 Hey everybody great to see you again here and today. I have a special guest that I will introduce in just a moment We're neighbors, so we're both here in Boulder, Colorado And just have been friends for quite a while do similar things But I always learn from my colleagues and today we're going to talk about biotoxin illness So I will introduce Dr. Terry Fox in just a moment But before I do just a few basic housekeeping things you all probably know by now We have a YouTube channel and a podcast that's going live And so you can listen to this in all of my previous episodes there If you just go to YouTube and search my name Jill Carnahan You will find that and I would love to have you subscribe so you get notified if I do new interviews You can also find me on the website Jill Carnahan comm lots and lots of free resources And if you're listening and you don't get my newsletter, you're missing out. I've got tons of free stuff blogs recipes products all kinds of things and It's comes out weekly and of course, we never share your information The retail site is dr. Jill health comm and you can find our mold detox box there Which might talk about mold today with biotoxin illness and many other things so welcome Dr. Terry Fox It is great to have you here neighbor and friend I want to introduce you formally and then I will ask you to tell us a little bit about your journey into functional medicine So let me grab your bio here So dr. Terry Fox originally from Virginia She went to James Madison University where she completed her undergrad degree in 1991 and later served as the director of health care and health Education for the God the God's child project in Antigua Guatemala This project provided educational scholarships for street kids and orphans from the guerrilla wars This is where she received her inspiration to go to medical school in 1996 She began medical school at the University of California, Southern San Francisco where she simultaneously trained in botanical medicine So definitely want to hear more about that today Terry She studied with several master herbal as she practices How do you say this sir? Yeah, meditation. Oh, sir. Yeah. Thank you Okay, sir an ancient transcendental meditation that comes from the Vedic scripture Dr. Fox moved to Boulder in 2001 where she did her internship at St. Anthony's family medicine program in Denver And after internship she completed her board certification in integrative and holistic medicine She then trained in functional medicine and now integrates Western natural botanical and functional medicine at her practice in Boulder Dr. Fox, thank you for spending time with me today. I'm delighted to have you for having me You're welcome and I start everyone out with kind of how did you get here? We heard like the formal story, but there's always a little piece of the heart and soul and it sounds like with Guatemala That was like a life-changing adventure. So how'd you get from Guatemala to functional medicine in Boulder? Okay, that was kind of a long road So I Had not planned to go to medical school. I was studying international studies in college and I Went and lived and I was volunteering in Guatemala with street kids and orphans from Baguaria wars And basically we had a educational scholarship program where The kids could we put them in school They mostly were living in the trash dump. So they were homeless and we have families kind of That would take them in and we pay them a stipend and then we put them in school And if they kept their grades up, they won their scholarship And so we started we're trying to break that chain the circle of poverty by getting them educated and so I was in charge of healthcare and health education for this non-profit in Guatemala and Live there for two years I loved it was probably two of the best years of my life And I'll never forget all these kids that I worked with they were they were just the sweetest things in the world and I was planning to get my masters in public health and I worked with all these doctors and residents and med students who came down to volunteer for the project and You know got inspired by what they could do and then also I had a mentor Who was one of my greatest heroes that was doing the most beautiful work? And she was an MD and she sort of took time out of what she was doing to sit me down and say All right, what are you doing with your life? Where are you going? And I was like me You know and I told her what I wanted to do and what my dream was and she was like you gotta go to med school And I was like you're crazy. She was like, what's your hold up? And I was like, I don't even like lunch No, it's like you'll get over that in the first two minutes If you want to you know make an impact in the world and be able to do third world medicine and you know Make big changes you're gonna need your you're gonna need to go to med school So I came home From Guatemala and I hadn't done any of my science prerequisites. I had a couple years in my 20s I'm doing all the sciences and all the pre-rex Yeah, I sort of was doing it like if it if I like it and it flows and it goes well Yeah, but if not forget it and get a remaster from public health And it was kind of like my way was pretty lit from there like everything worked out And I did really well and you know and then I really sort of wanted to go to natural pathic school Because that's what resonated with me more Than the alipathic model And I think in the end I just decided that if I went to natural pathic school I can't necessarily integrate the Western and do all of it But if I did the I could handle the Western and get through that school your training You can integrate the natural pathic and the functional and the holistic and all of that later So so yeah, so I did it Wow, I love that so similar because I remember thinking my head the heart of a natural path and like I looked at carbetic natural pathic traditional Chinese medicine and that resonated a hundred percent But then very similarly and I did a little mission work in Honduras It was a shorter way shorter So similar in that I was like if I ever want to do anything like that The alipathic medicine model is really a little easier to actually like practice medicine in another country or And so I joke about I like infiltrated the system And you know we both like because we we have these hearts that are way bigger in scope and How we approach it and probably in philosophy too But I'm so glad we did because I feel like I got a great education and I don't it's not like I tossed that out I feel like that's the foundation of great diagnostic skills And then we add to it our toolbox is bigger, which is amazing Exactly So today we're going to dive into biotoxin illness and first of all I want to just define for you as listening biotoxins. We put this big kind of garbage basket term that includes mold That's one of the primary biotoxins, but this can also be from Lyme and Babesia Bartonella Ehrlichia all these other infections. It could be from really anything Biologically that is a toxin so from infections or from the environment And these things cause a lot of havoc in the body But what I'd love to know next is how did you get into biotoxin illness? Do you have a story and experiences that brought you this direction? Yeah, um, so I was um You know drawn to functional medicine after residency And you know did all that functional medicine Conferences and loved it not resonated, you know along with my botanical medicine background But the looking for the underlying dysfunction instead of treating the cause and and in my mind like functional medicine kind of took The natural world and the herbs and everything I'd studied and all the stuff that you knew and like Got really gritty into the science and the evidence with that and it was that combo that I was like Oh, it is exactly what like I need because I I like the the woo woo stuff as well But not necessarily always in practice and you know like that. So the functional medicine was great um, and so I was doing functional medicine My uh, my breath I'm from Virginia So a very Lyme endemic region my brother first got Lyme. That was kind of my first You know looking into it from functional medicine holistic medicine and learning just like a tiny And then um, and then I don't know if you had this experience too, but like doing functional medicine for fatigue and sleep and headaches and everything all these you know chronic illnesses that we deal with I felt like in the beginning Like maybe 80% of my patients got better and 20% of them just wouldn't yes They work on the adrenals you work on the hormones you get them sleeping and they don't budge And those all sort of turned out to have Lyme And so that kind of got me into the Lyme world And then my son um got really really sick when he was 9 I think started when he was 8 years old and it kind of looked it was it was sort of gradual like he was this really Like just the real seeking fearless maniac really active little boy And um suddenly he started like he was stiff when he'd get up and he'd stiff when he'd get out of the cars He'd start walking down the stairs sideways and I feel like do your knees hurt? What's going on and then he'd go no and he walked down them normal and I knew something was not Right, but he would kind of deny that anything hurt and so I started like doing simple Things on him like maybe it's a gluten like maybe it's a food sensitivity And you know I started wanting it to the last thing I ever wanted was for it to be Lyme because as well at that point It was treating Lyme and those were all my patients. Yeah, and so of course it's in the back of my head I'm terrified of it. I don't want to test him for it yet So eventually I test him for it and it's positive. He's a cdc positive Lyme as as do I not just at Demix and I ended up taking him to see Dr. Harris. Have you met Steve Harrison? In california he was yeah, so um he uh treated him And um, he was amazing and he said you have to get him tested for mold and this is Joe Seven years ago Seven or eight years ago Went and a line doc knew to test him for mold first and he was like he gave me one of the I think old school like real-time labs, you know, I did no provocation I just had a beat that and you know and then sent it in and it was through the roof Um, and so we had no I mean I had hints there was weird smells musty smells. I'd had People in and I had people tell me everything was fine You know, there was parts of the story that are actually Kind of relevant for a lot of patients because one of the things that happened was once I figured out Like that the mold on him was positive and I was trying to figure out where it was in the house I had one person out to test the house And they found there was like a water leak just a small little water leak in the attic space above his bedroom And they were like, oh, you just got to get that fixed and I was like, okay So we actually went out of the country the whole family for two weeks And I had it fixed when I was gone and I got back And he got so sick He nine out of ten pain. He didn't get out of bed for six months Wow, he had this like horrific like migraine that just didn't let up no matter what I did for six months And you know now looking back you could tell me exactly what happened, right? Yes, they fixed the water leak, but they opened up the attic Everywhere and I didn't know that remediation meant this whole other thing Um, and so then he got you got yeah, it was awful. So then I got sick he was sick And I ended up finding somebody a mutual colleague who you know, John Bodie. Um From mold pros who I think dr. Hooper from real-time gave me his name. Oh need Yeah, dr. Hooper gave me his his name many many years ago And I called him and he came and he looked at the house and He cut a hole in the vapor barrier. So in our crawl space. This was in 2013. Wow So now it's 2014, but it's right after the floods and we thought we were clean from the floods And he cut the vapor barrier and there was three feet of water under our entire house Oh my goodness idea. Yeah So I just pause here because there's some really important things first of all You and I are doctors and so we know this we know better and we know now we know a lot about mold back then we didn't but This is so common and then for a patient who doesn't have any idea. It's like it's the um It's not the exception to the rule and what you just said earlier about the remediation fixing the water leak Without containing and then taking care of the dust after remediation. I want to clarify for those people listening This is such a key because even a great remediation if you have dust in your hVAC system And debris around the house from previous before it was fixed and you don't claim that that dirt debris dust Dead mold will still cause reactions. People get worse. They think they care about and then they get worse It's like you blow it up. I was thinking like you blew it up. You opened it up. Yeah, so I didn't mean to disturb that it lets off. Yes, that's what it does what it says. Actually, this is important It's nano particles. Yes And they go into the fibers of your drywall and your wood and every and your books and your clothing and Exactly part of this is like this behind a wall, you know, like stack your ketomium some of the worst of the black tuxi molds They're sticky. They're wet. They like dark spaces. So they will often be undisturbed behind a wall with no visible evidence I can't tell you the number of people who've said I've had an inspector one, two, three, four They all say everything's clean kind of like you and yet I know from their physical history They're almost has to be a mold issue. So then when you open that cavity You are letting all you know what break loose because it then explodes and contaminates your entire environment And so sometimes say you know, there's an issue behind the wall You are better off to wait And not do anything until you know, you can get the right remediation in there in the cleaning Great Because otherwise, yeah people that I've said don't even don't even don't do it yourself, right? Don't fix it. I'd rather you leave it than have it done not correctly. So like don't you There's a few things you got to trust me on and one of them is like you can't just call whoever you found on google There's just a very few people that do the whole containment and remediation Really well Yeah, so back to your story. I didn't mean to rub that's so important relevant to everybody listening So back to you opened it up. He got way worse was in bed. You did you get sick at that time too? Yes, so I was having migraines anxiety insomnia. I mean, I'm sure between the fact that my Kid is sick and I'm a doctor and I should be able to figure this out And then and then the mold itself I'm you know mold sensitive very mold sensitive But so once we figured it out Um, we you know could begin the cleanup process We had to move out and everything and then we sold the house. I didn't I was like I'm not living in here. I don't believe with that amount of water in the house that we could ever clean this so um So we moved and um, I moved into a place nearby and My son started getting better almost immediately. So He he had some shifts on a couple weeks of binders And then um, then he went on antifungals and we moved out and then he just he got he got better Is this nine month migraine went away? Wow It was amazing. Yeah, it was incredible and and then it was you know It was a pretty quick recovery. He's a kid So, you know, he still had the line things and he still needed more rats, but he was he's also very driven Yeah So he was like determined to get back in the game Amazing and what you mentioned here is really common too. I'm sure you see the same thing I feel like there's tens of thousands of people walking around that have gotten bit by spiders or ticks or some Arachnoid that carried a vector like Borrelia, Barton, Elibaba, BC, Ehrlichia, and they're fine So why is it that there's an important point here because what often happens is someone's walking around they have lime And they're fine. They don't need treatment. Not everybody who has that I think we tested the whole population We'd find 10 times the number of cases that we're treating Because their immune system is robust enough to keep that bug in check, right? But then you throw a person like that into a moldy environment like your son who was otherwise Were rust and healthy and mold is a known immunotoxin so it weakens immune state in many levels And then that weakened state allows for these old infections to pop up and start causing symptoms So what you just told us was once he was out of the mold the line was less of an issue Almost a non-issue in some ways, right? Yeah, so that's so funny and interesting to listen to you because that's almost the exact same speech I get by patients. I love it So I kill them and I make up numbers here Like imagine we did an iGenX or a dna connections of you know, Test on a random sampling of the population of the northeast my guess is Some 90 percent must have exposure and it's some less than 10 percent are chronically ill So what's what has you know, lime take one person down and somebody else had a little febrile illness That was you know, we could do it did fine And so you know, I always talk to my patients about lime and biotoxin illness is that you sort of like You went your whole system to be optimized and strong and like way up here and then the bugs to be dormant and on the ground and not active and and Mold will sort of tip that system. I feel more intensely than anything else Now gut dysfunction will toxic burden heavy metals all that stuff But if if there's mold I feel like they'll never get better from the lime patients just hurts and hurts And so I always deal with the the mold first in a lime Patient. Yeah, I love that. We're so aligned. This is neat. I knew we'd have it So so sun got better you got better you moved And then since then no any major other exposures or incidents has it been pretty Yeah, I've had a few I feel like I feel like those of us that are more sensitive and then had a big exposure they tend to kind of follow us. Yeah, I know All my patients are like, oh, how am I ever gonna find a place that make you will it just will Does happen and kind of everywhere your resiliency around it'll get better and what I've really learned is that you know Mold still happen nothing as bad as that. I mean I have had some other big bad exposures that were hard Um, but I know what to do now like I know how to take care of it. I know how to take care of myself I know the signs, you know all of that so um It feels like it doesn't feel so out of control anymore, you know, like I can I know how to deal with that and I don't My my autonomic nervous system doesn't freak out if there's you know, maybe I'm walking into a moldy space any longer I love that so so similar pathway because I feel too a lot of people say well Is it possible to get well and and still travel and do that and now of course with cova? We're not traveling but um, I in the last several years since my mold exposure. Mine was mostly in 2014 and before And in the beginning I was highly sensitive. It was hard to go to hotels and stuff And now um, I mean I've gone to Maui and had horrible mold exposures And I like you said the key is I want I teach patients to find their symptoms that they know This is a mold exposure. Everybody's different We have a little sinus pressure and headache. I'll be a little more foggy or tired or There's one if it's ketomine I call it the narcoleptic mold because it makes me fall asleep Like I literally have to now I've been trying to figure out like what is it? I think it actually causes a little bit of pot because I get orthostatic Those of you listening I get low blood pressure and I can't stand up I gotta lay down because after but it's weird because that particular one is almost like Always causes me the same. It's a personality I think so it's like this the signature of what it causes So if you have been exposed and you can kind of learn like dr. Fox may Have of what it looks like how it feels to be exposed And then you know for me I take charcoal. I get hydrated and maybe take a nap And usually if I'm not ongoing only being exposed within hours, I can feel better and of course there's pc There's glutathione. What are some tricks you found when you do get an exposure to get better quicker quickly? um Yeah, well one thing I tell my patients is that the alarm bell is a gift Mike when sure hypersensitized you won't stay that hypersensitized But the last thing you want to do is end up in another place That's moldy and get really sick for two years before you figure it out. So think of those That hypersensitization and those those alarm bells, you you know, they they get nervous They're never going to be able to enter a building. But really that's a that's a helpful alarm bell You're not going to end up where you were you're going to take your finders and you're going to get out of there Um, but what do I so I love IV? Phosphatidopulina glutathione So if I was to have a good exposure somewhere else, like I'd probably get an IV when I got back And then um, yeah, then I travel with I travel with finders just in case and you know I try not to stay in the moldy space and then yeah, um, you know when I get back, I'll do a lot of glutathione and Um transfer factor person, you know, the whole thing Oh, I love that. Maybe we'll talk through in a minute What's that when it clears a lot quicker? Yeah, yeah No, I love that. In fact, I've even started to have a little travel. Um, again, I haven't traveled for a while But I bought a travel like fog group. It's like a little portable fogging system So if I ever wasn't in a room and I couldn't leave I could fog it and actually feel a little clearer So that's available if if patients want that. Um So let's talk about just like approach a little bit of an approach to what would so say someone comes in You think they have mold. How would you approach basic, uh confirmation testing and then let's talk a little bit about treatments Okay, um, so if I suspect mold, um, I Well, so I do the the my lab to say the names of the lab. Absolutely So I do the real time my prefer the real-time labs Um, but and then the reason is is because I do it provoked So I do and I'd be a phosphatidicoline and glutathione And both of those things pull out mycotoxins the toxins that molds to create neurotoxins pull them out into the urine Um, and then I have them wait an hour and then give the urine sample Um, and the reason for that for the listeners is just that people that don't people that detox mold Well, don't get sick from that. So they they're not the ones ending up in my office So if I just do a urine sample, you know, if they're detoxing it well I'm pulling it out in a urine. They're probably not going to get as sick from it as the people that Genetically don't, you know, pull it out. Well, so I find that, you know They're used to be like I used to have all these patients that I knew it was mold Like they knew they had an exposure and I had all the symptoms And I would do the test and the test would end up being negative And then I finally learned, you know, if I do the IV first Um, that like somebody that was negative would have an ocarotoxin may have 10 or 12 after an IV And so so that's my preferred way of doing it is it's not cheap between the IV and the and the test So, um, I prefer that one and if that um, they can't do that or it doesn't work to get an IV or they Um, you know, don't live nearby or whatever then I also use the Great Plains labs here in mycotoxin I like that one a lot too Um, and I use that on kids because you know, I don't want to force them to an IV You can get an Oat test too, which is organic acid. I like that you can get those two together Oh, yeah, I get both. Yes Um vibrant use them, but vibrant. He's a mycotoxins too and I I use vibrant a little bit. I've used it here and there. I don't have a ton of experience with it yet Are you using it? I am I'm really liking I feel like I get a little bit more accuracy on the ketomium and starchy than I do on the Great Plains Or the real time But I'm playing with all of them like they're all good tests if you're listening and your doc uses one They're all good as long as you know what you're doing. Yeah, agree with real time. You need to um, um provoke Great Plains says don't provoke Vibrant says you probably don't need to the vibrant is actually most sensitive So you could get a false positive meaning you don't really have mold illness But you're catching such sensitivity for maybe we talk about food exposures. Usually these are not food exposures You and I know that So I think the error with vibrant is it so accurate? Could it be picking up people who really don't have a lot of Texas? So sensitive a little less Okay, yeah, okay, but you're enjoying it. How does it compare price wise? I think they're all the same except real time might still be just a pinch higher They went down on their pricing. Oh, perfect. Okay. Good Um, and then I will do if the patient has um Uh insurance coverage I'll do some of the biome workers and Um, so I usually do a c4a and mmp9. I'll do a c3a too um And then, you know, depending on their insurance and what I'm thinking if I might add the vip and the msh Yeah, if they don't want Um, the main reason I do those that right for two different reasons. I mean one is that I can if their insurance is good. I can follow c4a's that work through the room mmp9 Without charging you without the patient I'm going to pay a whole bunch and get a little You know some data point to see how we're doing because this always takes a lot longer than patients They can yes, yes or that I wish that it would for them or even that I think it's going to sometimes And so, you know, you don't want to have to repeat one of those Microtoxin tests every few months and then like you said, well, we know That's measuring excretion. So say you get a patient you've diagnosed them and you're treating them by helping them excrete So that's like 10 Yeah, it's going to go up and then patients are going to be confused and I mean we can explain it We know what's going on But I don't even do it that for six months again unless they beg and I say well It's going to be higher if we're doing the right thing because you're excreting So just if you're listening you've got a higher test after doing the protocol and you're like, what's going on? I'm getting worse. No, you're measuring excretion So it's really critical here to understand that and then the markers you mentioned I just want to clarify if you're listening. So she said c4a c3 I love those are split complement products that show an active level of inflammation and c4a In particularly is usually good for recent acute exposure So those can definitely go up and down within weeks And then some of the other sears markers are tg f beta mmp9 msh adh nausea I still like to use if possible and then vip I think those are the main ones, but those can be I agree They're often covered and they can be super helpful to follow As the patient covers, but they take a long time Yeah, and and if they're not covered I usually don't bother unless the diagnosis is Ify, so if they get a negative mold test And you're they know they had a big mold exposure and you're really suspicious Then the c4a becomes real helpful and I mean, you know, and some of the others And then I'll have them do a search questionnaire So if the c4a is up and then this Serves questionnaire and there's a known mold exposure. I'll usually go ahead and treat And start with the real benign parts of treatment. I just really agree Kind of that because the great thing about mold detox. It's detox So we all are toxic and there's almost no harm. I mean people have asked with the mold detox box Can I use it if I have heavy metal toxicity or if I have just general environmental toxicity? And the truth is the basics of detox, which we'll talk about in a minute They cover detox and so usually you don't hurt someone by helping them detox better Even if they don't have mold So then what would you do say you have someone you have all the markers you think they have mold illness What would be kind of your basic protocol to get people? Well, I'd like to preface that just by saying that every patient is different They have a different genetic ability to detox Biotoxin mycotoxin And so, you know, there is a basic protocol and then you know, there's all the variations for all our VA unique patients But first of all, you always have to get them out of the moldy house You know, of course and that can sometimes be the very hardest part of the whole journey and then So I use the different strains that show up on the On the test result if I if I have a good mycotoxin from any of those labs And it's all I do binders this effect to the different strains and then I do I usually do the EI I do the nasal spray the intracranosal EDTA nasal spray a type of nasal spray from hop contents or one of the other pharmacies And then I don't add in biofilm stuff until the very end because I find some of them It'll tank them and they're not ready to open up biofilm yet. So And when I start the binders I have them start one at a time And find their dose so work their way up slowly For example, so if they see, you know, they have some trichococene that I want to start some activated charcoal I'll have them just start with like one capsule or even less and make sure that feels okay And then and then go up to four, you know, if if it feels good and the system feels better But as we've all seen some patients Um, you mobilize too much things begin to actually excrete but they move around and people get sicker Um, and so you always have to kind of be careful for that percentage of the population that has to go Really slow and take very small bits But um, so yes, I do binders for the different strains Um, don't really go through which I love to hear so you mentioned trichococene in charcoal I do the same and it's probably is there anything else you would do for the T2 toxins Yeah, so um for gliotoxin I use mostly bent my clay um, and then for opatoxin a I try cholesteroamine if especially if that's their biggest one, you know There's a lot of it and it's not just a little. Um, I try cholesteroamine I'll offer them both the drugstore variety with the nasty high Yeah Or the you know clean compounded stuff If they can't tolerate it and you know, not everybody can tolerate cholesteroamine Then I switch to opti fibrilline Um, or I'll do um ultra binder. So quick silvers ultra binder like two teaspoons of that Um, kind of heaping teaspoons kind of a big big dose Um, and um, and that'll usually do it for the opatoxin a and then um And then Sometimes once I've got them or like for example, if I have a patient who Doesn't have a positive mycotoxin test It has an elevated c4a and a history and all of that I might start them on something more like gid tox that has a little bit of everything or the ultra binder that has a little bit of everything. Um, but if I do have a good result, I try to target the finders I love that and I totally agree. It's been great to kind of start to get more and more data Um, and I know with ICI which we're both part of they're going to do some studies on specifically We just talked about the companies that do urinary mycotoxin testing and we're just giving our opinions That's all these are great labs. So any of the labs are good But what we're hoping to have if you stay tuned Is actual data on the like head-to-head comparison in the same patients and the same population So we can know which one is actually more accurate because at this point we don't You know, we just trust that the lab is good and they give us decent results to proceed But there may be one of those companies. It's a lot better than another Right, right And I use transfer factors Do you use the enviro transfer? Ask the enviro. I really like for the mold I think it works great. Um, and then So, uh, I use drainage remedies and all my mold patients. So can we live or lamp detoxification to help all your detox? You like cacana or under what kind of brandy? But you know, I have no necessary preference. They're all great. Any anything that's going to open up all your detox You know, we talk about I always check to my patients when they're this sick and they've got neuropathies and chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia and all these things That and a lot of times in the mold patients We sort of know there's some underlying line because they have the flu like And the migratory joint pain and the stuff that's like, you know, maybe some ear hunger and things Okay, this is a just mold but let's treat the mold first and see what happens um So I know I forgot what I was saying. Um, he said somebody's have a line, but let's do the mold first and then And the drainage is huge because like So, so I like the pecan. I bet, you know, there's a lot of different Um brands that do organ detox. Oh, what I was saying was that I always sort of say Between the line and the mold the bio toxin neuro toxin micro toxin Plus we live in a very toxic world like all those other toxic and the total toxic burden is like Falling over and on the floor at this point And you have to kind of get it up off the floor before you might even feel that much different And and so the binders are doing that and all that stuff is doing that and then part of it is Opening up the channels from the other side so that you can just begin pulling everything out So that's you know, that's our binders pulling it out in the stool and glutathione will help to Um, you know detox it so we can get it out in the urinary and the stool Um And and yeah, so the the drainage remedies are not so specific for mold But they kind of help with everything and just beginning to open up your detox channels Um I use glutathione. I use I've been using glucaronidation support a lot more lately not in the very beginning If they don't get where I want them to get to Um or as quickly as I think they should be moving or getting better than I added in So I'll just stop for a second and give a little tiny tutorial Our liver you've probably heard me say this before and of course dr. Fox knows this very well Phase one phase two you have a toxin that's converted into an intermediate and then that intermediate is converted by phase two Into something that's excretable But if we get stuck with that intermediate between phase one and phase two people feel way way worse And so something like glucaronidation, which is part of phase two Something like calcium deglucidate or support sulfurophane and those Those can actually help that phase too so that people don't get stuck in the in-between. That's actually more toxic than Getting it out of the body Fantastic, so we're I can't believe how faster time is going when I before we go I want to talk just a little bit about limbic activation trauma and mold and if you address that I feel like that's the next level that we're seeing for healing So for people listening what often happens is it's such it's a traumatic thing and it's a physiological trauma so even if you're emotionally stable and don't have an you know A depression anxiety or other disorder mold can be incredibly traumatic and it can cause kind of a PTSD to our systems Where we get another exposure and we get this and then it also affects the brain and the ability to self-regulate and the amygdala So, um, is there anything specific you found helpful for kind of down regulating that fight or flight response? How would you address that in your patient? Yeah, um, so I I find Most of my patients that are chronically ill and have been sick for a long time um, this is sort of critical to their you know healing path and and You know, it's starting to become Clear that maybe it needs to get added in or earlier than then I have been or a lot of us have been adding it in um, but You know, I find that there's I sort of the way I describe it to my patients is is there's a cellular memory Um, and there's a feedback loop. So if you've been sick for years When you go into a moldy environment and then you walk into a movie theater or hotel room your You know entire nervous system sends off these alarm bells And then even if you get right out and you're probably fine and barely had exposure at all Sometimes that feedback loop and that cellular memory is enough to like have the whole body think That it's under this much Uh stress again, and then it's gotten this big exposure And so you get all your symptoms back and a lot of that's triggered by your anxiety and your fear around Oh, no, I don't want to get sick again, which is the adrenal sort of limb back um Vagal, you know that whole thing and and there's that feedback loop that Eventually has to get addressed and the really And I feel like in the ones that are really chronic and have been doing this for a long time And so, um, I like dnrs Um, I recommend that a lot. Um, I recommend the gupcha program Um, I'm just learning about all the cool information on vagal Uh vagal retraining and um healing and um, I don't know that like I know there's some great books on it. Is there a program to refer a patient to for Them that's a great question because there's like vagal nerve stimulators There's like some they're not that I know if there's not like one program and often I'll use like a somatic based trauma therapist So some professional who walks them through EMDR or thought field therapy or brain spotting Those are all ways that but totally you're right. There's like no, I don't know that there's And if I find one I'll put a link here Yeah, so that was my that was my last um thing was I actually still recommend a lot of EMDR and um brain spotting And that's because Some people will do a lot better if they're handheld and they're walked through and I I just happen to know some incredible survivors in town That um that are so good at EMDR and that can help break those patterns Really well. So a lot of times I'll do that too We are so lucky because again like you and I do this all the time And there's two of us and there's more people in in our area Like in some places there's there's no one who knows how to treat mold So we're so lucky that we have you know each other here and many other colleagues again that do this And I love hearing you because there's like almost every step of the way We're so aligned with how we we approach it. It feels really familiar the same exact kind of thing We also have a ton of resources in Boulder, Colorado for somatic therapies like we have you name it It's probably here in some form and even I found like a cranial sacral therapy And some of these can also be really helpful because it's just there's always like these dnrs program amazing But you go you can make you do the program and sometimes the type A's who are already a little ocd from the mold It's one more thing to do and um It's great, but I love these like passively receptive things like biannual beats cranial sacral therapy And even just massage like human touch and some of these things that are a little bit more gentle receptive Because yeah nervous into Very cool any other um tips or tricks or things that you would like to leave The people listening with that they've been exposed to mold and they're struggling What would be your parting words of advice? Oh, have you been to expose to mold? Um Some of the things I would say is don't think that you're crazy It's less than less than a quarter of the population is sensitive to mold So you could very well be very sick from your house and nobody else in the house is sick And you know, you can go to ICI the organization that Jill and I are both members of and look for a practitioner in your area, but um, you know, don't Don't think you're crazy and have faith and you can get better and I actually personally think it's um Not at all the worst diagnosis in the world. I think it's fairly easy I mean the complicated protocol when you're going to get into it all But I think it's fairly easy to treat in the sense that people get better pretty quickly As long as they're not being currently exposed And um, yeah, and just just have faith that you'll find somebody that knows what they're doing with mold and people get better Love that because I agree. It feels like it's an overwhelming thing if you're listening and you're in the midst of it It might you were like, are you guys are crazy? This is so hard And we've both experienced it so we know how hard it is But we're on the other side and I'm I am not I can still tell when I get exposed, but it doesn't take me down I don't feel like it's been a permanent thing that has caused a handicap And that's exciting because I can tell you listening if you're experiencing it now that there's hope and same with dr. Fox So where can people listening find you find more about you? Where's your website? Where's your home? Yeah, so boulder holistic calm And then I have a I have an instagram and a facebook page. Do you want me to just send those to you? Yes, I will send links and yes, please if you aren't following both of us on instagram and all that We'll make sure and get you guys the links. I don't know about you dr. Fox So that's ends up being a lot of where I put the fun information the blogs and stuff So if you're not Out of using the social media a lot. I've had a lot of phases where I get in and then I stop Well, kind of a bane right like people are using it. It's a great way to get information out But I don't love being on there. So yeah, I agree with you Awesome, thank you for taking time out on your Tuesday afternoon to talk to us And I'll be sharing include those links and thank you everybody so much for joining us today And so thank you so much for the work that you do and how committed you are and for The support and the research and all the things that you do for all the other professionals in our community that are doing what we do Thank you so much. I appreciate it