 Good morning everyone or good afternoon depending on where you are I would like to start by acknowledging the traditional owners of the land on which we meet today For me in Perth that is the Wajuk people of the Nungar nation And I'd like to pay my respects to their elders past present and future Thank you for joining us today This is the third in a series of webinars reprising presentations from the Australian e-research skilled workforce present summit that took place in Sydney in late July My name is Matias Livers. I'm from the ARDC and today I'll be joined by Chantal Hoibers and Christina Hall who will be presenting First up, I would like to introduce Chantal Hoibers who is the training and engagement manager at EcoEd and she will be taking us through the very successful EcoEd training program Over to you Chantal. Thank you very much Matias Awesome, thank you So my name is Chantal Hoibers. I'm based at Griffith University on the Gold Coast but EcoEd is a training program that was Funded and started by a whole bunch of organizations that work together To at which and engage with the community of eco scientists in Australia So this is really on behalf of those other organizations as well Let me see if this is working. Yeah, so I guess not just limited to the domain of eco science, but Just as a bit of an intro predicting changes in One sec predicting changes in environmental systems is really complex and can go from Small Micromes to like animals plants and whole ecosystems and to do this Accurately and properly we need a lot of data and this data more and more comes from a whole bunch of Different sources and and also is available in in lots of different formats. So it can be occurrence records of species traits Anything that you can measure on a species But also like remote sensing data camera trapping data acoustic recordings and so forth and Both in Australia as well as globally. We have a whole heap of platforms and portals that Aggregate this data and provide this for users to be used either in research or in education Some well-known ones in the biodiversity informatics Domain in Australia as the upwards of living Australia that hosts all the biodiversity that in Australia and turn Which collects standardized information about ecosystems? But there's there's a whole heap of others and the logos shown here on the right is just a collection of a small collection of those And once a user or researcher has Founded the data that they can use that they want to use this can then be used in a range of different tools to run the analytics that are necessary for to answer the question the research question that they have so In Australia we have a couple of virtual laboratories That's used this kind of data such as the biodiversity and climate change virtual app as well as the marine virtual lab but there's also other programs and As well as discipline agnostic tools such as our or Python Service that you can access in EcoCloud to analyze this data And what we've seen quite a bit is that a lot of these tools do provide some sort of user support or training for their users but this is often focused on which button to click to run a particular analysis or How do I? What do I do if something doesn't work or help? Why did my experiment fail there is I think a growing but still relatively limited amount of scientific support available to use these tools Kind of in a sensible way and while this kind of knowledge can be found in textbooks or publications I think it's a it will be a good Service to users of these tools to provide sufficient scientific support so that people can use the informatics infrastructures useful This is kind of Where eco at started and to give you a bit of history back in time. I'll start with the journey of ALA and BCC VL So the atmosphere of living Australia and the biodiversity climate change virtual lab started a series of workshops for training and user engagement But four years ago And what we did was we ran face-to-face workshops across the country and internationally They were free at the time It was mostly Kind of piggybacking on we're in a city. So why don't we stay an extra day and send out an invitation? to people in the in the domain and That got a lot of positive feedback And a lot of people really enjoyed that these workshops were not just learning about which button to click but a bit of the Scientific background behind what you can do in the tools For the BCC VL. We kind of had a bit of a look at what that meant for how our users engaged with the tool So one of the things that we noticed was obviously a Dramatic increase in the number of users that the virtual lab had So we started with our first workshops at the end of 2015 and then our first undergraduate course kind of in the beginning of 2016 and obviously if you run workshops, then it's it's Quite logic that you get an increase in number of people as well. So this graph wasn't really the most important for us It's actually this second graph when we started to look at how they actually Interact with the system. So this first bar is what people kind of did in the system before we started any workshop. So in the BCC VL, you can run experiments and Most of them are species distribution model experiments. And what we noted was that 75% of our users Found the BCC VL were able to log in but would never run an experiment, which is kind of Means that they don't really either know how to use it or don't come to it to use it And for us that kind of meant that we needed to guide them a bit better to how to use the tool and what it's useful for So about a year later, we have been running some workshops and started to do some undergraduate courses We saw quite a big decrease already in the number of people that Only ran zero experiments. So only logged in and never used it The orange bar that's one to two experiments is interesting But if you run one to two experiments in a workshop, that will always be a relatively high number I guess by now and this graph needs a bit of an update given that we're almost at the end of 2019 But we see more and more people who Actually return regularly to the VL and not just run, you know, a few experiments But actually come back almost every half year when they have a new research project or a new question that they'd like to Answer and they come back and run a multitude of experiments up to like a hundred experiments for some particular person so I think this graph shows that Training really helps with uptake and engagement with your users so this is where the idea for eco at kind of started and This program was put together the start by al a PCC VL and turn and some of the aims of the program were really to not just provide An ad hoc workshop for whoever wants to show up But really start to integrate this more and more in undergraduate courses because what we heard a lot from the academics attending our workshops was that These tools are very good to actually translate some of the scientific concepts to the students by giving them like a hands-on tool in which They could immediately apply the knowledge that they learn in a lecture in an actual tool that is used By researchers as well as by government practitioners in the real world so we really wanted to educate and upskill the next generation of of scientists and managers and Develop a network of of people so a lot of the academics that know these tools or use it for their own research Do provide a very good Network of of kind of our promoters and by having them giving them the the tools and the materials to To Deliver these kind of workshops in the undergraduate courses We would also increase the reach and the impact of the funding that we put towards developing these tools It's not just build it and they will come We I guess we really believe in in once you've built an infrastructure You need to engage and train your community to make sure that they can use it sensibly So he correct at the moment Has a couple of modules So what we've tried to do is put together Modules that around a particular topic within I guess the data life cycle and each module includes Or can include a lecture around a particular scientific topic and then has a practical Tutorial with a handout for students to actually run an exercise in a particular tool And then there's also a background information document for the teacher that really explains how you would set up a Class or a workshop if you want to run through What we've what we've kind of intended with that module So I guess to quickly touch upon each of the modules ARDC put together a 10 eco data things module that will build upon the 23 research that are things that they did previously we've picked out the 10 things that we thought were most important for Ecoscience and really made all the examples and the activities in the workshop relevant for eco science so that it can easily be introduced in a Introduction to ecology or conservation biology course Yet was of living Australia put together a module around the biodiversity data quality using their spatial portal to really filter through biodiversity data, which is often Collected over a range of years and might not every record might be relevant for the question that you're trying to address So using the spatial portal is a very good way to actually filter exactly what you need And make sure that the data is fit for the purpose of your research question turn put together a few R packages to easier access Some of the data that they have Within turn so there's a osplots R package and their module includes background information about this data and the whole R exercise to actually Access that data visualize it and and use it in some in some analytical kind of in an analysis to kind of start Exploring that data BCC VL has a module around species distribution models and how they might be impacted by climate change and then we also had the Australian Government Department for Agriculture Contacting us and saying we have this tool that is used a lot by decision makers. It's a multi-criteria decision analysis But this is a topic. That's not really taught yet in undergraduate courses and they do run workshops, but Often much more focused at the decision-maker level and not so much on the level of people that might Roll into those jobs after their education. So a best put together a whole module around multi-criteria decision analysis using the MCAS tool For that practical part of the of the module and and we have received a lot of positive feedback for that and And I guess there's one there in the left corner that was put together by Galaxy So crossing a little bit between domains between the bioscience and the eco science domain They really like to show that through a module that's focused on environmental metagenomics And that really shows that that this kind of approach goes across across domains So I guess what we've tried to do and we're still working on adding more and more modules We're currently working on some modules using eco clouds who doing more Analysis in arm as well as looking into other portals and tools within this domain That might be of interest. So we're really trying to tackle the whole scope of the data lifecycle from Understanding better how to manage data how data is collected and aggregated As well as focusing on tools that are developed for the analysis of of data As part of the eco a program we also started to Train what we call our eco at champions. So Instead of just having a handful of people that work for these tools going around the country and running these workshops We wanted to scale up this program and make sure that we could deliver training at a much higher like more at a higher levels and more people at the same time So we We kind of reached out to the people that attended our workshops and asked who was interested in becoming a champion and And kind of act as a as an advisor within an institution So these champions are mostly academics at a particular university in Australia And they can also give us rather than just delivering the training. They can also give us feedback About you know, how people interact with the system or what other features they would like to see So we so far have done two champions trainings with 14 different champions from 12 institutions and we kind of We supported them so we funded their travel and accommodation to attend Two or three day face-to-face training event and what we did amongst Organizations that provided a training deliver co-branded teaching materials So the champions would receive this training material and in the champions training each of the Representatives from each of the different organizations that put together the material would deliver this to them To really kind of explain to them how to re-deliver this in their own institutions and we also Provide them with kind of support after the training in case they still have questions or want to Personalize this a little bit more to or customize it to the course that they that they use the training in I guess some of the things Ending with a few of the challenges that we've come across and maybe the need for a program like eco-wets I presented our work to the Australian Council of Environmental Deans and directors last year and they actually noted that they reviewed the learning and teaching standards for this particular domain and none of it although In their skills section They do Mention applying tools There is no real mention in the entire document about skills with regards to data or digital tools or technology And they really saw this as a as a massive oversight and something that we should really think about Teaching our students That these tools exist and also how to access and use these tools and I guess without that we still do pretty fine because at the moment we have over 15 Universities across Australia and also some international universities that are Using these teaching materials. I was actually asked last month by a university in Peru if They were right with them translating all the materials to Spanish Which we could then also again Provide on the eco at website. So the outreach will be will be even quite substantial through that So I guess some of the challenges what we Try to address in these modules is a very wide range of topics that Include very disciplined specific topics ecological models and climate change projections might be quite Specific to the ecology fields, but at the same time we do address things like spatial data How do you work with? Biological and environmental data. How do you manage your data? I'll make it that map that data management plans So we kind of cover a lot of topics that address both discipline specific and discipline agnostic topics and at the same time we are Both Teaching people that have never heard about these concepts. I've never used any of these tools to people that are quite Expert at using that so some people are an expert in using our In their own studio on their computer, but have never used it through cloud compute or a very Skilled in using spatial data through either ArcGIS or QGIS, but have never used it in in the tool Like BCC BL. So so we're kind of covering Both the novice to expert as well as a different depth of topics Where we would like to go is to really focus with eco ed on the more disciplined specific topics That's what we already do But work more and more together like what we did with AIDC and the ten equaled other things to Generate some materials that are based on discipline agnostic topics, but then kind of tailor that for Maybe the more domain-specific Topic of for more with more domain-specific examples So really thinking about Talking more to the discipline agnostic Organizations like the carpentries and and other organizations that provide this kind of training intersect There's a lot of training on Jupiter notebooks, which we have an eagle cloud So how can we really work better together and not keep reinventing the wheel on some of these things? I guess just to end with what we've seen in developing a program like this some of the challenges that we've had is Besides the coordination that we would like to increase with the other providers Funding is always a bit of a question mark. Do we fund this as part of platforms, which would Really make sense because she can't develop a platform without providing support for it at the same time The it might be a program on its own We would like to make our materials more fair so have almost standardized metadata around What's this module about and what could you use it for? Rather than just having ad hoc files Having the more online rather than in downloadable files would be also very good. How do we measure impact? That was a question that I got asked by one of the collaborating organizations they need to report on how often is it used and Even though I have quite a bit of contact with the academics that are using our materials I also do know that there might be universities using it without us even knowing and how can we provide more recognition for people that have either Participated in a particular workshop or in the champions training So that maybe they can use this as part of their as part of their degree So these are things that we would like to work with other training Initiatives in Australia on and something that is kind of on our agenda to look at for the next Next year's I guess So yeah, that was kind of what I wanted to share about our program and happy to I don't know if we take questions now or at the end But happy to discuss if you're if you're interested in either using the material or becoming a partner organization Thanks Thank you very much for that Chantel. We do not have any questions for you at this time Chantel So we might move on to Christina So Christina Hall is the well as it says on the title screen their training and communication manager at Australian bio commons Take it away Christina Thanks very much So today I'd like to introduce to you a scalable model for delivering disperse bioinformatics training that we've been working with Then we call it hybrid training So within five years we estimate there'll be more than 30,000 Australian researchers across agricultural environmental and health sciences that will either be bioinformaticians themselves There will be researchers who use a lot of bioinformatics driven techniques or They'll be researchers who are wet lab focus, but will rely on online resources to interpret their research They'll increasingly be interacting with both local and global resources They'll have diverse data needs and they will certainly bring a variety of skills And I'm going to place this training technique that we've developed within this context of responding to those needs So The embal Australia bioinformatics resource was a distributed research infrastructure network providing bioinformatics support to life science Researchers throughout Australia and it was set up as a collaboration with embal ebi to maximize Australia's bioinformatics capability It was hosted at Melbourne bioinformatics through a funding agreement between the University of Melbourne and Bioplatforms Australia now one of the successes of the embal a br was that there was a group of 13 nodes around Australia Who came together to participate in? share the training activities At the conclusion of embal a br this year We're continuing to work with that great group of institutions and researchers as a vehicle for the continuation of a national training program Within another bioplatforms Australia funded initiative, and that's the Australian bioinformatics commons So the Australian Biocommons project is asking the big questions around What infrastructure and activity is needed to support Australian biologists to do world-class science and? In terms of biocommons training We've really hit the ground running by leveraging what was built as part of the embal a br and I'll describe that training methodology That we've refined over a couple of years now So we There was a range of activities Things like providing a central point to find out about bioinformatics training And we also had a webinar series in collaboration with the ARDC But what I'm going to talk about is our live hands-on training workshops that took place Both last year and this year So the hybrid training method combines the advantages of webinars with the advantages of in-person group training So we needed this method to efficiently share training resources across our network It was actually inspired originally by a failed roadshow that we'd organized for a fantastic trainer from the US to come to Australia and Unfortunately, she applied for the wrong visa to travel here and we found out a little bit too late to do anything about it So to salvage some training opportunities for our nodes we cobbled together the beginnings of our hybrid training method So when I talk about that what I'm meaning is that we have a lead trainer that delivers hands-on workshops via video conferencing and At the other ends we have participants gathering in training rooms that are always supported by facilitators locally So what they do together is then work through Tested content that's been specifically created for that forum and with Pre-prepared data and tools and compute to support the activities So far we've worked across a few various different platforms. We're experimenting quite a lot still at the moment We've had a lot of people five different trainers work with us to develop new materials We've had a whole raft of volunteer facilitators and they've represented lots of venues around Australia I've got a list here of Institutes and organizations who have put their hand up to participate in Sometimes all of our training activities Other times just topics of particular interest so the hybrid training has three roles within it the Lead trainer is the person who's responsible for the content creation. So we approach experts in their field With a topic that they would like to develop up some new training in once We work with them to develop training that will fit the hybrid methodology and we run through and test that content with them We also can help them to ensure that the compute and the data and the analysis platform will work on the day for their proposed activities Now these events always rely on local facilitators. They are in-room helpers We make sure that they're all adequately trained they spend time with the lead trainer ahead of the public event and Sometimes they actually assist the lead trainer in developing the content They're also our person who deals with logistics at their various venues. So they do room bookings. They do local Advertising and they're responsible for the success on the day. They welcome people to the room They make sure people are keeping up. They encourage them to interact via the zoom chat window and Also a discussion board, which I'll talk about later and they set up the live feeds. We have into their rooms now the coordination is a Role for the Australian bio commons We make sure that all the planning ahead of time and the resourcing is adequate for the day the event to be a success We reach out to new facilitators and we make sure they're trained and confident in taking part on the day We also assist with advertising materials. We advertise nationally We set up and take the registrations and communicate with participants ahead of time making sure everything's a hit on the day and after the event We undertake the evaluation surveys and report back to each of the venues What happened and how it was received at their venue? so This is what the events actually look like it's a mix of talking and providing time for Participants to actually do things themselves on their own laptops as they'll have to be able to do when they leave the workshop So we stagger each workshop with catch-up points And we also monitor each of the rooms to make sure that everyone's on board and everyone's keeping up And if they're not we actually pause and wait for everyone to continue on together So the lead trainer Here we have a lead trainer from last year and a sign she's in a room by herself The lead trainer is never in front of a live audience But that person is concentrating on delivering the best they can for everyone watching without any distraction our last two events have had over 150 registrants Logging on at the same time So it's important that the lead trainer has every one of those people's needs in mind rather than just the immediate needs of someone in front of them Having said that there is one person in the room with our lead trainer We ensure they have a buddy that sits with them to alert them to any problems that are going on at the various venues So there might be a change of pace required or a question that comes through that means that requires immediate attention So there's a person in the room who can give them a little tap on the shoulder and let them know what's happening if need be Now ideally that person is also an expert in the field of the training That's being undertaken and they can get on and answer questions immediately without interrupting the trainer's presentation And so on the right side of this slide you can see The view that the each of the rooms get there's one big screen in each room They see the presentation that the trainers beaming out At the top of the screen here you can see Anna's speaking head So they can always see the speaker delivering the training and Then there's various other rooms. They can see each other really engenders a sense of community They can see other venues all around Australia taking part in the same training activities So we encourage constant discussion by a discussion board That's actually just a Google doc that all participants can interact with they can interact with each other at other venues with the facilitators and with the lead trainer at times and Domain experts so we have usually a bit over 90 Usually about 90 simultaneous users of the discussion board and that really provides a great opportunity for participants to ask questions that are specific to their own research or to You know ask extensions on what's being presented in the training on the day Here's just a snapshot of a couple of venues From a training activity on the left here. We have a small group gathering in Melbourne bioinformatics and On the right is a larger group. This is actually Monash Malaysia campus Now when the request came from Monash Malaysia to take part in some of our training activities We weren't sure that they were really within our target audience But the beauty of this method is it's really low cost to bring anyone on board. So we said why not? And that goes that that sort of mentality goes The same for if an isolated group in a rural university, they might have two people sitting in a room It's really easy just to bring them on board and have them participate so The things that we really love about the hybrid method is the discussion board We think that's a real success and we can get some really fantastic Discussions going there and that continues on after the workshop itself is finished and It lives on forever so if people want to consult the discussion board again, they can go back and see the answers that they got forevermore Initially we didn't have specifically people Sitting watching the discussion board ready to answer questions, but over time we realized it's such a great resource for people to have access to People with a lot of experience that we always make sure that there's people who can answer the hard questions watching the discussion board ready to go We use Eventbrite for Managing all of our registrations. It works really well Some of the facilitators want to know all the details about who registering they want constant updates I can share those the permissions for their particular event and they can keep an eye on the questions the answers to the Registration questions that are coming in or tap on their colleagues on the on the shoulder If they think they should be attending and haven't registered yet other facilitators don't want to know anything about the registration So I can just provide them with the reports ready to go before the event starts Eventbrite is also really nice at managing the wait list a lot of the times our venues have significant wait lists But we always have people who drop out in the week in lead-up and sometimes in the day before the event An eventbrite allows us to quickly offer those places To the next people in line and to maximize attendance As I said, it's really easy once the event is set up and ready to go It's really easy to offer it to further venues to bring new people on board as long as they have a Facilitator who's available locally And we really feel like the administrative burden is born by the organiser that by a commons in this case Whereas we can make it easy for people to bring training into their institution that wouldn't have otherwise happened While we do all of the the boring side of organizing it for them So There are some limitations of the hybrid method at the moment in Australia. We're working across four time zones and That limits the amount the length of time that a workshop can go for so it's usually three to four hours And that short format will by necessity limit what we can hope to achieve in that time We also have Patchy uptake we can only reach into venues where we can identify a local facilitator and Sometimes we'll have a facilitator trained up for one topic and the next time there won't be a taker there at the same venue So we'll have to train New facilitators and that new sourcing of facilitators They're training and the loss of knowledge how the events have run in the past and the expectations we can have of each other It can be very time-consuming We also know that We struggle with volunteer fatigue like everybody people are very busy in their normal day jobs and Sometimes we can't rely on the same people to put their hand up every time So the Biocommons training goals is to foster a collaborative community of highly engaged bioinformatics training specialists who are keen to participate in future national training initiatives So we know for that to happen in a sustainable way that we need to be able to identify The right people and we need to reward and recognize their contribution to make that as a sustainable endeavor So what's happening now? At this point we have a really well documented standard operating procedure. We have our processes Nicely laid out. We share those with lots of people who ask about how we do business We've got templates that we can share with people and we're going to wrap all of those into a Paper that's in preparation at the moment. We're also working on new workshops this year We've just recently run the first half of a new phylogenetics trees workshop before that We were working on another two-part workshop on bioinformatics workflows and We're having further conversations with what's in store for next year. So the University of Tasmania University of Adelaide CSIRO who have been partners who have developed content with us this year And we're really looking for new partners who have something that they'd like to share for next year so 2020 sees a very ambitious plan for us for national training events and we're interested really in partnering at all levels so where there's an opportunity to develop good materials and an opportunity to deliver it to where it's needed and That's where we want to be. So please contact us if you have some good ideas to share about bioinformatics training. Thanks Thank you very much for that Christina So I think Chantel if you'd like to turn your video on your microphone on we can move into Question time Okay, so we have One question already for you Christina Daria Vinicina from the Sydney informatics hub Just wanted to confirm what you use as your discussion board platform. I believe you said you use a Google Doc for that Yes, that's right. We're currently using Google Docs, but open to suggestions if People have used other things. I know some some people use ETH pads We find it works. Okay, we've we've not had any issues with it so far I'd honestly like to Ask you Chantel. What is it that you use to facilitate the communication between your champions? That's a good question and we started with something that's called base camp and That was a few years ago and I'm I kind of felt that was just a new thing for people to add to their long list so I'm not sure if we we haven't really continued to use that and At the moment because in the last year we haven't really had Funding to run Ego ed. It was kind of done a little bit as part of Other programs. We haven't really looked into a new good solution for that yet Probably slack would be an option. I think slack These days is is a good way of communicating with groups of people and and yeah And we don't have an Ego ed slack channel yet, but I can foresee that that is probably the way to go Okay, thank you Chantel Christina, Susanna Bacon from the ARDC asks or says that Some of your methodology sounds like it's inspired or sorry sounds like it's similar to the carpentries Did you take any inspiration from the carpentries methodology? I Would like to think so so we've a Lot of our trainers Trainers who have done carpentries training themselves and Obviously, there's a lot of advantages there in terms of face-to-face training So I would say yes, there are very much factors that are inspired by carpentries style training Especially given that most people who are interested in bioinformatics training have exposure to the carpentries because It's a it's a great method in itself Great, thanks Now I did I personally have a question for you Christina so you You know one of the key components of the hybrid training are these local facilitators that you identify and train up But you mentioned that these facilitators are already domain experts or Know about what is going to be trained in Is there any room for because I'm looking at their 10-day list we have a few librarians in the list And I was wondering if there is any scope or room for non-domain experts to help facilitate Hybrid training for the institution. I Have also been wondering myself Exactly that question after attending a research recently I had some wonderful conversations with Library staff who had been engaged in Training activities. I'm thinking now about the Tinker project And it really did open my eyes to the scope of perhaps broadening out the role of facilitator to people who are already skilled in engaging with broad audiences To train them up in particular skills, but that those people might be outside of the bioinformatics community So I think there's actually really great potential for that as a path a different path of engagement Because I I do believe a lot of the materials really lend themselves Don't require a domain expert to be standing in the room when you have a lead trainer who is an absolute expert and In a forum where interaction with that person is possible Each of those local facilitators might bring different skills other than Expertise in the in the subject matter that's being taught. So yes, that is something I would like to investigate more Okay, great that sounds good Now we have a couple of comments from Daria Vinichkina. So one is going back to how Trainers or champions can stay in touch with each other Daria mentions that there is already a slack that is shared between Research trainers in Australia So she suggests Chantal you might like to just hijack that for your own purpose Invite people to join the Enriched one. Yeah, we could have a channel on that for example and Sorry Chantal go on I said that must she must be pointed to the Enriched one Yes, that that's my assumption as well and for anybody who's tuned into this webinar I can share the link for that community of practice when I send out the recording probably next week I guess Daria confirms it's the Enriched one another comment from Daria So she shares that They've had non bioinformaticians help out with a snake make and some of the workflow tools at Sydney Informatics Hub Although apparently this was accidentally and not by design Yeah, I think specifically they were HBC staff involve In that one. I think that's what we're talking Yes, that's correct Daria confirmed that Now I had another question wait, yes, I remember now now Christina and this goes for you as well Chantal So but Christina you especially mentioned that you already have Procedures and templates and workflows in place that you are happily sharing with others But I was wondering if you'd be interested in making those things a bit more fair and making them entirely public so that other people can Possibly contribute or reuse them without necessarily having to get in touch with you and Chantal the same goes for you You've got your champion program and I'm sure others would be very interested in Your processes and workflows in how you manage that Any responses to that question Yeah, so for eco and all the materials that we share with the champions are openly available. So so any Any person who would want to use eco at materials can download that from the eco at website at the moment That's a Google Drive folder and I am in the process of putting that into a github pages so that Students especially academics who use this in an undergraduate course that they run every year I would rather have them go to a github pages That's up to date with the tools rather than using the same PDF file from last year that might have some changes in it So that material is openly available how we Run the champions training itself as in the trainer the trainer component Yeah, that's a good question. I'm always up. I have shared, you know, our kind of Learnings and challenges with the has community who did a similar champions approach Now wonder if I wrote that up somewhere they Plenty of people have said it will be great if you can just write it up and have it somewhere available We haven't really gotten there yet, but Yeah That's where we're at as well. It will be written into a paper and and Posited somewhere that everyone can share it widely, but that we're still in that process of writing up Yeah, well, I'm sure that you both have ample free time to be able to do things like this All right now We have no more questions left all the Christina and Chantala. I wonder if you have any questions for each other Sorry for putting you on the spot I didn't have a question. I don't know if it's personal, but I noticed the That there was a point on your presentation Chantale that was about fully funded Champions training now I know that our training when you're flying people in from all over Australia can be very expensive Just fully funded mean you paid those people for their time because I know you also had quite Senior people in that room as well. Did you if you had them for two days? Were you paying their time or just say travel expenses? Just travel accommodation and food. Yeah So they they give us their time So far the feedback has been that they think that's very valuable. Yeah, but even so even Even just providing travel accommodation and food can be quite expensive. So when I presented to the Australian What is it council for environmental deans and directors? That was that's 25 representatives from 25 different Unis And they actually said that, you know, the universities that don't have a champion yet They were like, oh, why are we not on the list and we'd be happy to try to find resources to Send the champion, you know, if that will be the limitation for us If we say we only have money to do eight or ten champions They were like, well, if I pay for my own champion to get there and have accommodation You know, would you be able to feed them? So eventually I would want to through through that kind of council reach out to all the universities and actually say look We're having a champions training, but we can't really provide accommodation and travel But if you want your university to have a champion send them here I actually do think a lot of the universities wanted to be part of the program. So, yes It's kind of, you know, trying to find the way and and also even the facilitators So our time was kind of funded by our own organizations. So, you know, we just get and rock up It's for some people. It's part of their job. But for a lot of others, it's also Kind of, you know, just giving their time. So, yeah It's an in-kind contribution to supporting the program and they feel that the contributions worth the exchange is Valuable enough to make that contribution. Yeah. Yeah Thanks Okay, now We would love to be a hybrid model for eco-eds. So, yeah, that's something we would definitely be Especially now we have champions at 12 different institutions. We can actually run A hybrid training where, you know, if I would be the trainer, I could be online and we could still have those Those rooms set up across the country. So, yeah Yeah, yes, once you have a stable community of trainers, they're ready to go with the training. That's a big step forward Yeah, talk to me anytime you like Yeah Uh, also been dabbling in hybrid training myself, although admittedly it was to one remote site So I was in Perth and the room in Adelaide had a local facilitator Um, but that went that was extremely successful. I was really happy with how that turned out And I think this hybrid training model is something that any Training organization or trainer should strongly consider To help scale up their activities Uh, now we do not have any more questions. Um, so uh, Shantala and Christina I'd like to thank you both very much for your time. Uh, it was a fantastic session today So, uh, this now was the last in the series of webinars following the australian e-research school workforce summit So, uh, please keep an eye on the ARDC events calendar for future webinars We are getting into the tail end of the year. So things might start tapering off a little bit, but we'll certainly be back Strongly in the new year. So thank you very much for attending. Goodbye. Thanks so much Thank you. Bye. Bye