 Son of a bitch. Do you think you can elude us forever Carlos? Huh? Wait, you got the wrong guy. My name's Simon Look, just let me go. There's no need to kill me. I haven't seen your face. Oh The game's over your careers in international terrorists has been well documented. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah No, no, no, I saw cars. That's all I'm not a terrorist I'm actually a complete coward if I were so good No, no, please don't don't don't don't kill me. Yes. Yes a throwback movie to the good old fun days Arnold Schwarzenegger, Tom Arnold Bill Paxton yucking it up in true lies about a fun covert Intelligence operation not at all scary where the terrorists are really just used car salesman. Oh the good old days Maybe they weren't so good. Here's what was really going on What you cut his teeth in Vietnam I mean doing this very very spooky operation called a wandering soul He developed these recordings known as ghost tape number 10 and basically what they would do is they would play these sort of eerie Sounds and and wailings the idea of this was to sort of suggest and to play off What they imagined as being the Vietnamese belief in wandering ghosts and spirits It's very Sam Harris. I have a sneering thing where it's like oh we can manipulate these savages beliefs even to bring it up to the 80s to the Michael Queen is very odd performances on Oprah and the Roldo show when he went on to you know, basically defend the temple of set and Satanic practices and stuff during the height of the so-called Satanic panic you could almost see a parallel between operation wandering soul and what he was doing there Because he was going on TV in such a provocative way where it's like he knew he was going to basically trigger all the kind of conservative Christian types that were being Terrified by what Oprah and Roldo and all these other people were saying about how there's these evil cults But then he was also sitting there and going like that is actually not true I am you know I might have devil eyebrows and have this like you know like very witchy wife and stuff and seem very sinister But you know actually there's nothing to see here It almost like it in the sense of the real goal of the recording of wandering soul was to get the the Viet Cong soldiers to review to get angry and reveal their position and expose themselves and It was it was all about eliciting a psychological reaction that was actually not Exactly what the kind of a sensible goal of the operate of the Psyop So I got this interview coming up with the guys from subliminal jihad Which is a fantastic podcast that I discovered and I want you to check out as well We cover so many topics in this interview But one of the focus points is this guy Michael Aquino who is a Satanist pedophile probably murderer of children almost for sure and a guy who was Legitimately embraced by our military and intelligence organizations. I mean he was totally embedded He was highly highly regarded for his knowledge and insights for mind control and mind games Here's an additional clip and I think that you know, for instance, you mentioned the twerking on the devil You know, this is a huge flashpoint our culture a huge controversy over Lil Nas X's video a common point that people made vis-a-vis the video was that well, you know Look at the ending, you know little Nas X actually he's using his sexuality to seduce the devil But in the end he kills the devil and then he puts a devil's horns on himself So really he's killing Satan. So isn't that good? And it's like well, you know, if you think about what these people like Michael Aquino for instance What they really believe like that actually matches up perfectly with their ideas about their how their relationship with these entities work You know, they of course no one's ever gonna sign on to like the Christian idea of a deal with the devil Like that people will warn you about no one would take that deal probably, you know It's because they think that they have a loophole. They always have a way out, you know And oftentimes it's because they can ascend themselves. They can become, you know The dark prince or you know the god unto themselves. That's exactly what satanism teaches like which is you know There's a vulgar more secularized version of that in the church of satan and an even further more Secularized version of that and the the satanic temple where you have the idea that there, you know, you can yourself It's all about the the grand judgment of the self, you know the ascension of the self the godhood of Becoming a god. Yeah, exactly. They think that they're they're not gonna be accountable because They will, you know find a loophole that they will become they will become set You know as I've said before I'm not into steering into the abyss and I don't want to do it in this case But I do feel like we do need to reach as I keep saying in this interview Terra firma we need to have some kind of ground that we stand on to at least look out and assess the playing field Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex Cares and today we welcome two very Interesting guys creators of a remarkable podcast salt called Subliminal jihad we have Dimitri posh lost and call it binyak up here to join me now I had to struggle through those names guys. Did I get was that okay? Yeah Yeah, yeah, you did it. Well, right cuz cuz like I said from here on out. It's it's Dimitri and call it the whole way Yeah, that's not works for me So, you know, I kind of stumbled across Your really truly remarkable kind of off the radar I think for a lot of people but let's hope not show from the opperman report and I was kind of blown away and I came over to your excellent Sound it's on SoundCloud and it's also on Apples podcast. Yeah, and patreon as well. Okay. Yeah, great. So I did I'm on patreon to Support these guys. They're doing some really really great work. So I started digging into the shows and you know, I'm thinking of this is kind of a Swapcast kind of thing in that I just want to kind of introduce this podcast to people and then we'll just kind of chat about the world kind of thing because the shows that these guys do To sometimes three hours with dense dense information. I'll tell them to be true You know, it's like I love listening to them But I'm like they're pausing and making Audio notes the whole way through with all the and they're not doing name dropping kind of thing. They're doing like deep Name connection this idea and that idea and so many of the things that we talk about on this show. So Great to have you guys here. Welcome to skeptico Can you start by telling us a little bit about your background and then the origins of this podcast? Yeah, sure. It's great to be here. I'm very excited and yeah, I don't know call it We we've known each other for quite some time Yeah, we're old RIL friends, you know, which is in the case with all podcasts, but yeah we are authentic RIL friends and we yeah, we know each other for a while and We've both had we've talked about doing this for a long time because I think as we mentioned on the show You know, we're both we both did like a lot of writing like creative writing, you know collaboratively together like at various times and you know, we would have long Conversations brainstorming ideas for things projects like that and we always felt that we would be good at the the podcast I mean, I feel like something that people often point out about our shows that I have like a very annoying voice and Dmitri has like a very A sonorous like a molecular sort of beautiful one, which wasn't something that I thought of as being a dynamic of the podcast I just thought that since we talked like at such length like all the time, you know, it would just be a natural And we always had an interest in, you know, in the occult Dmitri particularly in conspiracies and that type of thing And I've always been interested in religion spirituality and the peculiar, you know esoteric forms of that So I felt like we had kind of intersection of interests and when we were kind of talking about what the podcast theme would be That was naturally what we gravitated to so yeah, that's kind of the Short genesis of it. I don't know if you wanted to add anything to that Dmitri Well, Collid, Collid, one second there because I totally get that and that's super interesting. What about, you know, personally You guys don't reveal a lot. You guys are really kind of off the radar a little bit I mean personally about, you know, how old are you? What is your background? What did you do before this? What do you do now? I mean, what are you? Yeah, we're millennials. I'm an academic yet. I'm an academia and yeah Yeah, I work on like a climate and electrical history is with my research is and yeah Yeah, as for me, I live in Los Angeles. That's another thing about us. We're on both coasts So yeah, that's right. We used to live in the same place But not for many years, which is kind of why the the Skype and zoom Brainstorming sessions started to begin with but I've been in LA for like about a decade And I've worked kind of in and around the film business and like Collid said I've done a decent amount of or a decent bit of screenwriting kind of in the periphery of Hollywood and a lot of the scripts that I had worked on maybe over the last five or six years a lot of them had a Very heavy historical bent or you know, there were either biopics or historical things so I ended up doing tons of research into certain topics that led me down these rabbit holes where I just kept digging further and further and further and Then kind of that that's actually where I think kind of my interest in quote-unquote conspiracy culture really took off and then yeah, I know I've worked as a video editor and Bunch of other things around, you know, LA and like the entertainment business and nothing that you would like notice if I like Shattered it out right now, but you know just a lot of things here and there So yeah, that's like we do have kind of like an arts background to some extent Which I think is like an interesting angle to take, you know, we talk a lot about Hollywood and cinema and You know that kind of are the art form Kind of more contemporary sense because also like part of the reason I think besides the pandemic that finally really pushed us into Starting the podcast was this feeling that Hollywood is less and less amenable Certainly to the types of projects I had been working on for five years and you know in some cases for example, they were critical They had themes in it that were critical of the United States military And I found out in a very subtle way going to dozens and dozens of meetings and you know with the Producers executives and stuff and a couple times people, you know kind of told me under their breath look man, you know Anything that has the military that has anything negative about the military in it is not going to get funding from the military You know, you know, they give out free stuff if you write something about them And if they and but then they get script approval on it And so if you write something that they don't approve of then the budget of your project just skyrocketed And therefore most producers are loath to even kind of get involved And that's why you basically don't see any anti-war or empire critical content coming out of Hollywood I think probably since like the Iraq war days was the last little tiny bird instead It's all about how brave the CIA is and stuff That's kind of maybe more of my like personal motivation of being very frustrated in Hollywood and realizing that there is so much so many layers of subtle kind of massaging and Certain doors allowed to be out, you know, certain doors open other ones closed It's kind of this very, you know, you could almost say subliminal system of Gatekeeping and like in a kind of way that you know, and I think both of us, you know Having done creative writing like understand that, you know, there's ideological content Let me interject something here and neither one of you guys can address it But directly to you to meet you because I was just thinking about this the other day One of the things I appreciate about you guys you guys say you're millennials I'm a little bit older than that but I appreciate that you're Not afraid to go back and kind of dig through some recent history. So, you know, Michael Aquino is one of the first shows that kind of caught my attention the kind of high satanic priest and Chaplain in the United States Army has proven pedophile and proven satanist and all this but he's circa 1960, you know and before as you guys trace and you guys doing an awesome job of tracing that whole history But my point is that to a certain extent what your show does by By its willingness to go back, you know, even like you did the thing on Jeffrey Epstein It's like, okay start cranking it back and now boom the connections start leading us further and further back Don't you get kind of a more of a business as usual sense about that? Dimitri, you know when you talk about Hollywood in the last ten years and what's going on fuck man That's business as frickin, you know, I'm normal. Oh 100% a hundred percent and I think the more that I've I've had to revise even my own history and even under some Some of the most recent episodes. I've discovered new things that throw even yeah the further back history of Hollywood in quite a different light that you know, I realized that yeah No, that's been a gradual process of discovery is that Hollywood's always been it's always been Hollywood Babylon, you know I mean from like the very beginning it's always been a dirty business and I think it's just sort of like it's They're new things manifesting. I think the really the only thing that's kind of really new in the last 10 years in particular is the hybridization or some would say, you know takeover of Hollywood by Silicon Valley and the tech companies and now that is like they are actually in within a span of about Five to seven years. They've become kind of the undisputed hegemon's of the entire like movie business and You know, but even that goes back so much further to say that, you know Oh, they just started kind of interacting with one another in the 2010s. They do, you know I mean, these are the two biggest industries in California, you know It makes sense that they would have overlap going further back and also just with the the the Satanism thing I mean, you know, we've talked a lot about the 60s and that's another big like ontological breakthrough that I think, you know I I had over the last few years is that the 60s were not exactly what we were commonly told They were whether whether you kind of agree with the 60s or you think that they were Stupid because America rules are so hippies were bad or something like that You know, like both of those narratives are kind of wrong and that there was so much more going on in terms of like social manipulation That and and cultural manipulation that is so baked into our culture now that it's like that That's maybe that kind of fuels us. I think on our deepest dives is we have to unpack all this this like faulty Ontology that has been built over Decades and in some cases centuries, you know, if we're talking about the United States overall That you know to get at the kind of truth or try to apprehend kind of where we're really at I think you do have to yeah You have to dig back and then you do fine I think you're absolutely correct that it ain't nothing new under the sun as we love to say Yeah, that's one of our I think a historical methodology is very valuable because there's two It's really a dialectical thing because yeah, like as Dimitri said often times our refrain is there's nothing new under the sun Which is you know, something that we say kind of ironically It's a reference to a kind of a reactionary podcast that we stumbled upon a little bit of a fascist Convo ongoing between two esteemed mikes, but Bin Laden hunter I think that there's a lot of value to historical methodology because yeah on one hand You have what we mentioned But on the other that's you it's often good to have a granular approach and something that is very encouraged when you're dealing with historical topics is to really deal hone it on the fine differences the fine distinctions between Different things and you can do you can do see I think that there are changes and I think that we try to stress a dialectic between these overarching trends You know, I want to talk about these broad trends these that you know things that happen in the long deraille versus things that you Do transform in in the microcosm and I think that yeah That's part of historical approaches to show the changes and to show the way these things evolve and develop and a lot of time yet There are continuities, but there are also breaks like I think that the cultural history Especially the history of art which we mentioned is very interesting because you know at the surface level a lot of time People get into the sort of hidden world and they want to deal with hidden knowledge like occult subjects You know it's something that is a perennial topic in conspiracy Culture and conspiracy discourse, which is something that we definitely touch on a lot in our in our podcast And something that came to this for I think is a good example during the sort of pizza gate discourse I sort of at the the election time in 2016 was you know, Marina Abramovich, you know someone who's like pretty well, you know into people who are Involved in art or in performance art or have a knowledge of that type of thing But this is breaking into a totally different field where people who had never had any contact with this stuff are like What is this like? Oh my god, like, you know, so it's very interesting to explore You know these topics are very of great interest to people But there isn't much for one. I think that in general like in American culture There's a lack of historical awareness writ large like people's politics are very underdeveloped because of their lack of Historical appreciation, but particularly like in the domain of culture and the like art is something that's marginalized anyway It's importance and in shaping a culture and in shaping our, you know It's in our society and our relationships with with each other and with different institutions But I think that in particular the history of art the cultural evolution of art and the link between art and the Occult and between art and politics and the way that these sort of elite subcultures move together That's something that's very interesting and the story that's not really well appreciated like within those discursive fields. I think See, I don't know and that's where I guess when I shot you this email and I said I want to get to terra firma because You know and I just did a book why evil matters and the Kind of premise of the book was that we've been intentionally kind of given the bait and bait and switch not really but with evil but we have a Materialistic science that says evil doesn't exist. Yeah, you're a biological robot in a meaningless universe It's a social construct and nothing more But then on the other hand we got the only other two We're kind of giving this forced choice or if you're going to you know explore the possibility of evil and what that would mean from for Yourself personally what that would mean Is there a moral imperative? How shall I lead my life kind of thing? Then you're kind of forced over to religious dogma and it says oh hold on buddy You had a spiritual experience. Let me jump right in the middle of that Let me be the intermediary between you and your spiritual experience and tell you exactly what it was See and I had all this great material And then you blew it because I found out collid you really are a muslim and I was like Whoa, I was going to do this whole thing on ed opperman who show you're on And say I love ed opperman. I've supported ed opperman on various times But he's a big tent fundamentalist christian that believes that there's this book That has answers to how we should live our life and talk about conspiracy Which has been my kind of thing lately is unwilling to explore the possibility that the Really the authors of the book were part of a social engineering project and using the well-worn play of Throughout history, but that the romans really perfected which is like Sure rocks and arrows are are great, but if I can control you by controlling And rescripting your religion all the better. So I don't know where Where to to me that kind of trumps the art history thing of getting to the fundamental reality of what we're talking about with something like Evil or satanic or you know, whatever these players are doing those questions are very interesting I mean, I think that the best art does deal with those topics and there is a philosophical dimension to What art engages with I mean even I think that marina brahm fish, you know Her work really does deal with those questions and it has the symbology of it. So powerful the people is because The performance art does have a ritual dimension to it which touches on these religious ideas You know, that's it's the intersection that creates the the interest So I think that yeah, absolutely, you're right and we do often deal with these ideas on the show I mean our show is very heavily inspired by these questions around my religious ontology and these core concepts But yeah, I think that you know, well for for one muslims I certainly don't necessarily disagree with what you said about about christianity It's a pretty common notion, but you know, of course there's well, wait a minute. Hold on Hold on full stop full stop if we're gonna go there I mean you guys are still looking at the book and saying the book has all the rules Whether it's the old testament or whether it's the current you're still saying Hey, it comes through this book And and to let's just be real for most people you just go for real Really call it that's you believe there's this book. There's this magic. That's true for most people I think that most people do believe something like that about a book and we don't believe that it's magic We believe that it's a prophetic revelation from a lot, but The fact is that there's all of sudden interpretations of of the book You know the interpretation of the book is a is something that happens in between the text itself You know, there's something and this is something that you know Islamic philosophers and Islamic thinkers like always acknowledge that something happens in between the in the act of reading You know the Quran is first existed verbally, you know, this is something that you know or and you know, it's reading and it's also Recitation, you know, it's something that when you recite the Quran, it's an act that it takes place with your entire Body and you know, there's a bit of a digression, but there's always an interpretive practice that happens And that's why within Islam, there's so many different Interpretations of the Quran if you go through history, you know, you even have Esoteric sex that interpret the Quran in completely different ways, you know People who read the words, you know, a lot of the Quran isn't cut and dry Some of it is and the Quran itself says that some verses are Straightforward and others are Mejes, you know, they're they're allegorical They're open to different sort of interpretations and the but it doesn't specify which are which so there's great Sort of a debate about this, you know, the the divinity of the Quran doesn't really Minimize the what you're talking about I think or what you're getting at the fact that there is a dimension of human interpretation You know, it's about the interaction with the book, you know, no book exists without the reader You know, it only exists in so far as we read it and engage with it and interpret it So to you know, the book can't just program us, you know It's not like it's a software that we insert into ourselves You know, maybe some Muslims would like it if that were the case, but that's not really just how these religions unfold Historically, you know, a fringe ad opman being a born again christian You know his interpretation of the bible even the role of the bible Is going to be different than from like a catholic or something like that So it just doesn't hold up to the kind of scrutiny and this isn't where I was planning on going with the show But I've now stacked up about 10 shows on just got I just got super interested in the the origins of Christianity because it really the further you dig in It has all the all the fingerprints of a psi op And the real giveaway is josephus, right josephus who is the quote-unquote roman historian He's not really a yes historian. He's a propaganda agent for the romans. But yeah, yeah, you can't get past Josephus and then just jump right into the Quran and say oh we can it all flows together If josephus is is a propaganda agent who is Trying to co-opt Judaism in favor of the roman empire first is what he does and I can show you exactly the passage in more of the jews Where he says hey you jews you got it wrong, you know, we you've been looking for the messiah born on our soil What you really should have been looking at is vespasian the emperor, you know Titus's father He's really so the point is not getting off into that whole thing which my audience has heard 50 times now. It's getting tired of He you you got to process that in this whole thing You can't say oh well then there's catholics and there's well There's protestants and they do it this way and the Mormons have taken no if the thing fails at that level at first century Rome Psi hopping religion that then spawns all those religions islam and judaism and Christianity and all its forms you got to get back and if it doesn't hold it doesn't hold you can't just Gloss over it with you know convenient. Well, it's all allegorical and you know the interpretation of it I believe that people can have a genuine spiritual experience because the science kind of is Overwhelming for example the near-death experience science You can't get past it it blows neurology our model of neurology out of the out of the water And every culture throughout time has said there is such a thing as this spiritual experience But I just don't think the book thing Really holds up Can I ask a question? Related to this so I if you believe and I'm I'm open to entertaining this idea you if you believe that Say christianity or judaism and all the Abrahamic tradition that followed from it was a sigh up Do you believe that it was one continuous group or Kind of order or something like that like who who would you pause it was behind this? I mean, I guess I could definitely see Vespasian and the Romans particularly from Josephus up to you know, Theodosius and Constantine Basically co-opting christianity and then you know cloaking themselves in it, you know in like the 300s But who would you say? You know if there is if the you know the the jewish texts going way way back if it was all a sigh Do you think it was the same sigh up? Or do you think it's different elites throughout history have weaponized spiritual ritual practice and religious dogma? I don't know but I would I think it's a fantastic question I would definitely definitely assume that it's the latter because if you really look at the possibility and you explore it And I'm like in Conversation email and interview conversation with leading, you know, biblical and religious scholars who most of them are telling me I'm full of shit, but some of them are saying Yeah, come on. That's really the only way to kind of process that but if you do process it what you wind up with is Josephus his first attempt at this Is to kind of co-op judaism, right? Because that's when he says vespasian is the emperor. Well, that has nothing to do with christianity It's it's wait. It's actually written after supposedly the historical jesus lived But it's really an attempt just to kind of quell so to to see it as this kind of continuous Psyop that's played over hundreds of years. I think is is is silly But to have it like we see today, you know, it's just it's a play in the playbook It's glorious steinem. You know people get tired of hearing me talk about that. It's glorious Signum cia Sticker in the women's movement. We'll figure out how to use it later. It's laurel canyon stick those guys up there on the stage We don't have to have a definitive plan on how we'll use it. Let's just make sure we're in that game kind of thing So if I had to guess That's how I think it it happens Hmm. Okay. Okay. Yeah, I think it's a phenomenon that does occur But I don't think that like yeah, I kind of agree with Demetrius always implication that I you know I think that's a very different thing to talk about the origins of Islam and the origins of christianity You know, I think that there is certainly a muslim particular christianity, you know We don't really follow the bible itself, you know, the new testament We don't believe is you know the actual ingeal generally speaking, you know, there might be some some difference But yeah, there's a it's a very different context. You know, it's just a years later Yeah, and just also to do what I I love to do on our podcast, which is like shoehorn Marxism and the conversations about religion and vice versa It doesn't remind me of a lot of the time kind of like the anthony Sutton like Hoover institute type a sort of conspiracy speculation about Carl Marx about Lenin about Trotsky how you know, I've even heard that, you know Stalin was was working for the Rothschilds and everything about the history of like the bolshevik revolution And 20th century socialism and the cold war and all that stuff was just like a hegelian dialectic ain't nothing new into the sun just the banker family sponsoring different factions and And and that that maybe in a similar way where it's where collard would push back on, you know Intimations of the quran was cynically like manufactured. I would too probably Yeah, maybe Trotsky, but for the most part that you know and Regardless of kind of like how The ideas that are, you know left behind in these books were kind of taken by other people and instrumentalized and What unfolded in the history after that? I don't know. Maybe it's a kind of thing where you need to have at least something that you Choose to put some kind of faith in if you're going to be erratically critically paranoid about everything else I don't know but Well, I guess where I'm coming from and and and then we can kind of ease off of this because terra firma is where I'm coming from so consciousness and You know like when we did you guys did this survey for me and you played along was awesome And I I have such a better sense for where you're coming from and I wouldn't have known Otherwise, so I appreciate that but where I started this investigation was really Kind of looking at it from a scientific standpoint does the kind of atheist intellectualized Kind of humanist Approach does it really make sense? That is your biological robot in a meaningless universe get over it You know get your credit card out and go to Black friday because that's all you have to live for life is meaningless and I find that that doesn't that isn't supportable Philosophically and it's really not supportable scientifically at all and I came to conclude I came to the conclusion after Way too long and way too many Interviews that that was an accidental that that was an engineered socially engineered message is to make you feel meaningless Make you feel you have no spiritual connection to anything more because you're easier to control and manipulate So that was my starting point, but then that also led me into How would we in a pre scientific using scientific methods and ideas? How would we explore this extended consciousness that everyone's talking about and that's why I think it's so interesting like Because I do want to get back onto the stuff that you Guys talk about because I'm totally sincere in what I said You guys have this deep dive and I want to learn from you because I already do I listen I learn from you every time I listen to your shows But one thing I always point out to people I point to mk ultra and I point to project stargate which The remote viewing project which a lot of people go wait wait remote viewing No remote viewing is mk ultra and if you go listen to hell put off and Russell targ They say when Sydney came to see us being Sydney Gottlieb, you know, he was the boss He was the guy Well the point of all that is remote viewing and so many of the other mk ultra programs Presuppose an extended consciousness that is beyond our bot and some of them presuppose Whatever that satanic whatever we're going to call it that there are these other beings in these extended realms that may be But hey, we got to go see let's go check them out kind of thing. So yeah, let's go hang out with with gin exactly Gin I love the I love I was going to share that last show, you know, bigfoot is a gin kind of thing I love that. Yeah, so the the point being I think I'm not poking at islam to like make some joke I'm poking at it because I think we fundamentally in order to understand a kino In order to understand the military industrial Complex which is completely wrapped around in separable from michael a kino I think we have to understand what there is there when it comes to these extended consciousness realms And the if we're if your definition of those extended consciousness realms is Wait, let me get my book out. Then I'm like, whoa I'm not so sure on that ed opperman Yeah Well, yeah, I think that well for one to me what you're talking about in terms of spiritual experience You know to me like the core and is a sort of a record of Like a profound spiritual moment in time, you know, and I think that that is why people Look to this and I think that That is in terms of trying to understand these type of things the spiritual dimension of human life I think part of the side you're talking about part of the attempt to sort of disconnect us from our The spiritual component of of human experience and to make us feel like what cpus is sloppy disks Part of that is you know to go back to the Topic of history part of that is the the disconnect from religious tradition from all the work and all the effort That has been poured into these subjects because whatever you want to say about them And yeah, like there are like flaws there may be blind spots in those traditions that we now Are better equipped to address uh lakunai, but there really is like a great wealth of information And the problems that we intercept now when we try to take approaches problem these topics They have been encountered before But people lack this historical when it's they lack these Appreciation for and this is true of religious people as well as people who aren't religious, you know They're I think that there's a general disconnect with the history of people's own traditions And I think that that is something that yeah, you definitely absolutely can Learn about these topics because it does belong to the same realm like if you're talking about satan You know you're talking about these beings talking about jinn things like that You know that is where a lot of the work out of the groundwork has been laid and a lot of there's a great continuity Between and people like a queen out, you know, they go back to those ideas You know a queen I might go back to the nazis or whatever and the nazis are going to you know Runic paradigms as a process by theosophy or whatever or like the you know Some racist society. Yeah idea of like the Vedas. Yeah, exactly But these occult traditions are obviously dealing with the their remixes or engagements with and oftentimes They're imagined as being some kind of old long standing subversive Underground movement within these religious traditions, you know, they're to Deal with like the intellectual history of religions like Christianity or Islam or yeah, whatever the other large religions You know that is part of like a study of these things because they do use the same terms like if You know, it's like demons, you know, it's the same thing as like john b summoning demons, you know They think right, right, but call it I guess what I'm proposing is that it's all a head fake It's all unnecessary because What we're really talking about is that there is this extended realm that can manifest itself In an unlimited number of ways and there's a malevolent part of that so to Identify it and label it this way that way, you know, oh, it's a baphomet in this case. No, that's lucifer No, that's you know is just kind of part of the problem of that Need to know that, you know, kind of need to kind of categorize it and that Spiritual disintermediation is not that hard anyone can go within Anyone can say that what I'm really trying to do is connect with my heart to love everyone and tell the truth We've got some fundamental simply simple ideas that, you know, I can read one passage from the Quran Right. I can throw the rest away. All's I need to do is try and be a good person So I would almost I just think we need to explore the possibility that the exact opposite of what you're saying is true is that these Disconnecting from religious traditions is exactly what we need to do and connecting directly with the spirituality if it exists Is within us and that's why I say, you know, you want to go study the Quran screw it I'll give you a better place. It's N D E R F Dot org So you can go search through three thousand people that have had a near-death experience and they're all over the board There's uh, muslims. There's christians. There's jews. There's people who are not religious and they're having a direct spiritual experience That to me sounds a lot more unfiltered Uncorrupted and it's just there. It's it's available to everyone and it's not just N D E Of course, you can do all sorts of different practices But the point is it's not hard to connect with god. God's always there the light the lights always on they're always home You know just go there. No, it's not hard to connect with god, but it's also not hard to connect with with satan You know, it's not as a kind of maybe the the the the person in the middle here between Religiosity or not religiosity. I would just say if we are presupposing A field of consciousness or you know existence or whatever beyond our kind of normative senses And consciousness after death and all these things and the and we're positing the existence of a spirit world Then I think actually it's not I don't think it's uh, it's too outlandish To lay down maybe some and maybe this is kind of a very just basic practical Utility that that organized religion religious traditions serve is to kind of give you Like a a little bit of like some guide rails If you're going to delve into that world because if you're doing it completely, it's just like, you know, we've done episodes Weegee boards and seances and teenagers trying to summon the devil, you know when they're teenagers It's not necessary. Don't try and summon the devil Just okay. Yeah, just go to the light love love everyone and you know, it's it's really isn't that complicated And religion has has orchestrated this idea that it that again It's intermediary that I need to be the intermediary. Don't you dare? You know, don't go out without your mask on don't you go? It's kind of a version of that It's like of course you need us to guide you through that realm No, it's it's all that the evidence and i'm stretching the word a little bit But again, if you look at the science of near-death experience and I've just interviewed two of the O.G. researchers Respected university of virginia dr. Bruce Grayson and then just ebb and alexandra just earlier in the week I mean, that's just solid science the best One of the top resuscitation experts in the world, you know, all of them line up and say hey these people are dead The experiences that they're having Post-death are unexplainable inside of our neurological model I like that base of information right off the bat because that mind trickery is out of is out of the is out of the question so when they come back consistently and say This is that it isn't that complicated and they come back consistently overwhelmingly and say You know, if you need if you need a religion if you want that if that's your thing great But there's no such thing as It's just not necessary what comes through again and again Hmm. I well, I feel that the for one I think there's always some mediation in terms of experience I think that the reason why we have these traditional accruals of knowledge and why there even is a practice of Spiritual techniques or technologies of the self things like prayer things like meditation Like why there are traditions of these things and why there are occult practices as well Is because people have attempted to do these things and of course, you know What you're saying really is also like a well well tested an old idea You know for terms of time or memorial people have been like all this, you know, all the systemization as a crude We always need to like break away and you'll go back to I mean, this is for instance in Islam You know, this is an idea as well, you know, there's the idea of Getting away from the exoteric or even there's an elitist component where they're like, you know The exoteric is for people who can't quite get it But you know, we're at a different level of the sheer You know, we're above all these things, but you know our brotherhood for whatever reason or this, you know association But I you know, I think that there for instance any of those experiences, you know What would you say to people who have experience hell like in any other experience or people who what about the whole like tricked by the light Narrative, you know, I was recently hearing about someone who had any other experience that was very very positive You know, and they had been sort of welcomed by these alien beings, you know, sort of in a gray alien mold You know again like like there is some consistency in these in these experiences But there's also a great deal of divergence, you know, some people see Jesus Some people see this, you know But anyway in this experience a person had seen these gray aliens and it was a loving peaceful experience But afterwards, you know, they went underwent regressing hypnosis And they were basically prompted by the hypnotists to only experience the truths of you know, what they had seen And then their memory changed it became a horrifying experience where in fact they were like, you know Violated and say, you know abused by these same beings, you know And that they're they came to view it as a screen memory of what they had experiences This is, you know, beautiful experience. They thought, oh, you know, this is a false memory that had been implanted And what really happened was what I now am remembering now I just feel like there's a lot of hairiness there, you know It could be the other way around it could be that in the experience of gnosis This new memory came to the fore and the original experience was the authentic one But there's a lot of muddiness there, you know It's very hard to really say but that is someone's experience of it, you know So I think that these there's a lot of hairiness in the near that experiences Beyond, you know, people do see hell people, you know, have very doctrinaire religious experiences, you know And some yeah, and I do I do wonder to what extent people like on that website You referenced come out of some kind of religious upbringing or tradition that I'm not saying that it's all a projection of Their imagination and it's fake or anything like that But that perhaps the imagery the symbolic imagery of whatever they're seeing because, you know, we're also talking about right I I'm presuming that You know that that whole thing about dmt being released as you die and all that I'm not again I'm not saying that that means that these experiences are fake or just hallucinations But I think in general with certainly with hallucinogen Drugs that the shape of the of the hallucinations or visions or even beings that you might meet Are sometimes to a certain extent mediated by your own kind of experience and imagination And it kind of would make sense even if it was authentic that maybe it would use symbols that have meaning to you So, you know bright light heaven, you know, everybody knows that iconography that was raised remotely christian You know, you go up. Oh, there's clouds is a bright light You hear a voice or you you're going to hell in a bucket and there's flames and it's hot and it's scary You know and things like that. So I mean it just it's very hairy It's like hard to fully to confidently fully disentangle those things So there's a lot to kind of process there I always use the term pre scientific because the we are not At a stage where we can start calling things scientific But to a certain extent, you know, as soon as we get past Materialistic science as soon as we get past the double slit experiment of 19. Oh, whatever We are post materialism the double slit experiment should really be called a consciousness experiment because it shows that Consciousness affects the photon pattern and that experiment is then directly replicated by a guy named dr. Dean Raiden who says we'll screw it these guys are arguing over the philosophy of it I'll set it up modern day in the last few years with a photon beam and a person That i'm going to put in there a meditator and say okay effect the photon beam and he You know gets a six sigma result that kind of once and for all Clears up any confusion about whether or not the observer effect is real I digress there to say that the consciousness Part is really where we start and and we have to realize that once you get into that then Materialistic science even though science we both agree or we all agree science is a method not a position statement It is still a kind of science as we know it is kind of a position statement that suggests that we could the world is out there We can measure the world and we can somewhat control the world and This post materialistic science Suggests well, that's not really the case and we can kind of shut up and calculate and pretend like The world is out there and we can build all these cool gadgets from it, but deep down we got to admit It's not really there, but switching gears for a minute back over to near-death experience Harry yes, but everything is harry and this is part of the process that you know We go through and that i admire about the way you do it you guys do it on subliminal jihad And it's what i try and do too, but it's like like the dmt thing great dmt is the actually what's What people are experiencing the near-death experience great trace that down sam harris is i think the guy said it Sam harris is full of shit. He just is. Oh, yeah, I agree. It's been studied. It's been studied so often and so Thoroughly by near-death experience researchers. These are phd level people. These are people who publish in peer reviewed journals like the lancet the one of the most Highly respected medical journal in the world and they've they've looked for dmt in the blood samples They've looked for other other chemicals Not there is a matter of fact it kind of shows just shows just the opposite But the important thing about that is sam harris is not only full of shit, but he's actually best understood as A dis info agent because if you look at the pushback that came when near-death experiences hit like I don't know 10 years ago. It really made it big with this guy dr Eben alexander who's a harvard neurosurgeon who published this book proof of heaven because Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I just had him on earlier in the week. He got An unbelievable cultural takedown and we covered it on this show, but an unbelievable intentional wildly ridiculous, you know, like sam harris said well, he's not qualified to talk on that because He he's not a neuroscientist Sam the guy taught at harvard medical school As a neurosurgeon that is such an absurd statement, but people, you know, people don't look past that they just go Oh, maybe he's not maybe he's not qualified. Maybe the doctor. Yeah, anyways, it's a cultural takedown I would agree with that. Yeah, with sam harris. Yeah, we were very anti sam harris podcast Yeah, and his whole interest in like meditation, of course He's like one of these arch like anti religious polemicists, but he's also like a new age or kind of I remember his remarks Like people don't understand me because they don't really know meditation. He's probably yeah, yeah, you know Jenner probably telling him what to say, you know, but anyway, yeah, yeah, and he's he came out of stanford, right? I don't know that that's interesting. His mom was a golden girls writer. I think. Oh, yeah, I'm sure that sounds that sounds definitely true Yeah, yeah Well, you know the other thing I was just going to throw out because I don't want to do the whole NDE lecture on you guys, but this stuff has been done So you do the hellish near-death experiences I've interviewed a couple of people who've had those kinds of experiences I interviewed pastor Howard storm who had one of the most horrific hellish experiences Definitely out there under reported, you know, people don't want to say they went to hell People that immediately look at him and go, yeah, what did you do to go to hell? But it's it's there. It has to be understood in this pre scientific How can we get their way? But the other thing I throw this out at you guys and then I'll leave it leave it go It's another super interesting guy Is dr. Gregory Shushant and what he did is a cross-culture cross-time analysis of near-death experience And he's an academic Oxford Connected guy. So he has to play it kind of very in a very narrow thing and has to be kind of this pseudo, you know, I Agnostic kind of thing, but it's it's just clear what he's saying is that over and over again and all these different religious traditions through like go to, you know Polynesia, you know 500 years ago accounts that and then go to Native Americans and go to Africans and take all these different accounts and you see the same thing people are having over Long periods of time having near-death experiences and his conclusion is that all these religions Uniformly are based on near-death I should say that after their description of the afterlife of all these religions across all these cultures Are based on near-death experiences and he even points out many cases where They had a certain set of beliefs about the afterlife and then Someone within their community had a near-death experience. They go, oh man, that that's it. That sounds like that's definitely it We believe you and their Beliefs changed based on that. So there's a lot There's a lot there and i'm not saying that's terra firma, but i'm saying We're never going to understand Michael Aquino Unless we're unless we're willing to take a couple of steps In that direction, you know, so I agree. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you have to you have to presuppose something Out there kind of beyond on the other side whatever you want to call it to be able to wrap your head I think around somebody like Aquino or this type of these type of mystery cults or whatnot, you know And just because I just because I follow one religion tradition doesn't mean that I believe that there's no knowledge of god Like in other cultures, you know, I think that there really is something. Yeah, again I believe that there's an ontological reality to this stuff and so that people are Describing similar things, you know the god that is, you know, uhura mazda or whatever the, you know High god of zoroastrianism like that is a way of talking about a lot, you know It's the same thing like in hinduism like all these avatars and all this proliferation of things, you know Maybe Krishna at one time was a prophet or something, you know, these are Representations or a way of interacting with something. I mean really like the whole idea of a perennialism or the idea There's something to all religions like the notion of Abrahamic religions or people of the book, you know, or people who have a semblance of a book Like that's an old islamic concept, you know in a way we have uh It's left to thank for that idea of this sort of inter compatibility It was something that was recognized early on it on in islamic history that there's uh, you know An access to this that other religions have as well and there there's a gradations of religious truth and that You know, of course in various traditions within islam, you know, there's the idea that are there's a Sort of the ideas of heaven and hell for instance like al-qasali who's like a very famous Muslim philosopher, you know very influential Muslim theologian who, you know, I don't know what your listenership is like He just gets bad rap in some circles But you know, he said that those who pray because they fear hell, you know, or because they desire Hories or you know the garden like they all get that but those of us who pray because we want to You know witness the face of god like we'll see the face of god and That will be more beautiful than a hurry by the same order of magnitude that a hurry is more beautiful than You know a woman here on earth, you know, which of course is like very misogynistic typical, you know Medieval person, but you get the point like that there is an idea of a gradations of experience like even within traditions themselves So yeah, I definitely think that you know, there is these are attempts to describe something that is simply out there And you know in terms of a queen. Oh, yeah, like, you know, he has a very different take on it Where he's like embracing the evil dimension although he may not necessarily see it that way You know, he has his own kind of flexible morality But he's dealing in the same sphere with the same concepts like he understands this basic language that is compatible among These different I don't think he is he's dealing in a realm one of deception Which is an intersection with your show in that I can say or do anything because do what thou wilt is the Is the ultimate truth, you know And I think that there's a Contrary point of view that I'm pointing to and that I think fundamentally you are too that says no There is a moral imperative to do good and not and and not do bad And to do bad and to be deceptive is out of a line with what for lack of a better term You know god spirit the light whatever it's out of sync. It's ignorance what the buddhas call ignorance of The true What's really going on Yes Yeah, I think that what I mean to say is that he's yeah using the same Terms he's acting within the same basic language like in invoking satan and aligning himself with that He's saying that he's in opposition to those things, but that is still, you know, it wasn't the same Like conceptual universe, you know, he's not saying that like something completely turned out his head Like yeah, he uses deceit and like maybe he uses these language these terms in deceitful ways But if you approach it like you can understand it through this these these language and these concepts, you know And he uses them himself, you know, yeah, like something that I actually did is I infiltrated the temple said, you know I've read like their internal documents. You know, I love that. Yeah, I love that So yeah, like and a lot of it is I mean they have their own reading lists and things like that And they'll refer you to you know, what they encourage their members to read like are things You know, they are people to read things written by christian theologians Like something that we talked about on our our episode about dogman that will be out soon You know the the book of werewolves, you know, they have a whole reading list about werewolves Of course a topic that's of great interest to to satanist in general But especially to those who have a sympathy with the ss or whatever, you know So, you know, he would recommend these religious texts about werewolves So these things the whole idea of we're going to take as our emblem the symbol of of evil in the christian tradition You know, we're going to commune with the the devil, you know, that is something that is based on It's the inversion playbook. It's sabotee and frankish, you know redemption through sin, right? It's yeah Let's do the because Hey, I can look right in my scriptures and it says He's gonna come the redemption will come when Everyone is good or everyone is bad. Well, we've tried everyone everyone being good. That ain't working Let's all just be bad because that'll bring about the second coming It's accelerationism for you know, it's like a spiritual accelerationism But it's always an inversion. It's always a deceptive inversion It's and it's such a low level simple play, but it does seem to attract a lot of people It and I see it seeping into the groundwater of our culture increasingly, which does alarm me And you know, I was raised Catholic, but I don't I wouldn't I would say my my sort of relationship with is like Ambivalent and ambiguous or whatever, but I would say I'm I'm like theistic So let's say I'm not an atheist But I noticed that and it's interesting you brought up Sam Harris because he embodied this kind of You know, we make fun of it a lot on the podcast people like bill marr and sam Harris, you know Talking about people being religious and how you know flying spaghetti monsters But it was always based on this kind of Kind of thinking that was very just anti it's basically denying The spiritual universe that that we've been discussing and it just doesn't exist. That's ridiculous shut up You're dumb. You're superstitious But now I think as that has kind of I feel like that's petering out a little bit in the culture that kind of Atheism or it's it having a rough ride because things are so insane and so chaotic And there's so much madness going on and maybe people are In some way a little more drawn to some kind of spiritual explanation But now you're seeing things where like the amount of satanic imagery and like pop culture We talk about it a lot and like music videos like demonic mk ultra satanic type imagery You know or like twerking on satan literally is now being held up as like this a really cool Just like even just kind of a bland like progressive cool thing But it's not very different in my mind from something like the satanic temple or the church of satan Embracing the sigil of baphomet, which is the like quintessential embodiment, you know symbol of evil in the christian tradition Which is the kind of the dominant majority tradition in you know western society So it's there's a sense of you know what you're doing You know what that represents and regardless of whether or not even if you even if you accept a totally atheistic view of the world That still represents something that is most most people would commonly agree Represents evil values You know the the person who is the opposite of jesus christ to again It's like even if you don't if you just think it's a fairy tale Jesus exemplified a lot of virtues that like the majority of humanity would think are positive virtues to model Whereas satan is all about deception lies power greed everything else And you know this is in america on top of that a place where we already have a bit of a spiritual problem with greed power genocide imperialism etc And business and just getting more more more you know down to you know It's like a root of our kind of capitalistic Protestant work ethic spirituality So you know throwing satan into the mix to turbo boost our consumerist hyper materialist kind of empty secular culture Seems you know it's like I I I stop and take notice when that happens and I think it's a play Yeah, it's a play and I think it has an impact even if people you know what you hear nowadays is like well You know the satanic temple just says that you know they they're just atheists They're just doing it to rile up the christians But you know I just kind of fundamentally don't Accept that as like an explanation. I mean sure maybe if that if that's what you think it is but You're still using you're weaponizing a symbol that most people believe represents evil It's like same thing with like flying a swastika or an ss banner, you know to say oh, I just think it looks cool It doesn't really mean I'm a nazi, you know Right or I'm doing it ironically, you know, yeah I think at this part of the whole you know the old cliche about like the great sugar devil over plate is in some ways True, you know, it speaks to I think the larger point of like the literacy about symbols and the You know illiteracy about different understandings of these figures of religious ideas and also of history I think that you know, for instance, you mentioned that's working on the devil You know, this is a huge flashpoint our culture a huge controversy over Lil Nas X's video of what the devil in it and you know, this is a huge thing where people were upset at the suggestion of Giving state in the lap dance and things like that and you know other people were saying like how You know, can you be upset? You know, this is all symbology This is all metaphor and something a common point that people made a vis-a-vis the video was that well, you know Look at the ending, you know, Lil Nas X actually he's using his sexuality to seduce the devil But in the end he kills the devil and then he puts a devil's horns on himself So really he's killing satan. So isn't that good and it's like well, you know If you think about what these people like Michael Aquino for instance What they really believe like that actually matches up perfectly With their ideas about how their relationship with these entities work, you know, they of course No one is ever going to do like no one's ever going to sign on to like the christian idea of A deal with the devil like that people will warn you about, you know Like what the devil came to you and said you're going to be my slave and you're going to do my will and then you're going to burn forever You know, no one would take that deal probably, you know, it's because they think that they have a loophole They always have a way out, you know, and oftentimes it's because they can ascend themselves They can become, you know, the dark prince or, you know, the god unto themselves That's exactly what satanism teaches like which is, you know There's a Vogue or more secularized version of that in the church of satan and an even further more Secularized version of that in the the satanic temple where you have the idea that there, you know, you can yourself It's all about the the grand judgment of the self, you know the ascension of the self the godhood of the becoming a god Yeah, exactly. They think that they're they're not going to be accountable because They will, you know, find a loophole that they will become they will become set set as within that Yeah, yeah, and we're on the verge of this kind of new frontier where I think even people like sam haras have talked about You know the the the rumblings around transhumanism Are have been picking up for, you know, a couple decades now and clearly these psychos like like jeffrey eppstein and his best friend bill gates Are pretty interested in life extension technologies and okay full pause because you guys dropped a truth bomb on me And uh, we got it jeffrey eppstein. What's that really all about jeffrey eppstein gifted children? Well, we're still looking into that that was uh, that that was a lead that our our buddy jimmy fallon gong Discovered and yeah, we we talked about that with him. I think we're still digging into it because we're still finding more and more Yeah, this is a big Yeah, and interesting very interesting angle on this is jeffrey eppstein's life as a gifted child You know and jimmy what he did was draw like a very interesting connection between him And figures like jacks are fahty and what least driver who you actually had in your show I mean what we strivers actual life, you know It's a bit muddy like one doesn't quite know but the theme in his Pudatively autobiographical work of like a secret school Involving communion with et entities and the description by jacks are fahty and daniel schihan Of getting this call on the godphone and what we did in our episode dealing with this topic with jimmy was we kind of brought this idea through the discussion of this sort of idea of gifted children jeffrey eppstein's past and you know being involved in gifted children programs and Walter brine, you know, who's another big figure in the development of those programs the united states and Walter brine who is a convicted pedophile at the same time. Yeah Coop under a mambla and a poster child too has the look hey, but you guys mentioned uh striber wittly striber Did did you know about his gifted children participation that mkltra program when he was like seven or nine years old? Yeah, well in his book. He describes a secret school. You know, in fact, it's more according to him You know, it's uh, it's more than that, you know, it's not only that he was part of like a government secret school program It's that he you know, of course later in life with his favorite maintains that he was a victim of alien abduction repeatedly and Hold on because I interviewed him I interviewed him on this and we specifically talked about Because I was very interested in the mkltra program And you guys are so up to speed on this and we can go there and I want to go there But people don't understand how extensive it was, you know, people go Ted Kaczynski unabomber ha ha ha. No, that's just the It's another gift a child if you think about it, uh, exactly he went there at 16 So I don't think it was exactly that he got picked to go into that study And so I'm totally down with what you guys were saying and Henry Murray, you know Is the dr. Henry Murray at at harvard, you know picks out a guy like Ted Kaczynski It is there's absolutely Completely solid evidence that they're doing this all over the place and they're doing it and then I interviewed another guy And I won't even mention his name, but he's a podcaster and he tells me, you know I'm telling the story about wittly striber and goes. Yeah when I was in kindergarten I was a gift to chopper. I'm like a whoa stop. Tell me he goes really weirdest thing The weirdest thing we just went in this room and all day we just memorized cards We just tried to memorize these cards. Yeah, it's like we will never know the extent to which these guys Did these programs some of which sound incredibly benign like that one and the one that wittly was in And you know, I probably did have to do with psychic abilities That probably what by memorizing cards event that they tried to predict the shape on cards dot seeing them, you know Maybe And you could get there right you could get there a whole bunch of different ways college Right you could just have people memorize information and that could be a pre screening to whether they go to the next thing But back to wittly because when I interviewed wittly, I asked him specifically about this And you can hear his voice and you hear him him struggling with this And he struggled with it a great deal in terms of trying to resolve it back in his life But the full story is he's like, I don't know Nine years old and his dad is in military intelligence, by the way And they come knocking on the door and uh, they say, hey, you know, we've got a special program for gifted children it's down at the air force base here in san antonio and Wittly like barely remembers it, but he remembers going in a faraday cage He remembers them mutilating animals and doing this other stuff. He doesn't remember all of it But what he remembers are a couple things after that Mom insisted that he get dressed up in his sunday morning to go in his sunday best to go to school and he was like Went up on the roof to try and hide to get away from these guys And he suggested that the only way he got out of it is that he got quote unquote sick and got sent to the hospital Probably, you know, your body reacts to that because I got to get it find a way out of here He goes to the hospital and his mother comes there and they eventually pull him out of the program But he says in trying to recollect what really happened because I wittly Is trying to understand this I get the sense that he is an honest broker. He just has this fragmented shattered Dissociative identity created Memory of what's going on, but he said look the fucking kid across the street I know he was there with me when that kid came back. He was shattered. He never left the house He was 50 years old. He had never left the house virtually and died, you know in his room And I talked to another kid Down the street who they put him they went to put him in the program and the parents said hey, wait a minute This doesn't sound right. We're not doing it But he was able to confirm through talking to some of his other childhood friends that it wasn't made up That there definitely was such a program and you know, it's Don't look so good No, it's a really kind of I think it's almost kind of a conceptual breakthrough Across the board with a lot of conspiracy topics that we've covered this idea Like we I just never really thought about the gifted children program Even though we had talked all about you know the rumored project monarch and you know the fritz springmeyer stuff about Oh, you got to do these terrible things to like small children before they're six to induce You know dissociative identity disorder We talked about hypnotism and george ester brooks talking about the importance and milton erickson talking about the importance of How you can hypnotically induce multiple personalities, but then the gifted child thing was like Oh my god, and then when I started thinking back in it We had already done some digging into other characters that actually do have this You know, it's not just a sarfati and epsi and we're still, you know, nailing it down But michael acuino, for example, I don't know if he Absolutely the child but his mother was tell that story was an incredible tell that story guys Tell that story about about his mother and about his grandfather and about his whole family because it's another one of these It does the total flip and you're like, oh my god. I hate this guy. I hate this guy. Oh my god I feel so sorry for this guy Yeah, then he realized that he had to have been born into something weird because okay So just this is stuff that we dug up when we were researching our very first acuino episodes like number three and four and What I was able to find mostly through amazon book descriptions that acuino himself had published And including a book of his mom's poetry and a bunch of other stuff Yeah, pegasus and pin feathers. Yeah, pegasus and pin feathers I discovered that you know, his mother betty who went by betty ford acuino Was a kind of a girl from a well-off fan a well-off san francisco family And I also I grew up in the san francisco bay area. So all this like hits close like I I'm fascinated by I never understood kind of this world of like old san francisco Like robber baron society and stuff and but I I realized and I never thought that acuino would be kind of grew up in the center of it But basically his mother was born in san francisco beginning of the century and she was identified at a young age as being an extremely gifted child prodigy And so her parents Sent her to stanford university as part of an experimental gifted child Kind of both a study and a program And it was run by a psychologist named dr. Lewis termin who was an extremely prominent Psychologists in the early 20th century also one of the most prominent eugenicists in the united states at that time Like a fervent eugenicist and supported california's like forced sterilization program And all of his work with yeah, all of his work with gifted children was inflected heavily by his interest in this and trying to understand You know, which races are more intelligent and things like that. Yeah exactly exactly So she you know, she went through this program then kind of like ted gazinski, you know I think at 15 or 16 she enrolled in stanford and then graduated and then after she left stanford I believe this was in the early 1930s. She spent a number of years in Nazi germany studying sculpture with a famous sculptor named george koba and a quinoe in some Google groups threads or usenet threads back in the day told some very weird stories about how his grandmother and his mother were In a in a restaurant in berlin one time in the 30s and 30s and there is there was a boisterous group of snappily dressed uniformed men You know causing a ruckus and his grandmother who is a very, you know, san francisco grandam got up and told them To cut it out in the head of the table, you know, apologize profusely and turned out it was adab hitler And you know, he just thought that was a funny story But grandma didn't recognize him because she she found politics vulgar. Yeah, he I I still I believe that his grandmother's name was was her maiden name was sophie johnson Now there was a sophie johnson vanderbilt for the 19th century I don't know if she was named kind of in reference to that or I don't know her Aquino called her a a grandam of the stanford crocker era of san francisco But yet I can't find I can't trace her family But anyways, so, you know, she was in nazi germany throughout most of the 1930s There were some rumors that she had an affair with an ss officer at one point queen. I was in 1934 Yeah, a queen's mother and then the the other thing I discovered Well, there's two things about his grandfather who was a surgeon a prominent surgeon dr. Campbell ford that Really made my head spin that I found, you know on newspapers.com the first one was from I believe those from the san francisco examiner in 1894 and it was an article about how a prominent doctor dr. Campbell ford michael equino's grandfather had been arrested in san francisco for Allegedly attempting to steal a baby Like he was running around with a baby that wasn't his That's normal really weird. Yeah, it was like so because especially because then if you know about the prosidio abuse scandal Yeah, his story was like a random person just like dropped the baby in his lap or something Right, like he was just like someone came up to me and like gave me this baby and I was like Yeah, it was like something like a saloon owner gave him a baby Maybe there's an implication that it was sort of somebody had a baby out of weblock And then they just they showed they just gave it to him for some reason to go and give it to Foundling place or an orphanage But he had hired like a stagecoach, you know a buggy, you know a cabbie Whatever to like ride him around san francisco with this baby And the cabbie's story contradicted the grandfather's story a Campbell ford's story You know, Campbell ford said that he was attending to the birth in a saloon of this baby And then like they gave him the baby and he went and tried to find it a home But the the cabbie said that he just hired him They pulled up through his saloon somebody walked out and just handed him a baby And then he's like go around town and started going to different places around town Apparently try I don't know. It's like he was trying to sell it or something It was very it very bizarre and that was like on the front page of this area This is a good examiner in 1894 and then the other big thing about Campbell ford Who was I think in three different frame of freemasonic lodges by the way Including a night's templar commandery the mount mariah lodge number 44 He died in 1934 by slitting his own throat with a straight razor And some newspapers it was reported actually in a bunch of different newspapers That some of them implied that it was kind of an accident while he was shaving Other one said a presumed suicide And then other ones noted ironically that Dr. Ford was somewhat famous in the medical community for inventing a type of suture A type of suture known as the ford stitch. So there's almost I think it's called pointed out in that episode There's like a weird like satanic irony of the doctor who invented this famous stitch ends up slicing his own throat open And by the way in the the big spooky house on leavenworth street in san francisco That michael equino would end up living in in the 1980s that he both grew up in And ended up inheriting until he died in 2019 and also that that is the house where The children who accused him in persidio said they were taken to which had all these weird rooms That's where they you know, that's where the police raided his home was that exact same home Where his grandfather slit his own throat in 1934 So and demetri just to add maybe you want to add to that I mean, we have to say, you know, alleged and this and that but anyone who just does a kind of cursory examination of the evidence against him For pedophilia and his wife of being part of it. It's so overwhelming. And I mean It's just it's overwhelming evidence. I mean he did all that stuff I would agree. Yeah, I would agree. And then the fact that the daycare center of the persidio was burnt down Twice or there were two attempts to burn it down While this kind of process was while this trial process was was playing itself out And then the second time I believe that when they successfully burned it down was on the night of the autumnal equinox So, you know, I mean kind of interesting and then, you know, all these things were dropped But also the army refused. I remember finding A kind of a lawsuit judgment or something. I think it was like from the army's, you know, legal division basically Refusing Aquino's request to completely expunge the persidio stuff from his record, which is interesting So the u.s. Army itself Kind of said, you know, they ended up saying that well Oh, there's not evidence. Lieutenant Colonel Aquino was cleared But then Aquino in his classic litigious way went and it's like I want every single reference to You know any kind of investigation against me blah, blah, blah And everything like that to be completely like wiped off the record and I remember in that summary they said well We're not going to do it because some of your like your alibis were Yeah, not corroboratable or convincing. I think what they literally said not convincing So, you know, you know the army, of course, they're going to cover up for him And you know, god knows how deep that goes, but it did seem to kind of stop his career I don't know if he would have gone on Maybe he's kind of like Jim Shannon and some of these other kind of weird Men who stare at goats kind of army officers where they would top out at colonel But, you know, he also was going to like, you know All these like national defense colleges and stuff he was working on He was you know an attaché for nato in the early 80s at like the absolute peak of You know the cold war, you know, uh, star wars kind of drama going on and was, you know Doing ss dagger rituals and Himmler's castle, right? So the other the only other thing to cover that I'd love for you to cover if you can to kind of wrap up the And it's a queen. Oh, is that how we say it? So tie for people back because this is like For a lot of us. This is the most super scary part of it is the legitimacy he has We inside the military community as a sought-after expert like oh, don't worry about all of that He can help us work on this Mind control kind of stuff that we're really interested in and so grab him. Let's use him Yeah, he was like a Psyop. He was like the Psyop person, you know He wrote for like in the recent documentary that HBO put out about QAnon You know, they highlighted Jean-Paul Bellamy for his, you know, work on psyopsis and they were kind of trying to catch him to that But they glossed over, you know, Aquino's authorship of the mind war memo for him This famous white paper that Aquino wrote which the concept of mind war which he would develop later on You know, it has to do basically with the idea of sort of convincing your enemy to work with you to fight The mind war against the mutually shared problem one of the one of my favorite anecdotes about Michael Aquino Is that he wrote like an alternate history novel where the Nazis instead of like committing a genocide They just use mind war to peacefully win world war two, you know, so it's all about like We break the sword. Yeah, it's probably break the sword But yeah, he what he cut his teeth in vietnam I mean doing this very very spooky operation called wandering soul He developed these recordings known as ghost tape number 10 And you can you listen to online is the the most famous one and ghost tape number 10 And basically what they would do is they would play out of helicopters or from backpacks of soldiers these sort of eerie Sounds and and wailings, you know, and the idea was to sort of play off the and there were many things like this You know, we talked in our episode on mothman about the oswang related a psyopsis that took place in the philippines At landstail, yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, basically the the the idea of this was to sort of suggest and to play off What they imagined is being the vietnamese belief in wandering ghosts and spirits and the idea that if you Died far away from your homeland that you would be doomed to wander the earth forever So they would play these spooky whales with this man kind of canting in vietnamese about how he died far away from his home And you know, give up brothers, you know, go home. It's not too late. You know, if you die Fighting the americans, you know, you will like, you know, you'll end up being tortured in hell by demons Well, you know, I just you know moaning apparently, you know What often happened was that people hearing this would just get infuriated and and return fire But you know and reveal their position. Yeah, exactly would often reveal their positions So I guess maybe it was a qualified success Isn't that the really tricky part of it though that that is so hard to process is like How do we really feel about that, you know, because on the first love you go Oh my god, he's horrible, listen that and then you like wait a minute How do I really feel about that in a quote-unquote war situation as if that was You know, some kind of war some kind of defense the united states or but we could get in that But it's like we do have this different kind of sensibility that that there are situations where we have to win And we're going to kind of make that moral High level decision and then how we implement it. We'll really give ourselves a lot of leeway So isn't that really another place? We're kind of we're struggling with terra firma where the rubber meets the road kind of thing I mean, how do don't we don't we want to do don't we want to hire allister crowley to do to see if he can Influence the nazis to fly over and we can yeah. Yeah capture No, I mean they did do that, right Bad astrological readings or something like that like didn't he feed hitler's astrologer bad readings or something like that? That is a rumor, but yeah, I mean they're like maybe, you know There's all these remits of like occult circles operating like within the intelligence world and war war two but I mean the vietnam war I think to be true now What a group is not like a moral war to begin with on the part of the united states So like I also feel that yes these this is all part of a larger complex Which is very cynical and often, you know, again like just infuriating and insulting to the people who are targeted by it Which is to sort of it says that same sort of sneering It's very Sam Harris have a sneering thing where it's like oh we can manipulate these savages beliefs, you know We can you know Invade their their psyches and and use their their views against them and in this way, you know Yeah, I mean also it it goes hand in hand with the the violence of the war even to bring it up to the 80s to the to Michael queen is very odd performances on Oprah and the raldo show when he went on to you know Basically defend the temple of set and satanic practices and stuff during the height of the so-called satanic panic You could almost see a parallel between operation wandering soul and what he was doing there Because he was going on tv in such a provocative way where it's like he knew what he was doing He knew he was going to basically trigger all the kind of conservative christian types that were Being terrified by what opera and raldo and all these other people were saying about how there's these evil cults But then he was also sitting there and going like that is actually not true I am you know, I might have devil eyebrows and have this like, you know Like very witchy wife and stuff and seem very sinister But you know, actually there's nothing to see here It almost like it in in the sense of the real goal of the recording of wandering soul Was to get the the vietcong soldiers to to get angry and reveal their position and expose themselves And it was it was all about eliciting a psychological reaction That was actually not Exactly what the kind of a sensible goal of of the operate of the syop You know the goal was to pray upon their religious superstitions But what it really was more is to get them To show themselves and you know, basically rile them up and so much of syops You can see it today with like with qanon and all that other stuff There are things that are so tailor-made To almost just like get people fired up and crazy and then react towards something And often it's done in a kind of very Sophisticated way where you know, I think there were levels to like what michael equino Was doing both in the phoenix program whatever in vietnam and going on You know tv in the 80s trying to defend himself But doing it in this way where it's like look how much of a black magician i am You know, I think that's totally brilliant And you guys are to be congratulated for kind of seeing that because I remember when you mentioned it And it is such a great insight is that if I can get you to emotionally engage with me and i'm controlling The topic then i'm going to win, you know, it's like i'm going to drag you into the gutter And we're going to both get dirty but at the end of the day We're going to look like equals in some way and and that just When i'm in such an adverse position that adversarial position that can do nothing but help me It's interesting that you mentioned that because that's what his mother would go on to do when she found it or helped to found a kpfa the radio station, which had a I was just gonna say that Very similar to their sort of framing where they would always they would have people of all different beliefs on but They it would always end up affirming whatever their views were because they would be setting the questions You know so the debate could be about whatever it could have like, you know the john birch society it could have like malice You know debating each other But ultimately at the end of the day kpfa would be deciding the terms of the date and so they would always win the epistemological battle Yeah, and you know, they were committed to a pacifism which of course sounds good But you know it came out of the milieu of like not wanting to fight world war two So there was definitely like a complex element in in that type of pacifism Yeah, maybe his mother represented That's that's the other thing that that we didn't get we you know, we've done further research We have an episode on kpfa Hopefully coming out in the next week or so on on the patreon feed But we did some deeper diving into that and that was something that really jumped out when I was researching Aquino's mom last year is that he claimed that she was instrumental she basically co-founded the pacifica foundation and kpfa radio and I mean, are you are you familiar with pacifica radio kpfa kpfk? I'm not but I can only imagine Yeah, I mean, I mean have you ever seen democracy now? Of course goodman. Yeah, but that's that's pacifica That's pacifica radio and that's kind of like their flagship But they were one of the first listener supported alternative public radio stations started in berkeley in the late 1940s and then it expanded to Los angeles and then new york and it's still around today in kind of various forms and seeing that michael aquino's mother because it you know, I grew up in the bay area and I remember kpfa is a very granola hippie Lefty pacifist kind of radio station like it. It's totally identified with like the 60s california kind of sort of counterculture And is definitely situated on the left, you know, and so that's always what I knew about it kind of growing up And yeah, if you watch, you know democracy now, oh, they're talking about the green party And you know, they're criticizing the u.s for doing you know, bombing people overseas and things like that But the fact that aquino's mother Was right there at the very beginning of it and like collard said was in this milieu of pacifist Now the ones that I think of who is it louis hill was the main founder He was the nephew of frank phillips who was uh an oil baron who you know If you know conico phillips the oil company or phillips 66, you know the gas stations Yeah, that's he's the nephew of that guy. So these guys come from kind of high bourgeoisie Rob like western robber baron kind of background and stuff and so I think he met aquino's mom at stanford and then, you know He was a conscientious objector in world war two. I wouldn't say I don't I generally think he really did believe in pacifism And like wasn't a secret nazi sympathizer But aquino's mom on the other hand, she spent the bulk of the 1930s in nazi germany And didn't really ever nothing we found indicates that she had too many bad things to say about it And then she has this son who becomes goes into the military and becomes a sci-op guy requests to go to vietnam and probably loved being involved in the phoenix program Joins a church of satan the temple of set his mom joined the temple of set after he founded it And and so it really made our head spin of like how like because she was involved She had a radio show on kpfa for years like a book report He claims that she was the first one to introduce The novel the boris bastard act novel dr. Javago to american audiences after it was translated into english And you know you can go on caa.gov and see that the whole operation around dr. Javago was like The cia was heavily invested in both popularizing it in the west and getting Prince of it done in europe in russian to smuggle back into the soviet union So it was like a cold war sci-op and the queen says she was the first one to do a review of it Like right when it was published and quote-unquote introduce it to american audiences So there's that but it's like, you know, she's hanging out with all these lefty hippie bay area people and then She didn't she seemed to be totally cool with her son Joining the military at the height of the vietnam war and go like you know what I mean like there's something off there It doesn't make any sense. Now, of course kpf. They also started getting money from the ford foundation No relation by the way, betty ford. She's not one of those fords But the ford foundation I think it might have been under the control of mc george bundy You know in a bunch and maybe a richard bissel, you know guys who are involved in bay of pigs and You know architects of the vietnam war itself We're funding this lefty alternative radio station in the bay area and that's something, you know We've talked about in a lot of the context like the covert funding like you said with gloria steinham and cia Like the funding of the counterculture Like not just the subversion of it, but sometimes creating entities out of whole cloth or You know, basically sponsoring things that are so heavily infiltrated that they end up serving the kind of overall ideological purposes of kind of the The us empire if you will in its like kind of cold war Objectives and oftentimes is a very subtle, you know, it's not like, you know They did have john birch society people and malice and sometimes communists on but they're you know The way it was framed was in such a way that I assume if it was really Politically or epistemologically threatening to the us ruling class and the ford foundation wouldn't have given it millions of dollars You know, I mean, is that a safe assumption? Yeah, they also funded, uh, kenneth anger The satanic dappler, but yeah, and you know people sometimes will say like, oh, you know, what is the significance of doing genealogy? You know, everyone has like a suspicious family. I mean a queen of himself is suspicious So you don't really even need to go to his family But you know, it does bear mentioning that he would characterize himself, you know in these terms I remember one of my Favorite things that he's he said that someone else pointed out to us was that he described himself as being born with, you know A whirl of a swastika of hair on his chest, you know, and his eyebrows Oh my god naturally tilts it up in this satanic way, you know And I incidentally I was born, you know only nine months after a certain ritual was performed, you know by Yeah, he basically depicted himself as being like a moon child produced by like the Babylon working or Yeah, sort of an antichrist ritual. So, you know the idea of Implicating his mother in office is something that reverting dates with him, you know Yes, and also just to throw in we also found I think in an interview You know, it was kind of not a lot about her religion or you know What kind of church her faith she belonged to except for of course that she joined the temple of set in the 70s But before that he did mention that when she ran off and kind of got married to Aquino's, you know putative father a Michael Aquino senior Right at the end of I think right at the end of world war two That they needed to find a church to go get married in and she didn't belong to a church Which I think in early 20th century america is interesting in and of itself But then she finally picked a sweden borgian church because its doctrines were the least repulsive to her And so, you know, I I'm still looking more into sweden borgian stuff But that is real And a huge free masonic connection to the history of sweden borgianism So yeah, that is that stuck out to me as an interesting choice when you mentioned it way back when and I think that might not have been just random Like I think maybe she was a sweden borgian Maybe or at least had an affinity with them and they have an affinity, you know Of the doctrines they have like, you know that sweden borgianism came out originally out of sort of like a free masonic Millio or was very connected with the revival and a free masonry. But yeah, it is it's very it's very interesting connection There's one topic I really wanted to dive into there's like Multiple multiple connections with the work that you've done again check out subliminal jihad And you're kind of getting a sense for how these guys go at it and the connections that they'll Link that you you never knew were there and you know, what was that? the swastika on my chest Yeah, the world. Yeah, he said that the buddha and also I think curly had it the swastika the world swastika of hair on his chest. Yeah But the topic the topic I wanted to try and wade into and we won't really have time to cover it Hardly at all but is the ufo et thing and Maybe one way to get there is Danny sheen because I just interviewed Ralph bloomfall who wrote a book autobiography of john mac you guys know john mac is right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I listened to a little bit Yeah, I remember reading his book way way back in high school Yeah, because he was the preeminent like, you know abduction guy We know had the credentials. You know the sir. Yeah, exactly. He's the guy who had the credentials. So, you know That there had been this thing where Abduction was all in the air and bud hopkins and david jacob's are really the guy who are making guys who are making all the noise about abduction and then John mac who is superstar? Harvard Psychiatrist, I mean like elite elite Pulitzer prize winner But thinks he can do anything. So he just kind of Is rubbing shoulders with bud hopkins because he's art connection collared He's kind of an esteemed artist in Manhattan But hopkins is so he's like, hey, let's go see what this guy's up to. I think it's all bullshit But then he becomes. Oh my god. If this is real, I have to know and i'm john mac I can know anything and he starts interviewing people And he says this is real. He says as All my training as a psychiatrist leads me to believe that this is real they're not hallucinating and that's what i'm trained to do. That's what I do I tell if people are having hallucinations or delusions or anything like that. They're people. It's not cultural There's I have a two-year-old that says she saw the thing come in the room and this and that I have people who are Paraplegic who can't move who have marks on their body Everything my training and my common sense tells me that these accounts are real, right? So that is who john mac is and he gets in all sorts of trouble at harvard, which again, he's kind of a naive guy Which is surprising, but he kind of has this You know, he's kind of a rich kid a trust fund Jewish elitist east coast kind of and he's kind of naive and he just thinks oh, well, this will be great and then harvard is gonna Sack him, you know and they call him in for this kind of Inquisition kind of thing and he's Stumbles out of it and he doesn't know what he does He doesn't know what to do and he's like calling up wittly streiber and he goes hey, man I think this is over, you know, I could lose everything And who comes to the rescue? dany sheen dany sheen comes and he represents him dany sheen along with who you guys you know always say dany sheen jesuit The christic institute was his thing that he founded. Yes But he was originally like doing a ron contra defense, you know defending a ron contra Accuser the whistleblowers, but he kind of blew it up by getting mired and like larushi stuff, you know And you guys haven't you guys have an incredible show on that that I I I can't quite process that all the way Like I don't know because that could flip either way and sheen shows up in a bunch of other different places But it is interesting and I actually asked, you know Ralph blumenthal the guy who wrote the book and he's a veteran new york times Journalist, but there's another quick story. I want to say about blumenthal, but Back to back to mac for a minute His co-attorney on this is the guy from spotlight the guy who I forget his name now But the guy who defends a broader McLeish He's the guy who prosecuted the priests in boston. Yes. Yes. It is. Yeah, so so that's what a strange mix there to have to have Do you want it? I don't know. I don't know if you're aware of this. Do you want to Do you want it to get even weirder because I'm reading right now that He was supported john mack was financially or his nonprofit was supported for four years at a cost of $250,000 per year by the reincarnated emperor of atlantis laurence rockafell Right. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, he was told I guess during allegedly We've heard that he was told at assilent institute by the nine The sort of channeled entities who ran assilent for a while You know that he was a reincarnation of an emperor of atlantis So that's why we refer to nelson rockabeller by by that title But yeah, it's you know, this is something that's very interesting to me, you know, not to I know I haven't wasn't to your show with lily streamer I'm interested to do so but It's something that was very interesting to me and sort of reading more about him Because of the connection that jimmy drew between him and jack sarfadia and an epstein that hadn't necessarily occurred to me before You know, his work goes in very interesting directions You know the idea of the connection between The aliens and the dead, you know, of course, there's this gifted children theme where there's you know from childhood You know, there's this connection with them and then blossoms in later life and something that he brought out in later works Is that you know the there's some connection between them and death, you know that we're being brought up for death I guess it's connected in a way with the nba thing and some of the skepticism It connects only with the skeptical part and that's why I think we need to be suspicious of it because it has So I don't know like I we can't decide definitively But it has a lot of the fingerprints of a of a sci-op too, you know Is that I'm gonna co-op that and I'm gonna kind of control that message Narratives of it one is that like it's all an alien trick and the other one is that the aliens are like real Some seer peaceful representatives of you know, whatever awaits us upon death, you know, there's different spins on it I wouldn't necessarily break it down like that because Look as soon as we contemplate an extraterrestrial non-human intelligence in these extended realms Well, we can attach anything to it We can say, you know, they're in cahoots with the military industrial complex and you know They're doing this or that it's my lab or that it's space brothers or that they came and met with Eisenhower and they gave him a choice Do you want to be the good? And he chose you can go to so again, where's terra firma, you know, and so to me John Mack is is partly terra firma, you know, it's not like If and that was an interesting conversation I had with blumenthal like so like if you want to step over john mack's work You can do that But then what you enter into is that okay Our reality that we're talking to on this little zoom call is a non-reality So we are talking from a prejudicially Stupider non-reality Contemplating the greater reality because there's no other way to process what what john mack is saying because john mack After a while, he kind of comes around to the idea of kind of a Jacques valet-ish kind of Hey, maybe I don't see the full picture Yeah, and you know the the thing I always bring up about Jacques valet is that because I interviewed Jacques valet You know Jacques valet says those things, but they are misinterpreted by most people and I actually asked him this in his interview It's not a it's not an either and it's a both thing And it's a guy who still walks around with a piece of slag in his pocket From a quote unquote alien spaceship that when you look at it under An electron microscope has characteristics that we are unable to Create or engineer on this planet. So and if you go, you know, not to kind of do the whole but The other person I interviewed that I think I always think is like a forgotten piece of this Is like this woman from montana state university anthropologist her name is dr Artie six killer clark native american scholar, but she went interviewed all these Native americans and then she started interviewing Indigenous people around the world and they're like, yeah star people they come from the stars We've known it all along. Here's what it is and they even have contemporary Encounters with them, but they also have all these Ones from their tradition and stuff like that. So again to step over that data and say, oh, well, you know We now understand or we now are contemplating this extended realm where a kino is doing Dissociative identity disorder and connecting with evil spirits. So Wrap it up. There it is. There's et. It's like Fuck now. Don't look that way to me. It looks like et is definitely in play and All the rest of that stuff is in play and if anything We're just sitting over here in our tiny little confine of this brain that's processing this consciousness That's flowing through us and we're looking through the pinhole So you're saying basically that you do think that they come from that there's aliens from another planet In outer space. I mean best evidence best evidence gets you there The best evidence is going to be cross culture cross time you go cross culture cross time It's it's all over the place and they they go to the dogan They don't even in in africa an ancient tribe. They don't even have a language They say yeah, there it is pilates and by the way, you know for the last hundreds of years They've told us there's a twin star there and not until you know, 20 years later when we have the micro when we have the telescope Capability after the first anthropologist gets there. They let them go. Oh my god. There is a twin star there. You know, I mean it's Yeah, yeah, yeah, this count the importance of space or the You know the importance of the sky or the stars are astronomical or astrological Phenomenon and the connections of this. I think I definitely obviously yes, you're absolutely right that culturally speaking There's an association between you know, these beings in the sky So I think that that is definitely salient and you know, I think that space traditionally speaking is imagined, you know as You know, we're talking about another realm, you know, like you said both and you know space traditionally isn't imagined as Like an extension of our same plane, you know There's an atmosphere and then you go out into outer space We're talking about traditional imagination that usually it is like a different ontological domain like the firmament You know where the stars are that's not like just an extension of the same sort of physical rules or the same physical framework That we have on earth, you know by just by virtue of like an atmospheric screen You know, it's a different like in the same way, you know, that's where like angels and things like that live, you know So it yeah, I think definitely there's palities. Yeah, exactly powers at the powers of the air, right? Yeah, so I think that there definitely is some some significance to that But you know, I definitely don't I don't think it from from what I gather I don't think that it means you you would either and saying both and I definitely think that there's more than just that There's you know a normal race of intelligent beings that you know came here in spaceships I think that there's something yeah, there's something going on with other The ontological domains of reality, you know, there's a connection between this and you know The idea of the gin for instance between, you know, shadow people or other types of other categories of the spirit Spirit being also the technology which now I'm seeing that the navy the Pentagon just keeps releasing these videos Of course, they could always be CGI But I'm willing to accept that the videos are showing something at like we can finally put that to rest that UFOs are not just definitely a UFO phenomenon Yeah, there's definitely a UFO phenomenon and an abduction phenomenon definitely Like there's not it's not just like people like, you know farmers like out in the sticks like lying or something Or people just seeing like balloons and being confused like they're both Genuine things and that's always really been acknowledged. I think there these are real phenomena The question is, you know what's the explanation behind them I mean to your earlier your much earlier point at the very top of the show I think that I am skeptical of the hard push Toward the kind of materialistic et phenomenon from two angles, you know one being that They're peaceful and one being that they're a military threat I think that that's like a huge reduction of the actual Situation as you know encountered by people who have dealt with it extensively The pincer movement as you guys call that I thought was beautiful Yeah, I mean, yeah between Stephen Greer and the two the stars academy There is a weird kind of dialectic going on where they're kind of beefing It almost feels in a kind of like a pro wrestling kind of way Of these are the two poles of the UFO disclosure Community and they're both saying the other one is sci-offing you but they're probably both sci-offing you to a certain degree I mean when you just look at who these people are associated with like, you know People from the melon family and Pentagon people and John Podesta. Give me a break Tell that story real quick in the way that you guys do it. So you got Stephen Greer up there saying Hey, they're all good and the only bad ones are the evil my labs day I went from them And then I love the way so many people don't see this and you guys were like totally On it, you know, he's he's up there with uh with dodie. He's up there with dodie. He's up there with dodie It's like, come on. How can we even how can we even process that as anything of it? It's an in you. It's almost like in your face Sci-offing, you know, mind controlling you and and he comes out of transcendental meditation Stephen yeah, well, that's what he pushes as a way to Engage with these things. So that's yeah, that's another interesting component of it because he does have this kind of Yeah, maybe they're in a higher spiritual plane, but he's still like deals in the same tropes of like the saucer men You know, they come, you know, maybe they're they're light beings in some way, but they you know They've been they're in contact with the military, you know, they come from other planets, etc You know, and I think that There definitely is I do not credit or trust like the people who are trotted out, you know on tucker or you know In the media to be the ambassadors for how this phenomenon is going to be interpreted because yeah You're absolutely right that those who have followed this for a while like it is quite transparent to them But I think that there's a huge increase in awareness of this like in a general population where there's a huge push like the new york times, etc Like the people are becoming more aware and like they're just believing what these ambassadors of the subject are saying and I do not trust like You know either narrative and I think that yeah, it is a pincer move where they're meant to be like in dialectic And by the appearance of conflict it's to exclude like all the things that are important to consider about this Like everything that they agree on Is like the area where you need to be worried like, you know, the fight they're having is trivial like their area of agreement That's like where the scythe up. I think comes in. It's back to michael acuino, right? I mean as you guys were saying it's like hey He was into you he was a space intelligence officer in the early 90s at the end of his career And on certain interviews he would talk very coyly About having been to area 51 and that maybe he had seen certain technologies that Mayor may not have had et origins But remember he said something weird about like a gyroscope device that he once held in his hand that I guess I think he was implying it mimicked the kind of the properties of how a ufo would move like a flying I think that deep down, you know, maybe not he didn't publicize it as heavily As maybe some other people do but I think that he really did also have kind of a both and Approach to this phenomenon a similar jack fill a way like he thought that he did believe like in kind of Ancient aliens type stuff. I think that he had an idea of Set and maybe some of these like other lovecraftian entities that he would mention as being, you know Out there in some way a connection between, you know, the whole binary of the material and spiritual is a bit vain You know or at least a bit porous Where, you know, I think that it's not just like, oh, you know, they're evil spirits But or they're you know, they're separate from our reality. No, they're like a part of it the whole Thing of like supernatural and paranormal that is in a way like if not a sigh up But then like a naive distinction because like these things are part of nature Let me throw a tiny little Log on the fire that you guys can spin off of and it totally compliments what you're already talking about But you know, I was mentioning Ralph Blumenthal The guy wrote the john mack biography and you know, the other thing he's famous for I talked about this is He along with leslie cane who is awesome and I've interviewed her a couple times on the show They're the ones who broke the new york times december 2017 a tip, you know the flying There are the people so and I always was like to me It was always such an obvious political sigh It was like come on you're kidding me and and the tell is that then they get you know, you push them they go Well, it wasn't classified Okay, this is this is the biggest story the biggest event in history. They're bubbling pentagon once again Right, right. Yeah for 50 60 years. We've been threatening. How many people we know beyond threatened How many people have probably been killed over this families have been threatened You know if you ever let any of this vibration out. Oh, it was just laying there was unclassified But I genuinely think that blumenthal and leslie cane are are sincere You know when you talk to them because and in a way, I love that and it's a kind of a topic I don't know if we'll have time to get into but it's like understanding The complexity of all our lives and how you can be all these things and how we can all be duped, you know and how we can all be How we can all be duped and we think we're getting a real story and they're making us fight for it, you know And it's like oh guys, we got it. Oh, we got it. We got it and all the way all along They were playing you you know in that video and I interviewed the guy who was on the boat very very key A witness at all his experiences with it. He said that's the real video It was in my secret inbox the next day But it also showed up on the internet seven years ago. Somebody released it and got out So the video is is no doubt in my opinion real, but the fact that these guys got Duped by the new york times into thinking that this was something other than the other arm of the pincer movement, you know Exactly And and yeah, and then you look at the people like I've mentioned like laurence rockabeller spent millions of dollar I guess he founded he financed move on the let me see foo for Like all of these different groups for many many years and then when you think about somebody like john pedesta Who's such an operator who is kind of aligned it almost it may even map onto the kind of republican democrat Kind of dialectic in the sense of like you got harry reid john pedesta Tom DeLong like a kind of hollywood entertainment guy on one and then like the melons on one side though Honestly, they're they're both right and left wing depending on the day and then the other side you have tucker who interestingly I don't know if this is totally irrelevant It's interesting that he's such a dead head and is also like UFO reports and is also probably cia His dad I believe ran either voice of america the broadcasting board of governors in the 1980s at like the absolute climax of the cold war and the collapse of You know communism around the world like that was his dad his dad runs around with like sketchy commando military contractors In the middle east and stuff tucker. I believe sorry I believe tucker didn't he say is any one of these many people in the media who said they like tried to apply for the cia But got rejected. I don't believe that honestly and It's interesting. So he's kind of more, you know, we we've talked about the yankee and cowboy dialectic a lot lately Tucker kind of comes from I guess kind of The despite his you know his love for bow ties in the past kind of a more cowboy Aligned sort of thing. So maybe he's going to be having More of the steven greer type. I though, I don't know. Maybe it doesn't map neatly He boosted the elizondo type of like he boosted the phenomenon on the show. I remember very clearly that when you had Uh, I think it was elizondo that he had in the show, but whoever he had on He did he did have yeah Yeah, he said something that was like if it weren't an election year, you know, we're an election month We would do a whole week on this. It's that important, which is such an amazing You know, especially for like an audience like tuckers, which is generally very uncritical and you know Just hanging on his every word for like all their views about the world. Like that's quite a profound statement Like yeah, I use it probably all the time But like that's going to activate like people's sensibilities about this But yes, it's it's very bizarre and something that you know the whole thing I feel like The most famous or one of the most famous things or UFOs to come out of this is tic-tac You know the idea of the tic-tac something that is like, okay, so what is the space narrative? You know, there definitely has to be some more complexity to it because Did the aliens just invent the tic-tac? Like what happened to the old saucers? You know, they stopped using those they have now the tic-tacs are like and well How convenient is it that this now looks like the case for your like apple ear pods or whatever? You know that they're flying around in like it looks like something that You know apple would design if they were going to design like a ufo like why why is this the case? You know, it's it's very interesting. You know, yeah I mean I jack fillet was involved in that phenomenon documentary And I definitely understand the critique of jack fillet that you hear from some quarters And he is like a spooked up person and he has these things, but I don't understand. I don't understand the haters I don't understand the haters on fillet. I really don't I think he's I think he's As legit as as I can find and I think he has that that french vibe that adds to his legitimacy to a certain extent Because I really don't give a shit about what you Americans think I'm going to go back to the sanity sanity of France But he's also, you know, he's plugged into I think he's legitimate venture capitalist Not like a phony venture capitalist that gets put on boards. He really has some knowledge He's a computer scientist, you know, and I'm a computer scientist So I respect that he I don't know I don't understand the haters there And you know the story the story that he told me On the show that I thought was really great and it's confirming of something else that you guys can Clue into He said he was there at sri When they were doing the project stargate stuff at the beginning, you know before they get into the remote viewing or I'll guess at the same time, but they had iri geller famously there, you know The nine guy from the nine who on which we could go off But we're not in the other but anyways He's there and he had missed the experiment the testing that he done So he says Yuri says here, we'll do it. We'll do it right here And so this is the words of Jacques Valet. He says I Did a protocol where I came up with this Image in my head and then Jacques Valet or I wrote it down or whatever it was But it was really quite amazing and I'm Botching it because I can't remember it off the top of my head But it was actually had a language part of it that combined two images in a way that you wouldn't normally Do it was just kind of a quirky thing that valet had had done almost inadvertently that would have probably Not flown in the protocol of the experiment but made it more difficult But geller was able to totally you know Get it and say Read his mind essentially and he was also able to you know Bend spoons right in front of them and spoons that were at the table in the cafeteria And he was able to stop a watch and all that stuff that sounds Really really hokey and really really suspicious I mean He doesn't have a reason to lie on that and tell those stories and he says Yeah, we know I we just tend to hedge like when we're talking about these things But really what I was my watcher point was that I really admire his Passport to megonia and I admire the take that he and and John Keele have on this phenomenon where you know You can see the for instance in the airship room or assume in the 19th century United States Around like the you know mysterious inventor who built this airship That was cited by so many people or even the medieval accounts of like a big hook coming out of some airborne craft and like You know lassoing on to someone like the transformations in the way these crafts are seen based on you know what people Imagine about them or their expectations that they have and all the different weird absurdities or contradictions around the phenomenon You know, I think that's a very salient and important point like when talking about this stuff You know, I think that something that the steven greer and The toaster's academy approach is both having common is that they're very reductive. They're very narrow in their approach You know, they want us to you know, they do want to have a point nailing it down You know and for things to be like, oh, you know, they all the aliens look like this You know, they these are the craft they fly etc. Yeah, and it's just exactly Yeah, they want to bottle it all up. Yeah No, I think I think it's I think it's the closest even though I can't say a hundred percent would trust jack valet, but that's more has to do with the people He was associated with from put off to targ to Who's a kit green the cia analyst to ira einhorn and somebody else who got the god phone call You know, yeah, weird case there edger mitchell who I think founded the institute for newettic What's the dirt on edger mitchell? I wasn't aware. Was he a god phone guy? Edger mitchell wasn't but he he got very into parapsychology after he had some kind of mystical experience I believe coming back from the moon And he I believe yeah, he co-founded the institute for newettic sciences He was also I actually didn't know this. He was he was a member of de moley international A mason international masonic fraternity and was active in the boy scouts as a teen ranger And received a private pilot license at 16, which means he might have been in civil air patrol No, don't go there. Don't go there were two hours. I wanted to go. I wanted to go lee harvey lee harvey oswald I wanted to go ross wall new mexico also and oh, yeah Yeah, so I mean, but yeah the institute for newettic sciences was I want to say that Wow, actually I there's so much stuff with him in 1976 He attempted to secure additional funding for sri's remote viewing research in a private meeting with director of central intelligence george hw Bush So I guess they knew they had the good relationship, but where I I can't remember if institute newettic sciences Well, okay So they they were one of the people that were involved with the sri report that we just did an episode on called changing images of man Yeah, that's something. Yeah. I wanted to bring up this whole time because it's very relevant Yeah to that type of you know 60s stuff what the Like, you know when you mention like they're engaged with remote viewing and all these things like an sri in particular like yeah It's very very relevant. I think yeah, yeah, they mention all kinds of things from yes p to remote viewing to hypnosis and things like that And in that and it feels very prophetic in that basically They're kind of talking about social engineering Using a kind of new agey paradigm that was very big and sanford and palo Alto and kind of california in general Among this kind of academic and scientific intelligentsia at the time and a lot of it does seem to have come curiously kind of true Often kind of via the internet, which is also what sri was building at the exact same time And that's I don't know if you have any particular take on that the kind of duality of Because I do think it's very interesting that they were doing all these experiments and esp remote viewing telekinesis what not And kind of like, you know wireless information transfer, you know brain to brain if you will But then they're simultaneously building the infrastructure and the technology And even like that, you know the conceptual framework for what would be like computer technology and the internet And in a way if you look at like satellite gps technology or smartphones all these things Are these not kind of Like substitute prosthetic like Uh cyborg devices that are meant to do the things that were being covered in these remote viewing and Parapsychology experiments and if so, I know there there's a take that i'm familiar with that I'm not sure that I Am fully on board with because I think there's there's some kind of there there with the parapsychology stuff But to some extent with some of that stuff a smoke screen Perhaps or certain aspects of it for the actual building of the internet Because okay, just for example remote viewing they were using that in 1980s people like ingo swan, right to go spy on Say a soviet nuclear facility, right? And you know, they that they would use it for espionage purposes But then there are other things that Could do the exact same thing at least to my knowledge when You were talking about like the I don't know the the types of remote viewing they would at least be doing in these military applications Maybe there was a story about they walked into like brezhnev's office in the kremlin once that was one of the Yeah, one of the in the soviet psychic discoveries book that we read that was one I forgot the name of the The performer, but he was one of the a great sort of magician and illusionist, you know, you mean wolf messing Yeah, one thing that was kind of significant is like once they had the kind of I think what was it called? echelon like the secret spy satellite network that was really up and running by the 80s They were able to monitor soviet economic activity in real time in a way that they never were able to do before And because of it so for example like take grain for example If you could have satellites flying over there 24 7 and you could predict the size of the grain harvest or you know Where how fast it moved to market the transportation lines all that kind of stuff That you were kind of boxed out on before like it was really hard to get intelligence on that If you could get enough detail Then you could start manipulating global commodities markets Which they did, you know under the leadership of people like bill casey the ci director as part of this vaster strategy to economically basically sabotage the eastern bloc and basically throw it into crisis by manipulating everything from like the global oil prices to like the price of grain and all kinds of other things So in a way the that satellite technology Would be an incredibly valuable weapon to disrupt their economy now If they knew that we had those satellites I mean, I don't know if they could have you know done anything about it But if they knew that we had those satellites, you know, maybe they could you know Play in accordingly and try to counteract that But if all they hear is that we have a bunch of psychic super spies that are remote viewing on them Which is what they were hearing because the esselin had the soviet american friendship Organization. Oh my god. That was sending scientists back. There's too. There's too many threads here, but you do have to before you leave The gorby yelson dropping acid thing is so Frickin because it's another one of those where now. I don't know how I feel about that now I feel like damn way to go guys, you know, I mean Tell that tell that story real quick. Well, I Well, yeah, I mean that that's a sort of we don't know that for sure But we do know that it's almost certain to me. It's almost certain that it's some kind of drug I don't know if it was I think at least a yeltsin at least yeltsin because yeltsin came over here in the kind of mid to late 1980s when you still, you know, a politician a soviet politician and he's You know that he went he came over here on an esselin sponsored tour of america And you know, he's mentioned a few things of it over the years that you can find some quotes from him and apparently This is where he had his ecstatic conversion to capitalism Was in houston supermarket on this tour by esselin where he looked around at just all the colorful cereal boxes and twinkies Yeah, coca-cola And we like burst into tears because it was so glorious and like his poor poor russian Soviet people just have to eat. I don't know organic food and jars that isn't poison It's so terrible, right, you know or blah blah blah bread lines, etc But you know, that was like his story of like, oh, I just realized the abundance of american capitalism and wanted And then I was resolved to like go back and like bring capitalism back to russia, you know And so there's that but then, you know, he went on a whole tour and i'm pretty sure he stopped at esselin where they got those those hot spring tubs and everything And it could have been at any point on that trip where somebody could have either slipped him something or You know, I mean that guy was already a pretty big alcoholic. So, you know, just dropped something in his vodka And boom, there you go. So I don't we don't know what could I mean he like As a kind of bumbling alcoholic Piece of shit that he was he's probably relatively easy to manipulate or something But at the same time, I think gorbachev actually is a more interesting case because I feel like Up to a point gorbachev really believed in Kind of what he was doing with glass nose and perestroika like he did consider himself A good socialist or a communist, but he just he felt that it had to be reformed and blah blah blah And you know, we had to do a dangus turn basically and and then also saved the world from I think he was very mindful and afraid of like nuclear annihilation and that that stuff which is again Was a psi op that was deliberately fostered by the Reagan administration So I think there was a lot like, you know Factors like that going in but you know, I would I'd like I have to dig deeper into that. Yeah, I don't know I don't know goreby himself visited excellent But if he did like well if you think about it, like that's what those human potential movement I mean if you've read changing images of man, like they're obsessed with it Like they really truly genuinely believe and like especially like if you go back and like make the mk ultra connection Like they believe in using psychedelics to like change people's perceptions and like save the world from, you know disaster like they Definitely, yeah, I agree with you. Definitely at least Yeltsin like that rumor. I I definitely believe it Like I don't know if goreby like on the books went to excellent But like every every soviet like advisor of his who went there like for sure Yeah, yeah, because I mean what they did is they they somehow like it ended up being a kind of coup from the inside Where the ideological they're like hot tub diplomacy at the time Yeah, exactly So, you know, it could have been they sat in the hot tub and said look Boris We think that you are just the person that russian needs But you know, you need to go back and do this for us and we'll make you president of russia or something like that I mean, I know somebody was slipping in the late 80s Like maybe the kgb was slipping because you know, how do you let this guy like run around with Esalen in america and then come back and obviously be somebody who's trying to undermine the socialist system that people voted to Maintain and then does it anyways and like nobody gets him like, I don't know. It's it's very kind of weird. Let me throw out A little bit of time we have left if we keep going over but I can't stop talking to you guys Let me throw out one other little trail that I've run across that will directly maybe we'll you'll you'll have to track it down See what you think Grant Cameron is a ufo researcher In he's from canada and then the late greats dan freindman is another guy who was kind of pretty pretty well Renowned as being a ufo investigator who was legit and you know did really good solid work. Well between them they managed to Pry loose a foyer request and that's something called something differently called in canada But the wilbert smith memo. Have you ever heard of that? Yes, yes So wilbert smith was the guy in canada at the strange desk in canada for all aerial phenomena So he's getting these ufo reports and finally he goes to the his bosses of bosses and says What are we going to do and they go right go down there go down to the states See what's going on. He goes down. He meets with van of our bush He meets with all the people that that he says in this memo that he writes when he comes back that you would only We only know later that these are the people these are the majestic 12 if you believe in majestic 12 And I think there's a kernel of truth there But this and again this memo is only released accidentally And it does look like it truly was released accidentally unlike the phony ones that are fake ones that are released Accidentally, but the memo says this the memo says this it says Yes, ufo's are real It is the at the highest level of security Inside the united states higher than the hydrogen bomb But here's the point that cameron grant cameron. You've got to give them credit for picking out in the last line of it It says They believe that there is a mental phenomenon Associated with this and they are exploring that and what he connects that to Is mk ultra so and it and it doesn't like we're saying it's not an either or thing It's not like spy on the russians get the you know, or they're spying on us do it before they do but it's also that et is in this other realm where telepathy is the mode of communication We don't know shit about telepathy. We better start getting up to speed on some of these extended mental realms and it just Yeah, it looks worth pursuing to me. Well, it does actually that reminds me like my I think the take I lean towards most with that kind of stuff about You know was remote viewing a cover for like internet technology being created is I kind of lean more towards both and of Because I don't know from everything I've read about all this parapsychological phenomenon Like two things jump out one is that there seems to be a demonstrable kind of effect Like I it does seem like there is something like some people have a certain kind of enhanced ability at the same time It seems to be pretty clear that it's very difficult to like programatize and system and standardize it and also like mass produce it in a way that you can privatize it and integrate it into like our corporate economy and Roll it out to everybody and use it to control everybody because it's too not well understood enough yet So basically it's like they were kind of pursuing these two tracks and maybe they had to build the internet because It's kind of like that thing with tesla have tesla invented like wireless energy and then you know jp Morgan is like well, I can't meter for this like sucks. I'm gonna go with Edison. It's kind of like that It's like well, you couldn't fully control if we just started opening like remote viewing schools and like teaching people how to Cultivate their psychic abilities or something like that. Well, where's the money in control in that? You know instead Let's put these satellites up and then convince everybody to buy this phone and get people in sweatshops to make the phone And use child slaves in africa to mine the minerals for it and then put it all together and then blast psi ups at U247 and like, you know, basically create a little kithexus device That addicts you and then we can and then we can get our closet and real good And then, you know, they probably won't even and then we can still pursue Our parapsychological stuff and and i'm sure somebody is still trying to figure out Kind of how to reliably do it in a way where You know anybody with the the money or the access could you know pick up a skill But maybe not maybe it doesn't work that way. Maybe some people have it. Some people don't like we we don't really know I think there's this has always been a thing where there's a certain sense of its unreliability I think that you know the to try to use I think that's Spiritual powers like in the way they've been discussed like traditionally, you know, yeah It's very difficult to use these for a cynical or selfish motives But I do think that you know not to go completely down the both end rabbit hole But part of what you're saying is I think To speak to what you're saying in part is that I think there isn't necessarily a divide between these things because like again As we all talked about on the show some of the like technologies like that we use now Like really have like an archaeology or a history to them that is connected to like these occult Practices like the scrying glass, you know the black the obsidian black mirror and the black mirror of the a computer screen You know, I think you know and people who talk about psionics like they will always talk about the interaction Or you know, maybe the the discord or the the tension between the internet and you know Of course, you're like 5g and stuff like that, you know, so it's something that is in that sphere as well So I I don't necessarily think yeah I definitely think that there is something to what you're saying where the operational goals weren't mutable just in that domain and the internet developed to reach them But there really is a lot of time a crossover between those two areas You know like a neuro link is the ultimate example. I guess of that. Yeah, and you know, maybe that's the dream Well, yeah, UFO is actually a great example because the two themes that you see like yeah, like like Alex mentioned the two themes are the MK ultra sort of mental phenomena connection and the other one is metals and Geomagnetics or whatever, you know, like the mystery metals like those are the two Things that always come up and are the the perennial obsessions of this up to today But to the star stuff of like that we have these compounds, you know, that will be of great use, you know, or whatever Like in our partnership free energy Yeah, they sold it to the army or something Yeah, exactly. They made like a partnership. Yeah, they're like, yeah, what like what are these metals like telling me, you know, so I don't know. Yeah Yeah, yeah Well, you guys this has been great and we just have to end it at some point or we could go No, it's probably always encounter. Yeah Well, it's it's it's to our benefit because A subliminal jihad is something that everyone has to check out and experience for themselves You guys have already kind of dropped a couple little hints about some stuff that's coming up But maybe you want to do some more of that and tell people the best way to connect Sure, well, yeah, you could find the easiest way to find us is probably on twitter at subliminal jihad And you can find us individually that way too You can find us on soundcloud or spotify or apple podcast and on patreon where yeah, like we said that kpa episode will be out later this week And you know, we do what we do one public type. Yeah. Yeah one topic one one premium Yeah, we got we got dogman coming, you know, maybe some people are attended to the dogman the dogman mystery We have our own take on that coming down kpa. It's good Yeah, changing images of man episode An opperman on our show if you want to oh, yeah, we have an opperman interview that should be out In the next week or two. That was really great. And yeah, what we're probably gonna We might go back to the I think the gifted children kind of thing Yeah, I think we might we just had an episode on patreon a kind of qanon update Where we talked a lot about this like q researcher davetroy And if you want a spicy little nugget to leave you with because this the stitches Everything together. He happened to mention that his father Went to columbia and was selected as a part of a gifted child program And his mentor, you know who his mentor was Donald bar a former attorney general his father Who's got jeffrey eppstein his job at the Dalton school? Yes, he was also a cia agent who was a coordinator at reed traffic cocaine at amina arkansas in the eighties He got jeffrey eppstein his job. Yeah, no, he got jeffrey eppstein. So, okay, that's the closest we've gotten so far to proving that maybe Donald bar bill bars dad was running and he was he was running a program for like gifted columbia Students in like physics and science and stuff like that and that's where this dude davetroy's dad He said he was his mentor You know and so that I mean he was a little older at that point But the fact that he was the head of dalton school and then he personally brought in jeffrey eppstein a college drop out To teach these elite maybe gifted kids kind of seems like maybe maybe jeffrey eppstein was a gifted child of donald bar And then you know, we're we're right there. We're right there in the thick of it, you know So i'll leave it. We we'll probably circle around to that that kind of stuff pretty soon, but you know It's a it's a crazy web, but yeah anyways, yeah stop. Yeah. Yeah, we got some good stuff coming up and yeah No, this has been really fun. Thanks for having us on Oh, thank you collet and dimitri. You guys have been fantastic and we'll do it again sometime. Yeah, I'd love to Thanks again to dimitri and collet from subliminal jihad for joining me today on skeptico the one question I would tee up from this interview is what do you make of colonel? michael aquino be careful how you answer Because the rabbit hole on this one gets very deep very quick QAnon spirituality mk ultra the whole shebang Let me know your thoughts always love to hear from you until next time take care and bye for now