to it than that. So if you can imagine a piece of metal, several pieces of metal, they're kind of hinged together. It's very tricky to describe but it's smaller than a pound of butter. If you can imagine that. So it's not very big, it's just a couple inches tall but it has a lid on top that opens up and then these wings that spread out and the wings each, if you have the wings closed, you can, there are chambers that are created where you can put in 16 32 caliber blank casings. That's heavy duty. Yeah, the wings are closed, the top hinge is closed and then there are basically metal buttons, one button that goes over each of the blanks and so you're able to strike each of the buttons either with a stick or a hammer or a mallet of some sort and this super loud gunshot goes off and believe me, I got to play that, I'm not sure if it's the right word to say, it's an instrument but that device and man, it was loud. I cracked the first one in my ears immediately started ringing. Exactly. Yeah, and it creates smoke and flames that shoot out these side exit ports from this device because that energy has to go somewhere. Yeah, yeah. So it shoots out the side and there's this huge billow of smoke and it's crazy. I can't even imagine when this device would have been used in a movie theater and there was like a big shootout, how much smoke would have filled the theater because they didn't have great ventilation systems. No, no. For sure. And safety and you're burning down the theater. I mean, not that that happened but. Yeah, exactly. I suspect that they maybe had the Surefire machine sitting on a slab of marble or something that would not be conductive to flames. Either that or they just took their chances. I don't know but you'd think that they would want to have it on something that wasn't going to at least immediately catch fire and of course asbestos was pretty popular back then too. So maybe they just put it on a little flat piece of asbestos. Which is its own hole. And now we think, oh my God, you're playing this on a slab of asbestos. But so just to clarify, the Surefire machine would be sitting there or a Surefire instrument is sitting there and you're hitting it to explode these blanks that sound like a gunshot to match to picture where there would be a shootout going on where there may be, you usually don't fire one shot in a shootout. In a shootout. So they would be matching to picture, going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, hitting it to give people the, to represent obviously to kind of trick your senses and to think this is happening on screen and that's amazing. I mean, that is just so cool. Yeah, exactly. There were a couple of different methods. The Surefire machine was one. There was another device that was kind of, if you can think about it as the cushion from a chair, the feet cushion and with these, it's hard to say that they were sticks but beaters and they had kind of a flat surface and you'd slap them onto this piece of leather. There was another half to it that was canvas so you could simulate horses, hooves, or gunshots with that device as well. So a couple of different ways to get the same kinds of sounds but that Surefire machine is just an amazing piece of engineering. It's fantastic. You're getting that sound. You're getting that sound of a gunshot versus like, oh, that kind of sounded like a car backfiring. It's the real deal. Yeah, there's no mistaking it. No. It's absolutely the real deal. All right, so we got the Surefire machine. Now let's run through a couple other ones because again, you have to have your arsenal or your toolbox full of stuff. So train sounds and these are all obviously, the cool thing is, is you have a video with Bill Ludwig running through all of these. So I really highly recommend listeners going from here to YouTube and we'll have the link provided but actually just you can see these and you can hear Bill talking about them. These are from the original collection. But so let's talk about the train sounds. I think that's a really cool one, which to me, some of them are like, that sounds like it, but it's not, it's almost a hundred years old and it's pretty good but the train sounds, I am just like, you close your eyes and it sounds like a train. It does, it does. It's such a fascinating, again, it's like, do you call it an instrument or do you call it a device? And I'm not sure it's, there aren't moving parts except for yourself moving. So it's hard to call it a machine. It's a little tricky. It defies in some ways the right kind of definition but if you can imagine, boy, what size box would that be? Kind of the size of a notebook. Like a two inch binder. Yeah, I got you. Yeah, something that size but totally rectangular like a cigar box with a slot running down one side where you can insert a scraper and that scraper is scraping over springs. Just the same kind of springs that you would have on a screen door on the back of your house and when that scraper is scraped over the springs and done in a rhythmic fashion and that wooden box is, it serves as a resonance chamber. It's amazing the sound that you can get out of that thing and if you were to close your eyes and not even have the visual image to guide you to the thought of that's a train, it still sounds like a train. No, it doesn't and you start with a jump, jump, jump kind of building up in speed and I mean, what a, and I know there, I remember Bill talking about how there was a, it almost looks like a file like that you put in there and you rub against the springs and I mean, what a fun, I imagine discovering these and creating them must have been a blast just to like, say, hey, that sounds like a train. Let's carry on and keep working on it and make it sound more like a train. Right, right, wait, what a, just what a fascinating time and that would be true for anything that someone is developing. It's, you know, it's this discovery and making it a little bit better. Maybe somebody else has a device that's similar and you're going to make it sound more authentic because of a change that you get to put into the, into that instrument or device. Yeah, and honestly too, I got that thought of when on top there was the little kind of metal frame that you would stick into it with a bell, which just appeared to be like a sheet of metal that you would go jump, jump, jump, jump and then hit the bell that's connected to it. So you get this kind of like all, and then you all aboard, you can do this all in one kind of. Exactly, yeah, the bell plates. Yeah, the bell plates were fantastic as well and they sound beautiful. It's like, what a great PAO for a rectangular hunk of metal, flat rectangular hunk. It's like, boy, that sounds really good. Yeah, it's got a good sound to it. So then moving on here, let's lump these two together. So we have the animal sounds, like the birds and the horses and all those different sounds. And I think it's amazing, we'll touch on the catalogs a little bit that when they actually sold them, but there was so many different kinds of birds. Right, and I think that probably speaks to, I don't know for sure because I haven't really seen a great number of silent films, but I think it speaks to the fact that a lot of the films were about everyday life topics. It was inconceivable, I think, or at least in large part, think about outer space. And they didn't have computers, but they had machinery, but they definitely had farm life, they definitely had city life, they definitely had humor. So there might be a scene of a couple courting and they're out in a nearby field because there wasn't, for many people, there wasn't a metropolitan area that they lived in. They were even big towns for small towns. And, but nature is certainly a common thread for all of those kinds of scenarios. And I think that's maybe why bird whistles were so common and that there were so many different kinds of birds. Yeah, and I think it's funny. Bird imitation. There's so many of them where it makes you think there'd be a guy in the audience who'd go like, oh, that's not a sparrow, that's not how that way that sparrow sounds. Or I mean, they really hit a lot of different categories where it's this attention to detail that I think kind of shows the quality that would, and the thought that went into this and how big of an industry it would be for Ludwig or for these companies. Right, and I think it also dovetailed with the fact that there were a lot of people who hunted birds. Yeah, wow. So I don't think that all of them had to do with movies. I think some of them, and in fact, maybe a good third of those bird imitations actually came because they were hunting the birds. I never thought of that. And that came from a different, yeah, a different tradition. And that, again, it's just another one of those examples where things dovetail that you don't expect are related, and yet they probably are. Yeah, hunting. I never would have put that together, but because I mean, I guess just being a drummer, you just think like, oh, this is for drums, but, and then quickly in the animal world, we also have the horses, which I think is just like you close your eyes and you hear the clip-clop of this, and again, referring to your video with Bill, the way it's shaped and the cup on the inside, it is designed and tested and refined to make a perfect horse sound where you can speed it up and you have the two of them and you're making this, you're really making a vivid horse sound. Right, right. And changing the kind of material that you're playing those upon changes the whole sound. It's taking advantage of the resonance chamber and taking advantage of texture. And like the band arrangements from the early 1900s, that music was all about texture and that's the same thing here because there wasn't this very detailed soundtrack that we've grown accustomed to in our day and age. They had to fill up a lot of sound and they wanted to make it as colorful and as expressive as they could, given some means that were a little more primitive by comparison to today. Also just the more in the sound effects world, the police rattles where it kind of comes back to what the content of the movie is about. You probably have a lot of police chases and cops and robbers and stuff like that where they would use this spinning, this kind of police rattle sound to create that, to evoke something that people hear. And now that police rattle would be used by police, obviously, to get the attention or why don't you just, I mean, how did the police rattle work? The police rattle, we know that today as the ratchet. And just a side note, it was, you know, when I was in high school and junior high school and having ratchets that were called for in concert band music, there was that little bracket that nobody ever knew what it was for, right? And it was so common in the early 1900s, such a go-to instrument that that bracket is actually made so that they can hook that onto the counter hoop of your bass drum. Oh my gosh. And then it just continued on to be a part of it and no one knows what it's for. Exactly, yeah. It has become obsolete, you know, with the advent of the talking movies, you didn't need to have that handy anymore. And that purpose has kind of gone by the wayside. But yeah, so it's a little bit mind-boggling to think how these metamorphoses happen. But when you get back to the roots of it, you make this odd discovery. You know, like, oh my gosh, this was, yeah, this was so common back then. And so getting back to how those ratchets were used as police rattles, the police had those as standard issue. And all the London bodies had them and policemen in America had them. And they would use that as an alert because it is a striking sound even today when you listen to a ratchet being played. It was a striking sound and they would whip these things around in the air because it was on a steady post instead of, instead of that kind of double-legged ratchet that we see today. It would just be on a handle and they would swing it around in the air and that would get the attention of other policemen who, you know, were kind of trained to listen for that sound and just general passers-by who might be able to come to assist in an emergency. And they would alert people with two fires. They would use a, yeah, they would use, you know, fire, emergency, medical situation, anything, the police or fire department, whatever, would be using that to let people know, hey, there's a situation here, folks. Because it's so cutting that it just cuts through the sound and then it's a part of everyday life so then it probably ends up in these moving pictures at that time. So people, it just brings more of a real, like a reality to what you're watching, it evokes that emotion of like almost, I would say panic because when you hear that ratchet, you think, uh-oh, something's going on, someone needs help or there's a problem and it kind of gets your heart rate pumping a little bit more. Absolutely, so people were playing with our emotions even back then. Yeah, wow, that's funny. So again, I really highly recommend everyone to go and look in, you can actually hear them and see them at Kelly's YouTube page with Bill F. Ludwig III who is, I haven't met him yet, but he seems like a great guy. Yeah, we have a lot of fun filming those videos. I was able to bring him in as an expert on a grant that I was awarded that allowed me to study those instruments and to create the videos. That is awesome, congratulations on the grant. So my thanks have to, yeah, my thanks goes out to the East Central Regional Arts Council who provided the funding for all of that. Awesome, well, you're very, very well deserving of it. You have used it very well. Thank you, thank you. Okay, so everything's going great. We're using these sound effects, trap drummers, or you got either one to three to four of them working. Then 1927 is when I have the first, like the jazz singer with Al Jolson, the first talkie coming out. Now, let's just get into a little bit about how things kind of went from being a world with trap drummers to this just not even existing anymore. Yeah, I don't know the exact year. I do know it's late 20s. I'm always, I learned an important lesson, not to say what was first because there's some, there's usually something that was first or that's, that's the quote. Yeah, exactly. And it might just not be as well known or something. Yep, you're smart, smart to do that. Yeah, that's right. And actually, so what preceded the films that came with a soundtrack as an integrated part were movies that were released with records that you would drop the needle in, you know, at a specific time with a film. So the concept of incorporating music with film was already a thought. And at that point, then, you know, if you're incorporating music, you're probably also incorporating some of the sound effects as well. And so that comes in between the moving pictures with completely no sound and moving pictures complete with sound. Interesting. That little middle, yeah, that little middle ground that a lot of people aren't really familiar with and including myself, I know that it existed. I haven't gotten to dig into that. I haven't gotten to view a movie that had an accompanying set of records that you would play simultaneous to the film. Well, that just gives me the thought of changing records a lot. You're having a guy up in the projection room who's like, I imagine there's similar to like, there's like three beeps and then you drop it. I just think people are watching this and the guy a couple of times has to be off. You know what I mean? Where he drops it a split second later and then the sounds aren't syncing up and the problems that would come from that. Absolutely. Yeah. Wow. That would drive me insane in that era, but I'm sure, you know, you don't know what you don't have again. Well, right, right. Yeah, you don't know what you don't have. And the way that it allowed the studios to be in better charge of what music was played. Yeah. Because that's the other thing that is important to note that when a movie got sent out to an area, you know, it's like your reel to film come in and your pianist is here. Let's say that it's just a pianist and not an entire small theater orchestra. But your pianist comes in and your pianist might or might not receive a recommended list of music that is appropriate for this scene and that scene and the next scene and the following scene. So if they do not have that music readily available, they need to pick something from their own personal collection that is like that. So the same movie viewed in one town might have a completely different emotional feel than the same movie played in the next town over just because of the musical choices that were made. So much room for error. A lot of room for error, but again, then you also have to think, well, these people were professional musicians and they would also do their best. Yeah, of course. And so, you know, it could have been very different. It could have been negligible in difference. And, you know, it's so hard to find people who were living and are able to tell us their experiences from watching the movies. And that puts us in a hard position here because we have to make a lot of guesses based on the information we have and the things that make sense. What we have are magazines that were published on a monthly basis that sent out sheet music that was appropriate for a hurry scene and appropriate for a chase scene and appropriate for a storm scene. And so a lot of musicians across the globe would have used these magazines to have that catalog of music that was really built more for the purpose of films and that kind of dovetails with these instruments that were built for the purpose of entertainment. Wow. Talk about a rabbit hole. You're going into the world of the magazine. I am so rabbit hole, yes. I know, wow. There are so many different rabbit holes to go down. I know. It is a little bit never-ending. It is, hopefully we can spark the fire and some people to get out there and do more discovering on that. But okay, so I'm a trap drummer. It's mid-1920s. I'm working. I have many gigs happening. It's great. I start to see that there are talking pictures coming out where they are accompanying the music and they put on a record they don't need me. Now does my boss, the theater owner say, hey, we don't need you tonight. How does that go? What is the development of starting to say we don't need you as much on this one versus this industry is non-existent anymore? How does that go? I think that was probably, I don't know for sure, but I think it was probably a pretty short turnaround. I think it was, we've got these sounds that come with the movies and we'll see you, see you, Charlie. Now get your gunshot machine out of here. We don't need it anymore. Exactly. Yeah, I think it was a pretty fast change in a lot of people's lives at that time. So a lot of people lost their jobs. I think they did, yeah. I think a lot of drummers in a lot of scenarios at the turn of the century lost their jobs and to machines in one way or another. For example, roller rinks were very popular in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And when you're thinking about a roller rink, it's kind of circular in that area in the middle, nobody skates in it, right? Yeah. Well, that's because they used to put a band in the middle. Oh, wow. And not to mention also tight corners and stuff, but yeah, there used to be musicians, oftentimes performing in the middle. And I've got a photograph of a roller rink, I think in Ohio, and it's got a totally fenced off area. So you can't accidentally bump through and into this area where a small orchestra would be performing and there's a little lectern for the conductor to have just a little bit of raised stuff. And so you look inside this roller rink and already at this time, the musicians' jobs had ended. I think it was maybe 1909 that my image is from because one of those player piano type of organs that has all of the other, literally the bells and the whistles and the drums. And it's, so that's sitting there and the rest of the cage is empty, no chairs. Wow, that's funny. No chairs for musicians. And then there were other roller rinks where the musicians were in a mezzanine above the roller rink level and that would free up the entire space for skating. So those jobs ended. There's a different point to be made, though. And that is that they didn't realize it, but the vaudeville actors kind of wrote their own demise because the studios would come to them and say, hey, you know, you, vaudeville act, you're great here. Let's get you on film. And so they did that because, you know, great, they're now they're going to be seen by a whole lot of people, which was wonderful for them. It was easier than touring and less expensive than touring and they'd get paid a bigger sum of money for less hours of work. Not realizing that it was writing their own ticket to lack of work. You get paid once, you're done. That's right, you get paid once and then the studio can show that as many times as they like. Wow. And so hand in hand with that, with the vaudeville act getting less and less work because the studio, you know, they're no longer needed in the same way. Well, then the musicians that performed in that theater, the theaters that were closing down, they were out of work. And the roller rink drummers were out of work and the silent picture drummers were out of work. And Cheshok was kind of fell by the wayside. And so they were out of work. You had a lot of different kinds of drummers, trap drummers who were, you know, kind of their roles were being downsized or replaced. And so it just makes it more important for you to be very good at what you do. Now, I wanted to ask you also about the manufacturers. You mentioned that Ludwig and there's a lot of them doing it, but I know that it would be, you know, I don't want to say 50%, but a lot of their catalog would be these trap instruments and these different varieties of noise makers and the surefire machine and all that stuff, that all went away. There were certainly pages dedicated to it, but let's, well, you know, then again though, I'm thinking about catalogs from the mid to late 20s where at that time jazz was already taking, and common music as compared to orchestral music was already taking such a lead and was so popular, people were gearing up for that, the pages dedicated to sound effects and to whistles. It's, you know, you don't really have to have a description or a picture so much of an item that costs 50 cents. A wood block is kind of a wood block. It's kind of a wood block. But the drum, the features on this drum, which is a rope tension versus the features of this drum, which is a Prussian style single rod tension versus this drum, which is thumb rod tension, versus this drum, which is a single rod tension but it's self-aligning versus double tension. That was much more important and much more critical to companies like Ludwig and Ludwig and Leedy and Nokes and Nikolai. Yeah, so they can stand to lose the page of bird whistles but they focus then more on the details of the emerging technology and different tunings and all that kind of stuff, right? Right, and it doesn't take a lot. A quail whistle looks a lot like a bob white whistle, looks a lot like a dove call, looks a lot like, and everybody, I think they were common enough that people knew what they looked like. All you needed was just a line to describe it. This is what it is. This is the sound it makes. Here's the cost. So hen cackled this much, cow ball this much, all sorts of different kinds of sounds. Squawker was a little more unique looking and so they really needed a picture of that until it was either popular or no longer used. Wow, yeah, you gotta have the squawker in there. That's for sure. Yeah, well it doubles as a hen and a pig and a couple of different things. It was a versatile little instrument. Yeah, it seems like with all of these, like being in this world, being a trap drummer, you gotta say that you gotta know, you can use this for a bunch of different things. You hit this a certain way on the side and that's that. So it's about being versatile and knowing how to get all the sounds out of these different instruments. Right, right, a cow ball, which is, it's spelled B-A-W-L, so like somebody's balling, right? And it's that moo sound and it's a long metal tube that has a reed inside of it. And some of the cow balls were built in such a way that you could kind of vibrate the end of it with your hand, kind of shake it in your hand, this tube, and you could make it sound like a horse whinny as well. Now, not every brand of cow balls did this. So it's like, you know, you had to be a discerning trap drummer to save yourself some money and to, not only that, but to minimize how difficult it was to get all of your gear to the gig, which is, again, the same challenge that we have today. Same challenge today. That's the key of this whole thing is drummers or drummers. These guys are getting, they're fighting against their version of a drum machine and programming and trying to, they're losing their gigs to technology. I mean, it is, I think that's the biggest thing I learned today is that there's no difference between us. We're just, it's just a different kind of gear and you're fighting with, they had their whole different world of problems with tuning and tack heads and all this and stuff. Absolutely, and you know, when you are a person who has a job at a theater, let's say, and you don't own a car either because you don't have one yet or because they're not invented yet, you know, how are you getting your stuff to the gig? Yeah, really. Because you still have to get you and your gear to the gig. Yeah. And so if you're on a cable car system, well, how much can you carry because you're only allowed to take you and what you can carry. And there's probably another drummer right behind you who will find a better way to get it there and he wants your gig, which again is the same as today. That's right. That's right. He's a little more portable than you or he shows up on time because he's not relying on a horse that doesn't want to move today or whatever. You know, there are, again, it's the same situation as we are today. Well, Kelly, where can people find you? Like what's the best way to watch your videos and to hear about what you're doing as a clinician and just where can people find you? People can find me on my website, which is www.kellyraytubs.com. And I've got links to the videos there. I have links to upcoming events like clinics, like, you know, big performances. Oh, let's see. And then also a YouTube channel. So you can just type in the name Kelly Ray Tubbs and they can find me there as well. I can find currently 18 different historical videos. So some of those feature the history of the early drum set components from the early drum set, not so much the history of the drum set, but a little deep dive, a miniature deep dive, into things like the woodblock and how we in the United States put it onto our drum sets and cymbals and how that changed from the orchestral use of cymbals to a little bit closer to how we use them today, particularly the hi-hat. The foot sock, I loved it. And I actually referenced your video in an episode I did about Zildjian, which is the first one I did, which I'll probably release it. It's different format, but I give you a nice, give you a little shout out in that one, just cause I, like I said, if you find these videos, prepare to sit there and watch every single one of them because they are so interesting and so well done. I mean, really, it is impressive, the amount. You can tell the amount of love and care that you put into making them. I mean, I really do love it. And I want to spell, so it's K- Hello, well thank you. K-E-L-L-I-R-A-E-T-U-B-B-S, just to help people find it. Kelly Ray Tubbs, and you can find her all over the place. And Kelly, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. You are a wealth of information and I would love to have you back and we can talk about some different stuff. I mean, there's so many doing this podcast. It is just so many, every little detail, like the hi-hat will probably do something on that. There's just, it's endless. Well, thank you very much for the kind words, first of all, and I've had a blast, so I would love to come back. Anytime you need me, let me know. Awesome, thank you, Kelly, so much. Have a great day. Thanks, you too. I want to give a huge thank you to Kelly for taking the time to talk with us today. If you like this podcast, find me on all the social media platforms at Drum History. And please share, rate, and leave a review of the podcast. And also, let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future. Until next time, keep on learning. This is a Gwynn Sound podcast.