 کومریٹ ساتھیو 134 ہوا یومِ مئی ہم ایک بہت بترین صورتحال میں منہا رہے ہیں یہ ایسی صورتحال ہے جس میں پوری انسانیت جو ہے وبا کا شکار ہیں کرونا کی وبا نے کروڈو انسانوں کو متاصر کیا اور اس کے نتیجے میں نا صرف نوع انسان جو ہے اس کی بقا خطرے میں پڑھ گئی ہے بلکہ پوری دنیا کی ایکوانمی بھی اس کے بنیات کے اوپر تبائی کا شکار ہیں اس کے نتیجے میں کروڈو لوگ بیروزگار ہو گئے ہیں اور کروڈو سے بھی زیادہ عربوں کی تعداد میں اس سے ایکنومیکلی متاصر ہوئے ہیں اس صورتحال میں پوری دنیا کا جو ہیلٹ کا سسٹم ہے وہ عوام کو لوگوں کو متاصر کرنے میں یا ان کی زندگیوں کو بچانے میں نا کام ہو گئے اسی طریقے سے جو ایکنومیک سسٹم ہے وہ بھی کلیپس ہو گئے ہے اس صورتحال میں خززن پاکستان میں ہم یہ دیکھتے ہیں کہ تقریبا ایک کروڈ بیسلاک انسانوں کے خززی طور پر مینت کشوں کے بیروزگار ہونے کا اگلے تینیہ چاہمر میں خطرہ پیدا ہو گئے اس وقت بھی کوئی 6 ملین کے قریب ورکرز جویں وہ بیروزگار ہو چکے ہیں غیاست جو ہے وہ صحت کی سہولیہ محیہ کرنے میں ناکام ہو گئے اور ٹیستنگ کی کیٹس کی جو ضرورت تھی وہ دینے میں ناکام ہو گئے ہے اسی طریقے سے جو ہیلٹ کے ورکرز ہیں جو اس قرونہ کی وباس کیسے لڑ رہے ہیں ان کو بھی پروٹکشن دینے میں ناکام ہو گئے فکٹیوں کارخانوں کے اندر حکومتی ایکامات کے مطابق کے باوجود ورکرز کو جوپ سے نکالا جا رہا ہے ان کی وجرطیں نہیں دی جا رہی اسٹیٹ بینک نے مالکان کو اندسٹرلیسٹ کو یہ سہولت فران کیا ہے کہ وہ تین پرسنٹ لون کے اوپر تین مہینے کی تنخائیں دے سکتے ہیں لیکن سرمایاداروں نے وہ لون بھی لینے سے انکار کر دی ہے اس سورت حال میں ایکی راستہ بشتا ہے کہ مینت کشتبکہ اس وبائی سورت حال کا نہ صرف خود مقابلہ کرے بلکہ سرمایاداری کہ جتنے ازحار اس کو خاتمے کے لیے جدو جائت کریں آج کے دن کے موقع پر ہمارا مطالبہ ہے کہ ساری دنیا میں ہیلٹ کی فیصلیٹیس کو فری کیا جائے اسی طریقے سے تمام ورکرز جو ان کی جوپ کو بینل اکوامی طور پر پروٹکشن کرنے کا طریقہ کر تائے کیا جائے اور لوگوں کو نوکریوں سے نکالنے کا اور ان کو جو ہے ان کی جو اجردتیں روکنے کا سلسلہ بن کیا جائے اس آج کے دن ہم پوری دنیا کے مینت کشوں سے مطالبہ کرتے ہیں جب جب انسانی تاریخ میں وباہ یا کوئی بھی اس طرح کا بہران آیا اس بہران سے نکلنے کے لیے ایک نئی تاریخ رکم ہوئی ہے اور ہم یہ سمجھتے ہیں کہ وباہ کے خاتمے کے ساتھی کبی انکانات پیدا ہو جائیں گے مزدور جدو جائے زندبات مزدوروں کا بینل اکوامی طاحت زندبات ایک بور دوسرے مرتفاوز ہیں ، ہمموکبردی قرآن کی، مرمومت کی ایک بور دوسرے مرتفاوز ہوتا ہے ، covid-19 کے لئے بہت ہے جو اگر پوردہ و باقی بوسید باقی۔ ان دی rank کوئی ملیدی باتتا落 کے ساتھ آپ کو بھی ہوئی ملیدی اگر آپ کو بھولا کے باتا someone اور نیمہ کے عملی کرسی کتی ہے اور ایسی ملیداتی کامنیز میں پاکہ جھکنے کی پیداٹی کی دیتا ہے بھولوی حال جنوی پیداٹی میں半 بلید منزلہی پیداٹی کے مرہن شکر کے حقید اور ایک ساتھ خودنے والے لیکن ایک ناذر جیرتہ ہے جو ناثر ماثوری اور وہ کباری رو گیاہل رہا ہے اس کی ح american becauseکڈ اسکرٹی promotion曾ہ報ہ nóض نڈٹلگ سکتھی ریانے کمشاہی اس کےان ανگجل دیگ 2021 کیا جو کیا خط wondering اپس اس آگرم در ساموسرِ Histocal some ان پuc ان مہار김 اپس چیز پر than نس آگر ہیں دفنیÍ come مان براہنگ بیشگی میں بر어서 فکستان والے گوبرورت ہے and the current status of the global production and supply chains of what we call our global economy because more than anything, COVID-19 illustrated the patterns of our global production and also how co-dependent the lives of our global society have become In countries such as Pakistan and Bangladesh یہ ہماری مقادرانیوں کی دورتی تک کتا ہے کونتہ سب کتا ہے سب بہت بہت کوپر سیس کے ساتھ دیکھتے ہیں اور ذکروں کے حیثوں پر ہے تک ہی خواہت ہے اور یہ خواہت ہے جو بہت بہت سوچیں جبار کا حصولت ہے میں پر سوچ یہ خواہت ہماری مقادران کیا اپنی ساتھ سکتا ہوں آپ کو حقیص بیلتی ہے جو یہ ساتھ سکتا ہے پر حصلہ سمجھنے کے والا میں سمجھنے کے بارے سے بارے سے کتا ہے ہوا کہ ان کو ایممیلیدرس بکوی سیرت کیا ہے تقام پاکفیموں کے ذریعہ حالت کا مرانا لکھا ہے یا جو ایمیلیدرس کے ذریعہ کیا ہے گوی سیرت کا مرانا لکھا ہے覆وجہی اور فرم پر حیانت کے بارے سے سمجھنے کے ساتھ ہوتی ہے اور ایمیلیدے کے بارے سے کتا ہے کے ساتھ داندی ہوسکتے ہیں، پہلے باتایا جانتے ہوئے ہے. مeeدی کے ساتھ مرحبہ دو دا سا ہے ، ہماری چیزا میں سوچ lackedہ کرنا رہا ہوں. کیونکہ تو پٹس جائیں کوئی مرحبہ باتایا کرتے ہیں. کیونکہ یہ اپنی جب ایم بارت کیا نسح دیتا ہے۔ اور وہ سب سے یہ بھی حبتات ڈارا مرحب چیزا میں سب سے بھی باتا ہے۔ خطاب ساری یہ آپ میں بہت مرحبی کی کیا چیزا ہے کہ liters نہیں ہے لیتا ہے۔ بحث دیگرا ہے بدی ایک اور ماحہ تجار جزش پر دوری پاریت ہیں کیونکہ اس کی حالات ہوتےмо پر کسی بیٹے گیا تھا کہ آپ سے ملینج پر بہت سے 6 ملین پر بہت سے بہت سے آئے اور کہ اٹنمیس کو نضورہ تُس پر بہت سے700 ملین کے کامیز ستیں نام انہوں کو اس موہ اینڈے میں اپتہ یہ کامید رہے ہیں۔ بہت ایک بہت ہی بہترین جیسے کی جوڈ پرکسٹان کی کامید رہے ہیں اور اچھانے میں ایک ایک بہترین کامید پہلے پاکستان سے کامید کرنے کے لائے گا. ایک بہترین جیسے میں بہت کی ہے ، ہمارے روح سکتا ہے کہ اور اپنے حالان کی طرف دائیت پر آئے ہیں اور سبکتے ہیں کہہیں جب بہت مخطرہوں کو جانتے ہیں اور سبکتے ہیں اور نیسور کرنے سے حیہ میں ہم اکنی کی نظر اپنیگے پہلی پر حفظ کی طرفong اپنیگے میں آپ کو مجھے شکل رہی ہوتا ہے۔ لہذا ہم بہت بیٹا جو حجم within بہت بیٹ کیتا رہا ہوتا ہے. ہمارے نومیوں کو جو جو ایم افیقت ہوں، کرونہ کے قرآن میں 2019 سے بھی نہیں ہوجاتے تھے گا۔ انہوں نے 2019 جلائی میں ایک ایم افیقت سے گوشتہ کی اپانیس نکرےے کیا ہے۔ سیکسانی پر کتالتی کی پاس جگہ کیا ہے۔ تو جب اپاک کیسا ہے کہ وہ خوبطہیں ہیں۔ جو ہمارے نومیوں کے ساتھ ایم and کارنئین کے جورت کے لئے ہے کہ اپانیس طرح کو گھونے کے بارانے کی محن جہاںTwo سب سے سورتی کرای مالی سے س wrench سیٹل کو پہلے ہوتا ہے۔ نمیز پہلے کی بوٹا ہے۔ اس طرف سیس طور پر پہلے کو پہلے ہوئی یہ ہے۔ ہوتا ہوتا ہے کہ اسی وقیت کو لیتے ہیں۔ مقفزہ تک سیٹلوں میں کیا سیٹل و مقفزہ طور پہلے ہوتا ہے۔ اس کی نامیوں کے ساتھ بلانے کوuch سیٹل کو جانے کے لائی سے کرنا سکتا ہے۔ اس پر پر جانے کے لائی سے سیٹلوں کو سیٹلوں کو سیٹلوں کے لائی سے کار تھا۔ اور کے لئے جو اور ہمہارا جو ہے۔ ا另外 one was that Pakistani currency was slash the value of currency was appreciated for a more than 30 to 35 % so it means that actual wages of the worker will decrease around the fifty% and then there's a withdrawal of a state subsidy on all the odd things اپنے ج濈تے کی بی Let Jupiter ب۔ ... tout ابئر segment morning ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ایسی کو پر خیصیاتوں میں اس کے محضہ میں مجھے جانوی處نی میں گا گوٹر باتی رہے ہیں. اور اگر جہب ہے کہ وہ ایک بہت بہت ہے ، اور وہ اسی ضروری نہیں ہمیں۔ جو بہت بہت بہت ہی کمین ہے ، پر شہر میں ، ایسی چیز کو پہلے ہے ، باکیسانی سیرن کے لئے قرآن ہے۔ ایسا اور اس کے لئے آج میں ایسا سے 40 دگڑی شہر ہوں ، وہ اس طرح نقصات نہیں کرتے ہیں اور پھر وہ سونج میں کوئی مدیقی نقصات کو پہلے ہوتا ہے ہم انگرین جانتے ہیں کانیسی لوگوں کو پہلے جانتے ہیں کے لئے وہ بھی سکل جانتے ہیں لہذا آپ اپنے پالا بیٹش اور امیرکنس یا ایرانیانیں ساتھ لیتے ہیں آپ کو اس کے بارے میں دا ساتھ آپ کی جو ویٹنام اور آنکلنٹی کے بارے میں دا ساتھ لیتے ہیں تو بیٹش جاتا ہوں اور اس سے پیدا ہوں اور وہ جو بہت کرنا کردے ہیں اب زیادہ پیدا کی بہتر پڑھنا ہ怎么样 ہے اور سبسی will ہوں اور بہتصلویوں جو پیدا کو پہلے ہو جاتا ہوں اور مدھر ساتھ لیتا ہوں اور ایسا آپ اس کو بہتر người کی وصف دانی کار کرتے ہیں دیتے ہیں اور ایسا رہا ہے ، ایسا ہم کیسا ہما پرAFی دے限ہ تھا ، بہت یک سب ہی ہے۔ اس لگ 아무 ایسی بارانے لگی ہے، اس کے حالتہ جمیہ ہوتی ہے۔ جس میں مطابقہ لگی کا بہت سکتا ہے کہ جس میں مجھے چلی فرمم表示 ہی دخل کرنے کے لگی کیا ہے۔ ہمارا ہوئے اور کہوہاں ایک کم بہت سکتا ہے. اس سب کے بارانے میں سے 70% ایک سے کے بارا جاتی ہے۔ ٹکسٹائلون کامیحد ہے، 27 بلای半 بلایوں زیادہ ہمارے کنی سن جو لوگ پر بود ہے مانر میں مصدرہ کیا ہے؟ میں بات نہیں ہے، ، سب کانسلرت کو بہت ساد ہے برائنوں کو بھی你要ہات سکتے ہیں اور ہمارے بیٹھاننا ہوتے ہیں ہم جو اپنی شخصیہ کے بارے ہیں اور اپنے ایمی اپنی شخصیہ اور ایمیی درنیشلی درنٹس کو کلیپسیٹی ہے انکای کے بارے کیا ہے جو ہم کلیپسیٹ مرشد کیا ہے precautionshave to show that the companies they are talking about social responsibility and want to show that they have the human face. but in the ground the factories where they get their productions they are ret etiquering workers just in one factory 15,000 workers have been literature within the period of the Obstrienannet loco these kinds of happening every day. Somewhere we get to know about it in majority of factories we don't know about it because workers don't know about their rights at the moment, so that is a big and huge problem over here in Pakistan especially in a textile and garment I am just talking about the problem inside the factories where somehow the workers are visible their employers are visible. ان کامیون ایلو کے بات کی ہے اور ایلو جو کامیونیوں کے بات پر ایک کمات ہے بہت ایک انیسف اور وہا ایک کامیونیوں کے بات کیا پر ایک کامیون کے بات سیکٹر کیا کیا ہے یہ ایک جو بہت ہی ہے اور ہم ہنیئے اسے بہت بہت ملے بننے کے لئے آپ کو اگر آئے گا آپ کو دیتا ہوں کہ how could we prove it with it and how could we catching the need of the workers آپ کو بڑی ختمت schnellتے ہیں���um کی نقصان کے بہت اتناموزوں کے بہت اتنے کا some بڑی کا لاستردہ دوجانے کے معاہد کیا بیٹھار دھیلہی ب سے کی بڑی صار گرنے میں آرائے ہوں اور باغلادش کے بچاتا ہے جس دا سموس کے باتیوں کے دا سموس کے بچانے کے لئے بچانے کے لئے بچانے کے دوچانے کے دوری اندروٹیز کی صحیح کے بچاتے بچانے کے بچانے کے بچانے کے بچانے کے بچانے کے بچانے کے بچانے کے لئے اپنے حیثوں میں اُن بیٹ کیا ہے۔ ایک بیٹ پر سے مولیت ہے اور سب سے مولیت نہیں کرنا چاہتا ہے کہ ان کے اندرس میں بیٹ پر اندرس میں بھرکلی ہے سب میں یہ کسی بیٹ پر پر بیٹ کی خیالت گئی ہے۔ اگر آپ اپنی بیٹ بیٹ پر پر کانتا ہے تو آپ کو اپنی بیٹ بیٹ پر بیٹ کی میکنے میں جانتا ہے ، اور اس نے پیمی دوننا یہاں ہے جو آپ کو یہ جو سیٹی کی روز دلی میں باتا ہونے کا کہتا ہے کہ آپ نے ایک بارے کے بارے کو سبلای جو تیارہمین کھاک ایک بارے کے بارے میں بھی کلنٹ سیٹارہ گا جو کو لنکی ہے جو جب تو ہوتی ہے تو کبھی جب سیٹر میں بنا Credo سیٹر کے جو預لاف کی لینا بہت کے بارے کے بارے سے بھی اس سے موزش کرنا کرنا جائے outta bedroom like global supply we are the supply chain is the way Tha employers or industrial rent will be the cost on paying the less to the workers and getting the more and more benefit so they use all the platform dediales،꾹 就有 all the platform which they can go through. so the most of the women are engaged with this sector so you can say that the اینجاہی Particularly شفت告訴 بہت چیشی پر پر تک راستیata جو حیہ مجھے سامیہ حالa آرکار کیا ہے پہلی حمد yoگ بrigیزی ایک ہی پیزہ کھون گا جو ایک فیید شمس ایک آپ اور شام پر بگیلی زیادہ مجھے میکران بھی مستیب ہے بہت چھوٹ ہے ایک بھی بہت چیزے بھی بھی بہت چیزے بھی بہت چیزے بھی بھی بہت چیزے بھی بہت چیزے جو ایک سیٹر پاکستانی ایک نامی can say this mainly dominated by the informal sector. You can say that 70 to 75% are the informal workers. Total of our workforce like we have the workforce of 65 million. So majority like 70% are the informal workers. They are doing different kind of work and not only in textile but also the other sectors as well. So most women in Pakistan are part of the informal economy or low wage labour market because they are getting the less payment and even they are not access to the social security and I think they don't have any protection during Corona it's multiplied. The miseries is multiplied. So that's how the informal supply chain works here like the brand work. The brand is located in one country and they are producing or taking. I see that there's something wrong with your connections. You seem to be falling out for a while. Mobile call sometimes so it's interrupt. Do you want to say something Nasi? She is in another room. Well maybe she can. Wait let's see if it's not reacting now we can maybe just go to the next question and then see how it will. Nasi will get back and will be able to join us. So yeah Sarah was actually also kind in the middle of talking about it. The textile and parallel industry in Pakistan is its second largest employer after agriculture. A study by the Human Rights Watch estimated at almost 30% of the manufacturing labour force is working in the garment industry. Yet garment workers have struggled more than anyone in unionizing and connecting with each other. And Nasi you work as deputy general secretary for the National Trade Union Federation Pakistan. So connecting these people and making sure their voices are heard is something that you've been fighting for a long time already. Could you maybe explain why it is that these garment workers experience such difficulties in unionizing and what the obstacles are that they have to overcome in doing so and how your work is also helping them. First I want to clear it when we talked about textile and garment then is the 38% but if we talked about cotton related factory cotton from whole supply chain from cotton field to the factory. So it's more than 60% total work including cotton fields the workers work over there and we are going to also organize them in a supply chain because if the workers in a cotton field they are not producing cotton without its slavery without a bounded labor. So how could the cloth be clean. So that's why we are raising that question that supply chain should be more deepened to the not just the factories but also to the cotton fields. So that is the one thing. So you talked about unionization in textile and garment I think that less than 1% workers are organizing textile and garment. So it's a very unfortunate and is a very pessimistic numbers. It's because in majority of factories especially in textile and garments workers don't have a written contacts. So if you want to register a worker it will be the requirement of the registration that anybody can show that he or she is implied with that factory. If the workers don't have the appointment that they can't register themselves as a union with the factory labor department. So that is the one problem. The other big problem is that workers are not only a 5% workers are registered with the social security and pension schemes. And there is also a problem that employer just pay the fee of a contribution of a worker but what the card they get from the social security institute it was not given to the workers. The company keep it with them and just give the institute social security institute get the money and they don't care about that that card should go to the workers. So that is another problem. So I think that in that context we have taken a new initiative. We have tried to ask the government and legislate try to make a legislate and with the government that there should be a sectoral unions just like in a Europe. In Pakistan there is a new sectoral union. Every factory have a union and that union only have a negotiation other collective bargaining for that factory not for whole sector. So if we have a union for whole sector it will resolve the problem but it need a legislation on it and we started to work on it. But now the condition is that because even before the after the agreement with the IMF there was a lot of resentment in the workers and workers were very much angry on it. But now before the corona there was a problem that we always motivate the people motivate the workers mobilize the workers to come for their rights on the demonstration or activities. But this is a new phenomena in Pakistan and this new phenomena is that workers are constantly themselves they are coming out of the factories first they protest inside the factory then they get out of the factory. They go to the press clubs and open on the they block the roads that is a new phenomena. In 1969 when all over the world there was a left movement and students movement was there in 1960 the same was in Pakistan the workers and the students they come out in huge numbers against the state and now again is the new phenomena that the workers are coming out everywhere. If they don't have union no problem they are very much now as angry violent and a militant but they are not unified actions they are a separate action but the same kind of action because the labour department is not doing for them anything the local system to resolve the mechanism don't resolve their issues that's why they are going to the street and they want street justice. So number of factories in number of factories worker get their rights they after they have corridor of the factories they are picking out of the factory so they force the employer to accept their demands. So that is a new phenomena and I think that it will be a culminated and a new kind of labour movement is more than a trade union movement is it would be a informal way of a trade union because formal way of a trade union is failed because in a tripartite mechanism whatever they have agreed to do it they don't accept it. The employer sit with us they agree with us just like they agree with us that during the lockdown all worker will get their salaries or no worker will be retrenched. We force the government to give them some kind of incentive to a state bank of Pakistan given a 3% on interest 3% interest loan for 5 to 6 years at the time when there was interest trade for the 13% the government is giving to the employer on a 3%. So but they get the money they got all the benefits but they don't want to get to the worker whatever they have discussed and agree in a tripartite mechanism. So that is a frustration and people are taking a new way to cope with the situation and we are as a trade union we are going with them we involved with them to channelize their activities everywhere. So first time is that in the last 3 months the national trade union tradition become a focal and a pivotal point for the workers wherever they are fighting we are with them. That is a new era for us in the labour movement in Pakistan. Yes because I also read that of course the Corona lockdown confronted us all with challenges such as a question of how these demonstrations or how protest can take place now with social distancing for instance. And last month NTUF did organize a demonstration that one was met with oppression and with violence by the police. Yeah I'll let you. It was not organized by us but our comrades who work in that factory they were in it. So it was a spontaneous reaction of the workers. It was a denim clothing which is producing for H&M, Indie techs and H&M and Azara. So in that factory they have retained 15,000 workers from their 8 units. And the remaining they don't want to give them a bonus which is due on an Eid festival. So there was a frustration in the workers and workers get out of the factory and they organize a peaceful demonstration then there was a firing on the workers. And the workers were after Eid they have fired a one case with the police and they have arrested the workers that was the case. But it has flare up the problem. So when there was a firing and then when there was workers were arrested so the employer was also become fearful. They think that there was a retaliation. So there was indirectly in a background there was a pressure from the government and also pressure from the other employers that that was a not good thing and anything can be happened. That's why number of factories after that firing workers were paid their salaries and also their bonuses. And they were very much fearful that there might be a retaliation from the workers. So we have also going to file a complaint with our international partners with the H&M that in their factories they are getting work in a very celebrity in a just like a worker's work in a just like a slave in the factories. Yes. It's sad to see that Sarah has left us again but I'm pretty sure that she's trying now to get in again. But let's just move on and see when she's back then we can continue our talk with her as well. But I'm also wondering because as you say there of course you already mentioned it right in the beginning of these big apparel brands cancelling orders violating labor regulations and laws. And I think I can say that there is this intuitive logic that big companies have an obligation to ensure that the workers rights in their supply chains are protected. And that's also what several organizations and campaigns and trade unions are fighting for are pleading for. And that companies should show solidarity and responsibility with their workers but perhaps solidarity alone is not enough. And what we need is political action by international trade unions but also by regulations supported by the EU governments. And what are your thoughts and hopes when it comes to reorganizing the industry. One thing is that you see Pakistan signed a number of global framework agreements Pakistan have a GST plus mechanism with the European Union Pakistan have signed and ratified 38 ILO conventions. So number of conventions are there but still there is no practical purposes all of it. So it need that on a paper things are very good. And when they are in a negotiation table internationally and locally employers and number of these big organizations they are very polite and prove workers are a human rights. But in a practice they don't have any mechanism for it. Just like industrial global union have a global framework agreements with the different brands but there is no mechanism about it. How would we go for a complaint system. The same is with the GST plus Pakistan get a GST plus status with the European Union. And there is a zero duty on a Pakistani program going to Europe. But there is a no mechanism for it. There are 29 points including our labor rights in it. But everywhere there is a violation and nobody is care about it and workers don't have any mechanism to how to make a complaint and there is a no monitoring system. So that's why we think that they need a new kind of wash dog with a very active people and not only workers but people's participation. Conscious people's participation. The workers from different political spectrum social democrats, greens, left, ultra left communists all come together. Because the problem is in the south is that we are not that strong. We are not that strong to raise our voices. It needs a political dimension of a thing. And that dimension in Europe we need some kind of a voices who can raise our voices over there. So we think that problem is a global one is a trans border problem. Because the whole capital is moving from come from north to south and some to north and then again north. So if the problem and the money and the capital is from all the global and the problem is a global one. So we have to look into a globally. Otherwise we never resolve the issue. Number of times number of examples we have when we act unitedly from north and south. We get a result just like a early enterprise factory file. There was a problem in Pakistan. Two thousand two hundred sixty worker died and we raise our voices when in a Germany. Human rights trade unions and people's and workers right organization collaborate with us cooperate with us. We put a dent and we put a pressure on a cake and we get number of compensation from them. It's still way short of our expectation. But it was the beginning that in a history of ILO. We are first time get a compensation through ILO convention on a compensation. So in that context we can say that international solidarity in era of a Corona and after Corona. It will pray a very very significant true. Just like in America you see that people are coming out when I'm like why was died because of something. The police has brutality. We are using these symbols in Pakistan also that the same kind of we are not taking. We are not giving us a chance to be people's use that slogan. So it means that things are becoming a global one and the oppression is the same with different degrees. So in that concept we think that we should look into a very seriously about it. Otherwise in the south we can't survive in that way. If we don't have our voices and our friends in the north. Yeah. Thank you. I also quickly saw that Sarah was also able to join again. So perhaps if I don't know she's able to. Yes I can hear you. Yes and is your camera working as well or. No I don't think so it's only. Yeah okay that will just try it like this it's fine. Maybe it's a question actually that we got from the people watching us. It also connects to what you said Nasir of the fact that we need this global and this political action. But there is a question from a viewer who asked what he or she can do as a consumer. Should I as a consumer buy a t-shirt from H&M or shouldn't I do that. I don't know if you can answer to this Sarah or view Nasir that's up to you of course. I think that it's not answer. If you don't buy a thing it means that somewhere someone lost their job. Yeah but you can see that you can say that you can you have a voice that you can say that this cloth which is your buying. It should be produced in an environment where the safety of the workers is a fast and workers get some kind of a decent reach that you can say that and that can happen. And we can do it. So it's not a quality is not not buying is not a it is all the issue. I think that from workers perspective. We think that we should ask them if they respect ILO conventions. They respect Pakistan law in theory. They should respect them in a practice and it's not impossible for them because. Because if they give up for one t-shirt they will double the price double the wage of the worker. It will be a point five point fifty cent. Yeah so it no problem for the consumer even no problem for their profit. So why the worker sell these bridges are so low so we can say that just like H&M say that in 2019. The H&M will give a decent wages to living wage to all the workers in their supply chain. He has committed but the H&M didn't do that one. So I think that it is a possible that a worker will get Social Security workers will get a pension worker will get a living wage. And even the profit of the supplier and profit of the brand will not affect. So yeah I think that our consumer can play a very important role in it. They have questions. Yes I also agree with the comment Nasir that our people need job first thing. So we can use the consumer as a pressure group to pressurize the brand and even EU government and other government that from where they are getting their merchandise. They should follow the rules and laws and regulations. So that will be made for us. Yes yeah very clear thank you. Maybe Sarah now that you're back because you were talking actually about the women in the informal industry and their share in the garment and textile production. Could you maybe continue where where you left the discussion about their share and their importance of in the whole industry. Yes. I think where I left it. I think I have to start in another way like government industry is rapidly shifting from formal to informal work including homes. So where local and international both workers are work is going on. So the women in Pakistan are traditionally basically a skilled one. They specialize in swing and embroidery and they still pass down from one generation to another. And now their work is going in textile especially in stitching departments. This also means that the share of the women in government or the value added product or the work is increasing. Similarly if the work is being transferred at the home. They are being provided work at home by the third party contact system or the contactors or the middle man. So which is of very low value such as like dropping a button buttoning on the shirt or embroidery work or the work of the bed sheet holding the bed sheet sides of the bed sheet. It is not visible yet but you can see that the home base workers are coming in the supply chain. They are linked with some brand looking your international but it's not visible because we don't have any data or any research on it any search on it. So there is a lot of work we have to do on this work to collect the data. Like I give one example that our members are engaged with WWF work. It's a brand WWF and they are stitching school bags for the children in Africa. When one reporter came to us and she did interview with the home base workers and she printed the article in the newspaper which is published in one of the African countries. So the members getting phone from their employers from middle man or from their contractor that you have lied about us and we are not giving you work. So that's how we find that supply chain that our members are engaged with WWF in Africa. So in the same way and in second way you can say that the owner is working through contractor who are linked with the workers outside the factory. So there is one proof that so there is no proof that their work is done outside the factory. The heat of profit drive employers to a place where they have more advantage or the benefits. That is why in garment where there is a value added work and sitting work you can say there are women they hire lot of women. Simply they are now seeing that the profit is working from the home so they shipped the work from factory to home. Like we have an example of the sport goods like football many football teachers are working at home in small switching units in Sial port. And garment industry is fully you can say that the women are engaged as a contract workers in factories as well. And even in home so they are not getting paid better or you can say that it is up to the minimum wage of the which we the province have. So this is the issue which they are facing and the workers especially the women workers are facing in the school supply chain. Sorry it was my mistake. I'm sorry. Now you can hear me. Everything is fine. Yeah okay great. I have to quickly go back and also to maybe reflect a bit on your work as I also asked about Nasser out he is resisting or helping these voices of this garment workers. I heard a couple of years ago the home based women workers Federation managed to get a local policy addressing the rights of the home workers legalized by the state which was a huge thing because it was the first time that the rights of the home workers had been legally addressed. But reading on the labor violations that are still happening today. Yeah I made me somehow realize that the Pakistan government who should be accountable for these labor violations much to happen are failing to do so. And knowing that almost 70% of the country's export comes from the garment industry. One would expect the government to take care of it but they are and it seems it seems they're handing over the industry to the first of this big profit brands in the global north. How does this happen? Has it always been like this or is it a trend that has been reinforced by neoliberal stinking of the last decades? Yes and neoliberal policies the privatization is the main way that government is applying to curtail the rights of the trade union basically. So the informal workers work is also increased and what we did that we organized these home based workers because the majority are the women in the home based sector. So that's why we went to these women and organized them and asked them to come and sit in at one place and then we started study circle and training with these home based workers. And we make them aware that if they will not come out from their home or they will not organize themselves in a union or in a group or pressure group the state will not give envy. So they understand the old women understand this. So we came out from home to vote. So that's how we are able to get some relief from the government. Like you said that it's the first time in the history of Pakistan that one province has rectified or you can say the recognize the home based workers as a labor. So now in sin province all the home based workers either they are women or men they all are considered now as a worker and they will get the benefit which is written in the labor law or in the labor law. So that's how we are working here in Pakistan and we are still hopeful that like we have many things on the pipeline but because of the Corona virus it's stopped many things like our council has still we didn't the government has didn't announce the council which has the main role that they will collect the data of home based workers in one province that how many home based workers are exist in sin and which sector. So we can clearly say because we don't have the data. So we can't say anything what we have seen is just estimation about the workers formal workers or about the informal worker that is just estimation because we don't have the data. So that's why we are asking for the data to government for the formal workers as well and for the informal workers as well. So but the the thing is that like like you said that the labor department is also working with employers. So it's very difficult to work and to understand all the mechanism. The thing which we did here is that we due to our activism we become the part of the try part mechanism. So first time the informal workers become the part of all the try part mechanism which we hide and see. Like we are sitting in the labor standing committee and its work is that you have we have that right that we can formulate a new law or amend the law. Even we are sitting in the minimum wage board like I am the member of now I am the member of the minimum wage board as well. So we have we have also working on the minimum wage for these workers as well. Yes. I want to share things that I think you can if you wanted to say something now say. Yeah. I said that there's one side of it is a two union side a labor side of that economic side of the whole dimension of this supply chain. That one is a political dimension of it. And because of a Corona now our demands which were blurred before the Corona now become a more visible and more acceptable to the ordinary people in the public. Just like when the state say that Pakistan is a security state and the Pakistani state have their borders are not safe. And there are the enemy of the Pakistan so that we need a huge budget for the defense. And when we say that we need education health and to make a much more money on it and the Corona was there. So at that time the doctors and the health system was going to work the whole health system was collapsed. So we demanded from the government that in a new budget they would be equal amount for our health and education as equal to the defense budget. Before that we were saying for the cancellation of international all the debts. Nobody care about us. But now the government of Pakistan itself along with the Ethiopia and many other countries they are also demanding that one. And today their loan were deferred for one month one year. But we say that for the cancellation of the loan that is another one thing. The most important thing was that from the workers perspective we were saying that there would be there should be there must be a universalization. A health and social security system. And now the government is looking into it and how could they will do it. So that is the way and for all these destination whatever we are thinking about a Corona as a political statement. We demonstration everything and then we have written a pamphlet. And it was when 70,000 was also to give to the different people. So we have make our commitment with the political perspective to the people that we are not just for a leave work. We have given a leave to the 555,000 families immediately after the Corona spread and then from our own into a platform. And with the other philanthropist organization we give to 50,000 families a one month ration to them. And also contributes some money with the Pakistan's medical prime medical association doctors and the paramedical association. We work with them around 150,000 punct rate we distributed. We have pasted banners and number of things in a different industrial zones. Whenever there is a problem with the worker worker will come to us and we resolve their problem with the labor department and we will go to the court. We have also find a constitutional petition in a higher court about the right of workers, right of livelihood and right of their wages. So in that context we are working on a different dimensions. Another dimension is this one. We are talking with you as an international issue. We are making it within that it will not be resolved if we don't have international dimension of that one. And that dimension is a very vital and very important and a very decision because the crisis is a global one. Yes, yes. I also hear that you do yourself because there is that feedback. So if nothing or it could maybe I am now it's over. Okay, that's perfect. Thank you. So I've got a question and it connects again to the first one actually sort of question of whether or not as a consumer we should buy clothes whether or not from H&M or no. But here it's a question from somebody asking if there are any labels that we can use to recognize fair working conditions. Are there brands that work globally that can serve as an example and things we can go to as an alternative. Maybe if some of you want to answer to this. Sorry, I don't understand. I'll ask it again. I'll ask it once more. So it's a question by somebody from the audience asking if there are labels that we can use that we can depend on and that show us that the working conditions have been respected. That these working conditions in which these t-shirts or these garments have been produced are just were human. And he's also wondering if there are brands that work globally that can serve as an example. Brands we should look for when going shopping and things that we know that are better, cleaner, more sustainable than other ones. I can't mention a single brand who are getting their merchandise from south. They are not. They are very much in a work to respect our label standards. So it needs a long way to do it because they are used to cheat the consumers. It's not a fault of the consumers but they show to them that they have the global framework agreement. They have a social responsibility on a Facebook or on their website. They say that they respect all these things. And the problem is that with the consumer and the produce the workers in a supply chain. They don't have a link with each other. That's why the brands and the suppliers are cheating the workers and the brands are cheating the consumers. So we need a very strong connection with the consumers and the workers in a supply chain. That will expose the wrong doing of the suppliers and the brands. So I think that for the decades they are doing in the same practice. They are just like social auditing. They get audit from some reviewed organization and show the people that all things are very good over here. So these social auditing are the private one and they are getting a money from the buyers and suppliers. So they give whatever they want to get it. So we think we have to understand their tools to cheat consumers. So we can avail the consumer about it. And we can resolve that issue if the consumer have a consciousness about it. And they know the practice of the brands how to hide their ugly faces. So we can purchase the things but we ask them the questions. And we really don't choose like that. Yes. Maybe a very question to both of you actually to wrap this conversation up. As this conversation has showed and as you've been saying like several of these labor violations that are happening now had already been happening long before the outbreak of COVID-19. I'm for instance talking about the fact that a lot of the garment workers don't have a contract with the factories they're working for which makes them of course very vulnerable because they like any sort of social protection but also like the lack of safety measures, the protection, the health measures. Optimists might say that these crisis that had been going on already for a long time are now laid bare somehow because of COVID-19. Besides you also see people gathering and unionizing. So these can be signs that change is already or somehow very slowly on its way. And that connects to this common held idea that out of times of crisis actual change can grow. And without minimizing the devastating effects of the situation of all these people that are working in the garment industry today. I am wondering what you think the outcome of this crisis will be. And if you think that COVID-19 will be able to somehow demand a reorganization of the garment industry and also enforce this responsibility of those people that should take responsibility like the big brands. And are you somehow optimistic that this can happen due to the outbreak? ذیرہ would you talk. ذیرہ would you answer. I think that Seher is responding to us that she has a very bad technology and it's not working. So it would be good. Would you hear me. Would you hear me. Okay. So I think that what is happening at the moment how the workers and the people are reacting about the fear of states. Especially I talked with the Pakistan perspective. The Pakistani state failed to protect workers on every occasion. So this government comes with a very much fun fear but every day there is a crisis. So in a corona crisis now the workers are on the road. They are protesting and they are raising the issues for which we have been asking them for the two, four or five decades we are asking the workers about it. Now workers themselves they are saying that things. And they are more radical than us. They are much more open. They are much more in a you can say that in a demonstrations and a protests. So I think that the same situation in India the same situation in Bangladesh and other countries. So I think that a new material conditions are emerging. At the time we are facing all the crisis and there is unemployment. Livelihood has gone but at the same time the workers are now much more and the people are much more inclined to listen a political solution of the things. So I think that after a corona during the coronavirus and after the coronavirus. The movement will take a new lives and it is the launching pad for a new era for us. And especially I think that in Pakistan we have new ways and I don't say that is a opportunity. But it is a material condition which is open and now bourgeois parties the mainstream parties they are least bothered about workers and the people's issue. That's why people are looking for a new alternate a political dimension and a political organization. Other than the existing political parties who don't care about the workers and the people. So the same I think that the international issue is there. So I think that in a corona we have some material conditions and a prerequisite. So have a new kind of a change which is a social one and it will drastically change. The way of life and also the states people and behavior people are thinking towards the states. And they come to know that these are the state which are easily will fail to resolve the people's issue at the time of virus. Like we can work in a three level like NASA said in Pakistan we have the new venues on which we can gather or organize the workers to demand for their just right. So we have we need a global alliance as well. First thing is that and we need also a global laws. Like we have raised and you have raised the issue of Balya factory fire. So you is now preparing a new law that if the brand is going anywhere in the world they should be follow the rule of what is pass in the EU or European Union or any other country. So we want we have to ask now the global laws as well and we need the global campaign as well. Like all the employers have the one plan from like IMF World Bank Britain Organization and other organization and they are they are thinking on how they will get the benefit from all these kind of things. So I think the workers should also need some kind of that kind of a platform. If we raise the voice from here then you can also or the workers from other country can also raise the voice. So it's I think we have to have we have we need a joint struggle on one issue or two issue. Like we are taking one issue as a contractor that we don't need any contract system anymore. So one action should be taking at global level. So I think these kind of strategy if we can go for it also then maybe we can achieve a lot of things. Thank you very much. I'm watching at my time and I'm afraid we've come to the end of this live stream. I want to thank you. I want to thank my two beautiful guests Nasser Mansoor Ziraqan for being here with me tonight for teaching us on the problematic situation of the garment production in Pakistan today. But also and mainly for your inspirational thoughts and ideas on how to make the current system more sustainable and more just for the future. Then the only stage you in 25th at 6 p.m. And connecting to the tragic murder of John Floyd and the growing worldwide resistance against it. We will look deeper into racial justice and violence afflicted by state police and border control agents along the European borders. So thank you all once more Nasser Ziraq for being here with me tonight and I hope to see you all again within two weeks. Thank you.