 we have a casual chat with our guest panel is a mix of small companies small companies I'm meaning like 10 or lesser people in the whole company all the way to people that can hire hundreds of people as you know go jack right so without further ado let me invite our guest panel Gabriel Gabriel it's a founder of sales will it's it's there he actually is one of the very few lucky people that are graduated from Y Combinator I mean have not heard of Y Combinator have you heard of Airbnb yeah so Airbnb is one of the the graduating startup from Y Combinator right and also AJ you want to finish eating first so sorry I put you on the spot AJ is the CTO of GoJack right have you heard of GoJack maybe maybe yes yeah and also we have Alvin which is which is the head of product from Bobbot.ai Bobbot.ai is a chatbot right and also we have a senior software engineer from a secret company right it's Alisa our only female engineer in our panel today okay all right I'm gonna give I'm gonna pass the mic to you guys and if you can do a little self introduction of yourself and also give one one thing that you do outside work yeah or you don't or you don't do anything outside work yeah hi I'm Gabriel so as Sandy introduced I'm the founder and CEO of sales will so sales will is basically an AI sales assistant that helps to qualify leads you know for companies so some of the customers that we are working with include Wantedly right rents that group general assembly and you know other meat market and enterprise companies so right now our engineering team is seven people so a pretty small engineering team I mean compared to GoJack so so it's gonna be an interesting perspective one thing I do outside of work other than work I like to play the piano so yeah that's a quick introduction of myself okay my name is Ajay I work for GoJack we are not very big company and we don't have many many people we have we have only around 180 people not a lot I'll put the perspective we have 18 products so if you look at 18 products and 180 people we are like less than 10 people per product very small thing and actually it is true our payments platform is written by like 12 people which is like a pretty and like average player in performance are written by like 200 people so yeah so that way I'm from India I lived almost all my life in India I have been traveling for GoJack for last two and a half years and this year I decided to stay in Singapore so I can go to Jakarta and Bangalore every other week that's what I do we have office in Singapore now so which is great so I spend my Thursdays Fridays and Saturdays Sunday over here one thing which I do outside my work is mostly I listen to a lot of songs because that's one thing which is good like so whenever I get into home I listen to songs I don't I don't I'm not very extra talented so I don't do anything else apart from that sometimes when I get time I try to play age of umpires or sometimes as I get time I try to draw something so that's what it is the reason is that I'm actually not a computer science graduate I have a diploma in fine arts and I am a commerce graduate so very different guy in that sense hi everyone I'm Alvin from Board Board so Board Board is actually a product it's part of a company called 2359 Media so for us we are not we are only half your size we are not that big so okay so in any case basically our product it works it's a chatbot to improve the productivity of enterprises basically we do it in the space of automation for enterprises where we integrate with systems and get work done for them through the chatbot so talk to the board and the board will do something for you in terms of what I'm what I do on my own free time I'm through and through so I play I build stuff so I use Arduino to make some fun projects from time to time yep that's about it Lisa hi everyone my name is Alissa I work for Apple in Singapore I'm part of the CDN team or content delivery network for those that don't know what that is it basically serves things like software updates applications music videos and different types of content to your devices outside of work I'm trying to grow kale and bell pepper in a hydroponic system and I also enjoy watching books and online lectures okay I mean do you quote from time to time or do you now take care more of the product because I know for a fact I heard AJ spoke before he quotes 20% of the time I know Gabriel I know he doesn't really quote anymore yeah do you still quote or is Alissa the only one that quotes here only when necessary only when necessary yeah exactly which is all the time okay maybe the first question right so what a misconception of being a tech geek like Alvin said that's what does the outside world thing of you and then they ask you sort of weird questions is that do you guys any have received any weird questions like the the button on my Apple phone to work can you help me out right now anybody says that to you I get a lot of weird questions from Apple but I can't answer any of them so please don't ask you anything Apple related okay but for any of you guys anybody tell you like what a misconception of being a techie to you guys face I have one when I first started after graduating I always thought you needed to know everything before getting a tech job I'm here to say you don't need to know everything you'll learn most of the stuff on the job so don't worry secondly if you think being a techie is a nine-to-five job you're totally wrong I work remote all the time and I completely encourage it and think that you should work outside of the office don't join the peak hours be part of the solution don't be part of the problem I think on my side one of the major misconceptions I guess is people think of tech people as just like code monkeys so basically so I hire a bunch of tech people get them to write code you know I know they will build my idea but if you look at the market nowadays like most good developers actually they do have ideas on their own they would want to get involved in like you know product you want to get involved in the business so like I know this general conception that techies are just like code monkeys I think is increasingly getting more and more obsolete because when you get good people you know they would definitely want to have a voice in you know the way not just you build the product but also like your go-to-market your you know the entire business are you know value proposition so I guess that's one of me smart the misconceptions on myself and then on that point because we have a few engineers in the crowd I spoke a few of them before the ecosystem is always changing right it's always very fast-moving new languages are coming out so what advice do you guys what can you guys give them to stay relevant I really can't give advice I don't think so I have like qualified to give any advice to a lot of people it's their life but one thing which I have done myself is that I can tell you I have learned and I have learned and learned all my life and I think whatever profession you are in you have to learn to excel and things will change like IT or tech industry changes every maybe six months now compared to 18 months earlier the technology and the thought process changes every 12 months and the stack gets older in every 18 months so what are you wrote today is useless in 18 months at least especially in the startup industry not in the legacy or hard like hardcore like hardware industry does not but the thing is the tech startup industry is a lot there is a lot of good software being commoditized for example TensorFlow and all stuff if you have to do ML models like six months back or 12 months back you have to get the whole Hadoop cluster on your own and lot of other stuff which will take like six months to get up and running and then try to your own models now you can do it three clicks maybe and four days of work and you'll have very nice regression to running it a very fast speed right but now if you the one advice which I give you or should tell you is never fear the Sun cost so one of the biggest problem is Sun cost fallacy people do not want to delete or leave their code please delete and leave your code and rewrite it because if you don't do it then you will never move to TensorFlow you'll never move to new software and you will always get stuck with your own old software and that's wrong and you will be outdated software will be outdated soon so please leave the Sun cost fallacy that is the only one advice I have on the mic so Sun cost is a sunk SUNK yeah so when you write a soft when you write a software and so suppose you're playing a video game and you'll die in video game the next time you play you'll play better right so if you play 10 times you play much much better so if the software which you code which you write if you write a code and you delete that code straight delete it next code which will write a much much better I can tell you that and that's one of the biggest fear people have they always recommend this code but don't delete it my point is just delete the code and see what happens it'll be better next time I'll win seems like you have something at what you say because I usually restart all my projects I don't I don't I don't reuse anything at all so actually from from I think personal experience you don't really just focus on learning code or code related stuff or tech related stuff all the time it would be good to have exposure to many many things because end of the end of the day like say for example sometimes I sometimes I would pick up learning stuff like oh I see my journey over there okay so sometimes I'll pick up learning stuff like related to music for example or sometimes pick up stuff related to art which somehow it seems to help me for any of my weird TensorFlow projects so yeah it also helps when I'm not sure if any of you are actually in consulting so for us when we also do consulting jobs we work with a whole ton of industries with different domain knowledge so when you do happen to read up certain don't us in a different domain or a different space that you are actually in right now it helps when you talk to people because when you talk to people from another industry you you might not be able to catch or understand what they are asking about or what they actually say so if you do happen to read that up then you can understand better and then bring your programming knowledge into play to suggest to a customer for example what they should be doing I mean that's from a consultancy standpoint listen do you stay current you learn new codes not trying to put you on the spot yeah I try to watch one video per day that's related to something in tech it could be just like a past tech conference video or somebody wrote a blog post about improving your network performance or whatever and I find that that helps okay the next question probably is I'm asking on behalf of know some people they are trying to grow your company and also for you right so you're also hiring aggressively right now as an engineering team grow right how do you manage your team in a very efficient manner anybody want to start off how fast have you guys grown over the year I seem to be the target of all questions okay so I mean for us we were still relatively young as a startup so that there are processes in place where we put to at least not to offload our guys from random stuff but as a startup our processes are more flexible in a way where okay so it's more like we keep ourselves like 80% occupied 20% free so that we can have like 20% to do random stuff so some of my guys at the back basically they can tell you more right so to prevent to prevent people from burning out our general tech related tech process basically is that once you have already done 80% of a job to 8 sorry 80% of your time has been spent on doing a particular job 20% you can do it on put it on unrelated stuff could be studying like ML or studying something you're interested in so at least that prevents burnout from our side that at least is how we manage our guys from a tech perspective from overall company perspective basically the easiest one that I can describe right now is daily we would actually have a stand-up call to to talk about what everybody is doing so everyone has an overview an idea that of what everyone else is doing at the end at the end of the day we'll have like a closing to describe what you have already accomplished or what has already been done so that everyone else also knows the status of what's going on so this helps to I mean by me saying it to you right now you probably not feel there's any impact that it would help you in any sense but as the person or the people who are actually talking through day in day out they would actually have a better idea or a sense of what the entire company is what's going on in the company and also helps them to build confidence in the company so I think that is actually very important for us also very interested in hearing Ajay right okay so growing team means you're organically growing it right it's like a lot of plants and every plant to take its own root and becomes a bigger plant right becomes a tree so what we do is two things right first we try not to hire leader from outside we try to grow people from inside give them a chance first and if they do not like do not come to up to the job then we try to hire so first that kind of kills the disappointment within the company like why did you hire somebody from outside why you didn't give me chance right so we give them chance if they don't do it then we have to go and they then they are more ready to accept and learn people right first thing is that second I don't know that I should say that we don't hire assholes so no hassles so we try to fire people as soon as there is a politics spotted so no politics so that's these are the things which actually kind of let us very slow growth while we grew a lot we grew from 38 people to 200 now in three countries but we kind of go like one in 800 or one in 900 that is crazy ratio we have and it requires a lot of things right for example when you are growing we look at more like a person as a family I asked or and who anybody in the panel can say no to hire a person first thing is that so you have to source the people right then only can you can grow them right so once you have people and they are ready to learn and they don't fear the titles so some lot of people actually I should talk about this it's very interesting sorry I'm digressing a little bit but I want to talk about this lot of people actually really worried about when they join a company what is their title lot of people right we do not have title we try not to have title within company don't play title in the company and whenever somebody actually really get stuck on the title I ask them look when you want a title you want to quit that point of time you really need a title when you're joining a company you don't need a title see when you want to quit you want to say that I was a VP at Gojek right when you're joining you don't need to be a VP at Gojek correct so I tell them like if you're okay to come in without title and learn something with us then please come and come and join us and that has happened a lot and this is good and sometimes it's very different it's very different mindset to get people with no titles sometimes very difficult to and those are the things we do only to test test the attitude we only do to test figure out like what they think about themselves are they there to learn or are they there to earn and there are two different things earning a title is much better than earning money and learning a skill is much better than learning the politics so we try to figure out what is the balance what they are doing and if that is a case then mostly internal people growth is one of the best things you can always do and that's what we have been able to do and that means we have people who are like 27 28 years old who are actually leading the entire allocation or transport platform for us who are leading entire payments platform for us and which is I'm very proud of so we have hired a lot of good leaders but average age has been very young and whenever we hire somebody we really hire somebody to bring them in and it's their responsibility to grow the team we never have people on existing team on a leadership position and the hiring process is that people own their hiring process it's completely decentralized you want to hire somebody in your team go ahead figure it out and do it it is slow because not everybody is like that discipline but but when they say we are moving slow we said it's your fault so yeah make people responsible that's what I will say interesting and and no life lessons from been hiring people the past six months yeah can you share a little bit like how like the lessons from you hiring more and more people where I first met you were you were like four person team right yeah right now you guys are 14 yeah so hiring people I think engineers or just in the team as in general yeah so for us it's very different because we are very small right now we are 14 people half the team are engineers so what we look out for in our engineers are people who can operate independently people who are actually have a passion for like the product and the business problem that we are solving and basically we look for people who have a track record of like shipping stuff so for us a hiring bar is actually very high so you know most of our engineers used to be from like Vicky you know the video streaming company that was acquired don't tell everybody where you're supposed to perform and like you know nitrous dot IO engineers they have joined us so so I guess when you keep the hiring bar high you know smart people tend to attract smart people they refer you know to this so-called gig to their friends and yeah so that's how we have been doing hiring yeah okay and how different is your product now then when you first started very different okay talk about like how is it different and then yeah what is the most proud your proudest moment I want to pass it on how it's different okay when I started yeah okay I started around as a city I started last year March I was working with the gojek for like before six months before that as well when we started we were doing around 10,000 bookings per day we do more than 2 million per day now so we grew a lot we do around 150 million API calls per second and we have 18 products now compared to four when we started so if you look at look at us now we are market leaders in Indonesia for 18 verticals mostly we are the largest food company food delivery company in the world except China outside China we kind of deliver like 30,000 tons of food every month to people and and we do around like maybe 50 round trips to moon on our drivers so we are very big now like in terms of product in terms of engineering we did not grow that much while per group around like thousand x engineering kind of grew only like five x so we are we have to vary and we can't we can't really hire people that fast right one of the things we changed for us is the communication biggest problem actually became more and more the product grew and more and more the team decentralized more and more communication problems start coming in and we are proactively solving those problems so basically how many of our tools you can put it they will not solve the problems you can have Slack you can have chat your WhatsApp Telegram or whatever you have you can provide people with everything if people are not willing to communicate you can't do anything about it so instead of looking at the tools to solve the problem you should look at the people habit and behaviors to solve the problem that is one of the things we change in Gojek and we are still trying to learn to fix that so yeah and I think it'll always be fixing mode it will never be that oh we achieved this so that is one thing the proud moment for me was when we first time did one million orders per day it was really proud because we were very small team and we were doing a concurrent of like 70,000 that point of time what I what I mean was a concurrent of 70,000 is like 70,000 people are back on motorcycle and roaming around in Jakarta and our app was supporting that and we are doing live updates and all the stuff just to give you a little bit of context we receive around 9 billion events from drivers every day and we relate to every customer and everything else this is the largest and biggest for any other company to do that because we have a lot of motorcycles so for any one geographic even grab and Uber doesn't do the scale we do while we're very small so that way we are pretty good so that was pride moment problem that things we did not go down do you remember how you celebrate we had a big big cake and we got drunk we got really drunk that night so yeah yeah so and second proud moment was that we could never celebrate Fridays because Friday is the largest traffic and we always used to go down this was like 2015 June or July but we don't go down anymore now so that's another thing I don't focus too much on the achievements usually for me my proudest moment is actually every single day with my team so the the key thing for us is actually this I find that morale is actually very important being having high morale means high productivity and of course we are celebrating it as well so we are having a Christmas dinner yeah but in any way why I say so because is that I feel that now being able to most the team doesn't do to get a very productive team it's not about monetary rewards but rather you as a person working with each other like if you can stand working with each other or can you be happy working with each other if you can actually be happy working with each other naturally you can increase your productivity you can get more ideas fresh ideas you can definitely do your work faster that's for sure and you achieve better results of course so that being said I mean my story is quite simple and Lisa I was a proudest moment proudest moment I guess when we had our data pipeline built out I was pretty proud that was pretty nice it took us a long time to do it we have a small team in Singapore there's only six of us here and three of us deal mostly with the entire data pipeline so it was a pretty proud moment when we got that running and this question is probably more for the geeks in the audience can you guys share what's your current job scope like and what kind of technical stack are you guys using right now so the job scope that you are doing right now if you can share and also what kind of technical stacks are you guys using okay so the engineers in my team don't really have a scope everyone's kind of free to go wherever they want within the CDN stack and that's anything from setting it up all the way to processing it to fixing it to managing it configuring it but specifically I mostly just deal with the data side and so that's the infrastructure that's collecting it analyzing it processing it visualizing it and then improving the network so what was the second part of tech stack yeah okay so the main languages that I use our goal line for concurrency and easier deployment distribution to all our machines Python for a lot of our analytics machine learning and processing stuff JavaScript for fun and and bash grips every now and then oh and Scala because we have to in Spark in terms of tools and things our pipeline has a bunch of like Apache Kafka that we use to as a message message queue to have high throughput logs for storage there's a mix of influx DB elastic search Cassandra click house and we like to experiment a lot and that's why they exist they may not be in production but we'd just like to have it running and see how many billions of rows it can process and as I've mentioned I also use Apache Spark for processing streaming data for deployment we have Docker running on Kubernetes and for the data science side we use sci-pi 9 pi and some internal machine learning libraries that's it I didn't get any of that but I say we are not that far off almost everything's the same but anyway okay so first question is just current job scope my current job scope so everything at anything under the Sun goes from fundraising to looking at finances to planning ahead for the next couple of years to technology to protect product management haven't really coded much but you know probably we need to quote in the next couple of days yeah basically anything goes I think it's pretty much same for the rest of my team everyone's flexible to be involved in any part of the business mainly because I feel that we we don't need everybody to splash we don't want every our team to specialize in like just one thing alone we want exposure to everybody else it helps the person to grow as well because I'm going forward if any of your developers for example want to get promoted or maybe go to the next job you will need more skill sets than just coding for example so I feel that we are trying to grow people here so that that's why we are not limited to one scope of work as for as for tech stack almost the same so there's nothing much for me to add that that's about it but what I would say is always try to keep architecture very very simple for anything that you develop because maintenance is a big big big problem extremely huge problem a very very simple example say if you had developed an application for your client two years ago and you had and then suddenly there's a problem a problem comes about and you have to fix it like almost in immediately if you had a very complicated stack then and there's nobody with the knowledge or you have actually forgotten what you have done two years back then it's really really hard to fix you'll probably take a whole bunch of time so it'll be much easier for you to use like what what Amazon or Azure is actually giving you so to reduce the complexity of your scope let the infrastructure team on Azure and Amazon handle that for you so that you can focus on what you need to do which is deliver a good product to your and customers that's all and Gabriel Gabriel first I see Ajay is even taught so we turn the clock back one year ago I was mostly doing coding so I was just building the product talking to customers we turn the clock back okay so after that we went to our Y Combinator we came back we raised 1.2 million dollars and then I guess the the proudest moment for my team was when they managed to get me to stop coding so yeah so yeah so my current job scope now is mostly doing sales customer success product and you know basically everything and anything else including like buying lunch cleaning a toilet so yeah so that's my job scope now tech stack so mostly Ruby react.js on Amazon we use Docker machine learning on Python we're using this interesting national language processing library called spacey.io so for those of you interested you can check it out yeah that's about it okay Ajay what he said so my my my my current job is like I my job is job scope is to happiness of people that's what my job is scope is and chief janitor so that's what I do I always so when I when I write code I actually go and delete code that's what my job is so to make chaos yeah I do I do that so one of the things which we do also is we write a lot of TDD test event code a lot of it and the reason is that mostly few of our microservices are not touched after six months or eight months so either we have to rewrite them or if you had to fix something small them the only only at only cover of protection we have is if we have written tests for it if you written tests for it then if you write do something wrong tests will fail you'll know what is going on so that will save you that is my that's what the two things I have in terms of tech stack we do almost whatever they said except we also do go go and closure heavily most of the tech stack all the APIs on Ruby and rails only fronting APIs what we do is back-end or mostly back-end is moving to gRPC or entire payments is on gRPC so we don't use HTTP anymore so everything is gRPC everything asynchronous a lot of workers and a lot of Kafka a lot of Kafka pretty large Kafka in that sense every every every microservice emits a log in Kafka and event in Kafka so almost everything else synchronous so go closer Ruby Java more Java is retiring go is in place closure is mostly for our functional programming stuff Ruby is mostly for APIs gRPC and HTTP gRPC is mostly for all over back-ends she for front-end whatever it is required and that's it not very complex it takes take very simple I've got one last question and then every beyond anybody can ask questions right so what's the best piece of advice you receive and also the worst advice so it's to two-part question Alisa I'll start with the best advice I find that if you compare yourself to others other achieve people other people's achievements it can be very tiring and depressing so instead just try competing with the you from yesterday and I find that to be much better improvement than trying to compare yourself to other people I don't know worse advice maybe follow your passion is not a good advice I don't know my best advice was don't look back so I really practice that like when I was mentioning I don't I don't reuse my code I rebuild something so basically yeah just don't look back because every day is a new day you are just plain catching up so if you the further you look back the more overloaded you feel so don't don't look back just look forward to every day then the worst advice that I got was probably the opposite when in my previous job basically my CTOS always asked me to look back like six months ago what do you suggest or one year ago what do you talk about then which I felt there was very bad advice because it's like so far back and you probably not remember exactly what's going on the advice I received was very I still remember that it doesn't matter what has been said it matters who said it it's daily in your life if 10 people tell you that you're idiot but the people who matter to you tell you you're idiot that matters so don't listen to people first thing is that second so that is advice I received I always follow that and I want to tell you to two sentences first sentences today is the today is the tomorrow which you are worrying about yesterday think about it today is the tomorrow which you were worrying about yesterday and second second piece of thing which I always tell people in in in when you are in work when you want to do things there is only one reason to do something and there are thousand reasons not to do it it's your choice which one you want to choose so the best piece of advice I got was to talk to your users talk to your customers do not build things in the vacuum the worst piece of advice I got was when I was sharing sales with an advisor slash investor he said oh that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard like no company the right mind will use something like this so I hope that you guys are working on something else alright anybody has any questions we open out the floor to questions we do we always are the best people actually relative for their experience and relative for their skill level it's all relative right yeah so so the freshers out of college are the best people they are the raw molds you can put them in any mold and make them anything actually when you hire a literal person he has to unlearn and learn relearn things according to you juniors are the best ones just hire them as many as you can and you'll result you'll see the result in two years that's what gojek is all about actually today yeah I just want to add that Apple Singapore has an intern and grad program so if there any starter software engineers come speak to me I'll give chance to everybody relax okay you have a question I mean like the the first graduate must like be brave to stand out from the crowd right I also I think a lot of companies look for aptitude right so I think Gabriel Xiaomi before I he met somebody that was he met him for half an hour and you definitely what and you knew right away you wanted to hire that person right like you always look up for people that do extraordinary stuff like go backpacking or something you want to share yeah so so we is a bit unorthodox but basically we look out for people like what Cindy mentioned with like very very passionate interests outside of work and people who kind of like have accomplished amazing slash atrocious things before in the past because one of our philosophy is that you got someone who you know are have done like you know interesting slash crazy things in the past then it's a pattern that is likely to recur but yeah anybody else maybe I can answer that practically everybody on our and on our side basically you can choose to do remote any day whenever they want as long as you just let everyone know that where you are going to be at that day or at the point in time so I mean a couple of our team basically sometimes just choose to go downstairs to a cafe to work with their laptops and that's it and some days some guys choose not to come because they're probably sick or just felt that is it's tough to actually travel to many places over and over again so then they would just prefer to stay at home or stay at maybe a client's office or someplace that is more convenient for them so yes remote working definitely works it works for us because they at the start of the day we have an opening at the end of the day we have a closing so we know what everyone's doing right now so there is no qualms to that I probably mentioned the beginning but yeah I love remote working and I think everyone should remote work especially if you're a software engineer it helps in my team because we're distributed we have teams in other parts of the world so we have to communicate asynchronously whether that's email whether that's like hip-chat whether that's just doing pushes to github you just need some way to communicate your progress and try to not to have too many large group meetings because they suck and they're synchronous actually we as soon as you open second office you are remote right that doesn't matter if you are working from second office or working from home so we allow 100% remote when you are whenever you want to we have core working hours so you have you have to and different teams have different core working hours because there are different time zones so we mandate only three core working hours so that you can communicate with team if you're getting blocked you can solve the problems and team knows that you'll be online at that point of time apart from that we don't care I think it is working out very well it's mostly putting the responsibility of individuals rather than monitoring them as soon as you try to monitor somebody he'll figure out a loofahs so we try not to do that you put a proxy server in your office you'll figure out how to bypass that so that's the same process the we try the any process in company which actually monitors employees in some way or tries to do something it's a proxy server always remember that and people can always bypass practice so let's not go that part but yeah we support and promote 100% all the time I am remote a lot of time because I'm traveling a lot and I still work I still try to attend the calls and I do not go to calls which are more than five people so I think it's very interesting so I think we are the only company that do not believe in remote working so over here we have a zero remote working policy even though like our seven engineers only one is Singaporean which means that we literally fly and relocate people to Singapore just to work in our office and I think it's interesting because the reason for us is because we are small fast-growing startup so the reason why we don't practice remote working is because I feel that it inhibits like this stuff serendipitous kind of interaction like you wouldn't believe the kind of magic that happens when you have two smart people you know just having lunch together or like just chatting in the hallway in front of a whiteboard and the kind of magic that just happens so and personally I've done remote myself as well I kind of find it a bit isolating so I mean that is part of the side effects of remote working yeah so it's not like that you can work the whole year remote from in Kojak it's not so it's not like you can work the entire month remote no you cannot what we support is that I want to make sure that we actually want that balance as well so we said yeah you can go work remote whenever you want you don't need permission but you need to be in office few days a month you have to be so and sometimes it requires up to teams because we do pairing as well so for some some things we do pair programming a lot of times then remote doesn't work at all or they have to use a screen hero or something like that so yeah so it depends but thing is it's it's not remote actually the remote is not the question the question is flexibility of the working type and for such as flexibility of working location as long as your employer or we support that it's good for people I think that is what the crux of it is yeah we got two more questions and then yeah we have our lucky draw any video on once the mic okay so if not we thank the panel around applause please guys