 Good afternoon everybody. My name is Hadley Gamble. I am CNBC's senior anchor and international correspondent It's fantastic to welcome you all here to the World Economic Forum and to welcome this gentleman his excellency Ukraine's foreign minister Dimitri Kulubov sir. Thank you so much for joining us at such a crucial time for your country It's my pleasure and thank you all for coming. I want to kick off by asking you to Respond directly from or to the comments made just a couple of days ago by Henry Kissinger He's essentially said that Ukraine must give up territory in order for Vladimir Putin to save face. I Respect Henry Kissinger, but I appreciate that he's not holding any official position in the US administration He has his own opinion, but we strongly disagree with it and this is not something that we're gonna do In fact, I believe that this whole line About Ukraine who has to make a concession to stop the war failed From it had failed in the in between the 2014 and 2022 Because the policy was always okay. We have to convince Ukraine to be constructive To engage Russia to make a concession to engage Russia and it never worked and in the end it all it brought us all to To the biggest war in Europe since Second World War If it failed once it will fail twice So we would I don't even thinking rationally about this approach I believe it's float and it's not been a work, but a crushing defeat on a proud people Does not necessarily ever end well and I take you back to the First World War and the response to that of course was an Economic and social unrest for ten years in Germany the rise of fascism and it off Hitler in the Second World War So there seems to be some merit to what he's saying. No Well, if I remember history correctly The German army never admitted that they lost the war. They said they were betrayed by At home by the unwillingness of the people and the government to keep to keep fighting So of course, they will always be difference in the assessment of the situation between civilian civilians and and military The truth is I don't know this war is not a copy paste of any of the previous wars and will never be every war is special But what I know for sure is that there is no it's black and white. There is nothing in between it's either them or us and Everyone in the world has to make a choice. Where do they stand in terms of a negotiation in terms of a piece the last Time that you and I saw each other was in Antalya in Turkey That was a conversation that you had with your counterpart Sergei Lavrov that went nowhere Where are we today with the possibility of a negotiated piece? nowhere It's You know Russia is conducting a large-scale offensive in Donbas and this is the real, you know You can recall any movie about World War two and You can easily imagine what kind of battle is taking place now in Donbas tanks artillery combat helicopters air attacks multiple launch rocket systems everything is involved when You are conducting an operation like this. You basically say no to negotiations if Russia had preferred talks to War they would have behaved differently. Yeah Walk us through What you believe you need to win this war? Where is it coming from and are you getting enough support? I'm talking about from the United States from Europe in terms of weapons and money when you at war you literally need everything everything and Of course the key issues now The situation in terms of supplies is weapons supplies is much better compared to where We were even a month ago and it's worth commanding the United States For taking the lead on mobilizing international support and helping us with the supply of artillery for example in other weapons and this Rammstein format set by set up by secretary of defense. It's working So big thanks to the Biden administration to Secretary Austin Secretary Blinken for making it all happen But there is never a moment in the war when you can say, okay, we did our best. This is it As long as the war continues, it means that more needs to be done So now we are facing a big issue with multiple with the lack Critical lack of multiple launch rocket systems Russia has plenty of them and they cover squares of our territory with fire killing and destroying Everything so we need these weapons as soon as possible. We are desperately waiting for them to arrive on the financial front our economy suffering more from the Russian Destruction and Russian attacks then Russian economy suffers from sanctions I'm not trying to say the sanctions are useless But as long as Russia makes money on selling oil and gas their pockets are pretty full so we also need macro financial assistance to help the country running to keep the country afloat and The third the third element is actually again sanctions as I mentioned Russia feels pretty comfortable with current oil and gas prices and We have to seriously reconsider the sanctions policy Do you believe you're making any progress on that in terms of your European counterparts hungry? Obviously being the major holdout when it comes to sanctioning Russian oil for now There is there are you know, there are two ways to approach sanctions. The first one is to say, okay we will focus on oil and seek ways how to Stop the purchase of Russian oil There is another way you can do a more in-depth analysis and come to a conclusion for example that the vast majority of Russian oil sold To the global market is carried by by maritime Means so by vessels so if you sanctions if you tell shipping industry that everyone carry in Russian oil Anyway in the world Will face problems that will mean a big a big issue for Do you believe they should sanction the shipping industry my see my message now my mess I was very constructive and engaging and Always trying to understand concerns of partners where it came to sanctions But now after three months of fighting my message is very simple kill Russian exports As accept some critical critical items that the West needs but we need a broad strategy aimed not at Blocking this or this but the goal the strategic purpose should be kill Russian experts Stop buying from Russia stop allowing them to make money Which they then invest in the war machine that destroys kills rapes and tortures people in Ukraine Let's talk about the money a bit because we are here at the World Economic Forum Just a few days ago president Zelensky essentially saying that we needed as much as five hundred billion dollars to rebuild Ukraine That was in some estimates a conservative estimate frankly But when you talk about that kind of money, you know a year ago when we would talk about Ukraine We'd talk about it as one of the most corrupt countries in the world a country run by oligarchs today though Everybody's a hero But folks here at the forum who understand money we think Have real concerns about that kind of cash going to Ukraine how it's going to be used how it will be deployed and whether or not It's going to just end up in the pockets of an oligarch. How do you respond to that? Maybe guys here at the forum go as wrong on corruption as On their estimate that Ukraine will not survive three days because the Ukrainian army is corrupt everything is corrupt and they will fail I think the best evidence of the fact that the issue of corruption in Ukraine is Exaggerated it's actually the fact that we are still fighting if we had an uncapable state run by oligarchs and Corrupt bottom up We would not have sustained the pressure we would not have been sitting here and talking I think we are in the moment when we all Can it allow ourselves to be honest with each other? And if people are saying wow, we underestimated you on your capacity to defend yourself Perhaps the same people have to reconsider their stance on the scale and the threat of corruption in Ukraine Back to be back on track that everyone likes when Ukraine is covering its head with ashes Recognizes all of its disadvantages and everyone else is sitting and appreciating this act of self humiliation I can say that of course we are open to building All necessary mechanisms that will ensure transparency and efficiency of the use of costs that will be allocated for the reconstruction of Ukraine What we want to avoid in particular is also that some of this money will be lost on the way to Ukraine because of the numerous intermediaries involved in the in the financial seat in the financial model and this is why You know for example take the European Union. They are providing us with macro financial assistance $1.2 billion to go straight to the budget Right Would they be doing it if they had no trust in us? No, this is big amount of money for us 1.2 billion true But you already have the Germans for example pushing back on the idea of taking on debt To rebuild Ukraine. I mean they're actually the Germans They're essentially saying we can't ask our taxpayers at a time when oil prices gas prices through the roof to take on Debt for rebuilding Ukraine So you've already have difficulties there in terms of how much money you think you're going to end up getting from I I totally agree with you and I don't think that American German or any other taxpayer in the world has to pay for what Russia is did There is a way. There is an alternative way to To recover Ukraine. It's to make Russia pay for it And we're talking about the seizure of asset absolutely seizure seizure and transfer And this is why the European Commission has recently come up with certain initiatives on how to create the legal framework for that Canada passed the piece of law that Allows not only the seizure of assets, but also the transfer of those assets to the per to the recovery or to the project associated with Recovery of Ukraine make Russia pay for it. I mean we why everyone is trying to be merciful in Russia Why why some countries are or some leaders or some politicians are concerned that we We should not go too far in putting pressure on Russia Putin betrayed even those who tried to help him by launching a large-scale fool Open aggression against a sovereign country the aggression that will go into textbooks as the most apparent Example of an aggression of one country against another make Russia pay for it. There's a counter narrative Which is that? President Biden of course is called President Putin a war criminal There are those in this room, and there are those attending this forum in countries in the Middle East India The broader world beyond the West who would say actually it's President Zelensky That's the criminal for continuing a war that is killing his own people and costing the world a heck of a lot of money Because now we're not just talking about inflation stagflation the possibility of recession We're also talking about an energy crisis as you know, that's been ongoing for a long time and famine How do you respond to that? One has to be a political pervert to put blame on Ukraine for continue fighting against the country that attacked it against The army that committed unspeakable atrocities in Ukraine and against The country that's basically challenged the entire rule-based Order what we are having now is the permanent member of the United of the United Nations Security Council Who possess? Who possesses the nuclear weapons? Attacked another founding member of the United Nations a sovereign country for no good reason and Is trying to destroy it denying the right of this country to exist Now today which we saw the statement by the Russian official from the Russian Deputy Foreign Minister who said for example, Russia will unblock Ukrainian ports To allow exports of Ukrainian agricultural products to the global market if sanctions are imposed against Russia are lifted So this is a clear blackmail You could not find a better example of a blackmail in international relations if anyone is buying it I think there is a problem with that person And we shouldn't waste too much of time trying to to change to to understand why that person is making that point I understand what you say But does the whole world have to pay for the fact that Ukraine refuses to give up territory to Vladimir Putin? by famine by higher energy costs I Think that We live in a world where everyone can make Its own choice on what to do and what not to do some believed in the beginning of this war Some countries believe that this will never affect us. This is just Russia And Ukraine this is their fear now this can't some of these countries are already feeling the pressure of the food crisis And they feel the repercussions of this war on them And this is only the beginning and if we allow president Putin to continue his military madness The crisis will go deeper and deeper because let me just explain one thing where we're heading to If Russia does not lift its blockade So if we do not export our crops currently stored In the territory of Ukraine we will soon harvest another crop We will bring it and put it next To the current storages which are filled full And while there will be food crisis unfolding in some parts of the world Ukrainian grain will be getting rotten under open skies Now if this problem is not resolved Ukrainian farmers will not plant another crop And we will end and the whole agricultural cycle in Ukraine will be interrupted and that will mean a multi-year food crisis Now if anyone tries to say that it's Ukraine to blame for fighting for each other It's the same thing as you see a criminal and a victim who is fighting for survival and you blame the victim for fighting too much There's just been a report in the press that Vladimir Putin has decided to lift the retirement age of the military essentially say that he can keep more people in the Military for longer in terms of what's happening back at home How would you Assess the strength of Russia's military capabilities today Because they're undoubtedly lethal they they extremely strong when it comes to ground heavy weapons Artillery military Multi-launch multiple launch rocket systems all kinds of radio jamming tanks But not because they are more advanced than other similar weapons in the world But because they have a certain quantity of them that they can throw on us one wave after another Their morale the morale of the Russian soldiers is very low. They don't understand what they're fighting for But if you take if you imagine like a trench with Ukrainian soldiers who hold the ground one attack after another But on the other side there are commanders who send more and more soldiers and tanks and artillery and helicopters into the battle You cannot win if you do not get sufficient amount of heavy weapons to oppose them one day or sooner or later They will break the line and this is this is this is the risk and do you see President Putin like Stalin before him Willing to use his own people as cat and fodder This is the difference between us and them we care for human life, and he doesn't this is I think it's one of the conceptual differences between Ukrainians and Ukrainians and Ukrainian and Russian systems That for him human life is nothing well be it Russian soldier or Ukrainian civilian Not to mention Ukrainian soldiers, of course, and that's why in Donbas now the he for example, we hold the position Our soldiers repel attack kill thousands of Russian soldiers There is another wave coming they kill them and instead of changing the tactics rush Instead of changing the tactics Russian commanders or there are more and more of their soldiers to go into the battle What about the loss Eventually of public support when Ukraine is not necessarily on front page news anymore It's not leading the news in the evenings or in the day times. It's not on Instagram It's not on Twitter You've been very very active on social media, and that's all no doubt helped your cause But when you think about what happens next look at Syria I understand that we all live in a big TV show and the situation to a large extent depends on what people see on on television and on their social media the difference between Such people who are it's hard to blame them and us is that they can afford Getting bored and we can't so even if the entire world Changes refocuses its attention to another catastrophe or another war or something We will have to continue fighting whatever it costs with whatever it The cost will be because this is the war for our existence as a nation for our identity And that's why you know there is no gray zone in this war. It's either black or white It's it's black on or white and we are the white ones Donor fatigue. Are you already experiencing that to a sense when you speak to European counterparts in the US? Not really not really I don't I don't see the fatigue But some decisions take too much time to make and we are talking about Brussels The and the price for every delayed decision be it Brussels Berlin Washington or any other capital is The loss of life and loss of territory So what seems to be just a decision-making process for some is real blood tears and sufferings for us It's it's I must tell you that we saw since since 24th of February. We saw some Revolutionary decisions made in Washington And I remember calling secretary blinking one day and he said Mitra Half of my day is signing is about signing different papers related to supplying weapons to you And I will always remember what he did and what he keeps doing. I really appreciate that But some some countries were Dragging their feet on the issue of supplying us with All the necessary weapons that we see we're talking about Germany We simply lost time and and and some small pieces of our territory Allow me to be a diplomat to remain a diplomat at least here, but But I can make you I can tell you honestly that Often quite often we heard that you know Countries are reluctant to give us certain weapons because anyway it will take too long for Ukrainian soldiers to train how to use them and therefore There's this is not something urgent and At certain point I said to a foreign minister Of one of one country and I keep saying it every time I hear this argument that guys It takes Much less time for Ukrainian soldier to get trained on your weapons than for you to make a decision to hand over that weapon to us So but again, I don't want to complain the situation now is much better compared to one month ago. Yeah President Macron Continues to have a dialogue with President Putin. Do you believe that's counterproductive? I believe it doesn't mean somebody be negotiating for Ukraine without no one is negotiating for Ukraine without Ukraine but I think that some you know the very the European political culture is based on the principle of dialogue and President Macron called president Putin many times Before the war and we are still where we are so he keeps calling him and talking with him Fine, we we do not see that he's compromising us in his conversation with Putin if he believes this is this helps He can continue doing it with his he runs a sovereign nation and he believes he does what he believes is the best But we don't see a lot of sense in it What about NATO today? We're talking now about Finland and about Sweden becoming a part of NATO and President Putin again and again warned that if they were to take that decision There would be problems. There would be repercussions now turkeys a holdout at this point But I'm told that that's only a matter of time before they Decide that Finland and Sweden can be a part of NATO What's your take on that because when we first met at the end of last year We talked about Ukraine's ambitions for NATO and for Europe and you said if we were a part of NATO right now We wouldn't even be having this conversation Thank you for Memorizing my words. That's really nice of you and yes, I can say it again. I believe that Sweden and Finland understand now understand Ukraine Much better even better than they did because they feel now they know now How it feels when you are trying to get into to join the club and a member of that club is like saying I have questions I have issues about that but seriously I don't think Putin has any serious leverage to prevent Finland or Sweden from becoming members of NATO and that once again proves that the whole Discourse about Ukraine not being ready to get Ukraine on board or NATO not being ready is not based on On specific merits, it's based on the political understanding of who belongs with us And who doesn't? The NATO is about to absorb a country that has like what around about one Many hundreds kilometers of joint border with Russia Right next to Saint Petersburg and no one is taking care of all the arguments that Putin is making about the speed of the missile And the vicinity of the NATO military base to the capital to the capsule of Russia When it comes to Ukraine the moment you raise the issue you immediately hear hundreds of arguments why this is impossible Yes, people were saying our army is not ready. Look at our army. It's the strongest. It's now the strongest army in Europe. I Mean among the among the European nations. We do not compete with the Americans For obvious reasons NATO standards We are fighting a war against someone who is much bigger than us and Knock on the wood. We are more successful than anyone expected So all these technical discussions about standards criteria, you know once there is a political decision that these guys belong to us We are part of the same Everything else follows As long as there is no such political decision you are hearing hundreds of arguments why this is impossible We understand how this business works But I believe that many in NATO lost moral and professional ground to make any comments with regard to Ukraine Do you believe that you will ever be part of NATO? Now I'm focused on something completely different, you know, we are not focused on winning the war and You know, my people criticize me for saying that NATO did nothing since the beginning of the war and My experts my NATO experts. They say I have to be more constructive, but I am constructive My point is very simple. We see allies Helping Ukraine out. We see this group of allies NATO allies helping us But in the beginning of the war the people of Ukraine it was a public sentiment They believed that NATO is the strong force and EU is only capable of expressing different various levels of concern and that's it But the war is always a test that rips masks off and We all saw real faces. What we saw are some revolutionary ground-breaking decisions taken by the European Union Which even they themselves did not expect to make and We see NATO as an alliance as an institution Sidelined and doing literally Nothing, I'm sorry to say it. I do not complain on allies. Do you see them as irrelevant? No, I think it's I think it's actually the decision of the allies themselves No, I mean not to do it not not to allow NATO as an institution to act under these circumstances Because for their for their concerns which they have like NATO Russia at war all this stuff But again when it comes to accommodating Finland and Sweden No one is making the point that this increases the risk of NATO and Russia coming at war with each other So there is a little element of hypocrisy in this. I understand it. This is life We as a country, you know, we spend 30 years fighting prejudices and stereotypes In attitudes towards Ukraine so I can live with it. Don't get me wrong I think NATO is important the European integration of Ukraine to NATO is part of our constitution Jens Stoltenberg as Secretary-General is a man who really does his best But we see that these circumstances are not the good ones for for NATO to show its best and Therefore we can speak openly about the status quo I want to ask you about oil and the OPEC plus group. Do you believe that they have made the right decision to Continue to include Russia as part of that alliance In the first two months of the war I became an expert in weapons And I spent the last months of the war becoming an expert in oil and global oil market So you can rival me excellent. No, no Still far ahead of me, but at least I know that if I get fired I will find myself a job Either selling weapons or or doing well helping with oil business I Think it's complicated. I think the oil thing is more complicated than people than people think and The issue now in my view is not in the amount of oil available on the market But in the logistical capacity of the global market to to restructure itself to the new reality we are facing and I still have I'm still Trying to understand this market in all details, which will help me to come to a Judgment on the position of one country or OPEC plus as as an organization So your message to them My message to them is very simple if you're making first if you're making extra profits because of the High prices This is the only reason for that is because Ukraine is suffering Because it's the war the Russian aggression that brought this change the to be honest We were in an energy crisis long before the war second second whatever Your second work with Europe to help them overcome Current difficulties with oil and then gas Because I think you're one of the lessons that Europe learned Since 24th of February is that Russia uses oil and gas as a weapon for many decades Russia's strategy was to convince everyone in Europe that they are reliable suppliers This is not the case anymore And I think that the Europeans realize that that they cannot trust Russia and they want to diversify So it's really important to help for other countries who belong to OPEC except Russia, of course To help Europe restructure its energy balance and solve at least some of the issues that are solvable That's what I would want them to focus This the situation now is ridiculous because what is happening is the following Europe is allocating huge amount of money To help Ukraine on a parallel track They pay even more to Russia for gas and oil Russia is investing this money into its war machine this war machine This inflicts more damage on Ukraine and The Europeans are allocating even more money to mitigate the consequences of this war So it's a vicious circle that has to be broken Is there a point when you believe that Ukraine will start exporting its own energy? And I'm talking about electricity because I understand that that's tied up in the parliament at this point Yes, there's no this is one of the good things happening. There are very few Good things happening in Ukrainian economy. I have to be frank with you but one of the good things is that European Union accepted us as part of the joint Electricity grid and so we and we are heading I think we are kind of one months away from actually becoming a participant on the market and Next now to in two weeks, we will be for example in two weeks We will I will be seeing foreign ministers of some European countries with whom we will be discussing the Export of Ukrainian electricity to the EU market because we make EU electricity grid more sustainable and This is something that really makes it's a win-win situation for both Ukraine and the European Union and then when it comes to exports I don't think we will ever become exporters of gas Not to mention oil because we produce gas but not oil in sufficient quantities But I think we should seriously look into renewables, especially in green hydrogen the European Union sees us as the Production facility for green hydrogen and this is something that we will definitely be able to export to once all necessary Infrastructure is put in place your excellent seat before I let you go At the conclusion of most of our interviews and I think we've spoken about four times prior to the invasion and since then I often will ask you do you believe that this is a war that you can win and you've consistently told me not only will We win but we must win What's your assessment today of how long president Putin can keep this up because wars are expensive His military not doing that. Well, although as you say he continues to just throw people into into the can is mouth But there are economic and social and frankly even bigger than that world consequences to what he's doing This war is the war of sustainability Putin believes that we will collapse before he does. I mean we as a country So we cannot allow thinking about timelines. No, this is definitely Again, not the case because as I said, this is the war for our existence and for our identity It's not just an economic conflict or a piece of land or a source of revenue This is a war for identity. This is the war between Russia as a state and the people of Ukraine and I think it's impossible to win a war against the people No end in sight You know one of my favorite sayings is that if you see the light in the end of the tunnel Make sure it's not the light from an incoming train So there is always something in the site, but I'm not sure whether it's the end or the incoming train Your excellency. Thank you so much for giving us your time. Thank you