 It's still the breakfast, and plus TV Africa, let's quickly look at our second conversation. It's about the issue of padding in government agencies. The ugly trend of budget padding in the federal government's annual appropriation continues on abated, and that's despite predictions and reports of in session of excess budgetary allocations and duplication of projects by ministries, departments and agencies, as well as the legislature. Just recently, the independent corrupt practices and other related offence commission ICPC revealed that a total of 400 billion Naira was inserted into the federal government's budget for the 2021 and 2022 fiscal year. According to ICPC, the 2021 budget totaling 13.59 trillion Naira was parted by civil savants in the various MDAs with duplicated projects worth 300 billion Naira, and project duplication also worth 100 billion were also smuggled into the 17.12 trillion Naira 2022 budget by some MDAs. Record that the Ministry of Humanitarian Affairs and Disaster Management has alleged that 206 billion, 242 million, 395 million was found into the budget without its knowledge. In the same vein, the Minister of Finance, Budget and National Planning, Zain Apartment has refuted allegations of budget padding by some ministries, departments and agencies. We have Muktak Mohammed, Developmental, Economist joining the conversation this morning. Muktak, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Good morning. All right. Let's start off on this note. Why is budget padding still an issue, especially when there's been an introduction of zero budget system by this administration, Buhari's administration? I don't think they've done that. If they've done that, we'll have what we have. They haven't done that. We have maybe they've done it with, I mean, without putting the systems in place because if they say they've done that, we'll be seeing all these figures that the member is the ICPC, like you said in your report that first of all came up with that report. What have been done about it? Has any ministry of anybody in the ministry have been arrested or tried or interrogated or off to now? We don't know. And if you look at the case of budget padding, it has been ongoing for a very long time. It used to be the legislators that would incite projects from the government into further government projects. We are now getting up that now what we are seeing is now we are seeing that ministries and parasitists are inciting budgets that are supposed to be on the ministry of humanitarian affairs. The minister of finance in Nassan is a war bank project that is supposed to be under them. So they have to put it through the ministry. So it doesn't care. There's no clarity. There's no process and there's no synergy because sometimes what you see in this administration is like if there's an opposition party inside the administration because it seems to oppose themself in a lot of things and they do it very publicly and just look at the two people that are involved in this. These are the two most powerful women in Bahrain administration and people that we may to understand they have the ears and the eyes of the presidents. So it's unfortunate we see this happening, especially in a government that has pride himself to be a government that have come to eliminate corruption or reduce corruption to its barest minimum. So for me, I think it's a Nigerian system because we don't have system in place. We have strong men. When strong men are there, then they do what they have to do when they leave. Then if we don't have another strong man, then the system is back to where it used to be. So where was the office of budget planning? What are they saying? We are not even involving the office of budget planning in all of this. It's still within the ministerial office and this was a budget that went through the federal executive council. Is it that they just sit down there and just approve budget without doing due diligence? So there's a lot of questions that are begging for answers. Alright, what the Ministry of Finance and Budget and National Planning is saying is that they're denying that there's any sort of budget parting. These are what you see in the 206 billion in the budget of Minister of Humanitarian Affairs. The minister, Sadia Farooq, says she is not aware of, she can't explain. The Minister of Finance, Budget and National Planning is saying that the World Bank is funding this amount of this money for the National Social Safety Net Scala Project to the tune of $473.5 million. These are equivalent of 206 billion Naira using the exchange rate of $435.57 Naira to the U.S. dollar. So if this is true, it means that we're taking loans from the World Bank, we're taking loans from the World Bank 206 billion Naira to go and share to people. Maybe they had already signed this deal some time back before now. So it's just a tetry, you know, that's what they're saying. So what are your thoughts on this, if it is true? Because we have to look at the explanation alibi of the Minister of Finance, Budget and National Planning. Well, if that is true, like the minister is saying, then it's really, really bad because what we are saying is that we are still collecting loans to consume on our pledges, on our luxuries. We are not looking at loans that will be developmental to the economy because you are saying that social investment schemes, what are the social investment schemes, why do we spend so much money, where are the data, who are the people that are going to be having this fund, how are you going to distribute it? If you look at it, the Ministry of Finance is saying that, I mean, I think the Ministry of Material Affairs is saying that that was an amount that the Ministry of Finance was telling them to put that is for the North East Developmental Committee. And they are saying, no, the money has been released last quarter. So there is a lot of not clarity in that arrangement. And if it's a World Bank project, is it that the Federal Executive Council are not aware of it? Is it that because it's a World Bank project, it's only the Minister of Finance that has the same... I think they should have been in a meeting between the Minister of Finance and that of the material affairs so that they will sit down together and would have agreed that this is what it is meant for, this is it, and it's coming for the Minister of Finance. It's meant for this. And I remember that the data to be provided has to come from the Ministry of Material Affairs. So definitely, like I said, there's no synergy between the Buhari government official. We have seen this time and time again happen openly. Remember that even the Minister of Defense also is crying out that there are some... But the numbers that were inputted in the Ministry of Defense, that he is not aware of. So there's been a lot of allegation against the Ministry of Finance, and I think it's something the Minister need to come out and tell us the true picture or have a meeting with all of these Ministers that are complaining, and then let us know, they cleave the true picture of what is really happening. Because for now, if you are collecting that can-heage loan with the already... They're boarding that's already in the country, and you are not explaining to it. And remember that any such loan, either from World Bank or IMF, will have to go to the National Assembly. Then the National Assembly will have a question to answer if they actually have the one that approved that loan and when that loan was approved. And also the World Bank has also come out, either through the National Assembly or the Ministry of Interior, or the Ministry of Finance, writing to World Bank to give clarity on it. So there's a lot, a lot, a lot to be said about that, especially when it's a loan that we are already shouting that we've collected too much debt. Oh well, so because I feel like we would definitely continue with this circle of conversation, we keep asking. It might just be what we talk about in 2023. But so what exactly is the issue? How come we have, you know, bodies that are saddled with the responsibility of performing oversight functions and they're not leaving up to expectation? What exactly is going on? It's the Nigerian factor. You and I know what the Nigerian factor is. What does that mean? Well, the Nigerian factor, we have seen it over the years. It's all about corruption. I can tell you, you remember there was a time that the then Director General of Security and Exchange Commission, Arumunite, asked to openly say that sometime when you come to meet the National Assembly, you have to ask for bribe or the other media to ask you to install project or for themselves to collect some money and also inside training for their own committee members and they may not go for those trainings. And also we've seen that also play out in ministers also. I mean, it's all about the Nigerian factor. Sometime is the National Assembly that are not doing their oversight function very well. Sometime the National Assembly is telling the parasito that they have to incite money for them to do their oversight function. So definitely it's the Nigerian factor. But let me tell you the interesting thing about budget going through the new administration. The history of budget going through the new administration has always been that when the new administration comes in, it will also be want to present a supplementary budget because some of them don't even believe in the budget and they will have new ministers. Remember the way it works here. The minister will come in and say, look, I don't think this project will go on. So what we are seeing here, if you listen to what I've been said, even by the National Assembly and also by the budget IT, the transparency group, said that what they are doing now is make sure that they get some money, they get this budget approved, that before the new administration comes in, some of this project that will not even be implemented, money will be released for this project before the new administration comes in because they know definitely when the new administration comes in, they will have to be asking to go for supplementary budget. So it's a thing that the EFCC and the economic and the ICPC should be looking at and be because these things are not things that are just happening. They know who are behind it and they know what to do, but do they have the political will to do it? I think that's where we have the problem. So I can tell you, it's a Nigerian factor of somebody saying, it's my turn. I have to leave now. I have to make something before I leave. And that has been the bend of our problem thus far. But I'm still very curious about the fact that I remember vividly and we understand the heels which this government came in board shortly after 2015, 2016, you know, those plan to adopt of course, which was adopted the zero budgets system. And then we still have all of this. And if it's the case, so if we have a system where we can curtail all of these excesses, why are we not implementing it? Why are we not practicing it? What's going on exactly? And how come those- You must know that. Because it feels like it's a helpless situation. That's what it is. So we know that there's a system that we can adopt, you know, to cut the excesses where you have to be specific with every projects that you're going to, you know, mention, I mean, there has to be, it has to be very intentional. That's what the zero budgeting system talks about. Not that you have to carry over from a particular period to another. So we have systems already that we can adopt. What's stopping us from doing that? If it's like we enjoy it, it's going to go on for a very long time. You're actually talking about systems. Systems are what are supposed to be working. And again, systems are supposed to be improved upon. You know that when you are fighting a battle with a monster called corruption, it's just like what we had a recent, when the CBN was saying that you have people that can't affect the currency. So they have to come up with new security features. So it's the same thing with systems. Systems are not just something that just put there. Because once you put system, we are trying to deprive some people of what they have corruptly and reach themselves. So they will find another means of doing it. So what do you need to do? Systems are meant to be improved every year. You don't just say, okay, the system is working. There's no certainty in the world these days, even in any area. So you need to keep improving. So what we are seeing is that we are seeing a system that have been put in place, a system that have been studied by the civil servants. Remember that I've always said that the corrupt system we have in Nigeria is mostly being driven by the civil servants. So you see them there. So what are you supposed to do? You are supposed to improve upon those systems as a minister as you come in. But what we see here, we see people just come in there and just sit out. There's already an existing system. Nobody's looking at the loophole that people are taking advantage of the system. So systems are meant to be kept. Systems are meant to be there. But again, systems are meant to be worked on. They need to be improved. Because no system is perfect. So you keep working towards getting the better systems, like every organization you attend. And I think that's where we are not doing anything. We are just leaving the system that is there and it's not working. So do you even think that we have even tried to practice or adopt this system of budgeting? I said it before. I don't think we've really done that in budgeting because since the coming of this administration, budget batting has been there right from 2015 until now we are still talking the same thing. So that tells you that they have not been any... Maybe that system is just a system that is written there in the books, but it's not being implemented. Because like I said, in Nigeria, systems are implemented by strong men. And when you don't have strong men in the place, then the systems are not implemented. You need to look at the minister of power status that are working and then you realize that what is making them work are the ministers, their personality that is making it work. And if you took about corruption, remember that this is a mission that pride itself to fight corruption. Then in the body language of the president, I mean, when it came in was, this president was going to fight corruption. So body language can start to clean, but it's a system you put in place that you keep improving, that will sustain what your body language is telling them. So what we've seen, I would not seen anything yet. I can assure you on to this government on their own, unfortunately, or if we have a new government that is totally not of the ruling party, then a lot, a lot will be unveiled that we shake this nation in terms of corruption. That has always been what has happened. Moktak, just before we go quickly, in a few seconds, do you think there's a way that we can set in, we can be sure whether or not it's true that finances have been taken or that's been budget padding, despite the fact that you have the ministry denying this? It's not rocket science. They are tied to projects. What are these projects? How much are these projects? Where is this project located? Are these projects really implementable? It's just for the National Assembly to do their role, I mean, to go about and make sure that. It's not rocket science. It's something that can be investigated. We have all the agency of government to investigate that. So I don't think, like I said, maybe they don't have this political will. They are not ready to do that. If they are ready to do that, I don't think it's rocket science. All right. All right, Moktak, Mohamed, thank you very much for your time and we look forward to having you again soon. Thank you. And that's the size of our package right here on the breakfast in Plastiwe Africa. Please don't show the followers on our social media platforms. So the Plastiwe Africa on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and of course on YouTube, we have Plastiwe Africa and we have a second account, Plastiwe Africa Lifestyle, where you can watch our live streams from anywhere in the world. Until we return tomorrow, my name is Kofi Bartels. Thank you very much for your time. I am Messia Popo. We joined the newsroom at nine o'clock for the news proof. Stay with us.