 Introduce yourself and then we can go from there. Yeah, my name is Henry Parrot. I'm the owner, operator, Parrot's gun shop in police supplies in Waterbury, Vermont. And from there, Henry, I guess right now, and somebody else may have some other questions, but interested in basically how it works when somebody comes into your shop and buys a gun and maybe give in to the three-day waiting period type thing, different steps that may or may not happen through that time. Well, the first thing when a customer comes in, they must be positively identified. And most easiest way is a Vermont Polo driver's license in which we verify that it is the person in the picture. We verify that that is who is coming in to purchase the firearm. So from there, they fill out a form called 4473 and they answer a series of questions a little further into the identification process or security number, height, weight. And then from there, we do what we call a federal background check on that person. It's conducted by the FBI. What we do is we take that information that has been supplied to us and we transfer it to the FBI computer. And what happens is there's three typical responses. There's a proceed, there's a deny, and then there's, or it could be a delay. So a proceed is obviously they can purchase the firearm. The deny means no. The denied file, I went to a seminar by the ATF. They have a separate computer with millions of names in it that are known felons, bad people who should not have a firearm. And it's pretty much instant when you hit it, it will come back denied because that's the first computer system that it searches. If not, then it will go into the next system and look a little deeper. If there's a hiccup, if you will, and a hiccup is pretty big, a hiccup can be a common name. Last I knew there was approximately 50,000 John Smiths in the United States. So out of that 50,000 John Smiths, I'm sure there's some bad ones, probably convicted felons, people who should not own a firearm. So what it does, it puts it into a three-day, three-business-day status. It doesn't count that day, so if I did one today and came back delayed, tomorrow is the start of the three-business days. So you have three full business days, weekends, holidays, they don't count. The other issue, so if somebody came in on a Monday, they wouldn't be approved for four days, really. Because it's three complete business days. And then we can deliver the firearm on the fourth day. And it's all documented through the computer when that firearm can be delivered. And this is all according to the FBI. Another reason people get put on a delay status other than common name is if they have a top secret clearance in the military, I've tried to inquire why. And the best answer I can get is because when they do the background check, it shows that an in-depth background check has been done. But it doesn't show why. So it takes a little bit of time to figure out it was because they applied for top secret clearance. So those are the three biggest. Or the other reason is they can have a restraining order. There's other reasons, but the bottom line is it's a three-day delay to do a further research. So those ones that were delayed and it's because of the in-depth check, they do eventually get approved? Yes, I would have to say yes. Sometimes, for whatever reason, it can't go beyond the three business days. But for the most part, I believe the last statistics. The three-day is cleared up 97%, 98% of the time within those three business days. And they'll come back with a yes or a no within those three days. And we are required by law to go back into the computer system. So if you were put on delay and there was no response and you came in on the fourth day, we still have to take that one extra step and go back into the computer system to verify any additional information which may have come forward. A couple questions. So have you run into a situation where an individual is delayed because on their, maybe you don't know what the delay is, but because they have a misdemeanor assault charge and there's some time that needs to be spent to figure out if that's related to domestic violence, I don't understand if that's one of the other kind of big areas where you might have delayed, but I wonder if you personally have. Well, we ask because I also have experience in the law enforcement field for the city of South Burlington. So what will happen sometimes is if they do have an assault charge, simple assault, what they need to say police, I think what happens is the FBI will contact the Vermont State Police and they'll pull the record to find out if it was, you've got a scuffle over a football game with one of your buddies who've been drinking being a simple assault or if it was a simple assault on a family member that would be part of the domestic violence. So back in the old days, it was simple assault. It was a simple assault when they really break it down. Do they still do that? Is my understanding that it's still not broken down? I believe it is now broken down. I believe, I would swear to it. Yeah, it'd be interesting to double check that. So the other thing is, have you been in a situation where somebody after the three days has been determined to be a prohibitive person? Do you get involved in that at all? Are you notified that, well, I assume that the first question once they figure this out is, did you turn over the firearm after the three days? Yes. So let's say like a 10th day they figure out, oh, this person should have been denied. So yes, I have been involved in a couple of those. So after the three business days, we can deliver on the fourth day. They have to go back in a test. They have to sign on penalties of surgery. The answers are still correct. And then we can deliver the firearm. We have to re-identify and discern our schedule. And then we have had not very many, a couple, three, four, where the ATF will call and say they're calling on the status of John Smith, date of birth. We pull the paperwork and said, yes, we did deliver the firearm on this date. So what typically happens, they send a local ATF agent in. They get the paperwork and they go and they take the firearm away. And or they charge them also because it was his perjury if you lie on that board. And it's pretty simple the way the forms are set up with fingerprints and palm prints and signatures and identification to have good evidence. So there's been a couple cases where the ATF has called me. They did a follow-up to see if I delivered the firearm and I did. And within a few hours, the ATF agent will come in, pull the original form, see what we can remember to identify the person. You know, typical crime scene investigation because it is a crime. And then they will go after that person. And then it kind of, I lose contact because they can't tell me anything. Sure. So through the years you've had two, three, four of those? I would probably say four. Just guessing. You could probably tell me pretty close how many years, but probably not how many gun sales. Well, of course, Vermont went to the record keeping, the Brady checks in the backgrounds in 94, 95. So I would say from that period, I've been in business 38 years ago. It didn't happen in the beginning. Right. Because the records weren't computerized. So lately, saying the last 10 years to be safe and benefit of the doubt, I'll say maybe four. Selena? You know, my question got answered through Barton's line of questions. Okay. We've got to a lot of things. So I'm wondering the times that it's come back to know. It comes back to know a lot more than a perceived and then when they go back. So 5% of the time, it's a low number. Okay. It's a low number. And you hear that right away to YouTube? Yes. It's pretty much instant. And then you have to communicate that to the person? Yes. How does that go? A lot of times they try to get into, well, why? Right. And I go, well, they don't tell us. So because of my law enforcement background, I can talk to them. I say, you don't have to tell me anything. Right. But did you ever have a restraining order? Did you ever get in a motor vehicle crash where there was serious bodily injury? You know, I tried to, I did have one guy go, yeah, I was in a, I was a kid in college. And I got in a serious crash and people got hurt. And I said, well, that could be a felony depending on a lot of circumstances. So they go, oh, so what I do is I try to send them down to safety's headquarters, VCIC, and then they can get a record on themselves. Right. But people don't get angry with you about it? Not really. The people, there's two classes of people. People like the college kid who maybe got into a car crash 20 years ago and injured something. Yeah. Didn't really think about that as being a felony. And then there's people who come in who kind of hoping the system would fail them and they'd be able to leave with the fire. And I remember when we heard about, when we were taking testimony about a gun bill a few years ago, there was a witness who talked about his brother being very suicidal and going and getting, I mean, obviously he wasn't on a list. Are there ever times that you have sort of questioned, someone's not on a list, but they're obviously distraught, and what, like how much leeway you have in these circumstances? Well, we have a thing called dealer denied. And I have used it. And I have instructed my employees that when the hair stands up on the back of your neck, there's something out of place, and I'm not around, they go on dealer denied, which are a dealer, a holding pattern, you know, delay, dealer delay. And we blame it on the federal government. Ah, you see, you got put on the play. We got to blame the federal government. You know, so we kind of blame them, just take the heat off us. And I have turned certain things over to law enforcement, straw purchases, certain things you look for, and I'll contact the chief in that hometown, and they go, oh my God, yeah, we've been kind of looking for them. You said straw purchase? It's a straw purchase. Yeah, straw purchase is, say, I'm a convicted felon, and I come in with my girlfriend, and I'm kind of looking and going, yeah, that's a nice one there, but you don't really touch it. And then, so the girlfriend comes over and goes, hey, I'd like to buy this. Pro-street beverage then. What's that? There are people that go into pro-street beverage and purchase. Yeah, so it's a straw purchase. And if we get any information, anything like that, we click on dealer delay until we can contact, and we've been very successful in preventing straw purchases. Then a young gentleman came in, and I know the family, and he was trying to purchase a firearm. He had quite no idea what he wanted. There was all these indicators that you pick up on. It just doesn't seem right. I put him on delay, called the family, and it was, oh my God, they came right down. And I said, now the problem is, I know you, I know the family, so we got to do something, so they called him back in and talked to him. And they got him the help, and he's reliable. It sounds like your law enforcement background is really helpful. It is, but it's also a liability nowadays with just about anything you do. You know, it'd be so quick to be sued over anything that, not just me, but any, I'm friends with all the gun dealers in Vermont, they don't want to take the chance. So my rule is, you know, exercise on rule of caution. You know, just, if something's out of place, just click dealer delay, blame it on the government, see what happens. So it does happen. Is there any training for somebody that's newly opening up a gun shop? Because it sounds like you've got some really wise advice. Yeah, there's some courses, National Shooting Sports Foundation, some of these other groups will have guide you through. I mean, the process of trying to take the next step and open an indoor shooting range, which is a new venture for Vermont. And I need, my staff needs training and guidance. And those are the folks that are trying to help them. So how often would you say you have a sale that goes through the three days and you haven't gotten back a yay or a nay on the background check? Very few. I think that's what I was referring to when I said about four. So after that three day you can deliver. I think it's probably been about four and ten years. But just after the three day period, you could make the decision whether or not to sell because you haven't heard back. Yes. So do they get back to you if they figure out that no, this person was fine? They send you the unique identification number? Well, we get a transaction number almost like a credit card approval instinct. And it ties everything together, that transaction. So they will call, they can call 30 days a day in reference transaction number. Did you deliver the firearm? Yes. On what day? And that's when they'll come pull the actual paperwork. But do they get back to you if they have determined that the person was not Abraham the person? Do they get back to you and say, yeah, that one was fine? They have, but it's not the same as if they're not. Sure. It's not a priority to say they're fine. Right. No, you wouldn't think that they would. But they do once in a while. Okay. They do. So just a couple other questions. Do you have any sales that involve somebody having a unique personal identification number under the voluntary appeal file? It's a, I don't know, I think when you were a couple years ago, you talked about this a little bit as well, that there's this process that if you've been denied before or you've been delayed because of your name and you want to streamline getting your future firearms, that you can go through this process that I don't know how involved it is. Are you familiar with that? Yeah, yeah. It is quite a process. You have to be fingerprinted. There's a whole, it's an appeal process. It's some of the people I know have hired attorneys. My brother-in-law got caught up. His name is William Mallon. It's not really a common name, but apparently there's one serving time for murder in California. And then he died while he was in prison. Somehow, all of a sudden, and he had purchased quite a few firearms. We go through the same background. Jack, all of a sudden you get denied. Couldn't figure out why. So he had to go through the appeal process. He was fingerprinted. Maybe photograph, but I don't know that for sure. But definitely fingerprinted. Copies of your driver's license versus, you know, all kinds of documentation you have to send it to the government. It takes about six months. And then if you're cleared, if you're not the person that is dead in California, then what they have is what they call a UPIN. It's a unique personal identification number. And then you put that in when you fill out the form. And then we put it in the background check. So it kind of goes right to that, the correct person. Right to that pile that has the UPINs. So you still check, obviously, the ID of that. They don't just present the number. Oh, yeah. No, definitely. Yeah. Because, you know, if somebody found somebody's wallet and they had UPIN number on it, you wouldn't allow them to come in by gun. So you could still have to go through the exact same process. One extra step. So there's no special consideration for relatives? No. Well, no. I mean, you know, we have high-ranking military officials that I get put on. We have police officers. We have had a chief of police in uniform one day. Get denied. It happens. And then you have to fight to have your rights restored, even though it's not your mistake. The government made a mistake and they take your rights away. But here he is in full uniform carrying a firearm. Yeah. He couldn't buy one. And he had to go through that whole UPIN problem, that process. So hypothetical. Three days goes by. You sell the firearm, transfer it, whatever the terminology is. Turns out this person should not have a firearm. It's the feds that are going to investigate that from there. Yes. And how quick do they get on that? I hate to give a real time frame because it doesn't happen a lot. I would say within 24 hours they're on it. So it could have already been a week or two and then they finally get the response back. And I say probably within 24 hours they're one of the local agents out of Burlington investigating. Within 24 hours of you getting notification that they're not supposed to have the firearm. And internally, maybe it's even quicker. I don't know. Maybe I'm the last chain that gets notified. I don't know. So you wouldn't be notified to notify the FBI then that they would have? Yeah, the ATF would take care of all these people. So that happens, they're notified before you are? I don't know. Okay. Well, maybe I am notified first because the first question, did you deliver the firearm? If I say no, well, end of story. But if I do say yes, then it's a priority. But even if I do say no, the ATF agent comes, gets the form because that means that person lied on the form. So they will look at the form, they'll look at why he was denied. He did six armed robberies in Springfield Mask. Well, the bad guy shouldn't have done. Then they will go after that person for perjury lying on that form. Do you know the penalties around that? Pardon? Do you know the penalties around that? I really don't. It's a federal law. Right. So what happens with the individuals that are immediately denied? And they have filled out this form and presumably could have perjured themselves. The local agent gets a copy of that form. They're notified. My understanding is that whenever a Vermont gun dealer gets a denial, it shoots it to the Burlington office. That's where I believe all the agents are housed out of Burlington. ATF? ATF. So there's an agent that's in charge of denials. So we'll come across. And then, you know, because you hear how hard work the federal prosecutors are. They don't have time to do anything. What the agents will do is they screen it. Why was this guy denied? Did he lie on the form? Well, we go back to the kid that was in college. I've hurt somebody 20 years ago. He has a clean record of rescues. Are they going to prosecute him? No. Are they going to talk to him? They might give him a phone call. Hey, just let you know you shouldn't be trying to buy any more guns. You know, and then maybe they'll even say you should get a record from the state police. Just that way you know what you're looking at. The guy that robbed 7-Eleven since Springfield Mass, they're going to say, hmm, and they may not go right after him, but they'll use it. They have it now. So they'd either contact him, do something with it, or maybe he's being investigated in another case and they use it. You know, there's a lot of what-ifs. But they do do something with them. They don't just sweep them under the carpet. So I have a tangential question. Not really about this bill. I'm just wondering how often are you getting individuals who are coming in for a private sale to have you do the check on the background on the next system? We might average one a week. So the service is available, though? People do get to come in. We often service. Yeah. Oh, one a week? Okay, interesting. So it's something you've been in the business of while. You're a law enforcement trained. Are there laws that you think would make it easier for you to do your job and not be selling them to the people that you know? Or not just you, but other gun deals? Is there anything that you see as something that would be helpful? Well, when you said to sell firearms to people I know, that's where you get into being subjective. And we can't do that. We have to go by the federal yes or no system. And then other sellers, not knowing the box. Are there glitches in the system or things that would make it easier to, just like you're like, hey, it's the best? Like are there things that if we put in place, it would take some heat off of you that the state could sort of own? Well, in my test fight last year, you know, I said one of the biggest things I would support and I think every gun dealer in Vermont would support and I would help to get you there is to skew everything toward the criminal and not the law-abiding citizen. When you have a convicted felon, when you have somebody, yeah, go after that person as a deterrent. These laws that are being proposed, they only apply to law-abiding citizens. And that just hinders my job. It hinders everything. So how would you see it play out then? What would that look like? Going after the criminals and prosecutions. And not the others. Right, like how... How do I see it? Well, we would need to fund the ATF or maybe the State Police Task Force with an ATF task force. And they go after these people who are bad people that shouldn't have a firearm. I don't think anybody in Vermont would complain about that. The people that are complaining are law-abiding citizens that their rights are being chipped away. And what about the person that's on a, like, they have a belief from a views order or they may not be sort of listed as somebody who's robbing 7-Eleven or the really distraught person that you kind of... So my understanding is that the sheriffs are the holders of the restraining orders and that they have to report those to the federal government. So they aren't in the system. That's my understanding. So somebody, I do a background check on you and you're from Washington County in Sandoval has reported that there's a restraining order against you. And did we hear Friday that actually they go to BCIC? Just to benefit yourself. Sorry. I'm Chris Herrick, Deputy Commissioner of Public Affairs. And for the record, I purchased weapons from Henry Shultz. The holding stations is a bit of a different issue and I don't know how detailed we want to get. I'm probably not too deep because we have to have Eric on our next... But we're going to have you back talking about... Yeah, we can do that. However, the essence of what you said is correct. It's entered into the NCIC database. Can I just ask one thing? Yeah. So this six months that if you have an identical name or whatever that pops up in this system, it takes six months or more for that person to get cleared. The person that's lack of a better word, innocent, doesn't have a problem before that person can purchase a firearm. No. So the person may have a similar name, date of birth, whatever, with criminal history. Most of the time 95, 98% is cleared up within the three business working days of the federal government. It's that one time that it's got to go beyond. Then what happens is if John Smith, date of birth, whatever, is a good guy, he's a police officer, he would apply for what they call a U-Pin. It's almost like a TSA pre-check, if you will. They kind of pre-screen you. And what they do is they give you an authorization number. And then when you come back into the shop, you fill out Smith, John, date of birth. But then there's a block, U-Pin. And then you take your old wallet out and you type in your number. When that form, we transmit it to the federal government, we put that U-Pin number in. And what it does is, because a more in-depth background check has been done on you, they've identified you with fingerprints. You identified yourself with a photo driver's license to me. Everything matches. It pushes you through the system. Thank you. So that process to get a U-Pin, it can be an appeal process if you have been denied, right? Or it could be a process that it seems like every time you go, it takes three days. You can get a U-Pin without having been denied necessarily. If you just want to expedite the process because you have a common name. I don't believe so. Now it could be wrong. But I don't believe that is why it was set up. Because what would happen is, I think it would probably overburden the government with people who just want to streamline the system. So I think it was set up. And I should have brought a folder with me. But again, there's rules and regulations about it. You could be right, but I don't think it was set up for that. I think it was set up for this long delay process where you've been denied. I don't think you can on a delay. I think it's denied. Okay. No, I appreciate that. Great. Thank you. Appreciate it. I think we're going to stay on the record and have Eric jump into the witness seat and get right on 5.79. Okay. On that 31 page. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And if we could let Eric go through the bill and hold our questions to the end. Because we're actually scheduled to get done at 4.20. We'll go a couple minutes over. Tommy didn't have a chance to ask during the proceeding. But I asked him, do some people get stalled because of multiple background checks. And he says they did. He said it's almost like a credit check. The more you get. The more cards you apply for, the more you get or whatever. That will affect your score. So if you work for two or three different school districts. And each school district says they want to do a background check. You go to buy a gun. And they go. And it's entirely different. Interesting. Anytime you're already here. Yeah. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Patrick Kiergant with Ledge Council to talk about age 5.79. I think one of the... I was hoping for another document. I don't think he made it through. So I said, honestly, is that like something that didn't make it up here? So it's going to make it a little harder to do this. So... I'm not sure if I can put my email on this iPad. So I'll just... Well, we can look at the document itself another time. I'll just turn it over as quick as I could. So you remember we were talking this morning about the general reclassification system, right? This whole... Put the criminal offenses into A, B, C, D, and E for felonies and misdemeanors. That kind of thing. All based on the... Essentially the punishment that's involved in the offense, right? How long is the imprisonment or the amount of the fine. So, we were also talking about how well... There's still the... The San Francisco Commission has still had the authority to go through the sort of list of all the different criminal offenses and think about, well, how do we want to maybe address certain groups of offenses differently? They can still make specific decisions about how... How sentences should be set up for particular types of offenses. So it did that for a couple different types, including property offenses. And that's what we're looking at right now. When we say property offenses, it could be theft, for example, embezzlement, fraud, passing bad checks. Any offense that involves taking money or taking property, that sort of thing. The way the statutes are set up now, they're frequently the offense... The punishment, I should say, turns on how much money is involved in the offense. So, by steal $500, the punishment will not be as severe as if by steal $10,000, right? So, an odd feature of the current criminal code is that many times, not always, but many times, the difference, the threshold between whether a property crime is a misdemeanor and whether it's a felony is $900. I think it's $900 or below, or below $900. $900 or below, it would be a misdemeanor. In other words, you know, the larceny of $900 or less, if the misdemeanor were larceny of over $900, it would be a felony. The reason for that is that the reason that $900 is a sort of odd number, as you might guess, it was a compromise between $751,000. The Legislative Study Committee looked at probably a dozen years ago and they spent some time in the interim trying to figure out how to organize these property offenses and that was a compromise between those two notes. That ended up being $900. So, obviously, sort of an odd number, but in other cases, you'll see that it's not necessarily that $900 is a threshold all the time, but it's pretty common. So, what the Criminal Code Committee decided to do was to take it apart and say, okay, with many property offenses, they're going to connect the penalty to the amount of value of property involved. So, you see in that list, you see it's an ominaged $5.79 right now. In the very beginning, we have a section that's going to go in the same group section we looked at the other previously this morning, which is where all these classification provisions are found. They're going to be proposed to have one specifically for property offenses. So, Zaro, how is this tiered system going to work? You can see the value of the property is less than $100. It's going to be a Class D misdemeanor. And if you remember, if we can do it quick. There we are. So, Class D misdemeanor, 30 days, $1,000 penalty. What do you see in that? So, that's if it's, I think $100 or less, right? If it's, if it involves, if it's less than $1,000, but $100 or more, so somewhere between $199 say it's going to be a Class C misdemeanor, which is six months. You see that? So that's how this is work. We're tiered and connect if it's a, if it's less than $10,000 and equal to or greater than $1,000. So we moved up one more step between $1,000 and $10,000. It becomes a Class A misdemeanor. Let me go back and see what that is. Class A misdemeanor is two years, still misdemeanor. See, we're working our way up here. We've got two more I think. So if it's a, if it's between $100,000 and $10,000, it becomes a felony. So it's going to go over there. Remember there, the difference between misdemeanor and felony is two years. That remains the same. So it's obviously going to be over two years. Class D felony for an amount that's between $10,000 and $100,000. That is a five-year penalty, $50,000. And lastly, if it is equal to or greater than $100,000, then it's a Class C felony, which is 10 years. So that's the proposed setup. So a lot of times, or you'll see not every time, but a lot of times these property offenses, the penalty is going to depend on how much value is involved, how much was stolen, how much was counterfeited, how much was fraudulently obtained. And you'll see, I don't know if there's any reason necessary to go through this long list of offenses in this bill, especially given that you've only got a few minutes left, but just to give you a flavor of how this works. So here's an example. Section 2 of the bill shows you how this is done throughout the bill. So the crime is in place, fraudulent use. You've been tempted to fraud, you've been tamed or attempted to obtain money, property services, or anything else of value. But you sort of credit card, they know or should have known was stolen, forged, wrote, canceled, and authorized. So you're obtaining property with a fake credit card, right? Now the current penalty, it just happens to be in this case that there are two different statutes. So if you look at the next statute, what is the current penalty? Well, right now, it all depends on whether $500 is the value that's used to distinguish the penalty. So right now, if it's, sorry, I misspoke, that's the fine. If the $50 is the threshold that distinguishes what the penalty is. So if it's $50 or less that we used to fake credit card for, it's a six-month misdemeanor with a $500 fine. Everybody see that? That's on line six and four. If it's more than $50, then it's a one-year misdemeanor with a $1,000 fine. Everybody see that? So that's the current status. Keep in mind the maximum penalty there for this crime is what? One year, right? That's the maximum. Under the new proposal, this would be sentenced pursuant to what we just described, this threshold we described. So the maximum penalty goes up to 10 years. Everybody see that? Because now, if it was over $100,000, remember we just went through that whole tiering system based on the amount. If it's over $100,000, I'm not sure how many people do that. Credit card, but if it were to happen, then you have a 10-year penalty possible. I think if it was between $10,000 and $100,000, that would be five years. And if it were, and it goes all the way down. So now, it's also true. Remember the minimum penalty right now under the existing law, even if it's less than $50, you get a six-month misdemeanor no matter what, right? But see that? Maximum six months. But so under this new proposal, you can also have lesser penalties under certain terms because let's say it's less than $100, remember, then that's a classy misdemeanor which is only 30 days. So a smaller offense, a smaller value used in the commission of the crime, will get you a smaller penalty than under existing law whereas a more value used in the crime could conceivably get you a greater penalty than under it. That's kind of an approach that's often reflected in the bill. So I think just to help folks when they are walking through this, if you get the actual report of the sentencing commission, there is a table there that lists all the crimes and on the side it has notes and it tells you if there's less time, more time, et cetera. It makes little notes there on the side. So to follow along when we get more into this, I suggest also having that on hand. Yes, I intend to do that. Sam, to get posted, but I think I lost in the shuffle. So it's not on the website currently, but I'll resend that to Mike. So could you show us another example where we don't go to that categorization scheme and just say, hey, this one's a class C misdemeanor which is playing out why that is the case on some of them? I'm authorized to remove the books from the library. Yes, I saw that one too. That's a good one. That's a good one right here. Oh yeah, I think it's counterfeiting paper money. No? I think that page 6. Well, the interesting thing I noticed is this, about the counterfeiting paper money offense. This thought was interesting. Line 15, it's a 14-year sentence under current law. What meaning is this? It's an odd one. Page 5, counterfeiting paper money, which I was curious about. I poked around in a little bit. It's been on the books in one form or another since the early 19th century. And for some reason it has a 14-year, somewhat odd. But whoever, whatever, then again, someone could say $900 was odd too. We know what happened. So these are all products of... Well, I think we should keep something like that because if you're using paper money still, shouldn't it be punished extra? It's a policy. That's an equity issue. I guess it is. So here's an example of the one that you have mentioned that doesn't go to the peer system. Just essentially, that keeps it. So possession. This is use of credit card skimming devices. The relatively recent offense. This one has not been on the books since the 19th century. Credit card skimming devices are a more recent tool. So right now you see if you knowingly and with the intent to defraud possess this one of the scanning device and I think if I remember this right, I remember when this was passed and then something, it's like a... You probably know this better than I do perhaps. It's like when you use your credit card at a grocery store or something, there's a device that somehow copies your credit card information in that exact moment and can then skim your number off and then your card can be used later on. I think they're more common at a gas station. People have them specially made and they'll actually be like a cone or a carbon copy of the plastic piece that sticks out of the gas pump and it'll just clip right over the top of it. And then they come along later and blow it out and it's got our credit card to go on it. I'm pretty sure those are some of the more common ones. Yeah, yeah. Well these are exactly... This statute is intended to address exactly that sort of situation and you can see when it goes past in line 6 and 7 and lines 14 and 15 it specifically is a 10-year felony with a $10,000 fine to use or possess one of these things. So as far as the why so I'm going to have to defer to the sentencing commission on this as to why it is that they chose particular offenses but I can tell you the mechanics though what is going on here then you see that it's different. It says in this case if you do that you commit a class C felony. It does not have the language that we're just looking at which most of these sections have which is shall be sent pursuant to 52, 55 what that means is that they're going to be fit into that tiered system we just talked about. In other words, all depends on how much money was involved. In certain particular instances there's several of them in the bill in particular property crimes the sentencing commission chose not to go with that tiered system. The penalty that you get is based on how much money was involved in this case for example how much money you skimmed using this credit card skimming device doesn't vary based on how much money was involved instead it says this is a ten year felony all the time. This is what's always be a ten year felony and it's not going to be any less if you only used it for a hundred bucks and it's not going to be any more if you only used it for a hundred thousand. So there's a there are several instances in the bill that you'll see where the commission chose to keep the penalty as it was essentially and have it consistently be that way and not vary in the same sort of way and I think probably it will be something that I want to hear from members of the sentencing commission I suspect they'll probably talk you through those and let you know why it wasn't each instance they decided that it was better to go this route and go with the classification That makes sense it's kind of a big picture of what's going on and then the rest of the bill is exactly that with each offense it either correlates it with this classification system based on the amount of money involved in the offense or it says well pick your case there's another one right there for example or we'll decide to keep it as a consistent penalty based on the conduct rather than at it very based on the amount I did notice that this is just something I'm going to say now so we remembered it as or maybe you already know the answer because I have a lot of notice that as I was looking up I was thinking about the difference between passing a bad check and false tokens I think it's 2003 so 2003 there we are false tokens this is a off can be used for a bad check situation someone passes a bad check but it has to be you'll see it has to be the intent to defraud and it has to be also on line 6 you have to obtain you actually have to get the thing from the other person for the false check for the bad check whereas under the bad check statute 2022 you don't have to have the intent to defraud you just have to do it knowingly and it doesn't matter whether you get anything back for it you just pass the bad check that's the thing the penalty is a lot less so I think it came up for me was how come bad why bad checks isn't in the proposal correct me well bad checks is not in the proposal great it's not in the chart oh well we probably need to put that one in there it's possible to miss it because I think this is one of the examples of why they are trying to rationalize this because they can charge often the same behavior with 10 year and I think bad checks is like one year that's right exactly and it's not that difference of behavior if at all right and this is to try to kind of restrict a little bit the discretion that prosecutors have right so it doesn't make a difference as far as the penalty yeah yeah it makes sense so one thing I don't think you hit on that I think is going to be pretty important for our continued discussion on this is or I zoned out when you hit on this and I missed it I probably I don't know it is the on page 2 lines 9 to 11 each subsequent offense to classification shall be increased by one class oh no I did not mention that because that that right there is going to certainly be an area for discussion I know that for instance the defenders are not a fan of that concept and that might be something that we're going to need to tinker with the other thing that's possible is to decide whether whether we want to have a class B or a class D and C felonies for those levels or if we want to go class B and D that's quite a benefit to me just for just for the the tiered system oh I said expectable there from the ACLU and why we should go to that lower one with lots of good data as far as let me say that committee we're going to have to stop now I know there's some people that thank you