 You're listening to a podcast from each other. Each other are an unusual sort of human rights charity in that we use independent journalism, storytelling and filmmaking to talk about human rights. Our work is grounded in seeking out the lived experience of ordinary people affected by human rights issues in the widest sense. We prioritise voices from affected communities all over the UK, involving people in the process of developing their own stories rather than talking for or over them. We've lots of ideas about the kinds of stories we might get to bring you with our podcast, but under lockdown what we became really interested in was the ways we've all been doing things differently. Some of these interviews were recorded some time ago but all of them still have really fascinating lessons and insights to how we might do things differently going forward. I'm Sarah Wishart and welcome to our first podcast, No Going Back. I'm really delighted that for our first episode of No Going Back I was able to interview Peter Hall, who's the director for Filmer Television. Peter directed and executive produced It's a Sin, a five-part series that followed a group of young friends as they embraced London's gay scene in the 90s, confronted the tragic effects of AIDS on that community, created and written by Russell T. Davis, aired on Channel 4 in January 2021, took the lowing five-star reviews and had over 6.5 million viewers in the first week, making it Channel 4's biggest-ever drama launch. The show has been nominated for countless awards and in 2022, Peter won a Best Director of Fiction BAFTA for the show. Peter also directed the pilot and finale of the Umbrella Academy's first season for Netflix and has directed episodes of Altered Carbon, Iron Fist, Bear Devil and The Defenders for Marvel Netflix as well as two episodes of Cloak and Dagger for Disney. Peter's done so many fascinating projects but it was It's a Sin show I want to talk to him about the most. We started our chat with the idea how TV shows have the opportunity to reflect and echo back moments of time at us and how it spoke to my experience of London in the late 90s. I was in London in the 90s. It was really resonant, like I sent it all to my gay friends who don't watch that much telly and they were like, oh my god, it is like, you know, running around the table. Exactly. I think there was little elements of all the places I'd been to in those bars and bars and clubs. I was in heaven in the 90s. Mine was the late 90s really. Well, I came out in 92, but I had a five-year relationship. My 90 years, 97 to 2002 or three or something like that. So that's when I don't remember much. But I do think that that period, the 90s was equally as relevant in a different way because nothing had gone away. There was still a trickle of information, still people dying, in fact, exponentially more and more and more people dying. However, there were two things to deal with this concoction of drugs, which was, I had a friend who was taking some of the 25 pills in the morning and whatever. It was just unbelievable what was expected. But of course, it's lifesaver still. So you did it. But there was so sort of ill, it knocked them at the same time as trying to pick them up. And then there was the stigma because people still hadn't really accepted. It took years for people to really go, oh, actually, I can't catch it from touching somebody. I can't catch it from, you know, plus of course, the fear of sex. I think I was one of those people. It was my generation. I was 18 when the ad book came out for the gravestone that went, you know, so I think even though I hadn't become aware of my own sexuality, I knew that sex was dangerous. And I think that affected me a lot. I was always scared. Yeah. I mean, that was kind of like reflective of where we were at. I mean, because I was hanging around with gay men, you know, we were always having the test. And I remember one time, one friend, it was unequivocal. And we were like, what, what, there's like a third, like diagnosis, do you know? I mean, yes, you've got it. No, you haven't unequivocal. And while we waited, however long, a stupid amount of time, that's three months. I don't know, like, it was really long. And we were waiting to find out what his result, what unequivocal meant. And he had to do it again. Like that was terrifying. I remember like, yeah, because you I mean, I remember my first test, I was in Liverpool. And so it was very late on in the process. And we touch on that. And it's a sin because they have their tests in episode three after Collins diagnosis, because they like, oh, my God, if you can get him. And, and what I don't know if it was made clear is that was actually, it wasn't like they avoided having a test before, but it's actually, there wasn't one. So we're already six years into an epidemic. And, and now there is a test. And thinking about that in relation to now, it's like, we've gone so far in a year, we've gone through testing, we've gone through testing and tracing, we've gone through, through, we've got vaccines, we've not just got one vaccine, we've got six or seven vaccines. And of course, I know why, because everybody's affected. So therefore, there's a little bit more of, you know, an impetus. But yeah, so that was the first time you could get tested. And they, they all went, oh, my God, I've got to do that. But I got tested in Liverpool, and I was so scared. And I'll never forget going in for the result, which I think again, you know, six, something weeks later. So I spent all of those times thinking about, you know, have moments where you'd go, you remember a person you'd been with and go, oh, my God, was I safe enough? Was I safe at all? I can't, you know, whatever. And I remember going to get the result. And as I, as she opened the door, and I walked in, we had just crossed the threshold that she'd just closed the door and she went, just to let you know, you're negative. And I was like, and I think about it a lot because she, I think that's the best thing you could do. It was like, I'm not going to put you through any more misery. I'm not going to let you sit down. Everything's fine. And I sat, I sat down with her. I was like, ah, and actually she was the first person to say to me, because I said, I was quite worried because I'd, you know, you know, I don't think I said blow jobs. But I said something like, you know, I didn't know how risky I did. And she said, well, sometimes you also have to be aware that the statistics might not be right, because some men who contract the disease don't want to tell you how they got it. So they may have had lots of set, lots of, you know, anal set with carriers and not wanted to admit that because they were married or potentially they thought they were straight. So they tell you they had one blow job in, you know, down the docks. And, and that was it. So we have to write down what they say because it's, it's a statistic, but we have to, we also know, and that was, God, that was actually early 2000. So I was, I was really late. I was, but I guess in my way of thinking, I'd only really been promiscuously out. I don't like the word promiscuous. I've been active since 97, 98. So it felt like it's still a long time. God, I mean, that's not a good advert for being responsible. But yeah, but there's a lot going on, isn't there? Do you know what I mean? So kind of like, go over that hump to trust the medical profession. Do you know what I mean? Like, I didn't like all my tests were done in sex clinics. I never went near the doctors because the fear I remember was that it was attached to things like you wouldn't be able to get more if you wouldn't be able to get like loans from banks. Yeah, you know, I had to do, you know, in medicals for my job. And I just thought that that would be affected. It would have to go on that. And, you know, again, I see advances were slow, but they were, they were advances. They were making progress. But I don't think we were mentally, or I say we, we were, we were doing better than anyone back. But the world was making loops. And I think even with it's a sin after the first episode went out, Channel 4 was contacted by Terence Higgins Trusts, who'd worked very closely with Russell and said, you know, this is amazing. We're getting a lot of feedback already. But would you mind being partner with us to let people know that it's actually a lot? It's okay now, you know, not okay sorted, but it's, it's okay. Don't go back into a fearful position based on what you've just seen. The past was disgusting and horrible. We have improved. There is hope. There are people to talk to. And so they then ran a campaign and all the actors did a little piece to camera and just said, you know, undetectable equals untranslatable, all of these things, which even now some people still didn't know. So they weren't sure what that meant. The feedback was that undetectable just meant, oh, well, you know, it was like, I don't know how you'd explain it really, but they just thought it was still a curse. But undetectable means it's present, doesn't it? Like? It means you still have contracted a virus which lives in your system. But undetectable means no one else can get it from you. Plus of course, PrEP, you know, so much has changed for that reason. And but then again, it also stirred all the negativity because there were people running it press articles saying, you know, is this right? Should we be to the NHS be prioritising PrEP and not cancer treatment? How dare they? It's exactly what they said. Well, I have said for the last 40 years. So yeah, it felt like another reason why the show I think was successful because you can always go back to those those stories and go, see, it's why we still have to tell them because there's still progress that needs to be made. I want you to continue at the concept of this podcast and what it means to be radicalised in relation to HIV rights and the issues raised in the show. You know, the whole principle of mind of this podcast is the idea of no going back of a moment that changes and offers an opportunity to do things differently. And to me, the relationship between HIV and human rights is actually a big deal. There was this point where it perhaps radicalised, you know, a generation like if Richie had survived, then there would have been maybe a point where he's on those protests and he changes his perspective. Yes, I think the idea radicalisation definitely occurred. I think it's occurred in a certain type of individual, which, you know, we're not all like that. And I think where I understand Richie a bit is not by voting conservative, but it's certainly coming from a conservative household, because he was sheltered, right? He wasn't given an outward looking upbringing. He was shuttered in and sheltered. And of course, having different thoughts, different feelings, they're being different to the rest of the world. There was no encouragement for him. So it would have been a big deal for him to be radicalised at that point. Yes, though, his experiences would have changed. I think he would have been a slow burner. I mean, that's what I love about the show. He's not perfect. And I like that because, you know, that's not a reason to think somebody deserves anything and or a reason that he should be saved or otherwise. I think it was really interesting to get that as well, because like, you know, there isn't this all gay people are this. I mean, like, they're going to be positioned like this. They're always going to vote like this. And I mean, that was really the epicenter of a whole new line of agenda setting or decision making, because people were having to ask questions like they've never asked before. How do I feel about this? Like I've mentioned the word promiscuity and people were discussing, am I am I wrong? Am I morally wrong? Because I have sex with, you know, too many people. Is this something I should be shameful of? You know, and of course, you know, shame being the key theme of it's a sin, but it's like people who haven't had that thought. There's a lot of inward thinking, a lot of introspection. And that's not good, because not only were they doing that secretly at home, the world was pushing them in as well, you know, the newspapers and whatever. And then they'd go back to the show and obviously Russell, the queer as folk came along in 99 and felt like another like release, I think, for lots of people. I was openly gay at that point. But I still watched it secretly. I was living at home with my mum and dad because I was working on a TV show as a location manager and they put me up and I gave them rent basically. So but I still waited till they've all gone to bed and you know, watched it on my own. So I mean, look, I was 30 year old man and I still felt like something was was, you know, it's strange. The characters start facing not only the prospect of this unknown untreatable disease, but also having to deal with stigma and bigotry that suddenly erupted. One of the characters able to help at that precise moment was lesbian lawyer Lisbeth Furuki, who fights tooth and nail for the rights of the characters suddenly facing human rights abuses. Lisa and I talked about the role of protest and community. I think that A that you've got that protest sort of scene, which was amazing. And then also you've got the Lisbeth, the rights lawyer who kind of comes in that challenge is very present because of that sort of legal. Yeah, I think I think all of those stories are interesting. I mean, what it was an indication of is community. I mean, how important community is and was and will always be because if you if you raise your head up when you're at your lowest in a group like ours, you can you can find somebody who will help you. I'm also just reminded my brain does this, by the way, it goes off a lot of little tangents, but I was reminded of a friend of mine, an incredible man, a director I work with on Polyoaks. And he had been working in the business for forever. He was an artist. He used to live in Paris. He designed a front cover of a record for Edith Piaf and met her. He was in Soho in the 50s. And he had all those friends that you can imagine he was going to all the right places. And he told me about Soho. And I said, boy, it must have been so strange being illegal to be able to be arrested at any point. And he said something along the lines of, oh, my darling, it was delicious. We had such a fun time. And I said, but didn't you feel he said, no, you know, I mean, you had to do things a certain way. But you knew, he said, you knew who it was. And of course, he's talking about Soho and not like Yorkshire Dales. But he said, you knew who they were, you know, we all knew who to look out for. And he told me a story of whenever the police tried to entrap people. So what would often happen is you'd go into the urinal and it would be a policeman who was standing next to you and they would arrest you. And they'd give you the cards or whatever it was and say, you're being caught on Monday morning. And he said, what you'd do is you'd go and tell one of your friends in the community that they had happened. And they'd say, right, come with me. They'd take you to one of these bars that were hidden away in Soho. And you'd go through and they'd say, go and talk to John over there. And you'd go and talk to John. And John would say, when's your court date? And either Monday, 10 o'clock, okay, right, fine, leave it with me. And then you'd go to court on Monday thinking, what's going to happen? And then sitting in front of you in all the robes and finery was John. He was the judge. And then you'd be like, well, you're not going to do it again. Are you? No, you've learned your lesson, haven't you? Okay, just go. And he said, that's what we did. We all looked out for each other. We had people at all different levels of society and we just looked out for each other. Of course, people fell through the cracks. We know this. And there are tragedies everywhere. But it just reminded me of then when you move forward and Jill goes, Pete will help us. She just immediately knows that Pete's a guy for help. So they go to see Pete and they're at the exchange. And all of what's important about all of this, of course, is by taking part. Jill knew all this because she was taking part. She was on the phones at the gay switchboard. So if she hadn't taken part in her community, she may not have those answers. And I think that's another lesson in that. It's like, and maybe radicalization sounds very big deal, but actually just be there. Just take part. Just turn up. Be one of the gang of people that says, this isn't right. And I'm going to be a number to be counted. If that's what it comes down to, I'll be that person. But yeah, she knew Pete. Pete knew Lisbeth. Lisbeth comes in and flaunts herself, but is incredibly smart at the same time. There's no question that Lisbeth knew didn't know she couldn't win this. And it actually said, I think in the stage director, and it says, a Muslim lesbian woman holding court. She's loving this or something like that. And it was like, it was going on all over the place. But yes, allies and people in the know, they were everywhere. But I can imagine also that for some people, it was easier to retract than reach out. And I think that is still the case. But yes, maybe shows like this help people realize you need to stand up. One of the aspects that's featured in a lot of column inches about the show focuses on how key characters are played by gay actors. I talked to Peter about the implication of this sort of representation. One of the things I wanted to talk about was how important it was of this and how interesting it is that this is a British kind of like representation. Because I was I was at uni in 96, 99 in London. And I did drama. And we studied Angels in America. Like I was like really into kind of, you know, that sort of like narrative. And that a lot of the narratives of the HIV history to me were American ones like tells the city, do you know what I mean? So yes, even though I also read a lot of Derek Jarman. So I did have that sort of narrative coming through in some ways. But it's really interesting to look at this. Yeah, I wonder, I mean, there's a lot of things we could suppose about why the British didn't do more to tell the story. And it might be that innate repression. If it is diagnosable that we all suffer from, I say we all sweeping statement. But, but you know, there is a buttoned upness compared to I mean, I also think that, and again, this doesn't actually explain why we haven't got big stories in British stories before now. But the American stories are often so close to the actual outbreak and the real heart of the epidemic that there's a lot more rage, there's a lot more anger about the whole thing. And actually, they're incredible pieces of work, but they're not easy pieces of work to watch. And the heartbreaking devastating as ours was, but we were able to inject joy and love and happiness and life because maybe because it was further down the line, maybe that's the Britishness, certainly is the Russell is Russell part Russell was like, it has to be about life. It has to be about the life lost, not the impending doom. And in fact, I was talking to my friends last night on a zoom and one of them said, I couldn't get over how quickly I fell in love with those characters. That's what made it all work. I think that's where the others not suffered because that's not what they did, but that's where the others had had a harder journey for us as an audience because that's not what they were trying to say. They were really raging against it all and going, this is such a so unjust, but that doesn't really answer the question. But I mean, why was it good to have a British version? I mean, I think it's good to see a story told. It's always good to see a universal story told from a different angle. I think actually maybe people don't even think about that to universality. I think the American story because it didn't originate in America, but you know what I mean? In America, in San Francisco and in New York, there were two pockets of the epicenters where this all kicked off. And so I think some people have maybe a skewed view of it. We were lucky enough with our show to attract quite a wide audience than one of the first times on Channel 4. It's like the ideal, the holy grail of TV is when you can get 18 to 55 year olds all watching the same thing and getting something out of it. And I think a lot of people in that older group hadn't really taken into account how devastating it had been here. They thought, oh, yes, it must have come here. It did come here. I know it did here. Elton John talks about it, but I don't know if they knew that it was as early as that. I think they maybe thought it was something that filtered over. So I think it's always important to hear our story. But I think it's more than anything. It's about our story now. I think that's what I feel is the most important thing about it to sin. It feels like it's the right time somehow. And it's not COVID related, but of course that helped. Looking back to careerist folk, obviously, there was quite a lot of straight actors. Yes. Good for them. They went right in, and we saw that. They did, yes. And they did well, and they were taken to our hearts by both predominantly, I think, back then gay community. And they've all got incredible careers out of it. So that's good. But I think, again, the authenticity we achieved is second to none with what we did. Casting gay actors, I think it would have been harder in 1999 to cast gay actors because I'm not sure they would have come forward as much. So that's a key issue. But yes, I'm going back to us, our authenticity of choosing gay actors to play gay roles in a drama where we were talking about an age group of people they were representing. It's like these are the people that would have died. This band of actors in their early teens to 25 or whatever, a lot of them went. And I did some research in exchange to say this is research. But I'm a big TV watcher. I used to watch lots of Doctor Who. And I was watching lots of old dramas and thinking, God, he's handsome. Where did what happen to him? And I'd look him up on INDB and it would just end mid-80s. So I'd then go on Wikipedia. And inevitably, honestly, they were all taken by AIDS. Obviously, Russell's friend, Dursley, who was in Doctor Who that we made a tribute to. And I remember looking him up and thinking, God, no. And it's not about being a handsome course, it's not. But it just felt like this is... But it did feel like I looked him up and I was like, oh, it's a beautiful boy cut down and this entire generation disappeared. Yeah. And I think what's fair to say for him as well is he was, he did Doctor Who in 87. I think he died in 93, but got the diagnosis around that time of Doctor Who and then tirelessly campaigned to his end for HIV awareness, AIDS awareness and raising money and stuff like that. So, and I think he was a life force. And I think that's also what Russell remembered. He was just such an energy. Russell said to us, he said, he said, I know this is going to come up and I know we'll get challenged on it. But he said, I also had an occasion where someone came up to me about cucumber and said, why did you cast a straight boy in this role? And he said, I didn't have an answer. The person said to him, I think it was in a social situation, possibly in a club or a bar, and he said, did you look hard enough? And it was quite accusatory. But he said, did you look hard enough? And Russell said, at that point, he thought, maybe I didn't. You know, maybe I didn't. And of course, cucumber was not that long ago. So I think back in 1999, I could have, I could understand an argument why it might have been difficult to see those people coming forward for roles, particularly Charlie Hunnam's age, you know, he was only like 18 or something himself. It would have been very difficult, I think. But cucumber, there's no excuse. And maybe that hurt him a bit because it's not like Russell doesn't care. Russell cares enormously. So I think he thought, you know what, maybe I didn't look hard enough. I'm not going to make that mistake again. It just seemed and has proven to be the right thing to do. It's not just the right thing to do. It's the only option, I think, is to do this. You know, ensuring that the stories that different kinds of stories are being told by different kinds of people feels like a small thing. But actually, it's a really big deal for people to be able to see themselves. Visibility is everything. I mean, you know, I think stories, that's why a queer as folk was so important to me, because I saw people who I represented me on screen in a big, bold way, colorful way, happy way, fun way. And that's what Russell's talked about this recently, about why he didn't include HIV and AIDS in that. But he did. It's like, but it happens elsewhere. He said, well, that's not that story. I wasn't going to tell that story. I wanted to tell a much more visible, exciting, you know, forward thinking story of owning who we are and being proud and all in pride, literally pride, right? So and I remember, I watched that as a 30 year old man who'd been out for a few or more than that five years or so. And I think it was like one of maybe maybe two programs or two things I've been able to see. I mean, I was aware of, and this is a different conversation, but I was aware of some, you know, gay movies that were around. And I've watched some. And I've been so terribly sad. I've been affected by them because they were inevitably surrounding death loss. And nobody seemed to come out of a gay movie, a gay themed story well. And so I think again, why Curious Fate was so important to me and other gay men is that it was a life giving sort of thing. It was, you know, it even turned into fantasy. I remember that not being happy about that, but they went off into the sky and into the four by four. And I'm like, well, and that that could be debated forever. It's like, why did he do that? Is it fantasy or is it reality? But visibility is everything. And you only know this if you're part of a minority that's underrepresented seems very hard. It's a very trite way of putting it, but a lot of people might say, oh, I'm a gays are everywhere. You know, it's Graham Norton and Boy George and all of that. And I'll go through a list of people and you'll be like, for a start, a lot of these people didn't exist in their lives visibly for a long time. So you can't just bring them into the conversation. Elton John, for certain, by Boy George and other, you know, his group probably all very, but outside of that, you know, people would just say, oh, he's just dressed a bit fun, isn't he? And that would be it. No conversations would really be having happening. George Michael, so many people, anyway, that's why the 80s are so powerful for our story. But yeah, you know, true visibility, unashamed visibility, visibility that doesn't have to also, I think this is important now, not having to explain itself. You shouldn't have to make a story with gay themes or characters in that are just there to explain the gay theme and the story. It's like Superman could be gay, but you don't have to make it about that. It would be, it just is, it's just that would be nice. In the same way that whiteness or straightness is everywhere without being explained, I think we ought to be moving into that world where everybody is just who they are. That's why fantasy is so good as a genre because you don't have to explain yourself, you know, and that's also wrong because we should be doing it in reality. But, you know, you can make a fantasy of all colors, creeds, shapes, sizes, everything, beliefs and no one questions it. I've seen some criticism on Twitter that the stories don't include everybody, right? So, you know, so there isn't gay women kind of like within it. There's like, you know, it's still quite white. But I've also seen some supporting things, which is we need more of all these stories, but you can't expect this one story to take every single base. No, something I said earlier about about what story we are here to tell, I think that is relevant. And maybe I don't want it to sound like that's what we all retreat to as program makers going, well, we didn't want to tell that story. So don't blame us. I mean, there is a responsibility and it's important and we carry it with the highest regard. But yes, you can't do everything. We had a little bit more in one scene from the lesbian nurse where she explained, and this is why we didn't include it in the end, because it didn't feel comfortable. It was forced and that's not how it should be. I don't think it's progress, but she had a speech to Richie. It was about her being a lesbian nurse. The reason that she's there in doing his business is because no one else wants to touch him, you know? And that's a truth of the day is that mostly those wards were filled with lesbians or gay men because no one else wanted to take the jobs on. The nurse Lorraine, you know, actress Ashley, you can make your own call on that. You can watch those scenes and go, is she, isn't she? But then I also think there's power in that because it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You can have the debate in your head about whether you thought she was a lesbian nurse or not. And if we've done our job right, then I think a lot of people would go and investigate the story anyway and find that. There just needs to be more openness and programming and channels and broadcasters and commissioners taking on that and saying, actually, we need more of this. Not that this one show has to speak to every single aspect. I think we did okay that there's always work to be done. If your drama touches real lives and talks about real situations and uses them for the purposes of entertainment, you have a responsibility. So I never want to deny that. I always want to think that we can do more. We did have that conversation a lot during the process of making it. Is this good enough? Are we doing enough? Have we done enough here? Because obviously, again, Russell writes a lot. We shot about 60 minutes for each episode and only 42 of them ever made it out. Sometimes it lines, sometimes it seems. But yeah, we have to decide what we keep and what we don't. So that can sometimes go wrong. And I think mentioning that the lesbian nurse Lorraine could have been one of those moments. We should have perhaps done more to keep those lines in. But also more women characters generally, we've got that all there. All the bonds we wrote, they're there. So I think to do things properly, it's always about having a conversation, having a debrief and thinking where we can make important decisions going forward. So representation, diversity, visibility are all things I can do as I choose my team. I think more importantly, my team, as well as my cast, I think in casting, we've made great progress. Still a long way to go. I'm grateful to be learning about through my husband as much as anybody else, all the people I work with and the people I watch and follow online. And if we have conversations as broadcasters about making a gay story, we're not doing enough in that respect either, because it's wider and broader. And we've got to tell so many other stories. My key thing is, let's not make it just little pockets like, oh, we're making a story about a transgender character. Great tip. Yes, it's great. But you're putting it into a box and saying that's our transgender box. I think what would really work for visibility is that everybody sees, everybody has access to it. And I think it's very easy to say, oh, I don't like transgender drama. I'm not going to watch. But I think you've got to be challenging people very, you know, you've got to make them watch. That's why Soap Opera, that's a great job to do, because it can do that. It can include all people and tell all stories. There's a charity called On Road Media, where they try and place kind of those sort of stories within Soap, because it becomes much more acceptable to kind of, I don't know, find those stories, listen to those stories and change people's perspective on things. And also, I feel like then it's not just the fantasy bit, but you're not telling trauma stories. You're not expecting people from those communities to have to tell that trauma story over again. And in fact, it just becomes a story about their relationship, which is mundane. Or do you know what I mean? You tell those sorts of stories within Soap. Yeah, exactly. People who are transgender still go shopping. They still put clothes on and go, well, look nice in that. And they still go out for a drink with their friends. So it's like, it is about removing the demonization of all these groups. And I still know for a fact that a lot of my straight friends haven't seen It's a Sin. And it's not because they don't care about me or about the show or about the cut. It's just something they can avoid. We're lucky. We've made an impact. I think a lot of people now are going, oh, God, I should be watching it. I've not seen it. 25 episodes, I'll do it. I'm not coming away happy. But yeah, I think it's sometimes very easy to avoid these things. Social media helps a lot because we can see if we want to, of course, it's still about choosing who you follow. But younger people are way better at doing this and opening their minds and going, I want to hear this person's story. And there are very brave people telling you of their journey. And I think sometimes when you compare the impact of storytelling between us as broadcasters and the social media, we're way behind. We often feel like an old uncle or old relative sort of lumbering around going, I'll tell you about. It's a bit like grandpa in The Simpsons going through all his stories. And it's like, they're great stories still. We're still telling great stories, but it feels like we're late to the party. What do you think about visions for the future in terms of storytelling and what would you like to do next? What would you like to see next? Well, I think I've touched on where I think problems come whereby you commission a drama where there's only one outcome, i.e. it's only about a certain group in society, which is a great thing for visibility and all of that. But it still keeps that, I hate to use the word ghetto, but it keeps that feel of it's okay. It's a box. It's like, you're okay. It's the John Inman thing. You're okay as long as you stay in those confines. So therefore, it's not okay. Therefore, it's not really doing much. It's also a little bit like a zoo, right, where you go in and look at all of these things and it's perfectly safe. They're not going to come and get you. And I think what I want to see more and more is stories being told that are just open from the very start. And we are in control of those stories. It's like I get annoyed, bless them, the BBC, when they'll commission another Jane Austen or something. And I'm like, great, lovely, wonderful stories. But it's not helping anybody unless you do a Bridgerton, unless you do that. And of course it was Netflix. And of course it was Shonda Ryan because who else was going to just go, fuck it, I'm doing this. And they don't have to explain themselves. And why should they? It's like, so look, I mean, I'd love to see more of that brave. And it shouldn't be brave, but it needs to be brave commissioning of stories where it's not about what they call box ticking. And if we're going to progress, we mustn't be token, we must be inclusive. So diverse and inclusive. So sometimes diverse makes you sound like you're disappearing or going away. And actually inclusive is probably a better word of what I feel is necessary. And those stories exist. We've just got to make sure that they're the ones we champion, I think. And as a sort of like, just a final thing, can I just tell you how much I loved the representation of the laugh of that, of that thing that happens so much with all my friends about you, you have something and it becomes a shared moment. And then you boil it down and down and down and down and down until it just becomes this tiny thing that just like, yes, reminds everybody or it's a connector. I thought that the show did that incredibly well, which was obviously writing and directing and the acting as well. But that was just it was interesting because Russell was very it's Russell's memory. So it's real. Russell and real Jill had this moment and it came from Wales with his gang and it sort of came with him to London. But he was very important. He had a little laugh rehearsal with the actors and he then goes, no, no, no, no. Right. So he'd make them get it right. And of course, I was slightly a distance going, well, I get that, but I want it to be this this guy, you know, it's it's these people that I need it to be real exciting and make them laugh and whatever. But we shot that scene where they all come running down the corridor to say, I'm off for my interview, you know, bye bye. And oh my God, it was the cutest thing ever. You know, and I think going back, I said about how you can fall in love with our characters so easily. And I think that's one of those moments and they walk in and they show how good they look for their interview. And it's like mum Jill on the corner go, you'd be good today. And Colin forgets. So he has to come back and you know, it's it's it is it is and it's all all the themes of the show all rolled into one. It's about we it's a code, you know, it's queer coding. If you like, it's like, we know about this, and nobody else does. And we are a community and we're together. And we're safe. And if we stick together, it'll all be all right. And it's like, you know, that is what la is all about. And it's gone crazy. I've got three t shirts, I think with la rum and Philip Normals being the well, they're all they're all incredible. But I think Philip started it and swamped with orders. I think he's made like 250,000 to 300,000 pounds for Terence Liggins. So unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah. I want to play just a little extract from it's a scene, which is the moment when the in joke Peter and I were just discussing was born in a performance by Richie, arguably a central character. I want to say a very special thanks to Red Production Company for Channel 4 and HBO Max and Association with all three media international for the clip we use today from it's a scene. Thank you for listening to the very first episode of No Coming Back. This was an each other production with original music by Shamika Roddick. I'm your host, Sarah Warshaw. I want to find out more about each other, about the podcast, about the themes and issues raised in this first interview. Please go to our website, www.eachother.org.uk. We want to grow this podcast and the way that you can help us do that is to subscribe to us on the podcast app of your choice.