 Welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad you're here for another amazing episode with another amazing guest. Today we have with us Beth Napleton, CEO of Beth Napleton Consulting. And this is a really exciting conversation, Julia, because Beth is here to talk to us about understanding self-care for our nonprofit team. So Beth, first of all, kudos to you. Excited you're talking about this. Excited to have you on the show to talk about this because I personally know I need some self-care and I think we all do. So I'm looking forward to this conversation. But we want to remind our viewers and our listeners who we are and the voices that you might be listening to. So hello to you, Julia Patrick, as you take a sip of your coffee or gin or water, whatever that might be. It's water, but I wish it were gin. This would be a more fun show. That's right. Julia is the CEO at the American Nonprofit Academy. And I'm Jarrett Ransom, her trusty sidekick, as she refers to me, which I love. Also nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group. And we are so honored to stay by your side day in and day out. Thank you also to our trusty, loyal, dedicated, presenting sponsors. So a huge shout out to our besties over at Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy, fundraising academy at National University, nonprofit thought leader, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. I encourage you, and if I could assign homework, I would assign the homework to check these companies out because they're amazing. They also join us each month, at least a representative, if not weekly for some of them, join us for additional conversations to provide this free educational platform and conversational style to you. And they've helped us produce now nearly 900 episodes. I think we're gonna cross the finish line, not the finish line, we're at the mark of a thousand this year. So I really think we're gonna do that. I just picture us like breaking through that ribbon, you know, like, so if you, I know, if you haven't downloaded the app, you can do that if you're watching the screen at this moment, go ahead and scan that QR code, Vanna White, just pulled up her phone so you can see that. And it will tell you in just a couple of hours that Beth's episode has been loaded. And if you listen to us on podcast and broadcast platforms, thank you, you can still find us there too. We haven't left, so. Beth, we are thrilled to have you. This is when I introduce you to all of our viewers and listeners around the globe. So again, Beth Napleton, CEO of Beth Napleton Consulting. Welcome to you. It's no good to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Now, this is such an important conversation to be having. And I know that Jared and I talked about this privately a lot about, you know, how do we navigate our stress and our concern and family leadership and business leadership and community leadership. And it goes on and on and on. And I feel like we talked a lot about this in a different way during COVID. And then it was like, oh, COVID's over. Okay, snap back. Good to go. You know, stress is gone. It's just regular work. It just got here. Yeah. And it's like, wait a minute. That's the wrong attitude. So this will be fun to talk to you about this. Absolutely. I mean, I think this is particularly a mission-driven organizations and in nonprofits and where people are kind of working for a cause larger than themselves. There's always a tension between, right, how much can I do and how much do I give and what are the various resources at my disposal? And so I think this is something that unfortunately has not, you know, disappeared along with the COVID times and the quarantines. It's here to stay. Yeah. And it existed before, but, you know, we just don't talk about it. And it seems like we're being weak. And so the first question I have for you is how do we recognize stress in not only in ourself, but really within our teams? I mean, I think you made a great point, Julia, before we went on air, which is that oftentimes leaders recognize this when it's like reached a boiling point, right? Somebody resigns and quits. People have what might be described as a tantrum or a four-year-old to have it, right? Like meetings explode, people snap. And, you know, I think it is, this is something that I work with leaders and my work as an executive coach and consultant all the time on how do you start to recognize those warning signs? Like that doesn't happen in a vacuum, right? And just like I became a mom 11 years ago and I was learning how to, you know, handle a baby. And before my daughter started screaming, screaming, screaming and I was like, what happened? I learned to read her cues, right? What were the signs that she was a little hungry? What were the signs that it was time for me to start thinking about getting us in a position where she could eat? And I think there are the same cues that your employees offer you too, right? You know, the time someone explodes isn't usually the first time there have been some warning signs. And so I think that a lot of times my work with leaders starts with a couple of things. And one is pay attention, right? Just start looking around. Sometimes we're so head in the weeds and go, go, go. And it's like, I encourage people try to take like five or 10 minutes a day and like, just kind of reserve. Like you're a bird watcher, but you're watching your team, right? What's going to be slack? Who's been snippy, right? If you're working in a physical office, are you walk around and kind of, are people's brows furrowed or are they smiling and open? Just kind of take the temperature and see what's happening. Who maybe isn't like themselves. And that also, by the way, applies to yourself. Like you have to be able to observe yourself. I mean, like, I'm a little cut back to you today. Okay, what's going into this, you know? And I think that that is a really big piece of this. And that I think also sometimes people are afraid to name it, right? Like it's almost like Baltimore and Harry Potter. Like we can't say its name. It gives it so much power. And it's like, actually you are giving it more power by doing that, right? And what you have to do is name it. And it's okay to say, hey, sorry, I'm a little snippy today. I didn't get great sleep last night. Or I'm actually really preoccupied with something going on in my personal life. And so I'm sorry, it's based out for a minute there. Or gosh, like, Jira, you don't seem like yourself, right? Is everything okay? And so I think sometimes people think, or leaders think, I don't know if I can say it or talk about it or will it open up this can of worms? Will people just start crying, right? I mean, the number of leaders we talk about too. Okay, they're a part of the human experience. They show up at work sometimes. It's maybe not your favorite part of leadership, but it's there. And so I think that that is, it's really important just to start to look around. And the signs may look different for different people and in different industries. But we also know enough to know that, hey, if we are throwing like a big gallon next week, there probably is a certain amount of work stress that is going on. And it's okay to say, hey, we're in the season. I recognize and see your hard work. It's gonna feel so good next Saturday when we've met our goal, right? And you can kind of name and recognize that and help people through this. Beth, you made a really good comment, right? Like I just want to acknowledge, like, you know, the tears, Shin, kind of like other things in your personal life are gone the days when you leave life at home and work at work, right? Where it's like, I remember being raised in that time and I personally don't subscribe to it. Where it's like, no, you leave everything in your personal life at the door. You don't bring it in. Does that still exist? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a fascinating question and there's probably a great researcher out there who could talk about like generational differences and post-COVID, I do think we've become more willing to talk about kind of our mental health and how we're doing in our whole self. And what I always talk about with leaders that I work with is I think that, you know, it is important to be who you truly are because when you're authentic self, you are going to lead more genuinely and more joyfully. And that does not mean that I am the same person at work that I am at home, right? But there are parts of my entity that overlap and so I'll sometimes talk with leaders about, maybe pick a few areas that you feel very comfortable being open about, your family, your love of this music band, your training for the marathon, whatever it is. And that allows people to let a little bit of their personal lives into themselves at work and that feels like I am who I am. And then you have the same way that you also probably go home and over dinner might say to your partner or your kids, like, oh, that meeting today went really well that I was nervous about. I'm talking to them and like debriefing it all the way down the list, but I'm bringing a little bit into each sphere. And I think that's okay. And the reason is, is because, you know, it's my same brain and it's my same body going from home to work. So I can't actually separate it. That would be great if I could some days. But it is, of course, if I, you know, witnessed, I mean, one morning I remember one of my teachers came to work at the school that I founded and she had seen someone get hit by a bike on her way to school or a bike accident, a biker get hit by a car and she was really shaken up. I said, shh, shh, shh, shh, shaken up. That was, you know, this is a very disturbing event. Tretches, but. Let's take 15 minutes, right? Let's like go, like here's a box of Kleenex. Let me cover your class. What can we do? Because we are full human selves at work and at home. Even if we try really, really hard not to be, we can't stop being our full selves. I appreciate that perspective so much. I really do. And I, you know, watching the news last night, talking about the rise of mental health and mental health awareness. I mean, it's all the way up to our president talking about it, right? And so are there negative connotations, right? When it comes to self-care and how we're dealing with this, you know, with our leaders. And for me, leaders are like every person. I believe every person has leadership, you know, qualities. So like what are the negative connotations? Because one of the things I see is I haven't taken a vacation in four years and then talk about it. And like that to me is like a huge red flag. Mm-hmm, absolutely. And I think that, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. And I think all of this is so tied up in our attitude towards work and how we were raised. And some of our, you know, most of us work for lots of reasons, one of which is our salary. And so our attitude towards money and spending and strats. Like they're just like so much that gets kind of bundled into this jumble. And I think that part of this is really about, I mean, there's a saying, right? You cannot pour from an empty cup. And I feel like it's that idea of like, if I want to be able to take care of others, which if I work in a nonprofit, there is some part of me that does, right? No matter what it is. Or if I'm a human with a family or, you know, a cat or whatever, I need to be able to take care of myself and make sure that I have enough in my tank to be able to take care of others. And I think that is just so important. And the reality is, is that, you know, sometimes people will say, but it could be so much worse. And it's like, of course it could be, right? Like absolutely, right? Like, you know, and that, but it also, and it's good to admit that can be a helpful tool. And it's also helpful to say, but also I'm feeling pretty yucky right now too. And that's okay. Right? Your story doesn't have to be the worst story in the world for you to be able to do this. And I think that, you know, when I think about self-care, it is about this like, and you know, your comment about I haven't taken a vacation in five years, it is that, well, how are you refilling your cup? Right? Imagine, like you think that you have great ideas now, imagine if you took some time to unplug, right? You think you're pleasant to chat with now, imagine if you had just come back from a week at the beach, right? And like, I think sometimes it can feel like, I remember even early in my own career, it seemed like, but there's so much to do and there's so much this. And like, at some point, you know, I spent a lot of my early career working on closing the opportunity gap in education. And at some point, a friend and mentor of mine was like, you know, that like, you now working on Sunday night is actually like not gonna be the thing that keeps this gap perpetuated. This is a complex thorny issue and the work will be there tomorrow. And it's okay to take time to recharge yourself because that's going to allow you to come back tomorrow, better equipped to tackle the problems that we're working on. So I've gotta ask this question because, I mean, I know we're both chomping. I know, I've got questions for you. Because, you know, I, Jared and I are 20 years to the week in age difference, right? I'm older. Yeah, she's so like, but she looks good. She looks good. I gotta say. You both look fab. It like, like you imagine her or something. Well, thank you. But I gotta say, I totally disagree with Jared on this. And we've talked about this before about where you come to the office and where you come to work. And so I believe, and this is, yeah, I think this is generational. Yeah. Where you go. And I think also because I entered the workforce when women were not normal in the workforce, like this, right? So I have a whole bunch of baggage, yada, yada, yada. But my question to you is about gender. Because it seems to me that we have this discussion with women and female leaders and female staff of nonprofits. But when I'm with men, I never hear them talk about this. I can see them exhibiting signs of stress. But Jared, I mean, what do you think? Do you ever hear men say, oh, I mean, you know, self-care. I mean, what, you don't hear that. And I think if you were a female and you heard that, you might be a little suspect too. You might be like, oh, you know, whereas when you hear women say that, we give them grace. And so I'm just wondering like, what do you see in that ecosystem of gender? Yeah, I mean, I think there is so much around gender and different identity markers, right? Race, class, like all kinds of things, age, that come into all of our aspects of how we are at work. And, you know, it's interesting because most of my nonprofit experience is an education and education adjacent spaces, which are probably 75% women. Not at leadership levels, which is a whole different conversation. So I think I've always worked in these kind of women dominated environments. And, you know, it's interesting. I remember once reading a study and it talked about, it was in corporate America, so it was different, but I think there's valuable takeaways. And it talked about basically when mothers and fathers took time off to like, you know, go to the soccer game or the awards assembly. And basically the main difference was the men wouldn't say anything about it. They would just like log off their computer, go to the assembly and come back. They wouldn't talk about it. They wouldn't tell. They would just do it and that was fine. And the women would be like, I'm gonna be out. And if you need anything here, then here's myself or whatever. And like also drew attention to it. And so, and it's not to say like, I think that we should talk about these things. I think it's like a powerful model for everyone. If they know that the boss is taking time to go to the soccer game, like I think there's a lot to be said. And I think also there's like some interesting reflections and to what extent is talking about it, sometimes maybe hurting us depending on the particulars of our environment versus, you know, doing it for ourselves and what really matters. But I do think, I mean, I think in general, it's fair to say that men maybe aren't as comfortable talking about feelings or thinking about needs or kind of bringing that self and blurring that line. And so in some ways it's, you know, and there's questions there like, is it why, why does it fall on moms yet again? Or women to be the one saying like, I need to be able to go to the soccer game. And maybe if you would speak up and say that you did this, this would actually make it a lot easier for all of us. But I think that's kind of tied into lots of complicated notions about masculinity. Reach it, Beth. Just keep, there's a lot in there, right? I am fascinated by that because I think you're right. I think you're right. I mean, look at just in this time of this season with vacations and time off, look at how women will be very detailed about what's going on and what they're doing and why they're off. And men just don't answer their email, right? Yeah. They do it at all. I like the dose of that sometimes, right? Like we put all these little bit of that sprinkled around. It's really, I appreciate you bringing that up because I don't think I'd really identified that, but I think you're absolutely right. You know, I think I'm seeing more and more, I play a lot in the LinkedIn space and we've had a lot of, you know, male identified leaders that have spoken out, you know, about their own mental wellness, illnesses, diagnoses, right? Like taken time to be with their family. We're seeing it more and especially, you know, I also want to call out the gender fluidity that has become extremely mainstream. You know, I think we're blending that a lot. And so whether it's inspirational or it's becoming more accepting, right? In so many ways. Yeah, we could talk about this for hours. Well, and I think, I know, well, one, I mean, it's one of the reasons Prince Harry's book is great, but Rocket is very comfortable. And when I think about, I agree with you, Jared, that everyone can be a leader and it comes from all areas. And when I work with CEOs and executive directors and people are like the head honcho, it's one of the reasons we talk about, it is so important to be vocal about this because when you say, no, really, I'm not checking my email, I'm saying this, you are giving permission to everyone in your organization to act the same way. Yeah, you're modeling. We see someone saying, I'm taking paternity leave. I'll be offline. Here's a picture of me with my baby. It sends a really powerful message, right? And I think that is helpful to start to accelerate some change that we want to see societally. Yeah, I agreed. It's really modeling that behavior and saying, hey, I'm doing this too. And I encourage and embrace you to do the same. All right, let's move into like, how do we enact and promote self-care for the team? Because back to that, you know, braggadocious, I haven't taken a vacation for four years. And then on the flip side, Beth, there's a lot of organizations, two things that are, one, going to unlimited PTO. And it may be not nonprofits, but more for-for profits. And then also like, go into four-day work weeks. So how do we promote and enact this within our teams? That's so interesting. I actually, my company has a four-day work week. And so it's interesting to, we're at the very beginning growing stages, but I think that there's a lot of good juice in there. And so, you know, I think that, and I again, mostly work with executive directors and CEOs. And so that's kind of lens I'm thinking about from this question. And it doesn't mean that everyone couldn't do this or team leaders or different folks, but I think that there's just a lot of influence that comes from the top. So the first thing I think that is important is like, one, let's define self-care. And I think this is actually incredibly important because we say it and, you know, the image comes to mind of like, face mask, spa, bubble bath, like sipping wine at one o'clock. And I think that it's really important to say self-care means a range of things. And it is probably different. There are three women on this call and we probably have three different definitions. Maybe taking a walk really rejuvenates me, but Julia, like you could give a hoot about that. But my gosh, like you could watch the baking show and you would just be back to life, right? Like, I don't know, right? Like we're all different. And by the way, your manager and leader doesn't know that either because they aren't you and they cannot read your mind. No matter how good they are, nobody's manager is a mind reader. And so I think that, you know, it's really important to say this is what we mean. This is what we think about. And I think about the analogy of like putting gas in your tank, right? What really fills you up? What gives you a little bit of gas? What gives you a lot of gas? And I think that kind of helps to say this is what we mean. And I think that when you do that and define then, say this is what it means at this organization, then you start to underline and name and say this is important to us here. And the reason it's important to us is because when you put gas in your tank, our organizational car can go further and we don't want our car to run out of gas. And there's lots of reasons that our car can stop on the side of the road. Our engine could break, right? We, our funders could break down, a lots of things, but let's, we know we can prevent stopping from running out of gas. And so we also know that if we focus on our wellbeing and our ability to care for ourselves, at least that will not be the reason we're stuck on the side of the road if that ever happens. And so I think that it is helpful to say and people will say, but our goals are to reach this and we want to get to there. And there's a tension there, right? My job as a leader of the organization is not to have the most well-balanced, satisfied team. My goal is to reduce inequity or to increase the number of black men in teaching or like you name it, whatever the cause of your nonprofit is. And so I think that you can say, yeah, this actually can be a tension, but we have to do both and we're really smart people and we can figure out how to do both. And it's probably not gonna be exactly even every single day. Some days kind of commitment to the goals might weigh out, but then maybe you take a nice vacation and you forget about work for a week and you go back and forth between these two. And so I think that sometimes I'll work with teams and do professional development series for teams where we'll talk about giving people reflection time, what really recharges you and what's your kind of like gold star one that like works every time and what's kind of like good enough. And then how do you look at that against like, look, a good beach vacation always rejuvenates me, but I cannot always go take a beach vacation for finances, time, PTO, but I can go like for a walk and listen to Bruce Springsteen, which 10 minutes that will help me get back to my next meeting in a slightly better place than the one I just left super frustrated. And so I think that there's a lot that leaders can do to explore the definition, what it means, reflect, take time. And even just by having this conversation, it kind of help opens you up to like, this is something we discuss and we talk about here, right? Which I think is really powerful. I love your concept of the degrees. Like what is, you know, what's the degree? Yeah, you can't always go to walk on the beach, but what is, okay, so you can't do that. So then what's the next level and what's the next degree? I think that's really masterful because I know myself, I'll be like, yeah, I mean, hopefully I'll get to that beach in the next two months. Right, right, exactly in two weeks. And it's like, honestly, the number of people who say, if I could just eat lunch, not at my desk, that would like actually help me feel pretty good all day. And then it was like, I could say, great, go, please. Don't let us stop you. Like, did you see that park nearby? Go. And I think that sometimes it's those things, it's like, you know, oh gosh, like it would feel like good self care if I didn't, you know, check my email at night. Okay, well, we should talk about that. You shouldn't be checking your email at night. Well, the notifications go off. Well, let's take out your phone right now and turn off the notifications because if it is urgent enough, I will call you. Yeah. I always will find you if it really can't wait. I have certainly done that, Beth, for my own sanity is to take emails off my phone, night, just so it doesn't notify me. We don't have much time and we still have a lot to cover, but I'm curious to talk about budget because as we talk about self care, promoting this within our teams, how do we budget for this? What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, I think and resources are always fine. I write even in the most resource rich organizations. And so I think this is a great question. And I think it in some ways connects back to my earlier question, which is that in many ways, having this conversation with your team, whether you bring in an outside expert or kind of just bootlegged and say, how would we define this? What is like always works for you? What could you do every day versus what is more of a like once a season or once a year kind of activity? And how do these things play against each other and giving people that time and space? And so I think that when we think about options like that, you'll learn a lot and uncover that as a leader, right? And so when I learned that, you know, one of my team members, if she went dancing once a week, that was when she felt like her best self. So guess what I put at the top of our checking agenda every week? When's the last time you danced? That's free, right? That took a little bit of like, all it is is saying, checking in, having those conversations. And so, you know, I think that there can be some really like low cost ways. People will do like, you know, little $10 boxes of candy for Valentine's Day, right? Little, you know, a note on the desk can be free. And so I think that there are, look, anytime you start to look at this, I think you get into issues of like, huh, well, we've been having junior staff share hotel rooms on travel and it would cost a lot of money to get single rooms, but people are telling us this would actually help them feel more balanced. So let's pay for single rooms or let's also think about, you know, in that, you know, week conference, can we plan a fun activity, right? Is a local place for team bonding that kind of is, you know, mandatory fun. But it is a way for people to connect. And so I think that in a lot of ways, this doesn't have to be a big budget item. I don't think you have to think about robbing one person to pay another, right? And sometimes I think about professional development, which is a separate but connected element of nurturing wellbeing. So that's maybe a different day. I can come back and talk about that and how you can think about those interests. But I think that honestly, it is amazing what it can do for people's, you know, to say, hey, we've all been working really hard. We're gonna take, I want you to take a comp day next week after having worked at this benefit on Friday night. Or, hey, we actually, I looked at the agenda for this meeting. We don't have anything to discuss. I am going to cancel it. Please do one for this time. And maybe what you do for yourself is you work and get ahead and whatever, right? But like that's free. And so I think sometimes people feel like this is gonna take so much. And there's, you know, the local massage college will have interns who can come in for 50 bucks, can give 10 people massages, right? Like you can explore some of those like extra, extras as well. And those can be great. But at the same time, I don't think it takes the place of just really genuinely noticing what people are stressed and just trying to respond to it with what they need. Absolutely. So many good nuggets of information in today's conversation. And I'm gonna hold you to it. I know Julia supports us as well to coming back on to talk to you about some other, another important issues, because self-care is important. Personal development is important. Our sector is so very important. So how do we attract and retain and maintain, you know, everyone's self-care, mental, mental health, you know, as we worked on some really critical issues around the world. Totally. Well, I am thrilled to come back and I will say, if it's helpful to your listeners, I also have a self-care calendar on my website. So my website's up now, BethNapolson.com. But sometimes people, cause what I can hear people thinking in their head is like, yeah, I don't think my manager is gonna be calling that meeting anytime soon. So what do I do now? And so it's just the easy tool that you can do. You can start any day that helps you make sure, am I putting up gas in my tank? How do I prevent my low fuel life from going off? Because I don't wanna run out of gas. You don't want me to run out of gas. We all share that goal. And so how do we kind of keep that moving? So they can go to my website. It's right at the bottom and grab it there if it's useful. I love that. BethNapolson.com, you can check out more about Beth and take a look at that amazing tool that she has that's available to our viewers and our listeners for free. Yeah, Beth, this has been great. You know, Jared and I have been in the thick of this pandemic and we get to see so much of what's going around, going on and around in this country. And this is one of those things that you can see but you can't always define but you can kind of understand. And then we have it individually and then we have it with each other. I mean, it's such a big topic and so I'm just thrilled that we could get your insights today and learn more about it because this isn't going away, folks. This is really where we need to be and what we need to be understanding in order to have our teams be successful. And I love your description of keeping that gas tank full and not letting the light come on because that's a tough place to be. Hey everybody, again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy, been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared R. Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, we are here because we have amazing support from our presenting sponsors and they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out as we march towards 900 episodes. Okay, Beth, you inspired me. I'm going to be really thinking a lot about what you said and I can't wait to have you back on. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you both so much for having me. It's been a lot of fun. Hey everybody, as we end every episode and it actually means a little something different to me today and we've been saying this now for four years and our message is this, to stay well, so you can do well. See you back here tomorrow everyone. Thanks so much ladies.