 Long time ago in the in the year of 1979 a great year for the world. I was not alive yet Neither was I I was negative three But in that for there was a company named Avalon Hill and this company put forth a game a game Called Dune based on the science fiction books by Frank Herbert Yes, Frank Herbert's Dune the books that I tried to read once and did not like but that was a lot of time Okay, you only tried to read the first one. All right, I tried to read the first one in like middle school They didn't like it. I don't remember anything of it That's all I'm gonna say well I remember way back when we were to Scott and I were living up here before you know more people moved into the geek houses sphere of influence and we were so bored and crazy and just wanted to play games that we went to this local gaming club a Lot and as a result we met two really cool people from a local college who? Like they took us over and they played board games with us We played a what do we play played star fairs of Catan now? I like the mechanic of star fairs in Catan with the question thing. Yeah, the problem is once you know the answers Yeah, if anyone memorized the answers as an advantage, but I think anyone who doesn't memorize the answers is stupid Yep, and we played other games with them But I remember one time we were at one of their apartments and we're gonna play game I think we're gonna play that King Arthur game and then suddenly we start talking about this Dune game And he brings it out and he shows it to us and he's like yeah This game is super old and super out of print, but it's super awesome And he explains it to us and basically the way he explains us the game is he doesn't actually tell us how the game works He's just goes through the six different races that you're allowed to be and he tells us what their superpowers are now You know you play a game like Starcraft. It's like the Zerg They can make a lot of guys in rush. Oh man the protoss They can make a few guys that are really powerful, but expensive like oh man, right? Well in Dune do you want to go through the list right now? We can do it that we can give people the same experience that we got I think we should because I remember we were talking about asymmetric games that are good and how rare they are And he was like Dune is probably the best asymmetric game ever What we mean by an asymmetric game right is a symmetric game is a game where every player is the same a monopoly Everyone gets the same everyone has the same starting money everyone it starts in the same position It's pretty much everyone is equal in the game It's more like an asymmetric game would be like say you play chess But one side gets four nights and the other side gets four bishops. Yep that not everyone is the same You know it'd be like Starcraft protoss versus erg. You don't you're not doing the exact same thing or like a Fortress America where there's three players with one common goal and then one player who plays a completely different One player is America and but that's more of a versus game But it's a lacy metric one person's America and plays by these rules as opposed to a non versus game. Yep such as Co-op game like Arkham Har. I think most games are versus games. I know I'm just saying saying what okay? So the way he described this game is he basically just told us the powers of all the factions so the Harkonnen See in this game the one the best thing about it is that you look at the board It's so epitomized as the world of Frank Herbert's Dune Yeah, I don't really know anything about Frank Herbert's Dune But I can tell from look playing this game and looking at this game from what other people's reactions to this game That all the rules of this game Mirror the world of Dune so flawlessly like if you like Dune This game is Dune in the same way that the Mario Super Show actually mirrors the Mario game I mean the first time we played it With a full group of people the way the factions kind of ended up allied with each other was very much like what happens in the books Yeah, but anyway, so the Harkonnen they oh, yeah, I forgot what I was gonna say here I gotta get back to that you look at the board. There's two piles of cards spice and treachery And that's pretty much it that's the whole game spice and treachery. Yep so the Harkonnen start with two treachery cards instead of one and Every time they buy one they get another one free and They can hold twice as many in their hand as any other player and There's traders you see everyone has these like generals these leaders that whenever you're in a battle You have to send one of them to lead the battle and before you play the game Everyone shuffles up all their leaders and everyone picks foreign draws them and you look at them and you pick one of your enemy leaders and Decide that they are in your pay and any time you're in a battle involving them You can if you wish but you don't have to call out treachery and Automatically win the battle and kill their other all this business happens and you win and it's super fun and awesome It's good. So uh the Harkonnen they get as traders every single person that they see in that stage of the game So everyone else has at most one trader the Harkonnen could have as many as four people under their pay Everybody was gaga so think about that power right? That's an insanely strong power almost cheating You don't even know how the game works, but you can tell twice as many treachery cards as everyone else Being able to hold more of them and get free ones Having four times as many traders in your pay as anyone else That's ludicrous and that is why this game is amazing is because Everyone plays by has different powers that let them break the rules and Everyone's power is ludicrous every single player's power is ludicrous so the guild right now in this game When you want to ship troops from your reserves on to the board You have to pay to ship them there and it costs more or less depending on where you ship them You don't pay the bank. You don't pay some sort of abstract bullshit while you do usually no Well, if you're shipping troops you pay the guild the guild is a player So if Scott's the guild and I want to ship people on to the board. I pay Scott Yep Everyone pays sky keep in mind that most players start with the mass majority of their people not on the board And they have to pay to ship them on to the and also when people die and go to the tanks You have to buy them back and then you have to ship them back again. Oh Yeah, the guild also unfair that is also They can take their turn at any point during the turn if they want I thought that was an optional it is but most people play with all those rules Okay, and if no one wins the game at the after 15 turns they win by default. Oh My god think about how crazy that is but the Harkonnen was equally crazy So the Fremen now this is with the optional rules But everyone plays with those in addition to their normal troops three of their troops are elite they move faster They're not destroyed by other business on the board and they're mostly immune to the storm And they can predict where the storm is going and that sort of thing great if no one's won at the end of the game and Certain conditions, which are not that hard to make come to pass come to pass They just win and if they don't win then the guild wins and They like if the worm comes up they can ride the worm somewhere and they don't have to pay to ship their guys onto the board ah Ultimate enemies of the guild. So the emperor has five of these elite units that he can deal with and you know Those treachery cards you bid on them every round and oftentimes you pay a lot for those treachery cards You don't pay the bank you pay the emperor People are buying treachery cards all the time. Yeah, you pretty much have infinite money throughout the entire game if you're the emperor So the old ladies the Benegaserit they can see anytime two factions are on a space on the board They have to fight to the death the Benegaserit can if they choose Coexist with other people's units and not cause a fight also Whenever they're fighting they can tell you what card they want you or do not want you to play during the combat You know what you have to do what they say Yeah, you're fighting me right now. Yeah, don't use any weapons in this fight No, seriously, you can't use any weapons because I said so because I'm an old lady and If anyone ships anyone to the board they get to take one unit and put it in the middle of the board for free every time So like if you know it doesn't matter who ships if if I put five guys on the board the old ladies Put one guy in the middle if rim puts three guys on the board the old ladies put one guy in the middle and After all the factions are picked and before the game starts the Benegaserit secretly determine one player and one turn If that player or an alliance including that player wins on that turn They don't win the Benegaserit win instead So if you let's say the the old ladies say they secretly they write down Scott's gonna win on turn three and Scott wins on turn three Scott doesn't really win on turn three the old ladies win on turn three So a viable strategy for the old ladies is help someone else win on the turn that you predict Yeah, there are a lot of fun ways to do that too. Now. How's the tradies? They when you know when you bid on treachery cards, you don't get to see what they are It's not like a treatise and then you bid on them. So, uh, they get to look at every card before it gets bit on Now now now there's another fun rule in this game that makes this power so much more interesting You see and this is what really sold me on the game You know most games like showgun or risk or whatever you can make deals with people But there's no kind of in-game mechanic for it. It's just alright I'll ally with you, but there's nothing to enforce it You can just break them all the time and the alliances really never play a big part in the game Because you can't trust anyone as Pete learned so famously the first two times we played showgun Yep, but there's other games like settlers where you can trade very specific things in the game with very specific set of rules And it's very much like guided by the game. Mm-hmm in Dune You can trade with that as long as you do not violate the rules of the game and do not trade leaders or Treachery cards or powers those the only things you can't trade you can make any deal You want with anyone and the thing is you can make deals secretly, but then they're not part of this rule They're just part of a normal game You can do it or not do it no one has to follow through if you decide to make a real deal like say Scott And I agree when you're bargaining like when you're bargaining like I can bargain with Ram off to the side quietly I can just beg whisper whisper whisper, right? And we could even make a deal quietly, but it's not bound by these rules, right? So we make a deal quietly then I if I break that deal whatever it doesn't matter It was we were just talking quietly that it doesn't mean anything, but if we decide all right Let's do this we can come back out and say all right if Scott attacks Scott Johnson next round with 17 men blah and blah and blah and then we and we ally on and we agree not to break our alliance up on the next Nexus, then I will give him 25 spice right now Now I give him the 25 spice It's not like there's a penalty if he doesn't follow through he must It's the rule if you make a deal out in the open and you shake on it And it's it's a locked-in deal. It is now the rules of the game. You must do it You must so with the house. I can see all the cards I could say sell people the privilege of knowing what the card is before the bidding or say I'm fighting it real hard with the Harkonnen next to me and The Harkonnen just bought a bunch of cards. I could be like, I'll pay you five spice if you tell me and no one else What cards he just got nah or anything like that you can do all sorts of stuff You also get to see ahead of time where the spice is going to be Now think about that every faction in this game has a crazy fucking power and if you look at anyone You think well, they're gonna win no matter what but everyone you say that about everyone And I think that is what makes this game great. Yes, like hey, there's six races. Okay, each one is different Okay, this one can basically cheat. How do they lose? Well, that one can cheat to in fact They can all cheat just in a different way And I think that's one of the things that makes this game really fun is you know Whenever you play any sort of game right the game is all about restrictions And if you learn anything from Counter-Strike Sometimes breaking the rules in a game can be fun because if you play a game and you have to obey all the rules And the rules are really, you know Constrictive and restrictive and they don't let you do everything you want to do then it can be unfun and occasionally You know if someone gives you the ability to break those rules even once it's like yes Yes, I can break those rules. God damn it. Yes I'm gonna kick ass now and everyone gets to kick ass in a different way all the time So it's like yes I'm kicking ass and everyone's kicking ass all the time and everyone kicks each other's asses all the time now the other thing I didn't mention yet because I think I said something about oh well Alliance this game Handles alliances in perhaps the most awesome way any game ever has you see Whenever a worm comes up from the spice deck a nexus occurs and basically the game stops Until all the alliances are settled and any number of players can form an alliance and you can only be in one alliance You don't have to be an alliance you can break them whatever you want But until the nexus ends everyone can form alliances as they please with whatever conditions they want Yep, and uh if I see to win the game There are what five strongholds on Dune on Arrakis if any one player or any Alliance of players has at least one token on Three or more of these fortresses at the end of a turn at the end of any turn the game is immediately over and they win Yep So let's say I have two fortresses and Scott has two fortresses never when I was as buckets Maybe the friend and have like one fortune the worm shows up the worm shows up We just decide that we're gonna win and we do so Scott and I say alright We ally great if we still have at least three fortresses at the end of that turn we win Yep, unless the old lady's predicted that one of us would win on that turn. Yes now this rule I Mean I wondered how it would work out But the first time we played it with a full group of people the worm came up like right away And I was the Harkonnen, so I had a fortress already and I had a bunch of guys already on the board and I look around look at Alex like alright We both have a ton of money and a ton of guys and two fortresses between us want to just fucking win and We look around and yeah, we allied then we won and there's pretty much nothing anyone could have done about it Nope, and the thing is theoretically you could make an alliance of five players and just fuck whoever was the sixth player And win yeah, and that seems really out of the spirit of the game But at the same time I have no problem with it I have no problem because I don't feel like that'll happen a lot because think about this This is the game is much like it it seduces you much like the power of spice and why doon was the way it was in the story All right I could just be nice and share my victory with all of you But what if I act like I'm gonna be all nice and then when the next nexus comes up before the game's over I Fuck everybody and win on my own That's so much more awesome than sharing my victory with these posers or what if Why should I ally with four of you when I can just ally with Scott and then our victory is so much more meaningful you suckers Yeah, you want it basically, you know if you are actually someone who cares about winning Which you should be if you're playing a game Otherwise you're playing it wrong then you're gonna sort of naturally want to win with as few people as possible Why would you you know, I mean you could technically always win like worm everyone allies game over but that's lame You want to do something awesome and the motivation you have in playing the game is gonna cause the game to always be awesome And I remember when the first nexus came up It's like pretty much everyone formed these gigantic alliances right away And then everyone kind of sat there for a minute and then pretty much all the alliances collapsed As everyone started arguing and fighting and for like 20 minutes we argued about it and it was great Yep people like well I'll agree to do this and I'll smash this And that that alone made this game worth the price of purchase that that moment when that first worm came up was so great I think this game is most similar to diplomacy in that you know There's some rules of stuff that goes on in the board and you sort of have to master and understand those things They're also gonna be a really weak position But as soon as you master those things right and it's not too hard to master them Just play the game a few times eventually the game becomes all the wheeling and dealing is the stuff that really matters and all the other stuff is sort of a given because it's unlike a lot of other games like you play a game like I don't know Vinci, right and Who wins and who loses pretty much comes down to the final turn You know it's like it's a close race the close race the close race is the final turn Who got the most points in the final turn? It was Scott. Yeah in this game. There are five spaces on the board You need three to win a lot of people start with one already Yeah, so it's not too hard to get three pretty much every turn is Like the last turn someone can win at any moment so every turn you play it like it's the last turn and You're pretty much on the edge of your seat fighting for the game Every single turn and that is crazy awesome that like every single turn could be the last turn now a guy whose name is gnarly though tap Aha, you know gnarly gn Adam Prince. Okay on board game G post today review that I think sums up everything I want to say about yeah I know I saw this review there when I was doing the pre-show research like five minutes ago ten minutes ago and This guy doesn't for a half hour. It was well His review is so much better than our review I feel like our show is worthless in the in the face of his review now Basically, I'm going to read the first few paragraphs of his review brief And I think this will tell you more so than anything We have said what makes doing great and if you ever play diplomacy You'll know this feeling because Dune if nothing else is the kind of game Where if you're not close friends with someone or you have trouble not taking things personally You will lose Friendships if you play this game much like if you play diplomacy, maybe Alright, there are a few reviews out there. I'll skip that paragraph Dune gives you and the other players the absolute Unrestricted and utterly unbeatable chance to be a jerk. That's right Dune allows you to be a huge jerk and all in the name of fun and really what's more fun than being a jerk Nothing being a jerk to plenty of people at once jackpot This game, let me tell you right away like in the first game I was like I went over to Scott Johnson kind of on the slime like alright We're next to each other and we both have ornithopters. Let's just Agree to ally and then win as soon as we can and that didn't happen. I totally stabbed him in the back immediately but at the same time So many of the things I did in this game were such asshole moves like alright It doesn't really cost me much to send some guys over there to attack so and so, but you know what? I got spiced to kill. I'm just gonna ruin their chances of winning this round just because it doesn't cost me much Yeah, I would basically like I when I was the emperor I didn't have it's it's hard for the emperor to actually fight because his guys all start off the board So we take some a while to get all his guys on the board So just I would basically send guys out to their deaths in stupid battles They couldn't win just to make sure the game didn't end and I would just basically suicide people. Oh also the way combat works I'll basically I'm gonna roll this down real simply the mechanic You need to care about is that you both have a battle wheel with numbers from zero to twenty And you can only have 20 guys in a space so that works out when you have 20 guys Yeah, so when you fight with someone basically you play cards whatever behind your shield and a leader But most importantly you each dial a number from zero up to the number of guys you have there So if I have ten guys in the space fighting I could put the wheel on any number from zero to ten now Then you compare numbers which is basically the number you dialed plus the battle value of your leader Plus any other effects, but there aren't many whoever has the highest number wins now whoever had whoever lost all Their guys die and they lose the space But the person who wins loses no matter what a number of guys equal to what they dial So if I have ten guys and I dialed the number five if I win I lose five guys if I lose I lose all ten guys So I can dial ten which would give me a much better chance of winning because I have such a big number But if I win I lose all the guys and it basically it's a kamikaze attack. It's so great It's great, but uh continue reading that review there. All right pros of the dune game Allows you to act like a complete jerk for an entire session. All right, Khan opponents tend to be jerks Bro a flavorful atmospheric game with enjoyable tense gameplay. I think tense is right on Khan may take a bit too long to play for some people doesn't take that long It's actually is surprisingly not long. Well, no the first game we played didn't take long The second game we played went on forever Okay Pro it's based on a well-loved book series Con extremely hard to locate and purchase without spending enough money to put someone's get through a four-year college program Yeah, this game was made in 1979. It is out of print. There's there was a new copy on eBay I bid 80 bucks on it went for a hundred something Eventually there was a used copy on eBay and with good timing I was able to get it for $40 and it's luckily in almost perfect condition So that was lucky, but this is a very hard game to get yeah, and don't get me started on the expansions You're not gonna find those no But this game is almost impossible to buy isn't it great that we're reviewing it so glowingly Making you want to play a game that you can't get yeah, luckily the rules are well known and on the internet And there's a con here. This is probably the most important con of the game This may lead you to the urge to carve lacquer paint as a sketch in scribe program virtually tattoo or otherwise Overdue your own personal copy of the game a lot of people out there have made Their own copies of Dune they get the rulebook and they look at pictures on the internet and whatnot and they they make Their own copy of the game because you can't buy a copy of the game now luckily There is a computer simulation version of this game that from what I gather is all like 99% perfect That's good, and it's free. I'm gonna link to it. I highly recommend you get some friends together Don't play this over the internet with idiots get a bunch of computers hot However, you need to do it and play it with all of you in the same room. This game is so fun If you are willing to deal with the fact that this game is incredibly hardcore Yeah, it's a super hardcore game I mean this is a nerd game from 1979 before there were Internet's before there are really nerds and geeks So this is when you had to program a computer with like basic if that right so everything was hard for geeks back then So this game is included in that is a hard game It is not easy, but it is a good game, and it is awesome, and if you're ever at a con I think I want to run this game at a convention. Whoa, I think we should run into kinetic on oh Unless they say no when I doubt they will because kinetic on is like my favorite little con We'll have to have people sign up for it though Oh, yes, but low quality like walk-ins play the rare out-of-print game Yeah, but I'm so about this game being run at cons by me. Hmm. Good God. All right, but anyway, seriously If you if you have money buy this game You can get it on eBay for a hundred something dollars or less maybe you gotta try really hard I got it for 40 so try it on the with that program first to make sure you like it I think you'll like it or just you know Hang out with a bunch of friends for a weekend in college and make your own set. It's not that hard Yeah, I mean it's it's a map which is a circle with some lines on it It's a you can even just print out a picture on the web. You need 20 token 20 colored tokens of six colors you can buy those at the craft This is my favorite one someone made like this wood lacquered one. It looks so hot. Is it yes They won't sell it to you. We could make this. Yeah, but by make it. I mean pay someone to make it Actually, this is we should do another show on this because the only board game anyone should ever make for themselves is crock and all Tigers and Euphrates maybe see the thing is looking at these pictures is inspiring me again So I've had this idea for a long time that I play board games a lot like board games are a huge part of my life And I feel like nothing would be like you know when you go to like a ping-pong competition, right or a pool Like you go to a pool hall and there's always that one guy who brings his own pool cue or brings his own ping-pong Faddle go to the bowling alley the guy with his own bowling ball as opposed to you or rented an alley ball for a dollar Your alley shoes alley shoes alley ball. You gotta go play golf. He's got his own clubs He didn't rent any you know his own golf cart back when I was a kid when I was actually going off Go to mini golf. I would bring my own putter to the mini golf. Yeah, and you know what? I'm not good at mini golf anymore because I don't play it that much granted Who's the best at mini golf Scott? That's right though I got to say it's it got kind of close at the last Wildwood It did it got real close. I know I think I lost to somebody you did you lost to me I want someone else I win most of the time he does but I never do poorly Well, you didn't do poorly, but to a couple of people did better than you last time Yeah, but like a few strokes, but it no it came down I remember because last time we played mini golf. Oh, we got to do show mini golf All right, I was down by a lot like the first the first nine. I was sucking I sixed out like three times, but then in the second half it was nothing but twos and I caught up Yeah, but this game that we're not talking about mini golf even though Arrakis is kind of a sand trap Sand trap for your soul. Okay, but yeah, I had this idea that perhaps I should make my own set of gaming accoutrements Well, I mean RPG people already have this they have their own dice They have their own pencils and their own clipboards for their own character I'm thinking like if I had a set of four tokens like silver edge like cheap silver like sterling silver With belt on the bottom like these are my leaders for T&E and like I make stuff for all the games that I care about a lot I make stuff for those games my own set These are my pawns that I will use and I play chess Yep And for like every other game just make a set of generic tokens and pawns and things that are all kind of themed to me Yeah, these are my stones so when I play go and I think though, you know because board games It's sort of like unlike other games, you know individual sports like, you know golf or bowling where each You know each person has their own individual equipment a board game is sort of like the shared piece of equipment where everyone manipulates the same thing So I think it's really much better to just make a custom set of the game That's what most people do rather than have your own stuff I mean you put your fancy silver tokens on the plain T&E board Or you just make a fancy T&E set with like, you know the fancy board and the fancy pieces and the fancy Yeah, but the thing is I always look forward because Scott and I we play games at conventions a lot and we pretty much always win Partly because we're obsessive about games and we play like played in T&E at a convention I've played T&E so many times in my life Yep But imagine going to a gaming con like you're like, oh man I'm gonna play settlers of katana and then some dude sits down and pulls out his custom set of cities That are intricately carved silver cities with gemstones in them And he's like, all right kid. Let's play You have your own cities for this game. Yeah, and your own dice. Yeah, and your own robber Yes, when I roll seven you'll be twice robbed But the one thing is you could make very generic pieces and I think it'd be a cool thing at least playing with friends Yeah, you could make generic pieces that are applicable to many games I mean like 10 colored tokens that are you know, you could play with those and almost Plus the thing is if like a bunch of us have a set like that That's the kind of thing we're say we're thinking about an idea for a board game or an expansion for a board game We own we have all these pieces now that make it a lot easier to kind of visualize what we're thinking Yeah, I think better though to design board games It's much better to just buy like chips and tokens and ponds and bulk than to try that I am kind of thinking about making a custom t&e because that is my favorite game ever Yeah, we'd have to count the things and it might be yeah Plus the thing is we could make one that's kind of customizable We could like make individual tiles to lay down and theme t&e Uh, no, I like the theme of t&e. That's what I like about it so much It feels like playing this ancient like mess of a tamey. I know I know I know it's so perfect All right. We're done. I think we're done. We're done. The dune game is great The spice must flow and uh, there's there are also nukes. So great This has been geek nights with rim and scott special. Thanks to dj pretzel for the opening music Be sure to visit our website at www.frontroadcrew.com Where you'll find show notes links our awesome forum a link to our frapper map and links to all the rss feeds We say feeds plural because geek nights airs four nights a week covering four different brands of geekery Mondays are science and technology Tuesdays. 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