 Good day, my IKAR friend. Today we are very happy to have an interview with the digital minister, Ong Jui Tan, and together with me is Terry Cao. Terry Cao is the global marketing officer of SEMI. He also played role as the president of SEMI Taiwan. SEMI is the leading association for SEMI-conductor industry globally. So we are very happy to have Audrey with us today. So the question will start from Terry. Okay, thank you Audrey. First of all, would you like to introduce a little bit to the ICCN member about yourself and also maybe talk a little bit about your role to play in government or in the non-popular organization. We know you have very active in several non-popular organizations. Sure, good local time everyone and Audrey Tao is the digital minister in charge of open government, social innovation, and youth engagement. Before joining the cabinet I worked with Apple's Siri team for six years on computational linguistics and also participated in many free software and open source communities. Nowadays I mostly work with Taiwan's DG Plus plan or the digital innovation, governance and inclusion plan of which we can talk about more in the next few questions. Earlier you just mentioned how you charge up the DG Plus project for Taiwan. I think in region COVID-19 I think Taiwan very successfully to control the COVID situation of the pandemic. So would you like to share some of the experience of how the Taiwan government control the pandemic and how by the technology the Taiwan government can also help to control the situation? Certainly, yeah. As of today it's been more than 200 days in Taiwan with no local transmission cases. So we're by and large post COVID now. And the reason why is that we reacted really, really early on whereas many jurisdictions reacted this year. We reacted last year. Last December when Dr. Lee Wen-Liao, the whistleblower from Wuhan, posted their social media that there was an, quote, seven new source cases in the Huanan City market, unquote, whereas his voice gets silenced a little bit by his institutions in Taiwan. It's been reposted by young doctor PTC, which is Taiwan's Equivalent Reddits. And not only did it get upvoted so that the medical officers immediately took notice of it, but we immediately start health inspections for all the passengers flying in from Wuhan the very next day, the first day of 2020. So the idea of collective intelligence based on the absolute freedom of speech, of assembly, of the press and so on is really important because it's like a radar system. But notice the existing SARS 1.0 back in 2003 and notice that this time SARS 2.0 is rather like SARS 1.0. So we activated the yearly drills and so on something that we've been always preparing every year since SARS 1.0. And so I think the most important technology is definitely soap, which is chemical technology followed closely by medical mask, which is a physical vaccine. But the digital technology, although it ranks the third, it's important to make sure that people understand that if three-quarter of the population wear a mask and wash their hands, then the R-value of the virus will be under one, meaning that it will not spread in the community. So from early February to early March, we worked for 30 days making sure that in a masquerading system, everybody gets access more than three-quarter of people know how to use it with the help of 6,000 pharmacists, 12,000 convenience stores and countless civic technologies that wrote the apps to make sure that masquerading works smoothly. We did achieve the three-quarter KPI by March and then 90% by April, at which time the virus seeks to make an impact on itself. My advantage is I think the government really trusts the people and also with the support of the technology, which is also driven by lots of the civil organizations, so the app, which is very helpful for myself, so I can check from the app about what's in the community. Did you use the line chatbot or the app or the voice assistance? There's more than 100, so I was wondering which one you actually use. Eric, I think you saw it. I think the technology really also plays a very important role to help the government. Yeah, definitely. And I also want to highlight that because we publish the real-time mass availability in each farms every 30 seconds. It's not just open data, it's an open API, which enables not only people queuing in line to keep each other honest, right? Because if I queue before you, and I swipe my National Health Insurance card, you can check your phone that I actually bought nine or 10 medical masks per two weeks. That's our ratio. And it also enables independent data analysis like the OpenStreetMap community that analyzed the distribution and found out actually it's not very fair. At the beginning, it's fair if you look at the distance on the map. But if you take into account the time that people have to do per person for public transportation, for walking and things like that, it's actually not fair. People in rural places have to pay more time to access the pharmacists which you cannot see on the distance-only map. And so when MP Galhong and previously, data analytics VP at Foxconn did that's interpolation to our minister, Chen Shijong. Based on this shared API data, ministers didn't defend the policy at all, it just legislated to teach us. And it was our co-working 24 hours later, we worked with Convenience Store, enable much more fair distribution. Yeah, I think fairness and openness really helped to build the trust. Definitely. Could you talk about, I think you mentioned in one interview, saying using rumours against humour against the rumours to fight with the fake news building these pandemics. Can you say something about that? Sure. So the idea is called humour over rumour. And the idea very simply put is that in this time of stress and anxiety, many people would believe conspiracy theories, panic buying and so on. And all in all, we call it the infodemic, which is like the pandemic, except it's the virus for the mind. Right. So when people get enraged about something, upset about something, people would click the share button without fact checking, without checking whether it's true or not. Right. So there was a rumour that says instant noodle is going to run out very soon as people go out and panic buy instant noodles. There was a rumour that says all the tissue paper material is being confiscated to make medical musk. So people go out and panic buy tissue papers. And so how do we counter that? Well, we make sure that every time we see such a panic buying or a disinformation campaign within a couple of hours, there's a very funny picture rolled out by our premier or by our cabinet member that elicits this idea of humour of fun. Right. So for example, on the instant noodle one, our premier, Xu Zhenchang, our head of cabinet, just posted this meme of a lot of instant noodles stockpiled and say, buy as much as you want. And then a small picture underneath saying, but don't forget your vegetables. And then all the mayors in the townships and in the cities, municipalities of the agricultural lands posted, Hey, don't forget our fisheries too. Don't forget our fruits. Right. So we see the mayors of Pingdong and of Pai Nan of all sorts of agricultural cities just started posted. It's like a festival of agriculture. And so because it's really funny, right, you left, right? That you're vaccinated. The next time you see instant noodles running out, you will not feel the outrage. You will not share the conspiracy theory. Rather, you will share this very funny picture of instant noodle with some vegetables or fruits and so on. And so this is called humor over and over. Okay. Thank you for sharing. So let's let's talk about our meeting industry because our, you know, the economy that we are already in the meeting industry. And nowadays, the virtual meeting is become, they call it, we call it a new normal. But, you know, we, but all our members, we all embrace face to face meeting, we believe the face to face meeting is more easy to, you know, create kind of intimacy because the human are, are, you know, the social animal. But what, but, but I, I found you are the, you are a fan of the virtual meeting. And how can we attract someone like you to attend a face to face meeting in the future, because we want to earn some money from your pocket. Of course, I think what's important is that the English word virtual actually doesn't mean it's less than real. It means it's more real than real. Okay. When we say these two are virtually the same. We're not saying these two are not actually the same. We're saying that these two are the same for any, you know, people who have any, like, criteria of sameness, whatever criteria you have, it passes that criteria. That's what virtually means. Okay. Right? It's meant as something like literally, right? So when we're saying that this is virtually home, I'm saying that this is literally feeling like my home, right? If the virtual meetings are not in the same degree of familiarity or intimacy as you put it, as face to face meetings, then I wouldn't say that it's virtually a face to face meeting. I'll just say it's teleconference, right? It's me talking to a piece of two dimensional glass. And so for it to truly qualify as virtual, as in virtual reality, I really need to feel real like as in reality. So a lot of my meetings nowadays take place in virtual reality. But these virtual reality meetings, first of all, there's a lot of social elements in it. I don't need to hold the controllers. I can just use my hands. And we can high five, we can hug, we can do all sorts of things, we can clap and so on. And all these numberable interaction patterns are within the XR space, the extended reality space. And the second thing is that it does not preclude the face to face part of it. So for example, we are having a face to face meeting now. But the audience is probably watching it from a two dimensional screen. Now imagine if we have another chair and empty chair here, and using augmented and extended reality, each of us can just kind of turn on our glass. And in addition of seeing each other, we now see the fourth speaker here. Then for that person, it's much more intimate. Because nowadays, with two dimensional classes, no matter how good the post production folks are, it feels like watching a movie. It feels like a large distance between the audience and the three of us. Now imagine if you can just get into the virtual reality and feel that you're on this table, or near this table, right? Not literally on this table as a plan. But anyway, the idea is that you can immerse into the co creation space. But the co creation space do take in some face to face space. So I don't think these two are mutually exclusive. If you really implement the virtual reality as a shared reality, that's virtually real. It's a great answer. So actually, it's linked back to my original question. Now, do you see there will be the new new type of the meeting format, after the pandemic, and also any kind of the event attendee, how they play different roles, it's kind of like a similar way of mentioning. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I think what does COVID have taught us is that really linking to even a immersive live streaming experience does not require very high end equipment. You can do it with your phone, or with just a browser and a URL. So where as many people as recently as maybe five years ago or 10 years ago, did have some experience with immersive experiences, all the way back to, you know, the VRML ages, the early web. And these are kind of clunky. And people understand it's actually not virtually real. It's not real by any degree. Right. And so many people do not entertain the idea of that sort of immersive meetings, because they had a bad experience five years ago or 10 years ago. But now when they reevaluate, they found out it's actually pretty good. It's democratized and so on. So I think it's a great chance for us to clean the cash in our brain and accept that really nowadays with the fiber optics and 5G, which is like a virtual fiber optic everywhere, even in outdoor places, we can get into the low latency mode, where we do not I know you're nodding to this sentence, not my previous sentence. It's kind of difficult to tell. We have 4G connection. Wow. So do you believe those IT company will take the leading role in the future of the meeting industry? Yeah, I think a lot of these tools, like the GC environment that I personally set up in our national center for high speed computation, these are open source, meaning that these are developed by those purpose driven organizations. And anybody can just download and run copy locally, which makes sense. Because if each of your nodding and action have to go to some cloud in some other country and back, then we lose the latency benefits provided by 5G and fiber optic connection. On the other hand, if most of us are in the same jurisdiction, or in the same time zone, it makes much more sense for one of us to host such a meeting system instead of going to like a very long away data sensor for it to be processed and then going back, even just on live speed issues. And so I think the on-premise hosting and open source ones or very low cost ones will really take the lead. For example, previously in the two dimensional live streaming, really the dominant technology is OBS or the open broadcasting software. Everybody uses OBS to composite their two dimensional live streaming. And that's a piece of open source software. You can acquire it for free. You can modify it for free. And you can also distribute your own modifications. Wow, cool. So I have a follow-up for two questions. Some of you are meeting participants today. They are the meeting organizers. So probably they're not from the technology or IT background. So actually they are very interested about what's going on and they don't know how to adapt. So any advice you can tell the like the leaders like the meeting organizer or even person, how do you find that advice on to give them? Yeah, I would say it's actually easier to start a live stream or even a 360 live stream or a life like face-to-face live meeting in virtual reality like in XR space. Or if you want to do it audio early, there's also high-fidelity.io and so on. It's all very easy. So the most important thing to keep in mind is just that it gets better with practice. So with your phone, with your laptop, try it for a while. Try it for a few times. And you find out it's actually as easy as starting a FaceTime call or a Skype call. And then you get into the habit of doing it more often. And once you do it more often, then you're not reliant on any particular technological vendor because you would know the toolkit of the available choices there. And then once you're not subject to what we call the vendor lock-in, and then the creativity part of a professional organizer, professional curator, start to play more priority than if you're a vendor locked in to a certain solution provider, then basically your creativity is limited by the features that offer a downspent. But most of our members, they host the congress meetings like 100 people or even 10,000 people in the future. But how can they do that with the technology you just mentioned? And how can they make money out of it? Well, if you have watched any live stream, I think 10,000 people watching is considered a small audience. In our live streams, for example, the one they used to be broadcasted daily by the Central Epidemic Command Center every 2 p.m., right? 10,000 people small now, right? The entire country is watching that particular live stream, right? So, first of all, it scales really well. If you don't need to worry about the scaling issues, the internet is built for this. And the second question is, how do you monetize it, right? Well, in this case, of course, this GECC may also be an inspiration, because by the end of the GECC's daily press conference schedule, they run out of news to report, because every day is just plus zero cases, plus zero cases, and so on. And so they started selling agriculture products. They would put some watermelon, right? Or whatever, to symbolize the zero of that day. And then Minister Chen just don't start at the tour, right? Starting in Cundin, and then goes to all the agricultural places, all the different counties, all the way to Nantou and so on. And the press conference went with him, right? And then people started learning, oh, it's okay to go and go outdoors and to resume our activities. And as long as you keep the mask on, on the more densely populated places, you don't have to do this contactless food panda or Uber Eats anymore. You can go to your favorite restaurant and say, Sinkula, right? And basically say, I'm still here, and so on. So when we rolled out the triple stimulus voucher, we built a lot of it upon the GECC press conference, a main message, which is safe now to go outdoors and shop. So I think a call to action is really important. When your audience is many time zones away, it's actually difficult to call them to attend a certain booth, which is what the organizer would do if they're physically in the same meeting. If you make sure that they can also do some actions online. For example, visiting an online booth, a virtual reality booth, and so on. Of course, that works pretty well. And I attended many online conferences that basically have breakout rooms. So after my keynote speech, for example, I will be shuffled with maybe 10 random persons to a smaller room where we can do a roundup introductions and then just start socialize. And more involved like the GovZero summits and so on, we even make sure that people order pizza or order the same kind of food before the teleconference meeting. So we can enjoy the same food together and so on. So there's a lot of possibilities to still make sure that the catering business, the associated business of exhibitions and so on, can still earn some money out of those large gatherings. But you have to plan it beforehand and because in Thailand we never had a lockdown. But we did at one time discourage large gatherings. So what many organizers did is that they organized a lot of satellite events and each satellite event is maybe just 100 people or less and preferably in an outdoor place because then you don't have to keep as long as social distance. But then simultaneously they watch the same keynote and then they break out in their own discussions and then there's still booths and there's still exhibitions. Okay, thank you. So the theme of this this congress in Galshaw, the ICA Congress in Galshaw is transformation. We said that theme back to 2017 but because of this pandemic, the transformation or some people say digital transformation become a buzzword and so everybody in our industry talked about transformation but what does the transformation mean to you? Sure, digital transformation is roughly speaking three stages. One is just digitization which is making sure that people who want to attend your event can do so over the internet, not necessarily face-to-face. So it's one extra modality. It doesn't necessarily take over the old modality but it makes sure that the new modality is as easy if not easier than the old modality. The second one is called optimization because once you have now redesigned your service to work with online people it doesn't really make sense for them to only do the same thing as the face-to-face people would do because online there's no restrictions of acoustics and physics. You can make sure for example when the keynote speaker is speaking it used to be that only people in the front row, in the front row view of the kind of nonverbal micro expressions in the speaker space but nowadays with virtual reality or even with just live streaming you can make sure that you shuffle people five at a time into this small room and each of them work with the digital double avatar of the keynote speaker and everybody enjoyed the same intimacy of the front row interaction and that could be done actually quite cheaply and it's been done for quite a few configurations even that I've seen musicals that after the fact invite the audience to take the position to step into the shoe one of the performance and then they can encounter what the performance have performed as a kind of first person perspective which is impossible to do in a face-to-face setting of course but it's actually not that hard to do on the virtual setting so that's called optimization and the third thing in addition to optimizing for everybody having a front row experience is innovation you can make sure that once this event is over it's not actually over you can reuse most of those materials in a way that's kind of a tailor-made experience for people who want to continue their learning front I just attended what we call a 7 on 7 at 7x7.no is a art exhibit where I had a conversation with artists and also making sure that each of our conversations recorded is turning to transcript and so on and then they fed all those transcripts of everything that I spoke do into a it's kind of hard to translate it's called a lottery poetry or it's a special thing so around here you would go to a sample you will bring your question and you will read your question quietly and then get this lottery poetry and just randomly draw a stick and a stick will contain a poetry that you can open and will answer your question and maybe you pay some money for the people in the temple to interpret that's poetry for you and so it's a consultation basically and so we recreated that experience in virtual reality so that people at any given time with any question about the topics that we have explored can bring that question and read a lottery poetry from the proceedings of prior previous meetings and then they can just zoom back into the conversation that we did have taken but if there are interpretations meaning that if that question is related to our conversation out of context way we can also do voice synthesis to make sure that my avatar speak something I've never said but will logically follow continuously from something that I have said and that's innovation because it's not just replaying from the first person's point of view it's not just replaying from the front row point of view this is actually synthesized avatar right okay and I don't have to like perform every time that people visit my digital twin performs for me okay that's the third level of transformation is enabling a new kind of interaction that nobody has thought possible but given the optimization result it actually become feasible to do okay thank you so much yeah I think under the the big thing of the transformation this time the conference is three meter pillar the first one is transparent in the open so would you like to give us some of your observation or your own data of course of course yeah I think in Taiwan the counter COVID effort was so successful because we're very transparent as I mentioned every day at 2 p.m the ccc answers every question that the journalist has and anyone who wants to hear the questions answer repeated again kind of like the lottery poach they they only have to dial one night to two which is a hotline right and they can just ask any question and if it has been answered before by the ccc press conferences the call center people have access to the same knowledge base and then can explain a much more patient's fashion to the person calling one i two two and that's transparency but also important is the accountability like the ability to give an explanation if people call and the ccc's knowledge base cannot answer that then it needs to be escalated to the ccc to be answered in next day's press conference and that accountability is very very important so for example back in april there was a young boy that call saying your rationing mask and all i get is pink medical mask i don't want to wear it to school because my classmate would laugh at me for a boy wearing pink uh what do i do do i you know uh try to go to school without a mask that will violate the ccc guideline and people in one attitude cannot answer that and so they just say will escalate to the ccc but the very next day everybody in the ccc press conference wore pink medical mask uh and so i think even minister chen shijong said pink panzer was his childhood hero and so the young boy become the most hit boy in the class because well only he has the color that the heroes wear and the heroes hero wear right so so what i'm trying to get it is that transparency coupled with accountability let's show that even when we make mistakes we can admit the mistakes while giving a competent answer just 24 hours afterwards and so this kind of competency then builds trustworthiness okay well okay so the other pillar is uh young anus yes and what what does young anus mean to you sure in taiwan we have this idea of reverse mentor so uh i'm old now i'm 39 you're young back when i was under 35 i was a reverse mentor to a cabinet member minister jekyll and saiyu ling uh in 2014 uh and at a time many cabinet members started working with people under 35 uh with uh what we call reverse mentorship meaning that the younger people uh show the direction of the country right uh so it could be open data it could be crowdsourcing and so on uh and then to cabinet members the older people make sure that they have the resource that they need to implement those new directions so nowadays i'm above 35 so i have my own reverse mentors all under 35 and the ministries of labor economy national boom council a lot of those ministries have nominated their own reverse mentors so all in all there's 25 people all under 35 uh and working very actively uh with the ministries in the cabinet and for example uh when huang weixiang um not even 30 years old when he entered the youth advisor council as a reverse mentor for the ministry of labor um petitioned basically in the uh youth council that uh the world skills competition winners uh need to go to the national day parade just like the olympic winners because we have a tradition of every year at our taiwan's national day uh the october 10th celebrates the recent winners of any majors or events uh and huang weixiang is like do you know that the world skills competition is also an olympic level competition so those skills champions also need to go to that national day events and so not only did he convince the minister of labor immediately invited her to uh russia i think uh where we won the third place internationally for world skills but actually all those world's good champions not only went to the national day parade but also then went back to the k212 curriculum classes uh to basically do place making community building and so on with the people in those middle schools and so for taiwanese in the middle schools nowadays those skilled um senior high is now not a secondary choice where you go when you cannot go to the academic uh high schools but rather they can work with their role models someone they can look up to those world skills champions and then do the place making and understand that uh working with skills education is a easier way for them to contribute to their community as opposed to the academic way so the other pillar of the transformation is young energy and what does the young energy mean to you and do you believe that young energy is the way to uh innovation yeah i think in taiwan we have this idea of reverse mentorship where the youth points the direction and then the older people give them the energy okay so i was personally a reverse mentor in 2014 uh i was the reverse mentor to the ministry japan side taiwanese and i was young back then 33 years old and so uh when she asked me to be her reverse mentor she explained it in the way that i just explained to you meaning that i will just draft out the directions like crowdsourcing open data and so on for the country but she will make sure that it's actually feasible realizable and gets the energy and resource to make it happen now i'm old of course 39 so i have my own reverse mentors but also more than 12 different ministries each have their own reverse mentors always under 35 to point the new direction for their ministry so just one example the ministry of labor have a reverse mentor the name is huangwei son when he joined not even 30 years out he proposed that in our national day parade which is every october 10th we already have the olympic athletes and so on the national parade like champions right to be applauded and he's like oh every year we also have this world skills competition it's like a olympics but for skilled people and so those champions also need to be on that parade and so he invites the ministry of labor to i think russia last year and then celebrated taiwan now i think the third place that year and so not only did the champions to go to the parade but also we change the regulations so that they can work always for example the k-12 middle schools and so on to show the young people their their role model those skilled people so that in taiwan those skilled people in the middle school have somebody they can look up to so they could convince their parents much more easily instead of you know having go to the academic senior high school and only go to this skilled high school if you cannot go to the academic high school kind of a second rate starting last year we promoted so that you actually have the first choice of going to the skilled high school to develop your skills to feedback to the community because the people in the middle school will already work with those champions on place making activities and making their communities better and making their schools better so that's a concrete idea by the young people and minister of labor gave the energy to the young people so the nation can go to a different and better direction well it's a very good example but how do you think about the education nowadays if you have an idea educational system in mind what they would be yeah it would be intergenerational it would be cross-discipline and it would also be global and that's how I learned right I dropped out of the middle school when I was just 15 years old and I told the head of the school at a time that I found this new thing called the war eye web that was 1996 while it was still very new and I found that people published their papers even before they go to the journals it's called a preprint server right and so on those preprint servers I just wrote emails to those researchers and they didn't know I was just 14 years old 15 so they wrote back and we start doing research together and so the head of my middle school after reading the email print out saw for a minute and she said okay from tomorrow on you don't have to go to school anymore you have a larger bigger global school and I will cover for you she said mean that she will fake the records so I don't get fined by the mid check medication right because it was compulsory and so I think just like computer science like the design schools those are of course people understand they could be taught and learn online now but more and more studies can be done online with the help of the extended reality and augmented reality so I think the disciplines and also the locality should not be a burden for someone who really are passionate in working with a research community or a learning community and nowadays with fiber optics everywhere including 5G technology and lower earth orbit satellites that's going to just bridge the last mile we can foresee a future where anyone who want to learn can integrate into a school but that school is very much decentralized and is everywhere and there is a trend now meaning industry according to some research by a German convention bureau is a lifelong learning that's right yeah but how do you see a lifelong learning for you know all the generation in the future yeah I think the as I mentioned in a reverse mentorship what's important is that both sides learn something the younger generation learn from the older generation the wisdom and know-how and the personal connections the red mind that they have to realize their ideas whereas the older generation learn about this global perspective on sustainability the SDGs the emphasis on climate change which wasn't there right 40 years ago in Taiwan we're very much linear economy 40 years ago right so this new attitude towards sustainability that's something the older generation can learn from the newer generation and the good ideas only comes to fruition when both generations can work very closely together thank you so much yeah so Audrey the last leader for this and I've heard about diversity I think the diversity means a lot if you know something you're right so of course I want to know from your perspective what you're talking about it's yeah of course yeah and this is when I get this mask out so yeah in Taiwan I think we really cherish diversity because there's more than 20 national languages in Taiwan now I think there's the 16 or more indigenous ones there's the Taiwanese sign language also a national language and of course there's the Taiwanese Hakka, Olo, Mandarin and also the mazu language and all these are national languages meaning that's the same history in Taiwan could be interpreted in more than 20 and that's the strength of our democracy because in each of those landscapes we can look at it and from a historical point of view from a variety of views they're like complementing each other's views into a truly trans-cultural republic and so we not only foster the cross-cultural conversations we also foster trans-cultural conversations meaning that if I learn a language like for me my native languages are Mandarin and Taiwanese Olo but if I learn Hakka or I learn one of the indigenous languages I get to view the early years of my own life but from a different perspective and that's called trans-culturalism and I think this makes democracy truly worthy because democracy is about everyone bringing a different voice if in a democracy only the dominant language can speak and nobody else can speak then it's not much of a democracy after all because it's much more authoritarian as compared to many ostensibly authoritarian regimes if in a so-called democracy only one dominant culture have their voice it might as well be authoritarian and that was the case 40 years ago in Taiwan right so we don't remember how bad it was in the martial law days right so we don't want to go back there and I think the identity of democracy and the identities of trans-culturalism in Taiwan is very much in their point yeah then we also heard about someone in the debate about sometimes when we have the diversity and the variety sometimes we're sacrificed but sometimes it's always so in this efficiency mm-hmm what do you think about that and that's that's what digital technology can really help yeah because it's true that if people in Taiwan order schools according to the national language act if they want to learn mathematics or learn the natural sciences in indigenous language and we have to provide it but we can't find at this moment so many teachers speaking say Sakilaya to all their different schools so right here actually in this very room we held the indigenous language virtual classrooms so there's a very proficient native language speaker of the indigenous language and before a I think a green room they just get all those kind of holographic projections of those indigenous lines to kind of surround in an immersive way that's class teacher and so people around Taiwan each and every one of them can just dial in into this virtual immersive experience of that particular indigenous culture and then learn together across the cultural and also across the transportational boundaries and so I think it really fostered an experience that not your culture is not only about what your neighbors are speaking but really what you identify with if you identify with multiple coaches in Taiwan then you get to join those virtual learning circles as enabled by digital technology and immersive technology so whereas it would be more efficient if everybody speak the same language face to face on digital technologies everybody can choose their own captions right so with the closed caption technology we're not saying like an online streaming service offering 20 different languages captions is inefficient because online there's no storage limit and it's not like you have to hire 20 interpreters to stand by and so if it could be done asynchronously with assistive intelligence and with minimal equipment each and every viewer's side then I think the efficiency argument no longer holds when we democratize the underlying technologies so I think you are really the heavy user for all the technology but I think I really also agree the the high-touch although it will be together with the high-touch right of course yeah I often say that ICT connects machine to machine which is important but digital connects people to people which is even more important yes it's fair too yeah so so at the end of the section would you like to give a device to a young generation because they are another young people they are they have kind of anxiety about the uncertainty for the future and also would you like to give an advice for the people who work in the meaning industry and the exhibition industry for the future development sure and it's the same message it's a quote from my favorite singer songwriter Lenny Kelwood and it speaks to everybody's perfectionism because when you're really good at something you tend to be shy about sharing unfinished work with other people you tend to just get it done like 99% 99.99% before sharing to people on the other hand in digital transformation especially we're going from optimization to innovation nobody know what the perfect offering looks like so it takes people of all the different experiences to co-imagine such a future and that brings people and people to gather and so the Lenny those I'm quoting now is from this song called Anthem it goes like this ring the bells that still can ring forget your perfect offering there is a crack a crack in everything and that's how the light gets in thank you for listening yeah I really like the quote thank you yeah right okay so this is very good should I still do the ending yeah sure why not okay yeah yeah okay okay sent you okay then thank you Andrew um sorry okay thank you Audrey I think we really enjoyed the conversation with you and your conversation really inspired us to our audience so we are looking forward to see you soon the major in percent or virtual yeah definitely so wear your mask wash your hands live long and prosper ah thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you