 Now we're going to have the second session of our conference. It's entitled energy literacy what consumers want We're delighted to have with us two experts in communications and consumer engagement from the United States Juliet Chavit is president and chief executive of smart mark communications and Patty Durand is president and chief executive of the Smart energy consumer collaborative and at the end of this session Juliet and Patty will engage with your questions And we have another guest as well. So please submit them via slide all at any point during this session Now Juliet our first speaker in this session has worked with utilities around the world in ruling out Rolling out excuse me smart grid and smart energy solutions And she specializes in building consumer trust and engagement And we're really glad that she is with us here today indeed both of our speakers because of course today is Thanksgiving in the United States, so they've given up their time to be with us today. So thank you very much for doing that So our first speaker to talk on to the theme of what consumers want Juliet Chavit president and chief executive of smart mark communications I don't know if I should use the podium. Maybe I'll just stand here. I'm Juliet Chavit president of smart mark communications I'm delighted to be here brought my family with me to Ireland to celebrate Thanksgiving And I'm really excited to be here because normally I'm the communications person in a room full of networking engineers and metering Departments and trying to justify and quantify the customer experience So to be in an environment where you are putting customer front and center. It makes me very excited and happy All right, so I'm gonna start by talking about what consumers don't want And I think that we can all identify with these things so Consumers do not want high bills Consumers do not want their power out Consumers don't want to be on hold for 30 minutes Until somebody answers the call center or address their billing question and customers definitely don't want to be told I have no idea when your power is being restored. So stay tuned Customers also don't want to hear that there's a line item on their bill That will help the utility pay for operational benefits And shockingly in the United States when the early utilities started rolling out smart meters That indeed was their number one benefit to customers. It will help the utility Improve its operational efficiency. You can guarantee you that is not what a custom what utilities lead with now Customers also may not want a smart meter And I heard a lot of very positive thoughts in the last session about how everyone was really excited about smart meters I consumers really wanted them and I will tell you that one of the lessons learned in the United States is that customers Do not all want smart meters and those people tend to be the loudest people of all And Many customers do not want Change they don't want any kind of change and they are most definitely not willing to pay for it So now that I've given you a list of what they don't want what do they want what to consumers wants and in order to answer This question. I want everyone here to take off their utility hats and remember what it's like to be a consumer Because it's very important Let me demonstrate something and hopefully technology will be my friends and it will cooperate Let's see if we can get this to work. Can you guys hear that? Can you hear it with my mic? Okay The light bulb the light bulb as Thomas Edison invented it Let's see. What's this light bulb gonna tell us? Okay So we all know the Thomas Edison invented the commercial light bulb. What else did he invent that might be related to this light bulb? Anyone know the phonograph right so both the phonograph and the light bulb Would change humankind forever Now it will shut off happy Okay, there we go So why am I telling you this why we listen to a singing light bulb? Well to think about innovation and success you must think we must think about what Customers want wait hold on. Sorry. Let me go back both the phonograph and the light bulb would change humankind forever one because It would Thomas Edison would invent something that we would need and the other was because Thomas and Edison invented something that we would want And I want to tell you a really interesting story about this light bulb and this little light bulb Last week I spent the week with the regulators across all the states in the United States And we did a smart home and this light bulb was probably the most popular thing in it Not because it's super cool or the fact that it's an LED But when I bought this light bulb and I brought it home to my 15-year-old daughter Who does thinks I have the most boring job probably in the world and I told her I bought a light bulb She didn't even look up from her device. I said no, it's a really cool light bulb Didn't even get a response. I said this one plays music. She went what she's a tainted scholar It has a party mode. She said what and we had a 15-minute conversation about this light bulb And I could promise you that in the future. She may not be the first person to switch Her lights to LEDs because it's the right thing to do But I swear she'll incorporate her entire home with LEDs and it plays her favorite song from one direction Okay, so to think about innovation and success we must think about what customers want as much as what they need and in 2017 what do customers want more than anything? They want control and I'm so glad that I heard that throughout the session was not planned Okay I'm gonna tell you a story about a utility in the United States called Delmarva power It has about 300 and something thousand customers So I would say that's about the size of the phase one pilot ESP is about to put out So the thing about Delmarva power is they had they wanted to roll its mark where they were really excited about it But their timing was really interesting because in November of 2009 something happened in Bakersfield, California That would change the utility industry forever Does anyone know what it was? Okay, it started with a utility called PSE and G a PS. Sorry PG and a excuse me terrible missing PG and a in California and they were rolling out smart meters and they rolled them out in Bakersfield and The customers decided to sue the utility because they didn't want smart meters Not only did they sue the utility they took to the streets in protest and they stopped the deployment and cost the utility millions of dollars Caused an enormous headache the regulator said you do not have any value to the customer and you cannot roll out smart meters and Utilities who clearly had taken customers for granted because if you want to pay a utility bill if you want your lights on you pay a utility bill Suddenly realized that customers could stand in between Themselves and technology deployment So Delmarva power of course, you know, they were about to roll at smart meters and didn't know what to do and I have a very weird background where I spent a lot of time with network service people and Telecom transformation and so I spent a lot of time sort of Demystifying that and explaining it in lame in terms. So somebody I knew who was at Delmarva power said I know this girl who can Translate complex things and we should talk to her about how to talk to consumers. So I came in and I told hey Delmarva I said I think you should talk to customers and we did and customers told us all kinds of crazy things like They wanted to see a smart meter. They actually cared what it looked like and they said What does it do for us and they said oh is it gonna help us take control of our energy use and I said yes That's exactly what it was going to do So we rolled out a mass marketing campaign Right after the biggest burn in utility history probably around smart grid a month later We rolled out a massive campaign across the country with billboards with smart meters on them with that said taken That said take control of your energy use We had ads we had billboards. We had You know any type of communication possible. We decided we're gonna shout it from the highest mountains and I will tell you there was a lot of nail-biting in Delmarva power Terror I will tell you terror was this crazy girl talking about So I want to tell you a little bit more about what the customers told us in focus groups when we because when we first Went to the customers. We had these really super sexy ads nothing with a meter we had like you know outer space and planes and you know cool Stuff that we thought hey, this is good and resonate because customers want You know the next-gen thing and customers said that you know, we want to see the technology We don't want to hear about planes trains and automobiles and this is a smart meter show us what it looks like So that was the first lesson we took they told us you know tell us what we're gonna get from it We don't really care about you know the fact that it's gonna help your utility improve their operational efficiency What are we gonna get from it and we learned that customers were not afraid of technology there was this You know consensus at Delmarva that people would freak out over this new technology and customers were like we already have phones We're not afraid of technology We buy the smartest television sets that are out there. We're not afraid of it And we learned the customers cared about this more than we thought we thought hey Who really cares about a smart meter going into their home? It's just going in the back No one's gonna see it We're just gonna replace their old meter no one cared about the old analog meters And I was shocked to meet customers that every day would go to their analog meter with a notebook and take notes on You know how much usage they had had and they cared about how much energy they were using And honestly, I was completely shocked with the level of how much they cared And we also learned the customers were completely reasonable and they were willing to talk to us and the biggest thing that they said was Tell us what you're doing. It's the lack of communication lack of understanding of what you're doing That is what we don't like it makes us concerned it makes us nervous and it makes us wonder if we should trust you So we took out so we saw what Delmarva power did they rolled out this large campaign It was a very successful deployment Delmarva power is part of the Pepco holdings group of which Delmarva, Maryland Pepco, Maryland and the District of Columbia Pepco DC all belong they all followed with the same approach to smart meter deployments But we learned we took away from this lesson at Delmarva power some important lessons and I want to share them with you We learned that the regulators cared about the customer plan In fact in the United States after what happened at PG&E and what happened at Delmarva power The regulator started insisting that the utilities present a customer education plan along with their operational plan So along with the whole networks diagram and deployment and financial breakdown of how meters were going to be deployed on the technical side They wanted a full-blown deep customer education plan and how we were going to educate and engage customers And this was not a marketing plan. This was an education plan We also learned that the stakeholders had a lot to say about whether or not these deployments were either Approved whether the business cases were approved whether or not utilities got cost recovery or whether or not The deployments were successful stakeholders like low-income Senior representatives ethnic minorities. They all cared about smart meters. Who would have thought? We saw that the US government realized that there was a need they put you're probably all familiar with the air grants and the Infrastructure grants that were provided early on to and sense utilities in the United States to deploy smart grid So they developed and I was a part of it. I'm very lucky to say I helped organize it It was a nationwide Customer education working group for the US Department of Energy that brought utilities together Because one of the other things that we learned out of this deployment where we could share stories with each other Something that happens in the United States is that you know because we are such a large country And we have our own specific service territories of which different states and even within those, you know Deregulated markets we have so many different types of utilities that everyone is very siloed or hat I should say everybody was very siloed when it came to their technology deployments They focus on their customer. They focus on their geography We realized the customers really wanted to hear what was working at another utility because they realized that there were best Practices that they could take away and they realized that there were some mistakes that they could avoid and I remember actually I put an event together a couple years ago with some utilities and One of them came with a notebook and she said I hope you don't mind I'm going to steal everything that I learned today. I hope that that's okay So utilities really wanted to learn what was working at other utilities But it's something so today is not really just about smart metering and smart grid deployments I have I think it's important to remember that it's not about a meter when we're talking about technology and grid modernization So technology continues to advance the availability of technology tools to help customers manage their energy use and take control are more Available than ever so originally when the mirrors were deployed We saw a lot of web presentments people could see and manage their own energy use in terms of understanding You know when we're peak periods and non peak periods But today smart home is a huge market at least in the United States I can speak more comfortably about but you walk into one of the major appliance retailers and I would say that a third of the store is taken home taken over with smart home technologies And these are very confusing sometimes to customers. We have smart thermostats. We have voice activation We have smart alarm systems and use you name it. It's smart and it's available but one of the things we also learned was that cost The burden of cost for these home energy devices is somewhat of a myth So at the same day Rook event that I was at two weeks ago We actually demoed a model home and we put an entire room. It was the master bedroom We had two lights a fan a ceiling fan and Something else which I can't remember in the room and we put them in and we use voice activation to shut it off to Represent what it would be like on a peak event to make it really easy for the customer So we use we connected those appliances to the Amazon dot and we basically said, you know Master bedroom shut off and everything shut off. It was as easy as that now What everybody all the regulators at least were particularly interested in is all we used to do that was one smart plug and a whole lot of splitters So we weren't buying expensive lights. We weren't buying expensive equipment We used one smart splitter that connected with the Amazon dot one smart Plugs split and they connected with the Amazon dot and it was it was shocking to most people in the room And by the way for those communications professionals if any of you are here from the utilities I know what it costs to roll out customer education programs and marketing programs And I can tell you that if you swap one postcard for one smart plug and with instructions on how to use it You might have a little bit more impact on long-term sustainable energy reduction The other thing I'd like to say because I think this came up in the last panel with one of the questions is that I believe that the Responsibility of education falls on the on the utility And I will tell you why? Actually in the United States, there's a very large program called the green button initiative that was put out by the US Department of Energy And it talks and makes it lets utilities make available Consumer usage to third-party apps developers because there is this Feeling among utilities that like the next best app is going to change the world problem with Providing and so many utilities say it's up and many of the utility exactly that spoke to say it's up to those Technology vendors to like educate people, you know the Silver Spring Networks of the world let them educate the problem with having third parties and even policymakers is that you have a trusted relationship with the customer and You need to provide unbiased information technology vendors are trying to push products at the end of the day They're not trying to get you to lower your energy usage for the overall benefit of Achieving nationwide energy reduction or your purse or your specific utility goals So it is really important and I firmly believe very strongly believe that the role of the education falls on the the role of the educator falls on the utility And also people want to see tangible results. So going back to this This is something that people people can see and feel and touch and buy We're not talking about some mystic message in the sky and that's important to remember The other thing that I think is probably my most important thing I'd like to get across today Is that you can quantify the customer experience? So I'm very excited as I started by saying that we're in a room full of people that focus on Consumer on the consumer in the roadmap for for grid modernization But I will tell you that in many utilities the communications people when they're invited into the room are the last people to come Into the room and basically told you know make some shiny Advertising campaign and it is very important to remember that there are metrics Associated with with energy reduction through education that are as valuable and a benefit to Decrease energy use as the operational ones and these can be quantified and they were forced to be quantified in many of the business Cases for the utilities in the United States Okay, so here are some things that utilities must consider Utilities must consider building stronger bridges between their technology and marketing departments bring the marketing people the communications people the Corp comms people whoever that's going to be to educate the customer bring them into the conversation early engage them ask them what they think because those are the people responsible for communicating and Don't and it's very important that they are not walking out of the room with the message that this is a great thing for the utility They are very important to building that message And then also what is the price of not educating customers? I've spoken to many utilities that think oh, we're just going to sneak the meters in no one really cares We don't really have money to spend on education and then they'll go and have five fires because a meter manufacturer saw some errors in their meters and they suddenly spent three times as much doing damage controls I would have by sort of educating customers early on Also remember that consumers can be a roadblock roadblock to technology adoption I know there is a lot of optimism and there should be around meter adoption in In Ireland's but you should note that when I put in smart meters in Ireland the first thing that came up on the page was stop Smart meters now, so it's very real and I encourage you all to do it yourself And then also you must understand you must improve the communication with the customers You must actually talk to customers the other thing about utilities people and I love them I think you're the hardest working people in the entire world by the way because you go to work when there's a storm I think you're the hardest people in the world, but you must remember that We may think that we know what customers want, but unless you're actually talking to them You really don't and we do have a really hard time for some reason like taking off our utility hat Remembering that we're customers to and other industries And that the conversation between utilities and customers is a dynamic one and the road to grid Modernization whether it starts with the meter or ends with in-home technologies or or foremost It's a dynamic ongoing communication So you can't talk to the customers in one focus group and say we did our job You must continue to talk to customers through the journey It must be an important part of the journey and there should be metrics associated with any of your any of your education Campaigns that tie back to speaking with customers and customer expectations Okay, so where do we go from here? We must look at the bus big picture and we must understand that customers play an important role in the adoption of new technology I Don't necessarily agree with a lot of things I heard earlier about the customers Will just do just want it all automated I think the customers are used to taking control everyone I bet you in this room has a device I bet you have like 50 apps on it and you like knowing what's happening You'd like information on demand and you you're not afraid of that you want to be you want that control You do not want to give up that control You must include stakeholders early on in the process So if you're thinking about these deployments again, I encourage you to go meet with those groups that Play a very important role to whether or not these deployments are going to go through I can think of one utility with San Diego gas and electric actually they had an amazing program with their communities and They offered stipends so that they offer they did a contest to all the local stakeholder groups and said if you present to us Education campaigns and how you're going to teach people about the benefits of the new technology We will give you a grant to do so and you can educate your own populations. I thought it was amazing. It was hugely successful And also when there is transparency and good availability of factual information Then the naysayers become much less problematic Information is key Customers and people are skeptical if you do something without telling them and have this open transparency And they're much more likely to provide resistance in that case Okay, so I heard, you know buzz about IOT. It's one of my favorite topics But there's also a lot of buzz in our industry about what the utility of the future looks like So I want you to remember a couple of important things that smart technology is only as good as the problem it solves I don't know if any of you have ever been to the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas I was there in January of last year and they had every technology known to man My favorite was like singing toilet paper and I was like wow, this is great But is this company gonna be around next year because what problem does this solve? Technology for technology's sake. It's not very cool technology to solve problems is cool and Smart people need to know what to do with smart technology because the technology itself is not enough It is great to have obviously Self-healing networks, but you need people in those operation centers to be able to manage that when something goes wrong and you need to have people provide some level of participation and energy reduction for them to be vested in the long-term goals and I believe that the utility of the future must put the customer first Must embrace technology to solve problems and improve the lives of our customers our employees and our communities This is very important and if these things don't happen then so what if you're not making our lives better so what? Okay, so some things to think about I thought this was really interesting I know there's a lot of conversation today about making business cases for you know profitability for the utility How do you optimize this infrastructure that you're about to put in we did a survey my company did a survey of 5,000 people last year about what customers want and I thought this was really interesting Since this is about what customers want What would you like from your utility of the future so? Offering classes and information about energy reduction was the second to the lowest response here But the number one response was offer in-home products and smart energy products And I thought this was very interesting that customers would want that from their utility They don't want to get that from Best Buy from the appliance store They want that from their utility and the second was to make your bill a little easier to understand And if my utility could do anything in the future, what would it be and the number one response Was to automate energy savings for me again leverage these technology investments and make this easy for me and then We did some other things, but I want to point out the fourth line here Which is make everything available by app because somehow Utilities seem to think that the big thing is the app. We have an outage notification map We have an online billing app. Aren't we cool? Okay, we can again take off your utility hat go to your other industries and realize that apps are not necessarily the next big app Is not the next big thing. It is how do you automate it through a series of? physical technologies real technologies and applications you have to develop an ecosystem, but the next big app is not going to do it and Also, what does that utility of the future look like this was my favorite answer And I want to point to the 9.8% on the bottom the utility the future provides energy and that's it and That's what customer said that is not what I said That's not my opinion the number one thing is that we're not sure But we're open-minded and the second was provide energy and technology solutions So for the executives in the room, they're thinking about the retail businesses had optimized investment You should really be taking very close attention to this but more importantly is this open-mindedness and not sure of What the utility is but there's a tremendous opportunity to build the utility of the future with the customer by improving that dialogue and really extracting information to help define who you're going to be and Obviously to face the challenges that we see today, whether that's hurricane Ophelia whether that's fires whether that's natural or unnatural acts of Challenges to to infrastructure and Then lastly I want to go back to my light bulb Because I deal with a lot of engineers in my world my husband my father my sister I once an engineer so Let's think about how the light bulb works in a circuit and we have you know positive and negative forces So we have people and we have technology and to gather those things You know turn that light bulb on but if you make a break in that circuit Then that light bulb goes off and electricity shuts down. So I'd like to argue that it is a really Important combination of people and technology to make this successful to create a sustainable and brighter energy future for all of us Thank you very much Thank you very much, Juliet I just want to remind you as well to tweet please Because as I said earlier, we do have a prize available today for the best treated today We're looking for sort of comments on what you're seeing the hashtag is take charge 2017 and if you could also put at ESP group on it We'd appreciate that as I said there is a chair there is a prize of a gift voucher for the most provocative interesting comment that you might have about the presentations that you're hearing today and We will be hearing more from Juliet in a few moments when we engage in our questions and answer session But our next speaker heads up the smart energy consumer collaborative It's based in Atlanta, Georgia and the SECC is a leading forum for spreading knowledge about smart grid technologies the SECC's annual state of the consumer report is the author of consumer behavior Segmentation and analysis study. So to talk about the new energy consumer Please welcome the president and chief executive of the smart energy consumer collaborative party jurand. I've been in Ireland a week Touring around I've been to the ring of Kerry beautiful amazing countryside and went through Connor pass and Been to Dingle Peninsula and then now spending time in Dublin amazing beautiful country First off. I want to agree with a couple of things in particular Juliet said Customers are not afraid of technology. We've learned that in our research and Second customers care more about energy than you think they do So let me get going We're a we're what you call an NGO in the states. We call it a nonprofit. We are Across the US. I'm in Atlanta, but we have members all across the US and we are a national nonprofit Our focus is on consumers and consumer engagement. That is our mission. Our mission is to advance a smart A smart grid a friendly smart grid friendly to consumers that consumers engage and adopt And we do that through three main areas one is listening actually to consumers We do that through focus groups and through surveys both online and On the telephone and then we also educate consumers. We have a direct consumer education program Juliet mentioned that when she Googled smart meter smart meters Ireland stop smart meters now came up We were founded in part due to the backlash that Juliet told you about from Bakersfield we were founded seven years ago right around when that was happening because there was broad understanding the utility industry that there needed to be some Pretty big consumer education or they were going to block the technology advancements that needed to happen And so we have an education program that initially focused on smart meter deployments and on myth busting So that those stop smart meter groups weren't the only ones out there There was an NGO out there a nonprofit out there also talking about grid modernization and educated consumers So we created a myth busting video that directly Rebudded every single item that these stop smart meter groups were saying that the smart meter RF emissions caused brain cancer That it allowed the government into your home so that they knew what you were doing in your bedroom They were saying nutty things in our case They were also saying that utilities were forcing smart meters into the home in your case You're not doing that since it's opt-in, but in our case in the US that was the case utilities We're requiring consumers to take those smart meters, and it's still that way mostly Many utilities have an opt-out program. They charge customers some charge $25 a month some charge a very punitive $75 a month to opt out of a smart meter and of that Price will reduce opposition pretty quickly But utilities do require their customers to get a smart meter for the most part What we found that as Juliet said the number of people that are opposed to it are very vocal and very small So we did a lot with consumer education around fact sheets very bright And easy to read simple wording around what RF emissions are and that they're safe and What the benefits are of the grid are to you the consumer and we also have YouTube videos We have a website called what is smart energy dot org that educates broadly about the benefits of the grid of the Meters and the grid a smart grid to the consumers And we have a whole social media program with Facebook and Twitter and newsletters and things like that and then lastly we we collaborate broadly with the The stakeholder community so we have a lot of members at our utilities a lot of members our technology providers also And then the most important constituent probably is that several maybe a dozen to 20 of our members our consumer advocacy groups Which have formed in the US partly to protect consumer interests in our regulatory proceedings But in some cases formed to kind of be a watchdog on the utility and can create quite a problem at the regulatory Agencies a lot of them are members because everyone has a different view of the grid Utilities have one view consumers have another view and Regulators and consumer advocates have a third view and so the thinking is let's all get together in one Organization and make sure we get it right will inform each other and influence each other and we also do webinars and we do Foundational research that we present at conferences that two of what two of that we host ourselves Now I'm going to present to you two main Findings from two main pieces of research that we published in 2017 One is the consumer policy market segmentation study and I'll draw your attention to the the lime bar At the middle that shows the different waves. We've been doing this research once a year and since our existence So we have the largest longitudinal study of US consumers in the country We've spoken now to over 7,000 Consumers about what they want and what they think and we've created a segmentation profile and by that I mean it's a profile of what are the values and attitudes that consumers have around energy So that we can understand them better and so that when utilities have goals or create programs They can align them with what consumers care about Before I get into the actual findings, I want to review that segmentation framework with you So first off, this is the US population by segment. It's I know this is Ireland But people's attitudes and values around energy are the same people or people are the same Wherever they are the percentages may differ and that's the case in the US too The southeastern United States is very different from the California Pacific Northwest area So the percentages differ in those regions as well and they differ within a state. They may differ within a city So our first segment are green champions They make up about 44% of the US population and let me just clarify that doesn't mean that they're Environmentalists who will march in the street and make demands. It just means that they care about Sustainability and climate change more than they care about the other areas of energy The next segment about 18% are saving seekers. They care the most about saving money They don't care about the environment too much. Just save the money on their bill About 13% are status quo. These are the people that don't really care and These are the ones that Juliet mentioned. I think Susan mentioned earlier or Sarah. Sorry Susan. Yeah that people want That that there's an old guard I call an old guard is not the word she used There's an old guard of stakeholders in the electricity industry That think that people just don't care that much just flip the switch and pay the bill and leave them alone And they do exist But the old guard in the utility industry at least in the states Many of them think this segment is everyone and you can see by the data that is Clearly not the case. It is a minority And then there's the technology cautious These are the people that do care about the environment or do care about saving money But they don't really get how technology can help there in the I flipped off the switch And I turned my heat up or down and that's really all you can do and Then there's the movers and shakers what we call early adopters. These are the digitally One in cool new technologies and things that help them manage their life So if you look at that you can see the majority if you add the green champions the saving seekers and the movers and shakers You're well into the major majority territory of people who care about energy a lot Just a little bit more about the segments Some demographic information for you the green champions tend to be the highest educated. They tend to be have earned the most money and They have a very strong interest in technology and they care a lot about climate change or they care about Sustainability or they care about green or clean energy in their utility They will answer questions such as I want my utilities energy portfolio to be cleaner and Then saving seekers tend to have the lowest education Average income they tend to be fairly dissatisfied with their utility there of all the segments This is the next to the last next to the highest segment in utility dissatisfaction. They want to save money They want control. They don't understand their bill. They don't know what to do and they're generally frustrated So if a utility has a rate rate savings plan a demand response reduction program Or any other program that will help them save money then they'll enroll or they'll buy or they'll engage The status quo people are the ones that are satisfied. They don't see any problem In fact, they think that there is no problem and they become irritated with Efforts to reach them to engage them to help them Understand energy in terms of demographics. They tend to be retirees They tend to be living in single-family homes and they're they can afford their bill They have enough income the bill's not that high. They're satisfied with everything The technology cautious tends to be also somewhat low income average size house average size bill average size satisfaction with their utility so generally will be very difficult to engage very similar to the status quo and Then the movers and shakers have the second highest income just closely behind green champions They have the highest education They have the largest homes and the largest electric bills They are the number one constituent dissatisfied with their utility they they They don't feel like the utilities at least in the states are offering them what they want from technology So I was very interested to see some of Juliet's information about consumers wanting more from the utility in terms of technology Because right now they're just not getting it so they are going to Best Buy and they are going to Home Depot and They are looking for solutions maybe online with Amazon because the utilities At least in the past haven't been giving them that although there are many utilities in the United States now They're launching marketplaces retail marketplaces may be called online marketplaces called different things and we're doing a piece of research that'll be published Think in January called the utility platform in the future That takes a really deep dive into what the utilities need to do to engage customers with an online retail marketplace So that utility customers will start to go to that marketplace and maybe not go to Amazon or somewhere else And we'll look to the utility as a energy expert, which they should be So that's their segments though. They're all here in Ireland They just may be in different percentages, but they definitely exist everywhere. And so back to our wave six study We spoke to over a thousand consumers as we always do that gets us a 95% confidence interval with a 4% margin of error 3 to 4% margin of error and so What we did differently with this study is that we It's not like loading right sorry about that. We um We wanted to make the segments actionable we've had segments for maybe four years and Segmenting your customers is just marketing 101 But what what a lot of our utility members and the industry we're telling us is that it's great that we know the segments That's very interesting. That's very informative But we're not we don't know what to do with it And so we started making it we focused more on action how to be actionable with the segments and And I can't present all of this to you today It does get very detailed, but if you give me your business card or take mine I'll be happy to get you a copy of this research So that you can read it later but basically as I said the green champions are always engaged and the real opportunity with customers is Moving these three other segments over to the always engaged the saving seekers who want to engage around saving money But a lot of utility programs just aren't that focused on saving money Or as Juliet said a lot of the early and early smart meter deployments were operationally focused There were line-on-ons on the bill that said operations or the utilities marketing was will reduce truck rolls You'll have more efficient delivery of energy We'll be able to get your power back on more quickly very operationally focused not very motivating to consumers and Then the technology cautious again They need more education than the others do because they're interested But they don't think technology gets them there and movers and shakers who don't think utilities really are just offering much for them They're having to go out and piecemeal together smart home connected home Programs and devices on their own So it's frustrating. So I totally agree with Juliet's Study that that consumer said we want the utility to help us put together a connected home I can totally believe that Because that is a real pain point for consumers and then this this last segment the status quo That's fairly engaged when it comes to segmenting when it comes to marketing We recommend you just leave them alone and just go after the ones that will engage with you and the selectively engaged to Move them over to the always engaged and I know this is theoretical research, it's it's actually speaking to consumers directly, but it's still theoretical, but Juliet gave you a lot of good examples I'll just give you one pepco has a couple of programs where they've exceeded 50 percent enrollment in their programs in their summer Demand response and peak rewards programs and I could name a bunch more But we are able to see high levels of consumer engagement when the marketing and the messaging is right Top three benefits we always like to ask consumers when it comes to a smart group when it comes to a smart meter What is it that you care about the most we ask them? We give them a list of concerns and we give them a list of benefits and the top three benefits remains consistent just means that That hasn't changed over the seven years of giving this survey. So Saving money is number one. They want to save money They don't like waste so a lot of green champion answers would be in here Preventing and reducing outages of course as Juliet said people don't like their power to be out and With more and frequent and heavier storm events That's happening more in the US as it is everywhere and the storms are very severe and they take out power for a long time And there's a lot of backlash. I know you just had a big storm Florida had I'm sure you heard about our storms to Houston was flooded for weeks in ways never before seen But Florida also had a big hurricane and didn't get as much press But in Florida After all was said and done powers restored and the storm has gone things are back to normal group of citizens is now suing Florida power and light because They are saying what happened to the smart grid what happened to this resiliency. You promised us Why did the power go out? so That's a new problem that we're trying to figure out or I guess fpnL is But consumers don't like outages So be careful with the promises that you make with a smart grid because obviously a hurricane is gonna take out the power regardless of the resilience efforts made and Then reducing greenhouse gas emissions and if you look across the spectrum of the different Segments you can see that most of the green champions All of the green champions care about all three of those the most of any of the segments And so you've got people that are really caring about energy for reasons that they care about and Then others not so much like you can see status quo is lower And then the variation in knowledge of energy efficiency actions Changed a lot from wave 5 to wave 6. I'll point out waves wave 5 was done in 2015 I'll point out that in 2015 75% of the US population said they knew a lot about energy efficiency By 2017 that number dropped to under 60% Which was a really big drop very statistically significant Any ideas does anybody have an idea why you think that is can you just shout it out if you think you might know? control Trump no, this was pre-trump. This was earlier this year. Well actually, maybe it wasn't but it wasn't trump anything else Okay The fact is technology is getting more complicated It used to be that you would turn off a light switch and turn up your water heater and that would be Enough that was your effort, but even just in the last two years We have seen a tremendous a tremendous amount of new technology like Juliet's light bulb that the splitter the smart splitters There's so much even even in my hometown of Atlanta for example, Georgia powers my utility They have an online marketplace. They send me email pushes with their specials and They've been promoting an automated door lock that I can get an app put it on my phone by the schizmo It unlocks my door as I approach with my phone and it locks my door my front door to my house as I leave That's new technology. That's really cool Not only is new technology now making consumers feel less certain about energy efficiency, but there's also the fact that There are a Lot of energy a lot of a Lot of energy in a lot of energy information in the newspapers and articles about climate change and about energy waste and Then in Atlanta we have a better buildings program that is that is and adding energy efficiency to the building automation systems So there's just a swirl of information about energy that consumers are seeing but not participating in and now in the US we have over I think 60 million homes with a smart meter something like 50 percent of the homes have a smart meter and Utilities are just now at least in the US the way they did it was they did the operations the information technology first and now They're doing the benefits and so there is a lot of new programs getting rolled out and messaging happening that That consumers are just now starting to see and take advantage of and benefit from Now I talked a little bit about the segmentation framework and a little bit about the demographics in that segmentation But I want to just point out that There's some confusion about demographics that people think that That's the way to approach consumers that Wealthy people want the technology and where people don't so forth And so what I want you to know from this graphic is that demographics don't matter It's really the values that people have around energy that matters. There's some correlation, but it's pretty weak So for instance, you can look at the status quo person Who is a baby boomer generally and you can see that they're next the closest segment to them that technology Cautious are greatest generations, and I don't know if you understand these I just realized you may not understand these age ranges in the US, but baby boomers are my age and generally 40s and 50s and then greatest generation is 60s and up And then you can see the income levels for low like say if someone falls into a low income bracket And this is defined by the US Census Bureau This they could be a status quo. They could say I'm fine I don't want any of this great modernization stuff or they could be a saving seeker And you can see under the see what else no college So someone has no college they could be a status quo or they could be a saving seeker So you just can't The point is that you can't know by a person's demographics What they care about when it comes to energy you've got to know your customers and appreciate what they want Just a little bit about Millennials, I'm gonna skip that because I see the clock So great. I'm gonna get back to that just skip that part right here The so some key findings for the wave six research is that green champions make up the largest segment they're the most energy and clean most interested in energy and they're ready to engage so as ESB rolls out There are phase one meters and the programs that go with that these consumers will be easy to engage marketing to them around increasing energy efficiency and clean clean energy on your portfolio and then The best way to get the most consumers is selectively engaged moving them over to the always engaged So going after them for saving money or helping them with technology or helping give them advanced technologies We'll move them over into being easily Engageable and then And then last demographics don't drive consumer behavior Consumer values drives consumer behavior So I was asked to add on a little bit about Millennials We did a piece of research this summer just on Millennials. How many of you in the room are Millennials? Could I see a show of hands? So Less than 10% okay interesting stop tweeting No, actually we were asked to tweet everyone should be tweeting So what we found out what I had been saying prior to this research was that consumers With that Millennials would be the largest demographic in the United States in three to five years and What I found that is earlier in 2017 Millennials are now the largest demographic in the United States And so we we've got to get here now with this demographic this demographic differs from all other Generations quite a bit And so one some key questions we wanted to answer from this research is What are their energy issues? How do they differ from other? Generations, what do they think of their energy service provider and What offerings may interest them so just quickly a few of them are the Millennials are represented by the blue bar So and one of the questions we ask in our surveys besides interest is are you willing to pay for it because a Lot of things are not free some of these solutions are expensive And so we ask them are you willing to pay and also it teases out real interest So they're not just doing a knee-jerk answer, but they're thinking about a little bit more And so you can see that Millennials are more willing to pay by up to 75 percent Than than other generations for a whole host of things including energy Evaluations like coming into their home and doing an audit appliance evaluations for energy efficiency automated heating and cooling services and Saving suggestions via an app or website They have a very high interest in clean energy I've highlighted in red that they're willing to even pay more for it per month compared to other generations and And then they have a high interest in information. This is not news to us We use our apps a lot Millennials use their apps almost their phone almost exclusively all the time for everything and we can see here I'll draw your attention to the yellow bar The long bar. That's the other generation is saying It's important, but I'm not really gonna pay for anything like like energy usage data apps or anything else And it's fine. We may not want to charge for that But to tease out interest you'll see a lot more interest from Millennials And if this is very hard to read what we did when we tested how many devices to Millennials use You can see they use the top one the largest long blue bar. They use more than four devices or smartphone apps and home appliances very Very higher numbers than other generations look at the number of apps. They use Way more than other generations and they have a lot more appliances They just use a lot more of everything and so as we're talking about consumer engagement Understanding how Millennials think and what they do and what they want will be really key to engaging the future generations So with that I'll end it and thank you very much for your time Thank you very much Patty for that So again, if you have comments for the questions and answer session that'll be coming up in just a few moments Please use slido to do so But we have one more speaker to hear from because we have been hearing very much the insights from the United States of America So what is the situation in Ireland? Well, our final speaker in this first session or this session is Jim Gannon the chief executive of sustainable energy Authority of Ireland the SE AI and he's going to bring the Irish dimension to the discussion and present the SE AI's work on Consumer behavior analysis, so please welcome Jim Gannon Thanks for the introduction mash. Although part of me was looking forward to testing whether or not Content would triumph over identity after the initial one and I'll be relatively quick I'm going to talk about where we perceive us as a society to be today with regard to climate and energy Drop down into Ireland then as to what Ireland thinks about climate and energy and this is the society I thought the society thinks and then look at from our experience over the last number of years What do Irish people the consumer the individuals think about sustainable energy? And then look at what we're going to do over the next year or two with collaboration from others in this space So last year the business and the geopolitical dialogue was galvanized around climate change It was at the behest of Donald Trump who was looking to remove the USA from the Paris Accord I don't want to talk about that. I want to talk about the response So US business within four days Significant large US businesses not all associated with climate change said no no we are going to do this anyway Separately they didn't talk about altruism or saving the world. They talked about Strengthening competitiveness creating jobs in new markets and reducing business risk Core to business climate change from a geopolitical perspective You also saw China gladly step into the breach at Marrakesh and say we'll take on that leadership role We are now the second largest economy in the world and then at Davos the economic summit. They reinforced that statement You also have other decisions being made by economies such as India that are signals So they stopped a plan to put in 14 gigawatts of coal generation Because the price of solar was so low And if you look at the recent auctions in Mexico for the nerds in the room The price of solar has gotten even lower and a lot of jurisdictions. So again Geopolitically and from an economic perspective. It looks like this has galvanized. It's here to stay It's going to change and business and politicians do lead a certain narrative. So what about Ireland? from 2016 to 2018 our budget will have grown from about 75 million to 150 million predominantly through capital grants to people in their businesses and in their homes and the appetite is not waning Now importantly, these are self-selecting people who come to the grant who want to do this and I'll get back to that later. I Think a second important piece is even outside of our direct experience Which also includes a sustainable energy community network were doubled to 120 communities in the space of 12 months Where all we do is provide them with mentors and advice and they determine their carbon future There's an appetite there for that too. How do I determine with my community? What our future will be? Outside of that the Euro barometer survey was done This wasn't done by the Irish government writing the questions our Irish NGOs writing the questions It was the Euro barometer and they said, what do you think about climate change? So two-thirds of Irish people saw it as a very serious problem with another quarter Bringing it up to about 90% saying it was a fairly serious problem now fairly is a typically Irish word But it still means that they still thought it was a challenge We have to face about 90% of Irish people said this and separately 88% that represented an opportunity for our economy and our business and these are all of the people who buy your Products and services and who you want to employ in your business So again court of business court of society and not going away I think a place where particularly going to see this happen is around technologies It's been mentioned before the want that's in the consumer to exercise control and Increasingly their ability to do that is growing at a staggering pace I think you see EU policy reacting to that as well where the clean energy package would see someone having a Right to generate a right to a smart meter a right to export and a right to get some sort of price For that export of electricity if it comes through down to all of the national levels after negotiations And this is a fine philosophical point until you start looking at the actual cost of the technologies that will facilitate this And what the consumer will see coming down the line So again the cost curve is coming down and down and down and down and ultimately the consumer without grant support Will be able to afford these technologies if they want to do it I Think if we look at heating and if we look at Transportation and e-mobility there will be huge disruptions over the next couple of decades and it's there's an ability about that I Think in terms of electricity in the home We don't know will it be down to individuals trading on their smart apps It's likely it won't be will it be an intermediary who will come in and say we'll control some of your Appliances in the home will control when your EV charges are not and we look after that for you. Don't worry about it and another question is Will it be a traditional Utility or supply company that does that or will it be someone else who says I already provide you with broadband Telephony and television. I'll deal with your energy as well. Don't you worry about it? We'll sort it all out We don't know But disruption is coming and we need to embrace it as opposed to provide inertial forces to resist it We need to predict what will happen and try to facilitate it in a responsible way Transport is a slightly different question to me in that and if we look just at the fuel that's being used that consumer decides to use It's a really end-of-pipe solution. We move from petrol and diesel to electricity. So what we still have two million cars If you cannot immediately solve a spatial planning and a transport planning issue, then you must look at electrification So it's reasonable to do that But a second piece is we need to look beyond what we're looking at right now And as we look at automation as we look at shared ownership schemes What will the car of the future look like it is far more likely that Matt and I will be on our day jobs and An algorithm will know that I need my car between this time and this time and Matt needs a car between that time and that Time and there will be shared pools and a car will arrive where and when I need it for me to use So we can't get ourselves caught on to a set of train tracks that don't facilitate the next and the next and the next iteration But again, all of this revolves around a consumer who wants to interact with these technologies Products and services. They need to be aware of them. They need to have salience to see the value of these for themselves Then they need to trust them and the people who are providing them and finally they need to make the decision go ahead and do it So learning by doing We have lots and lots of touch points with industry and the human and their home over the last number of years It provides us with a significant insight into people's minds and how they think about energy and sustainable energy Also with industry we were just talking to them for the last 15 years The top 200 energy users in the country for the last 15 years And it was initially about energy management and systems. Now. It's about industry 4.0 With the level of digitization Automation and interaction with IOT that is going to happen How can you embed sustainable energy practices from a business driver perspective into that transition to the next stage of their evolution? I think a separate piece is in our R&D projects funded So an interesting one this year that I definitely share at Paddy was around customer segmentation in Ireland and what that means about it has meant over a number of years For us something that led us down the path of behavioral insights over the past year Was really asking ourselves the questions as to who comes to our programs So for us those who are already in our programs that's split into three general categories The aspirational who are concerned about the future. They want to do the right thing the green advocates. Let's say separately we do have a segment in Ireland around comfort and value seekers and We've a particularly association with the home in Ireland that is a societal piece And there are those that just want to invest in their home They want to make it a better place to be and a better place They can hand down to generations and the third are simply cost-driven if I spend that What will I get back in a given period of time? And the really interesting thing for us is how do we bring more people towards that basket and Separately how do we use the right levers and dials to get them to activate themselves? separately businesses and SMEs in the commercial sector have been talked about a little but perhaps not enough today in that they are also consumers and significant consumers and For all of our schemes for the research we've done into it. You need to simplify the decision Make it easy. Don't take up too much bandwidth and then the offering even if they imagine that the technical project is worth doing that It will give them savings the offering the commercial piece They need to have trust in it and trust the people who are offering it, but simplify So I'm not going to go into this in detail. I'm a civil engineer, so I'll give a quick rundown through that lens and Economics tells us that incentives matter We know that an SEI because we work in the world of grants whether you believe they're Sophisticated our blunt instruments is down to your own perspective, but they do achieve impact a Second piece around psychology and it's been mentioned before is that context matters So reducing hassle increasing trust that I spoke of and changing at times of change So people are likely to change the mode by which they commute when they move house Also, when they move house you have chances for intervention So in Germany they decided that for a particular region when someone moved house into that region They would default to a green electricity provider that they could opt out of but the default would be there and increased uptake rates from 7% to 70% of those using green electricity at that point in time An interesting piece around that is that when they went back afterwards and said now was this under the radar Did you not notice you're paying a premium? Or did you know that this decision had been made for you and did not opt out and 85% said they knew that that default had been set that it was costing them a premium and that they wouldn't opt out So the default worked and the default stuck Thirdly sociology counts cultures practices what the Joneses are doing really really counts and we know that oh power One of the experiments they ran in the States looked at whether or not writing your neighbor's performance on your bill By comparison to your own would have impact and it did 2 to 3% of a reduction on the consumer's bill which is small It's just my bill despite the fact that I have three small kids But if you multiply it by all of the people in residential premises in the country that is something of significance So these things can have impact if we look at them So for SEI what are we going to do and I'll be brief about this We're going to be very open and transparent about what we're doing any research we do we will be sharing that's our job That's what we're involved in and we've put together behavior economics team over the past 12 to 18 months We've put together an advisory board that has strong academics But also strong practitioners because what we're not going to do is research Or we're going to do is design test and implement with other actors in the system We're going to start by reviewing international precedent what has worked before what hasn't worked before because we don't want to get into the business of trying to reinvent something that has worked before and We're going to use traditional methods of behavioral insight and behavioral experimentation And we're also going to use our access to that sample size of people to say how can we test these measures? We're going to start by looking at our existing programs So how do we increase uptake in our fuel poor homes offering? How do you make sure people who are offered a free upgrade of their home actually take that on? separately looking at our BER which is our home asset rating to your house rating how do you provide an advisory report? That's tailored not just to your home as we plan to do but also to you and we're using our behavioral insights team to see how We can bring people to deeper retrofit and more people to retrofit in the first place And then finally we are looking explicitly at smart metering Are we doing that through the smart grid and smart meter implementation group? So with our Commission for regulation of utilities with the SB networks and it's looking at Injunctives norm injunctive norms, and it's also looking at defaults. So what if we defaulted that if you take one of our grants? You're opted into a smart meter, but you can opt out of it The likelihood is that in a self selecting group coming to our grants There would be a stickiness there. They'd see the value of it and they wouldn't opt out an interesting test that we could perhaps engage in The separate one is Socially we need to consider that something that works in a different jurisdiction might not work here So in Ireland anecdotally with smart meters going in people have reduced consumption in the first year by 10% The second year by 5% and they start hanging their coats on the smart meter at year three We need to find a way to make the smart meter in Ireland as important as the immersion and Although our guests might realize what that is it had such an importance and Such a narrative built around it in the home in our collective psyche It was incredibly powerful whole comedy sketches were developed around the immersion How do you make that although in a positive way the new smart meter and there are methods and there are ways to do it A second piece we're looking at is great review adoption and we're doing research on that that we will publish in the next couple of months I'm looking at the clock mat So I'll leave it there and three key thoughts policy regulation and planning must create the right environment I think that is happening albeit slowly Awareness engagement and trust And choice of the consumer will inhibit or catalyze and again we need to look through the eyes of the consumer and finally Disruption needs to be planned with the consumer and take insight from the consumer It's not going to work if we simply determine the product. They will accept and try to get them to accept it I think we'll be on that point now That's it. Thank you for listening and enjoy lunch Thank you very much, Jim I see some people are rushing off to check that they turn off the immersion at home this morning when they left Although surely they must be doing it by their apps from now. Anyway, okay We're going to have some questions coming up in slido But there are some that I want to put to our panel to start with and juliet I want to go back to you because you started with Many people do not want a smart meter, but I'd like you to explain a little bit more as to why they don't want it Yeah, and I'll I'll qualify by saying some people don't want a smart meter I don't think it's many but in the united states we faced that that number was higher than we um, we thought it was There are a lot of concerns out there around smart metering technology Some of the primary I think and patty talked about some of these things Radio frequency is often a very big concern There is a lot of association Not correctly that Smart meters are associated with cancer So that's a primary one data privacy being a huge one as well That this meter somehow can determine what you're doing in your home I've heard everything from it can see everything you're doing to its intruding I've been I've had the humor of going to some Legal events actually where people come dressed in tin foil Like tin foil hats really and think that this is somehow going to be a barrier like that. They're that physically Endangered by smart meters and there is a very interesting fact There were a couple of people if you look online that associated smart meters with aliens And I thought that was a little bit of a stretch until I realized that in actually in Scientology, there is something called an emeter and a digital meter in Scientology and people actually were drawing the connection that smart meters Somehow were associated with aliens. So I've heard everything from cancer But I would say the big the big to our um health and data privacy Over sure the two Jim. We're not really having those problems in Ireland, aren't we? Well, there were recent purchases of premises match. I think over the last two months where Scientology has certainly developed a footprint here I think in but we haven't had anyone go to meetings with the tin foil hats Or is that just restricted to the mobile phone masks not not quite yet I think I think part of it is down to what actually happens and what is reported match frankly without taking a pop at the media Um louder voices tend to get reported That's what happens the large cohort in the middle don't tend to raise their voices as much or be noted So I think you need to speak to all so you don't disenfranchise anyone But just recognize the segments you're talking to okay, but good There's a good question after coming in there from paul kenney and I'm going to put it to all of you because It says our planned smart meters don't include a display that communicates with people about their electricity use or costs Is this a missed opportunity? So how important is it that the smart meter what it actually displays? How easily understood it is Well the meters don't the meters don't display in the us information that communicates with people It's an online portal that consumers can go to That they can log into their utilities website Enter a portal and see their daily usage see how their usage changes with the weather Enroll in programs that are enabled by the smart meter like different pricing plans that Might save them money enroll in it in a demand response program that would reduce peak usage and get them a rebate There's a whole host of enablements about the smart meter So, um, I don't the meter itself isn't showing a display that benefits or informs consumers Okay, jim is that what people want or is that possible? I just don't think it's a missed opportunity yet a smart meter produces data That data goes somewhere It's a matter of bringing that data back into the home And if it can send it to a website it can send it to a website that can send it to your phone They can send it to whatever light bulb might play music and also show the color of the price of electricity So let's not presume that we've missed opportunities yet or the decisions are locked in Providing constructive suggestions about what we could do would be very very helpful I think there's enough people in the room to do that. So maybe not a missed opportunity yet So juliet, that's tries means that whatever way the information has to be given to the person in a way that's easily understood by them Yes, and I think that it is very evident in the deployments that we have seen that utilities that make information available To customers as part of the key benefits to deployments are way more successful than those that don't even those utilities That to the local utilities obviously to to those utilities that wait To display when there's huge gaps between the deployment and availability of information There are challenges So it's not just getting that availability online, but it's getting it to them early as part of the value proposition of putting out meters Okay, something else has struck me and this is very much from a consumer point of view And I'll start with you and it's juliet and I can see it been very easy to download an app But after that there might be an awful lot of work involved in converting things around the house And maybe that is something that puts people off moving towards the use of new technology How often do you find that in the states? um I think that there is I'm hearing a lot today about these expectations of the meters themselves and I think Going back to education it is really important to include the the The customer's participation in programs and availability of information as part of the deployment itself and not just an afterthought so um I You know, I would just argue that consumers need to That the utilities need to look at the meters as a platform smart grid smart metering. Am I it's a platform For all kinds it's it's a wireless network, right of which the utilities can just start building from It's only the beginning of a smarter energy future Activator it does nothing it brings up a question there from emir who owns the smart meter data and with whom is it shared or sold to Do you want to take that? Um, well the consumer owns their data many utilities have it on lockdown in the us. That is an issue that We're grappling with because utilities have a lot to secure. There's cyber security. There's hacking Um, there's concerns that if the wrong people get the data it could negatively impact consumers So a lot of utilities have locked down the data that the smart meter generates and allows only the consumer themselves to see only their data No third parties. No third party innovation. No retail market There's a nonprofit that was created called mission data and their mission is to Encourage utilities and to help regulators require utilities to allow the data to be shared With third parties if the consumer releases it And then there's another nonprofit called the green button alliance That has created standards for data for utilities to put the data in a specific standard format That third parties can download and then innovate from maybe create gamification apps Maybe have rebates or a point system for saving energy at certain times of day. All that needs data But the consumer owns their data the utility manages the data and and race and basically that's an that's an ongoing issue Right now, do you want to come back to what I was just asking there about with juliet? And perhaps again, I just use the example you a lot of people are perhaps Reluctant to change utilities or service providers in ireland that there's a degree of inertia times Other than I think it's hard. I'll give an example of present I've been switching bank getting set up on internet banking But my new bank has proven to be an extraordinarily difficult and unexpectedly difficult experience And is that the thing with many people? Perhaps they think that yes, it's easy to get an app for a smart meter But they'll have to have lots of things done around the house to connect it to the app Yeah, we experience it in our programs and separately it is called hassle factor in behavioral sciences And it is a major issue if people perceive there to be a hassle or a change or something deviate from the norm Even if it's temporary it can be a challenge And again, that's where you have to perhaps Induce people towards that change show them examples of people who've changed and really bring them to that choice And make that choice easier to implement. So it is a challenge. There's no question And interesting one there from tony has a dangerous impression when created That's as smart meters of themselves alone will bring about all the change has been spoken about and that many more things are needed Yes, I think lots more things are needed. I think margarit and fairness pointed it out earlier It's not just a smart meter Well, I agree with juliet's comment a second ago. The smart meter is just a platform It's just the beginning as I said in my comments the utilities in the us have launched smart meters I guess many utilities are six years fully deployed And they're just now launching the programs the software applications the data access The innovations that the smart meters bring but the smart meter is just the beginning. It's it's it's infrastructure Jim there's a question coming up directly for you and the seai Why are you still offering grants for oil and gas boilers with controls locking people into what's described as an outdated and dirty technology For the next 20 years. Great. I think typically from anonymous the question has arisen, but I'm very happy to take it and I think I think you have to look back at the the nascent form of the better energy schemes where they looked to Increase energy efficiency and save people money and separately then also decarbonize So the oil and gas boilers were initially an inducement For people to get a more efficient boiler by 30 40 percent in some cases But also to put in heating controls, which you had to do which again increases efficiency significantly in the home So would meet your Our efficiency challenges, but perhaps not the decarbonization challenges What I would say is ask me that question in six weeks time Six weeks time and I think we'll have a different discussion around it then Change takes time, especially for supply chains and habits have been built up And change away from initial set defaults can also take time So it's something that Isn't isn't Out of our line of sight or focus okay You also mentioned the very last slide you looked at electronic vehicle electric vehicles as well Which is interesting because I was chatting with oliver after our last session about this In that we're talking about the move from petrol and diesel to electric vehicles But the bigger change may be coming with self-driving cars in the next five to ten years And I suspect that when that happens Every one of those self-driving cars will be an electric vehicle But the bigger shift will have come is that we won't be charging cars outside our own front door We will just have a car delivered to us as and when we want it like a self-driving taxi service I agree and it genuinely is one of these naughty problems where you can't see the timeline of change If you start looking at some industries that are in the area though Let's say uber who have ordered I forget the number But it's a significant number of new Volvo cars in the last two weeks that are self-driving cars It brings you to a point where you think if someone like uber Who is based around passenger transport as a service is looking at autonomous driving What really are they getting at so I do think there's an inevitability about it I do think it may only work in certain conditions I suspect that first movers will be in an urban environment Short journeys a lot of individual users You can move cars around quite quickly between point to point in rural Ireland It may be more difficult to execute something like that Although we cannot leave rural Ireland behind So I do think that that is definitely coming transport as a service at a passenger level the timing of it I don't know Juliet interesting one from Gary in the national University of Ireland Galway Why are issues and solutions predominantly framed in economic terms when environmental and social concerns are equally if not more important I think that it is important to go back to the quantifying of the customer experience I don't think there are necessarily separate issues Social cultural We're talking about when we when we talk about technology technology has this amazing benefit to have metrics associated with it Because you can suddenly data analytics and the advancements of data analytics really just makes everything Information widely available and I think that's the greatest benefit by the way to AMI So when we talk about education and you know valuing education versus economical decisions I think it is important to understand that there are significant and significant Economic benefits that you can drive some social and cultural. They're not separate. They could absolutely be intertwined Okay, I see another one there says the smart meter technology needs to become as simple as watching the news Therefore an app on a smart tv would make data accessible to the whole family I don't know about that I have four teenagers and one yet to be a teen and with the amount of hot water they want to use I want to control it of my mobile phone rather than letting them control it of theirs Quite a few people think in those well back to your party that smart meter is not enough And that there needs to be more done to explain to consumers the need for peak shifting grid stability Their role in demand response. That's a pretty big ask though, is it? Yeah, but I completely agree with it It's not enough and that's one reason we're gathered here today, right? Is to is for esb and iie to bring in people to talk about What efforts have been made elsewhere that have worked with consumer engagement? How do you educate consumers? How do you build energy literacy? Where is the technology taking us the smart meter is just the beginning And so that is why I mentioned we have a website. We have fact sheets We have youtube videos and we have social media programs I'm sure that esb and its partners will be doing those same things So I don't think anyone is saying that smart meter technology is enough Okay, another interesting one given that we have a larger segment of our population Renting rather than owning their own homes. How is this all going to work for people who rent? Let's start with you Jim and that it's a problem we face right now to be honest whether it's the The execution of valid building energy ratings in the rental sector or whether it's down to upgrading efficiency In rented homes. It is hard to get the landlord cohort to change So unless there is a stick approach through regulation of some kind or a carrot approach through an inducement I'm not quite sure because in that instance You need to convince the landlord to make the decision So you need to communicate to a business mind as opposed to the consumer mind And then you will have the renter or lessee able to make the decisions that would help to reduce Juliet we have brown sand customers are relaxed about sharing their data with the tech giants Why is there a reluctance for energy data? Is there a trust issue? Yes, I think any data right now with all the wonders of data analytics also comes all this fear That your data is becoming available that you're vulnerable to any kind of hack or security threat And I think that any type of usage data or personal information I think people feel that their energy use is a personal thing And I think that they feel that making that available to anybody other than Who they choose to make it available is a problem Jim, this is definitely for you from Kieran What do we learn about people's views in Ireland from the discussion report of the citizens assembly and climate change? I I think that it didn't come as a surprise to a lot of people people are engaged people are informed and people want change And they're impatient for change I think that we need to match that with ambition in the various authorities utilities semi-states And political circles that we have It's hard to implement change quickly though, and you can make mistakes Easily so I think we have to respond to that challenge, but I don't think anyone was surprised by it necessarily It was encouraging to see the level of engagement there And that's where I'm going to leave it juliet patty and jim. Thank you all very much for your presentations here this morning