 So please give a warm welcome for Jeff Scott welcome Jeff And just so you know I play bass guitar in a band so maybe we can get going here in Austin Make a few dollars on the street where we're going So good morning everyone. I know I've already run into a bunch of people I know it's always fun to come to conferences and kind of get get back In touch with people that you haven't seen in a long time or heard from a long time So and for those of you I haven't met. I hope to Meet you later today I'm gonna start with why I'm here Because I'm not going to talk about models and I'm not going to talk about standards At least only tangentially I have been in the architecture space for over 20 years I spent the first 10 years in what you would think of as traditional enterprise architecture doing technology things and helping architecture teams start up and all those kind of things and I've spent the last 10 years in business architecture and There I Honestly don't do much architecture, which is maybe a bad thing. I don't know what I do is I help organizations design implement Manage grow business architecture practices. That's fundamentally what I do and Every year I speak to hundreds of business architects in one way or another And when I was an analyst at Forester, I went to Forester in 1997 2007 excuse me to build their business architecture practice and ran that for four years there I talked to thousands of people there were either business architects or wanted to be business architects So the point to all that is is I may have some radical ideas here But they're well-founded because they're rooted in a in a perspective that's driven by the marketplace And what's going on out there? So while you may not resonate with some of this I think it's good to hear and I and I hope you get something out of it. I Totally avoid talking about what business architecture is because we're all going to argue about it if we do that I But I would want to say just to kind of level set you here is this I Think there are a lot of definitions out there. I don't know what your definition is I think there are a lot of definitions out there that kind of talk about business architecture as a blueprint as a model of the Organization and I think I'll just be very clear. I think this is exactly the wrong way to think about it Because when we do that we narrow what business architecture is and we certainly narrow Who we are as business architects? So for me, it's a practice. It's a way to do things. It's an approach It's a craft whatever however you want to scale that but our but the idea to me behind business architecture is How do we get the ideas the goals the strategies the changes we want to make in our company? How do we get those done? Efficiently and effectively and how can we help the organization do that so just kind of a little level set and What I want to do is talk about start with the reality today, and I'll warn you It isn't pretty But before I go there Me crackling there, okay First is let's make sure I'm all tight here, and I think I am Architects are some of our best and brightest folks We do not take the guys that can't cut it as a business analyst or a project manager Say, okay, let's put them in let's put them in architecture. Get them out of the way so they can't do much harm Yeah, okay, and now we're really gonna have a problem because I'm not ambidextrous enough to hold a mic So the point is we're a bunch of smart people We also have the latitude to build business architecture in the image we want Unlike other organizations when you go to work for somebody The chances are really high They know how to do your job better than you do because they were doing it for years and years and years They got promoted to be manager you come in they know how to do what you're doing Business architecture not a chance your CIO For most of you clueless your business guys clueless Whoever's running business architecture programs at almost any company is working for somebody that does not know anything about business architecture They do not know how to do it. They haven't done it for 10 years. There's almost nobody that's done it for 10 years, by the way So we've got a lot of latitude a green field to make it like we want to make it in addition to that We've got plenty of time now. We don't have forever But we do have a lot of time because it's not a project people are saying we know you don't know what it is Go start it up. Go figure it out. We have some time Yes, we probably can't take years and years, but we certainly have plenty of time to put this together And in addition to that our companies need us they need business architecture desperately over half the world CIOs Believe their business model their fundamental business model will not sustain them for five years Think about the level of change. We're talking about here that our business Executives understand so we have all these things going for us all these things and yet Business architecture teams are struggling for success So when I looked at this set of facts and I started thinking about okay, why is this? It led me to some pretty sobering things But first let's look at what the what where we really are 60% of architecture programs fail. That's not my opinion. That's Forrester research Couple years old maybe a little bit better than that But two years ago it was 64% failure rate is what they're saying and when I was at Forrester And we were looking at failure rates of architecture teams It was always in the 40 to 60 percent range when we saw that so that to me feels about right So 60% failing that means they are going away. They're not just sitting there working 20 percent are struggling for success They're working hard. They're trying to get there Typically organizations in their first year or two or or in fact you might call it year zero while they're trying to even get started or struggling and Then you've got about 15% that I think are good journeyman architects. They're creating models are adding values Somebody's recognizing that value. They are making some difference in their company. They have a possible future and then five percent or Filling what I think of is the architecture promise what we all think that this should provide for our companies Now the five percent is actually being very gracious I put that as five because my peers just beat the hell out of me when I kept saying one It's probably closer to one or two percent that are really out there doing that so Look at that data and Tell me if that doesn't scare you Because they should because you know you can be sitting there saying well, I'm smart enough that you know, it's not gonna be me Well It's very likely going to be you if you if you do this because there's a lot of stuff stacked up So the question is what's going on here? How many of you recognize that figure? Boy, okay a bunch of young guys. That's what I like That is a figure from late 60s 70s comic book comic strip character and His name is Pogo He is a possum From the okie finokie swamps, and he's a philosopher. I know it sounds strange, but it's true and Out of his years in the comic strips, he had one indelible quote which is we have met the enemy and He is us and I think that quote fits for the business architecture profession today So what's going on one is What I look out there and talk to business architects particularly those guys who are struggling now I have a group of people I work with that are very successful, and we're gonna talk about how they're different But when I look at the masses of business architects out there today What I see are these kind of things first is we want it to happen our way We've got models in those models. They're correct by the way. They are factual. They are truth They are it this is the way to do it and if you want to change that model one one out it you're wrong We want it to happen our way We ignore culture and context Do you know what the number one challenge for business architecture success is? But defined by first research I mean what the number one challenge is culture and yet We don't pay any attention to that Even though we have crossed the Rubicon half of business architects now report outside of IT They are now reporting to business units strategy units operational units planning groups all kinds of stuff But they're reporting in fact a number of them are starting to report to this to this CFO Which I find fascinating because that's the guy that controls all the money But they're still overly technology centric We're still looking at the world largely through technology and that's because most of us came from technology We look at efficiency over effectiveness same same reason if you've been an IT all your life All you've heard from those business jerks across the hall there is quit spending so much money be cheaper be faster Be more efficient And so we think they really care about efficiency and they don't They want that money for themselves so they can squander it away Trying to be effective to make their strategies happen. So efficiency is not what drives them We won't control over what's going on instead of collaboration The way we're gonna succeed here is collaborate what most people want to do is control I want the CEO to tell these guys they've got to follow my model. They've got to they've got to do it my way And or I want to put in a governance mechanism to make this work. That's not gonna cut it focus on models rather than results Tons and tons of modeling going on here. You guys do a lot of modeling. We need good models. We need good standards But as architects, we've got to focus on results first models second And I think the bottom line is we'd rather be right than successful We know how it should be done if those business guys over there don't understand it shame on them Because we're right So I think this is the kind of stuff that I'm Seeing all the time here So I'm giving note to the guys in the back I'm not seeing the timer up here, which would be helpful because I didn't look at my watch And I'm gonna run over Here's where we are on the global landscape if you can if you can read this and I was talking to Lynn last night I always have these fact we talked for what three hours in the bar last night two drinks and Lynn and I man You just don't know what's gonna happen Here's what I see out there when I work with architects at the left-hand side of the curve What I see is a whole bunch of guys struggling and largely they're focused on it ish kinds of issues That's not a bad thing. That's just where most of us start But but that's where they are in the middle of the pack is where I see those journeymen architects that I talked about that are delivering value and They look different this is not a maturity curve here these are just attributes of different groups of people and how they look at the world and When you look at the guys over on the far right-hand side those very very few guys that are really really excellent at doing this They're even more different. And so what you see here are things like Over on the left. I talked about culture. We ignore a culture in the beginning Just not my problem not gonna go there by the time these guys have been successful What you find is they've figured out we have to align to the culture We can't fight it. We've got to figure out how to align with it And then when you look at the really successful guys, they're challenging the culture They're saying the culture is holding us back from doing what we need to do We're gonna challenge that and we're gonna help the organization change the culture or mitigate it get around it Or do something Same way about credibility when we start off. We have very little credibility As technology guys we have huge credibility with other technology guys But when we start looking at the business, we don't have much credibility because we haven't worked with them By the time I look at the guys in the middle who are being pretty successful. They've established individual credibility They don't know much about business architecture, but they know Susie really knows what she's doing get her over here to help us And then when you look over at the right, what's happened is they've transferred that credibility into the practice So it's now people are saying I need a business architect Here's an interesting thing Because we look at this curve when we say wow it must be really hard at the beginning because all these guys struggle 60% fail all that No, that's the easy part What happens is it gets harder and harder as we go And so that's why when you look back here at this curve What you see is this pool of people in the middle that are doing really good But they have an enormous challenge in front of them And most of the difference there is that What got you here Won't get you there Doing some good efficiency work will get you started, but you can't hang on to that very long Being really good at modeling and describing is really good stuff and you can get started that way But it's not going to take you to the end It's a very different set of skills. It's a very different set of activities that move us into that excellence view And by and large it has little to do with what architects think about today We'll talk about that A lot of it is overcoming politics and culture and the organizational context stuff And what I hear a lot is well, that's not my job My job is to lay out the models and to describe how the organization works and do all that those Those executive guys need to fix the culture Well True you probably cannot change the culture, but you better figure out how to succeed in it Because you can do that And that's a pretty big challenge raising executive collaboration I I don't do a ton of work, but I do a moderate amount of work with executives It's always amazing to me how they all get in a room and they all smile and nod and they're all Friendly and they walk out the door and they go do whatever in the hell they want to do And so part of what we've got to do is bring that group together And I think we have the tools and the techniques to do that by showing them How we can work together to succeed better, but that's that's a big challenge to get over there to the right Implementing top-down strategy execution. I'm going to talk about that much more in a minute because that is the key I think for our business architecture success broad senior level advocacy I talked to so many guys that are like, yeah, yeah, we're trying to get the ceo support trying to get the ceo support I'm telling you right now. You don't even want the ceo support It's almost A death nail for you to get that because he or she is not going to be around as long as you are And what happens to the guys who do get the senior level support like that is they get lazy They depend on them to push What you need is a broad level of support across a wide group of senior managers. That's how you exist for a long time I mentioned before shift this individual credibility to Or to a practice credibility So that what happens is the organization is now seen as essential to the company And it's not just a bunch of smart guys and that's a big challenge By the way, that's one of the biggest challenges. I see in business architecture groups because here's what happens Think about this. You guys all know this. You're all there I have a ton of personal credibility because I go and I work with you I solve your problems. You love what I do. It's all great. And when you have a problem, you say call Jeff But if I want business architecture as a practice as a profession to succeed I've got to give that up personally give that up and say No, no, I'm a business architect. You don't necessarily need me. You need one of us And that is a very very hard thing to do which incidentally fuels part of the problem out there Which is why business architects don't move around much a huge issue trying to hire experienced business architects and part of the reason is a you don't have anything to offer them There's not a big enough hierarchy here that I can go from. Oh this level to that level by changing jobs But the second thing is the successful guys know they're successful because they have business Relationships and if they go to a new company, they give it up They don't want to do that. So you have a very hard time sucking successful business architects out of companies because of that We need a very strong consulting engagement approach At the end of the day when you look at those guys on the right their consultants They happen to do business use business architecture as their major tool, but their consultants They quit they may call themselves business architects and they may not They're largely using architectural techniques methods tools models standards all that good stuff But they're consulting Uh competition another big challenge for business architects, particularly as they become more and more successful There are other organizations in the company that jump up and say whoa. Wait a minute. You're doing my job Project office strategy customer experience all these guys that we collaborate with or should collaborate with All of a sudden they pop up and say wait a minute. You're kind of challenging my role here And when I talk to people about stakeholder analysis and stuff, I try to get them to understand Yes, we have customers as business architects We have investors as business architects and we have competitors and we better figure out how to deal with those guys Hiring and developing the right staff. That's uh again very difficult to do But I think the bigger thing here is we have to think bigger We have to see our role beyond Good modeling good description good recommendation We've got to see ourselves as big change agents in the world And when I talk to one of the one of the biggest things that differentiates those struggling guys from the successful guys Is they have a leader who is thinking bigger about what business architecture can be And you might look at it and say holy crap that guy's out of his mind. He'll never do that. That's okay. He might or might not But at least he has a vision That this thing can be bigger than what it is today And I think if I had to Give one piece of advice to Business architects, it would be think bigger about who you can be because you can be a lot bigger than you think So What opportunities do we have and I think we have enormous opportunities? So I'm only going to talk about a couple here, but I think they're big ones Kind of back to the definition Well, there's a lot of words here. I'm sure you guys will get these slides so you can read this Because again my my definition of business architecture changes Oh, I don't know Not monthly but twice a year because I learned something. I mean that that's again I'm talking to all these different architects and I hear what they're saying I hear what they're doing. I'm like, oh wow. I never thought about business architecture in that light We were this But I think the bottom here is the important part Our ultimate goal Is not to model the organization our ultimate goal is not to make it efficient and effective though that helps all those things help What we need to do is unlock The organization's capacity To do more not more work more change How do we unlock the capacity in the company so that it can move forward And be successful And if we can do that We have done something nobody else can do one of the other things I tell business architects is this Efficiency work is good work. Don't get me wrong operational improvement is good work. God bless you. If that's what you want to do We need it Good stuff There's a lot of people in your organization that can do that work You have to be relatively smart. You have to be pretty analytical You have to be very methodical you you can get there and do that work There are not many people in your organization that can drive change. There are not many people in your organization That can enable strategy. So the big opportunity Is trying to figure out how we unlock organizational capacity Let these other guys worry about how to be operationally efficient. You can do more I do think strategy execution is the big opportunity for business architects There's a bunch, but I think this is the biggest one And this is why So an hbr study a few years ago 37% of executives said they are really good at strategy execution. So for those of you who haven't had your second cup of coffee yet 63% Think they're mediocre or worse Okay, now these are the guys who are in charge of strategy execution And they think they're companies or mediocre or worse um Robert Kaplan from the balance scorecard book Says 95% of employees in most organizations do not understand the organization strategy The survey from hbr said 53% Pick whatever number you want it ain't good People do not know what's going on and more card 70% of organizations don't link their strategic priorities with their budgets now Let me see here. How does that work? If I'm not spending money where it matters. How am I going to get there? And I think so when you look at this picture There is a huge opportunity So again when I look at those 15% or so of business architects who are succeeding 95% of them are working on that problem They may or may not have it solved most of them don't have it completely solved Every one of them is trying to fix this problem because they have figured out That's where the money is that's where success is Here's why and this is kind of my rendition of why we have that problem and most of us do An executive has a bright idea and if you haven't figured it out all executive ideas are bright ideas And what he does is he calls his staff around or his planning group or whoever he works with And they discuss this idea for a day or two or however How long they discuss it and they kind of walk out of the room with yeah, let's go So if there are five and i'm just making this up to have a nice little modeling example If there are five people around the table, here's what happens Every one of them interprets the conversation slightly differently Let's just say 5% And originally when I made this model I thought no 5% maybe that's too much Maybe it's two then I started talking to people they're like no man. It's more like 10 Or 20 The problem is it's not the same 5% It's not like somebody coughed in the room and we missed some important statement that the CEO made It's that well, I interpreted a little different you interpret a little different You interpret a little different And so we all walk out of there with a slightly different view which means We're about 75 coherent on what the goal is that's on day one And it only goes downhill from there guys because what happens is every one of those managers goes to their staff They translate what they heard their staff Reinterpits has the same problem Goes down Translates it to their staff. They reinterpret have the same problem and this continues on you all have experienced this Or most of you have in grammar school you played a game called whispers or telephone Where I whisper in his ear some statement It passes around the room and it comes that way over here and it's totally garbled and it's hilarious Except it's not funny when it's your corporate strategy and that's exactly the way it works. So What we don't have is a structured way to get from strategic intent to strategic execution When we look at the processes in our company like order to cash concept the product all that stuff We have very very well-defined articulated executed processes I guarantee you all of you guys got this stuff written down somewhere And in fact when we look at what I think of is kind of support processes like order office supplies Reviews those kind of things you still have pretty well defined processes strategy execution I'm willing to bet not 10% of you have anything written down When I talk to executives, here's what I show them Here's how you order post-it notes in your company And it kind of goes through you got to check the warehouse to say do we have post-it notes? Because maybe we don't we got to go buy some Oh, and oh by the way, you might be trying to buy a million dollars worth of post-it notes So we got to check and make sure your bud your budget's got enough money to pay for these post-it notes We got to debit your budget blah blah blah. We got to get this into the system So it gets delivered to you and you get a post-it note And I guarantee you most of you have something at that level of detail or more about ordering office supplies And here's how your strategy execution works the executive management say go there And everybody gets together and meets about it talks about it argues about it tries to come up with strategies about it And they all come up with ideas and they go like this That's how it gets done Your executives are frustrated as hell about this They're causing them. They're still frustrated. It doesn't matter So what happens here is all these guys go away and they come up with ideas and they bubble back up through the organization and then as one Leader of the strategic planning function for a fortune 100 company says the food fight ensues Because now all these projects are coming up. They're all fighting for money Nobody at the top really has any good perspective about which of these are the best projects to run And it's pretty much chaos until they kind of settle on something and even then they don't know where they got the right things So that's that's reality. So all we need is a more structured way to do this Uh, this is kind of my way of doing this That is you can think of this as a mainstream We clarify this is what business architects can do put a process in place to clarify strategy We don't create strategy very rarely do you see business architects do that but we certainly can clarify it illuminate it Document it communicate it identify the capabilities that we have Identify the gaps in those capabilities to execute those strategies again. I don't care whether we're operating efficiently somewhere else I want to know do we have what we need To build these strategies and make them successful Choose the investments based on that and if you follow this kind of model what you get is an investment portfolio that is tightly Aligned with your strategic Goals you don't get all the projects you need And a lot of business architects want to make sure we got every project done. I don't care The the value is the value is separating the noise from the signal and saying these are the projects we need to be doing If that's the goal Again all these guys that I think are being successful are working on this model. In fact, I went through a dozen of the of of uh Fortune 500 business architecture teams and I said how do you do this and they all said well, we do this this this this Their models didn't look exactly like that But i'm telling you you could align those models up In their 90 percent the same around this kind of thing and that's what they're all trying to do The other part of this is a little different and this is a very different message for you But it's about unlocking Employee capital here What I see when I go into companies is I see senior executives who are frustrated because they have great ideas Remember all their ideas are great. They have great ideas and they just can't make them happen They got too much resistance too much Stuff going on in their organization I see the people in the middle organization and that is where I work the most I know by the way I think middle managers are the people that make stuff happen Executives talk a lot middle managers make it happen And they're frustrated because they don't understand what they need to do So because I don't understand what I need to do I just keep getting better and better and better what I do I don't know what that matters I'm just getting better at it because that's the only thing I know to do and say a whole bunch of guys They just say Tell me what to do. I don't care and in fact Gallup who does all the a lot of political polling and all kinds of polling has developed this tool to look at Employee engagement and what they say Not me what they say is 20 percent of your employees are engaged That means they really care about your success. They're working towards your success. They're highly motivated They make things happen 50 percent of your employees are disengaged They just do what you tell them and they don't care You want you want the room painted green? I'll paint it green tomorrow. You want it blue? I'll paint it blue I don't care. I'm just going to do what you tell me to do And the really sad part is about 20 percent of your organization Is trying to screw you up How many of you read Dilbert? Wally that's Wally right there So in fact this lines up with my leadership model that I developed when I was leading organizational change things what I found just kind of you know Just walked into it and kind of watched what was going on and what I found was about 20 percent of the guys Would go with me if I would just point because they wanted an answer They would go wherever you wanted them to go So you could lead that 20 percent very easily by saying we're going to go there and that all step up That's loot and that go about 50 percent 60 percent of the organization for me Would go if you convinced them you had to educate them you had to show them you had to give them a reason But if you did they would go That last 20 percent down there They would rather go straight to hell and go with you You're too old To know what you're talking about you're too young to know what you're talking about You don't have enough hair to know what you're talking about whatever it is. They're not going And you can spend your life trying to get those guys to go there Uh, if if you haven't I'm going to recommend that you read the book drive by dan pink This is an excellent book that describes why people are motivated What causes them to engage he has three things purpose autonomy mastery And as business architects the work we do can increase those things in our organization if we do them right If we help clarify the vision and the goals of the company and we help clarify them I call it making strategy consumable We can get people To feel like they're part of the purpose of the company if we can get strategies developed correctly what we're doing is building guardrails Everybody talks about strategy being what to do Most of strategy is what not to do and if we can draw those guardrails what people know is I can operate in this space I can make independent decisions. I can be autonomous and I will be safe I will be doing good stuff because I understand I got to be in here And if we talk to people about what capabilities the organization needs in the future They know where to develop their skills and can develop the mastery that matters So the question is where do we go? Here's what I think we need One I think that we have all the operational models we need They're either great or at least pretty good We need to start thinking about how do we describe the people side of this thing? How do we describe the organizational elements here because we are ignoring them You know I talked about earlier that business architects could not agree On a definition. Let me tell you what business architects agree on I have asked and I've counted 2,000 architects this one question And to a person they agree 100% to a person which is harder developing business architecture models and frameworks or Getting the organization behind your models And accepting what you're doing adapting what you're doing use that not one person Not one person thinks that building the models is the hard part And how do we spend our time? Building models gotta put three more colors. That's gonna do it So I think what we need partly is first to stop and start thinking about modeling a little bit differently Or at least how do we do that what we need or we need models that describe the political environment that we're in So we understand How to navigate that that political environment to be successful We need models that identify the cultural elements That enable our success and the cultural elements that hinder our success How do we get our strategies done? What we need are Diagrams that illuminate Those informal and often hidden structures about how information flows in the company Where the where the the power Flows in the company because we think it starts from the top down. That's not the way it works Where pools of resources are that we can tap into we need those kind of models But more importantly than models what we need Is to look at our job differently. We need to look at ourselves. We need to look at our role We need To kind of rethink our role as business architects What our companies desperately need is what we have to offer They desperately need the view of the organization that we can create They definitely desperately need change agents and change leaders. We need to get off the sidelines we need We need to move from describing and modeling and recommending to jump in the arena And get in the fight to make change happen If we become change leaders business architecture is going to be wildly wildly successful Thank you Okay, thank you. Jeff if you Take a seat if you if you would please we'll Have a few questions I'm not sure where the right place for the camera is but maybe here Or maybe here. No, I'll go I'll go here and then we'll be We'll be good. I won't be hidden by one side Somebody's going around. There's a question here. I can see that somebody and and more so we need some questions gathered had some one to start off with why One of the first things you said was if we talk about what business architecture is we'll never agree and We can relate to that in the open group. That was certainly the our first attempt resulted in that in Kind of impasse over over what it was Why is it so hard? Do you think what why is it that they That the folks who think they're doing the same thing or related related disciplines just can't agree on a definition I I love this question by the way because i'm working. I finally have given up arguing about The definition why I don't want to do it. So i'm writing an article about what I think this is architecture is so But part of that is here's the reason I think that's true. One is we define it by At a fairly low level about what we do we look at the activities that we have and we define it there and so what happens is Business architects come from different perspectives I've got business analysts And that's actually the biggest pool of people who become business architects Business analysts come to that perspective around trying to understand requirements and goals enterprise architects come to it through technology and modeling Process guys come through it through a very process-centric view. So they start with a very different view Then they work in organizations that are very different So what I've got is I've got Big complex organizations. I've got smaller More focused organizations. I've got organizational culture I've got the I've got the what I think of as the management context the incentive systems have the things Organized and all that and what you find is the successful business architects Are building a way to work in their environment And what what and all of those environments are different their backgrounds are different the environments are different The other thing that drives it is that's really interesting is as architects progress from beginning to successful Their perspective changes So what you've got is a whole bunch of guys out there who are in fact Working at it slightly differently. So I think to get to that definition. We've got to get past Oh What's driving those activities to be different? And get to something more fundamental about what what is it? We're all trying to accomplish And I think that that's going to be my attack. We'll we'll see what happens. All right. We'll look for the article too. So Question from one of the members of the audience our business architects typically asked to Um clarify strategy execution processes. If not, how can this be addressed? I think what you find today is business architects aren't asked to do anything Most most business architecture teams are started by people like you who look around and say my god We need this and and try to figure out. How do we push that into the organization? And that's the big challenge Uh, so I think I think you don't see that very often interesting enough You do see that when your organization goes to external consultants So I when I worked for Xceler, we had a the model pretty much that I showed you We had a great model But the cap Gemini bane all these guys they have models for that and your executives are asking them for that help So I think they're that that does open the door in in terms of how do you get there? Again, it's going to vary by organization It's going to vary by the culture and everything you have there the key is Think big know what your goal is and start working so for example, one of the one of the ways that I see these guys getting started is They will do a capability assessment And match where the money is going to the value the capability produces for the company That's not hard to do you can do it without senior managers. You can do it by talking with the middle managers in your company I know of one company that did this They found out that less than 10 of their it projects were aligned with their strategic objectives and that well that That that particular thing that that was done by some consultants helping but their enterprise architecture team That resulted in it being totally reformulated A business architecture team being started that now works for the cfo of the company To help take that kind of thinking throughout the company. So you can do it. You can get there. It does take some effort Okay, thank you The big premise in your in your storyline is that things happen sequentially in a waterfall type way Waterfall ish it says can you elaborate elaborate on how business architecture will survive the moon to type of world or the the You know, I had myself a question about agility versus business architecture and all this I guess I won't agree with the premise there. I don't think it is waterfall In and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave I think the again back when you look at what business architects are doing They're all being much more entrepreneurial. They're all they're all being much more dynamic Agile if you want to use that term there again, they're trying to figure out how How do I take this theory this concept? and fit it into this organization And so what you see and this is where I think there's some issues with with the rigidity that people define business architecture is What they're finding is I can't take that theory and you know, apply it directly If you remember the famous yogi bear quote in theory, there's no difference between theory and practice But in practice there is And and I think that's part of what you see the early on guys are trying to apply the theory directly The guys who have been successful has figured out. No, I have to adapt. I have to shift. I have to change I have to iterate and by the way, what you see is those teams don't Stay doing the same thing for very long as they progress as the organization changes all of a sudden somebody comes back and says Can you do this? So I had one of my business architecture clients call me the other day Now they've been doing traditional business architecture work blah blah Their chief strategy officer came to him and said can you develop a plan for me on how we can use our capabilities In totally different ways Then we use them today So in other words, how do we take our capabilities and create new businesses? Out there in the world now All of a sudden he's like holy cow. I've never done that. I don't know how to do that and that's not normally what I do So it's another span. So I do think it's I do think that to be successful. You have to be highly adaptable The term I typically use. Okay. Thank you. I think we're gonna leave it there in view of time. Jeff But um, will you be around for people? Uh, I will be I'll be around I'll be around at least through lunch maybe maybe longer if you have questions I certainly encourage you to stop me. I I like questions. I like challenges. So absolutely Give me shell. You love the debate. I love that debates good