 Okay, this is the live stream has started a live stream has started. So should I just kick it off? Yes. Okay, let's do that. So good morning and good afternoon to everyone joining this meeting in Asia Pacific and good evening to those joining us from the US, especially as it's Thanksgiving and I think that the special thank you for being here. I'm Julian Gordon on the VP Asia Pacific for the Hyperledger Foundation, and I'm delighted to be here to for this. As you can see Hyperledger financial markets special interest group meeting held, especially at this Asia Pacific friendly time which we've done a slightly different times normal, but we have a every month we have an Asia Pacific friendly. I'm really looking forward to today's presentation. Thank you, Prasanna, Lahore for being here to deep dive for us on blockchain use cases in India, the boost from the digital rupee. And as I said, thank you to our and I would say intrepid financial market signature the wonderful Bippin Bratham, who is taking time out from his Thanksgiving evening in New York to chair to chair today's event. So with that, actually one quick thing I have to first that give a quick housekeeping item. As a Linux Foundation meeting I have to mention that our participants have to comply with our antitrust policy, which you can see on our website. So with that, I'm going to hand over to Prasanna, and I look forward to and people want questions put them down in the chat. I'll just answer as we go along and then we'll probably have a Q&A at the end. But this is a meeting so Phil, you know, ping, get involved and discuss. All right, Prasanna, I pass it over to you. Yeah, so great. So great to be here, Julian and VP. In this presentation, I'll talk a lot about blockchain use cases in India and primarily how digital rupee is shaping up in India. This presentation is supported by many partners who are part of India Blockchain Forum as well as Indian ecosystem they are supporting hyperledger. So I have catered some of these 1520 startups and their respective life use cases in the Indian context. So this will be a bit of a rapid session and be in touch so that we can brainstorm online today as well as offline based upon the guidance by VP and Julian. So friends, yeah, so I think what we are seeing right by 2030 humans will be banking with no banks. That's the caption all about my presentation. So I think let's find out. So what we have seen back in 1967 where Barclays Bank has come up with the first ATM out there in England. And that is what that was the innovation. From there on, we have seen lot many innovations are happening in a digital channel side in banking side. We have seen how these pop up bank branches mobile vans used to carry the banking services during World War or we as well as we have seen 40 years back how the banking ecosystem collapsed in many parts of the world. One of those examples Lehman brother, which was one of the top bank into the 2007 and all of a sudden it has collapsed. Down the line there are some experts so called Satoshi Nakamoto found how we can create a financial equilibrium worldwide without any regulatory government and so on. So that was a try, which we have seen with the with the Bitcoin back there in 2008. Since then I think we have seen at least 1560,000 plus cryptocurrencies in the world. And we have seen how Facebook also come up with some kind of a parallel economy or parallel currency so called Libra back in 2018. And I think by the line to 202 and because of lack of regulation or lack of support by many countries and governments and even if a lot of these 30 plus partners has withdrawn their support to Facebook or Libra and this has vanished. But these are all the things has given a lot of traction out there in India we have seen how demonetization has changed the currencies since 2016 now. Almost 86% of Indian currency was was recirculated right back then back then why today we are talking about a digital repeats going to be another exercise for India. Well, there are some countries like El Salvador and there are many more who are looking at how crypto like Bitcoin can be legal tender rates. So there are a lot of things are happening worldwide right so at the same time banking international settlement collaborating with multiple countries coming with a lot of wholesale CPC projects example project Helvetica at Swiss National Bank or a recent announced of a successful pilot of a ambridge right among the six countries or a project Denver and project Durand and the BIC is now stopping here so they're asking many more countries to participate in a in a attention that how can we create a better sustainable sustainable interoperable long term technical CBDCs or a central bank digital currencies out there. So, while we see the money is moving from bartering system to gold cards. So I think it will not be surprised money slowly slowly moving towards digital assets. So RBI RBI is announced RBI which is a India's central bank Reserve Bank of India has announced to into 021 they are looking forward how how money money can be circulated or can be issued a can how can we issue fiat money in form of a digital form or not. That is the first time RBI has announced and since then RBI is doing a lot of activities. So during during my presentation, I'll walk you through those activities so let's understand let's understand how how internet world is needing blockchain and how India is adopting blockchain specifically how central bank currency is shaping up as a form of a digital group in India. Let's see which are those best practices recommendation considering learning from many other countries like China, China's Yuan or Cambodia and many more other projects and we'll see how hyper ledger ecosystem fits into all of the CBDCs implementation how hyper ledger and the overall community support and various projects at hyper ledger mature and upcoming projects how they will really create a better interoperable CBDCs across the world and I'll talk about one minute around Mudra circle which is backed by hyper ledger out there at Blockstack the company where I'm CEO. So let's get to rights. So friends, we have seen rise of internet since 1995. We have seen some of the logos vanishing. Say example codex or you talk about all these traditional models has vanished because of a internet coming into picture. Rather, internet has given a boost for customers. What they are looking so called is a better experience under a web 2.0. There are a lot of logos today we can't survive without, for example, Android iOS or a since some country like Uber or in India so called tomatoes we people cannot live without using WhatsApp and so on. So that's a traction where almost every ecosystem every communication method every transportation or every transaction method business models operations are now riding on on internet. While we have seen half of the population more than that is is on internet. We have seen almost every generation today needs internet or for for something or the other kind of a services So while we speak about internet digital transformation is an bigger agenda for every government, every company out there and they're writing every other stuff from a zero digital to extreme digital how it will be backed by internet Extreme digital is something like I have entered in a bank branch and they know who has really entered. How was my financial stability. What is that a product that we can offer and once I come out they know whether I was happy or unhappy right So that kind of autonomous world is coming up with various kind of interfaces we have seen keyboards or mouse so slowly slowly we have entered last 10 years into touch swipe or talk and eventually down the line this decade we will have a lot of a brain to brain interface or gesture based so interfaces plays a major role out there adoption of any of the things so while we talk about a various blockchain or internet based ecosystem these interfaces are going to play major role so I think it will not be surprised metaverse becomes a new interface for us but so friends are we good enough are we good enough after internet adoption and so much modernization of the world since last more than 2025 ones right so look at this like almost 8 billion people and maybe one third people still don't have a digital trail or digital identity. Maybe 2 billion people don't have a account so called financial inclusion support in the internet world we see a lot of frauds happening around OTPs or receiving a fraudulent SMSS or there are fake frauds people driven frauds like fake degrees or fake bank cards out there in India fake passports. There are a lot of other opportunities which are riding on a challenging structure of operation in Indian banking context right. If you look at this how long queues in front of banks or there is a there is a thing called as a direct benefit transfer which is done by the banks on behalf of government to the fellow citizens farmers. So these are all the operational challenges out there in India right there are ecosystems like wheat or there are other commodity like sugarcane or agriculture where every transition happens manually although in India we have a jam trinity which is so called a million rupee accounts or a Aadhaar and mobility still today in 2022 we have a lot of other challenges to be surpassed where we need a lot of automation a lot of operational excellence out there. So what we have seen in Indian context peer to peer payments BNPL or any other lending models is suddenly vanished and transform as a regulatory NBFC right. So this is something happening or followed by whatever transaction you use on Internet is always insecure. So while we are adopting Internet today we are sitting on an edge where every company every government every bank every health care wants to know who is their customer whether the customer is a trustworthy where can we really transit with that customer and at the same time customer or a fellow citizen wants to know whether my government is good whether bank is really sustainable where all this healthcare hospitals are really trustworthy. So there is a deficit gap right out there while we talk about internet so much. So there comes technology called blockchain and says that I'm a foundation technology right so I'm a foundation technology I will improve productivity I will allow radically simplify the collaboration between right right actors say example use case between banks right how can we create a decentralized KFC out there so that we remove those intermediaries along running operation process and create a trust among participants example banking ecosystem can we create a trust among all banks while we drive CBDC while we drive trade finance while we drive cross-border payment and many other use cases which blockchain comes and knocks the door of many other industries this is what is needed. So what what we have seen the challenge is Internet block today we are in the system where we pay some part of the money fees to allow our visa mastercard rupees and so on right only Internet world we are surrounded by the hackers while we do our transactions. We spoke about the need of a digital entity or a sales of a digital entity, a big tech company like Google or Metas are covering almost half of the world of a population. We have attention towards the 17 sustainable goals we have to add up industry 4.0 heavily we need to see how we can create a multi party trust in a sharing economy. This is the world is looking for and the blockchain being a foundation technology since 2008 has come up with a lot of new things new platforms new new protocols so called layer two protocols and so on. At a mainstream we have seen there are some cryptos but there are some platform like hyper ledger and many others who are giving a opportunity to create a better web to work into the into the web three. While everybody knows about what is blockchain one and two so primarily the banks governments are looking forward how we can implement dApps or a smart contract based ecosystems out there in a blockchain 2.0. Blockchain 1.0 is a completely mainstream many many things around crypto we keep hearing it's going up and down although it requires some kind of a guidance regulations compliance worldwide as a collaboration impact. We'll see a lot many other use cases out there. So today we are sitting off a crux of one or two or a blockchain 3.0 where we have seen how Bitcoin has tried to create a financial ecosystem or how the 17,000 K cryptocurrency is in my view in the next two to three years will bring down to the hundreds of them considering the lot of regulation compliance guidelines will come from a many countries. We have seen tries of a parallel economy where defies today we are talking about metaverse or NFTs or a defies and that is becoming a reality. The industry is moving up into trillions of industry down the line 10 years or so and where the companies like a banking international settlements are coming up with a global financial inclusion to say how we can create a central currency ahead of many other threats to the world example cryptos or a political threats from many countries or how big techs are shaping up and covering the world. So how can we create a decentralized or some sovereign payment ecosystem so called in Indian story we are talking about a digital rupee. So while we talk about digital rupee let's go back and see how India has adopted blockchain out there. In 2019 India has come up with its first national strategy which talks a lot about about awareness, it talks about various platforms to be used, it talks a lot about how we can create a use case repositories, it talks a lot about how we can bring on these companies so called Aadhar or NGT, IDRBT, NPCI, Rebit to bring on a right blockchain platforms all together. So regulators also supporting RBI, SEBI, IRDA, the IFSA these regulators are coming up with a lot of quotes down the line last two three years and some of them are around tokenizations or cross border payment or SME business models and so on. So India is geared up in many areas to really operate on a blockchain technology. Can we create our own blockchain platforms like India Chain is a project is kicked off or a standardization around blockchain technology compliance regulatory frameworks acceleration programs are being handled by regulators. So a lot of things are happening in Indian context and if you look at the government ecosystem today it's a disconnected. I have seen in my personal experiences, there are a lot of entities are involved for every business operation say example, claiming your land or a titling of your land, there are a lot of transactions to do the whole process is having too much of a too much of a man man in middle, extensive corruption, opaque operations, and it takes a lot of time it takes 45 days 50 days 60 days to really claim your land title right and if some dispute happens. So there are a lot of use cases we have seen state governments like Maharashtra, Telangana, Rajasthan, Kerala, Assam, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Jharkhand, there are a lot of government use cases we have seen like in Tamil Nadu we have seen voting tracking although it didn't pick up because of some mindset issues. Blockchain district something which Telangana has announced to do justice and law or energy management in Uttar Pradesh, issuance of degree certificate many units are aligned, electronic health records in West Bengal, total tax collection or e-residency, some of the state governments are exploring all about cyber fraud, incident tracking, there are some police departments under some companies like Polygon are helping out them, there are RTPCR certificate, COVID certificates on a blockchain, direct debit transfer which SBI has done on a Europe side non blockchain use case, but they are looking at how it can be really done on a blockchain. Smart agriculture and tracking of vaccinations, land home registration, these are all these use cases which are primarily adopted, yes I can say that a lot of pilots are being done and these use cases are primarily adopted in country like India. So country is not stopping at a government but there are many other use cases so called hotel booking or we talk about digital currency we are talking about cyber security where how fraud can be reported from one bank to another. Then there are courier ecosystem, logistic, aviation, GMR finance is working on a lot of other use cases, companies like Bajaj finance users are working closely with some of the airlines to have insurance on the spot on a smart contracts. There are a lot of use cases are coming in a nutshell, every industry today has understood power of blockchain in form of some MVP, POC pilots, under guidance of a METI, under guidance of many academia, many stakeholders like IDRBT, CDAC, IIT Belize and many more IITs are really making these things happens out there in India. At India Blockchain Forum we look at many stakeholders are coming up with a lot of other use cases like we have many startup companies who are adopting hyper ledger heavily and what we have seen how hyper ledger has really made many of those use cases, example settlement. Settlement is a company who works in a government financial healthcare and all and they have done more than four or five use cases live in India. Jharkhand's distribution or Uttarakhand medical asset traceability being a successful pilot at RBI Innovation Hub and there are many others so DLT labs which operates in many areas has done a lot of use cases in supply chain logistic tracking and so on. DG Lege successful POC pilot at RBI Innovation Hub followed by international remittance with one of the prominent bank in South India. ORIGRAPH is another DLT protocols giving some kind of a banking automation with a triple entry accounting or a settlement audit and how we can do better recognition backing ecosystem. Let's look at further more like new state tech which is a upcoming business model they are giving very good boost on a hyper ledger with their products called as a my fix multi interface financial exchange which gives from start to end complete customer life cycle as an operation cycle on a on a on a blockchain. And it's alive in federal back and they're talking with the many other banks out there see everybody knows the platform has become a global. It gives a lot of attention for developers and communities to build a lot of use cases on a hyper ledger snapper future take which is a very, very good startup backed by some of our influencers. They have done a lot of use cases at IFSCA and RBI and there are some snapshots or a healthcare chain use cases they have done on a hyper ledger. IR versus one of the well known brand in a digital identity, not only India but country like Bhutan and some of the European countries they have built self Saudi identity ecosystem on a hyper ledger, hyper ledger India primarily. Polygon, everybody knows around these there are four or five use cases they have made in many states like Maharashtra state for cost certificate or Ferozabad police for a fire registration blender is a upcoming company. They are going to about hyper ledger and they have built some of the digital identity products on cliff key or or in in Caribbean they are building building CP DCs out there right so looking forward world was one of the speaker last time. They have built a warehouse financing, how it can be really build a better financial ecosystem with the help of various financing. Blostom is a built on a hyper ledger ecosystem, where they are talking with the many banks and they are technically live with a couple of banks in India, where a complete banking business model of a fixed deposit they are they want to bring on on a on a blockchain prominent simplified trans bank, quanta labs, there are these examples so friends, what I want to talk about Indian ecosystem is primarily aligned with the blockchain adoption and if you look at overall hyper ledger adoption out here, a larger use cases are built on hyper ledger because hyper ledger supports lot many things into the community block stack or a car pie and print to block. These are all those examples who are things, making things happy or happen. Banking ecosystem, if you see in Indian context, or in the globally worldwide banking is changing banking is moving from traditional banking to the digital banking to the intelligent banking or we are in the crust of digital and intelligent, but in every layer every layer depends upon the digital banking, for example, while we talk about a blockchain based banking, it will always have some kind of API is our analytic support or digital banking support out there. So today to zero to two banking is sitting on a with a view that how we can adopt intelligent banking and autonomous banking as a traditional banking model. We are well versed in India with the India stack. If you go back in 2008, the way we used to do banking, since the last 15 years, India stack has really boosted up the whole ecosystem tomorrow. The digital rupee which we will build in India will be watched by the world why because we are already sitting on this railroad so called digital identity by other or a digital locker or ekvc ecosystem payment reloads of UPI and other enabled payment ecosystems or imps by NPCI and for more, we are talking about a constant layer today which is account aggregator going to helpful for many other business model the way UPI was helpful for payments. I am seeing account aggregator will be helpful for a 10 plus business models out there and today being a contributor to account aggregator API ecosystems, we are looking at how we can build a constant layer backed by hyper legendary out there. So furthermore, in 2022, if you study every bank and banking ecosystem, you will find today banks are looking for many other areas. So apart from digital rupee banks are looking for instant payment, instant settlements, they are looking how they can create a better customer as they want to do away with the bad assets the way we have seen many many frauds in Indian context can we create a ecosystem where we come to know he is a fraudulent customer in the other bank we will not allow him to go for a loan any other banking ecosystems. FinTechs are collaborating with the banks so how can we multi data, data transformation or data security, there are a lot of disputes that happened because of a manual process in a in a banking, we need a digital identity today we have other fine, but we need a fractional real identity, we need to know how much other data is utilized by the bank, customers want to know how their data is secure, we need to know how to create a tamper for audit logs RBI every year comes to the banks and do a lot of examination right look at that those examinations banks want to really see how auditors are aligned, how are your reporting is getting automated RBI vision statement which is updated every four years, it will give a vision and a view that how all of these asked by the banks will be will be covered in the next two to three years if some of those FinTechs are hearing me, they will see new business models, which are mentioned RBI vision statement RBI vision statement talk about data privacy talks about data automation, it talks about the security cyber security talks about many more business models and its welcoming FinTech tech companies and blockchain companies to bring and do a lot of experimentation with them. For example, see this is a current web to ecosystem where customers go and do the transactions on a UP is or phone pays or on a ecom or a post ecosystem, the whole process needs another cycle which is called as a reconciliation settlement, which is error prone manual it takes a lot of cost and this is how we are creating our ecosystem since last several years, which requires a lot of attention toward hardware management disaster recovery drill practices, security at every hop and so on and this is built on our traditional oracles or RDB misses or Java and so on. Now look at this ecosystem, which is backed by blockchain, so where we could see a node of RBI node of SDBC bank or node of SBI bank or node of ICSA bank and so on, which doesn't require any reconciliation settlement. It doesn't require man in middle, it is far more secure than what we have seen here, right, but will it be possible in a one day or two day, right, it is so much investment we have done in in many more business models, many more infrastructure out there since last so many. But in the Indian context, we can look at this team wave three model should come right so that is how we are giving attention to many other use cases where blockchain comes and says that we will create this kind of ecosystem, which is a more secure more decentralized more configurable bad bank smart contracts or tokens right and there are many more other use cases we'll see. So in Indian context, if you study, and you will come up with at least 50 plus use cases on blockchain where in your banking regulation banking controls cost overheads will be boosted right so use case like cross-border payment where SBI have done one of the use cases with the Nepal or ICSA bank done with the immigration committee. Decentralized KYC where 11 plus banks are doing this use case along with the METI and IIT Bili central bandage currency which is now really in form of a retail or a wholesale CBDC tokenization is the one we spoke about how federal bank is working with the new strike tech, decentralized finance next to identity, trade finance, compliance security, safe record keeping, secure open banking, how can we better integrate with the fintech syndicated lending cashless district fraud management. There are many more use case right so where we at a block stack also working closely with some of the larger banks to create many use cases. Furthermore ATM cash loading which is a very error prone at the end of the year banks like larger banks are in a in a in a corrodes of suspense account so we can really do with those things if you have a better ATM cash loading process smart there are many other reconciliation systems where in Vajra or NPCI have tried doing it let's see how they will furthermore automate that whole process branch operations opening of the ATMs how can we really keep a track of every branch operations invoice discounting then you talk about a complete customer life cycle so there are many of these use cases are like a field inspection where we have to see the inspection of a particular mortgage which which which is given as a as a as a loan so there are a lot of fraud does happen so this kind of ecosystem the blockchain based ecosystem can really shape up the Indian mic ecosystem things are happening RBI innovation how various other regulators are really helping in an Indian context the whole journey has started in 2017 with the bank chain consortium of 36 members it couldn't fly because it had its own challenges I would have seen if a hyper ledger would have been supported in 2017 we could have had a better picture out there in Indian context S Bank has done some use cases with the Bajaj protocol ICSA with the Emirates NPD SBI with the Nepal banks or there 2018-19 we have seen this new consortium formed by Bank of Burda Union Bank ICSA and 15 plus banks are supporting it right we need to see how it will this consortium because in any blockchain use case what is required to have a better governance among all the right actors which is being solved by IBIC but we need to see which are the top use cases priority use case can come Income test department has tried one use case around 15 years 26 years which is another error prone and operational model along with the Kotak bank DCB bank and six other banks IDRBT last year draft a concept of a decentralized KYC along with IIT, Wilay, CDAC and IDRBT ICSA's bank gone live with some of the blockchain use cases into trade I am looking at RBI Innovation Hub how they are helping banking industry for awareness as well as making things happen so collaboration between IBIC and RBI Innovation Hub will give a lot of incentives for a blockchain adoption in India right so apart from banks there are a lot of support from Rebit to bring on a blockchain on account aggregator on blockchain IDRBT has come up with a two strategy paper with the intention of how we can create a banking blueprint where in hyper leisure can come into picture and say we can create a banking blueprint prototype or a platform which will be a something like a drag drop and business BPM process completely backed by a blockchain so I think this is how we are looking at some of the use cases IDRBT where attention from RBI to IDRBT can we create a blockchain 5G kind of adoption or some kind of a IFSA unilater regulator bringing a lot of support on a web3 NPCI Vajra and let's look at how NPCI will support a retail CBDC out there they have recently announced they are working on a retail CBDC with the 5 banks NIBM's role is around how do we create a blockchain awareness web3 awareness digital identity awareness so in my personal capacity we have done almost 5-6 rather India's first CBDC master class was conducted back in 2019 since then RBI has announced around how they are going to cover up a CBDC in India RBI innovation we are talking a lot around many use cases they are working on these are live use cases we have we have seen at Indian ecosystems RBI innovation with the settlement, STG, digital age, STPI is closely working with the snappers of the labs good to see that many companies who are part of these adoptions are covering hyper ledger at a greater extent and we would like to see how many more companies come and contribute at hyper ledger ecosystem so that you become tomorrow's scientist or tomorrow's snappers or tomorrow's tech mendras or tomorrow simplifies who are working on all of these prominent use cases in a banking use cases we spoke about about a banking KYC I'll jump on how digital rupees being because this is something where your KYC is moving from digital to decentralized to self sovereign where this use case we are working with many other banks as well as the insurance and the wealthy companies so that India have a one KYC one decentralized KYC in control of a customer and they can reuse it for onboarding themselves to every other financial or a regulated entity so that every bank account which opens by a 5000 to 10,000 INR in the contest that cost will drastically reduce down to the negligible so let's look at how how India or how digital a central bank currency traction is coming up so everybody knows this money flower where CBDC fits into a it's a legal tender CBDC is a legal tender backed by governments right so if when you talk about the central it's a central bank issued country if we had currency the way we have seen other stable coins or other peer to peer to cryptocurrency CBDC is primarily is a legal tender a label of a nation central bank in a digital form while we see there are a lot of differences between digital currency and physical rupees why are we going ahead with the CBDC because it removes the cost of a system for a distribution right there is a lot of cost of distribution physical currency and then transactions involved in digital currencies are made using computers and electronic wallets they are not like a physical physically done the way the physical currency are involved it enables instant transactions instant settlement we can do with a lot of cost around that it can be centralized as well as decentralized the way we use technologies so there are a lot of benefits around a around a CBDC while while you can see you can see that current central bank is interest bearing and there are there are no limits CBDC will bring on some kind of a monetary policies around interest bearing or a limits around that right so this is something where CBDC brings with a lot of a lot of a there is no brainer around lot of advantages are there reduce the cost better financial inclusion we will see many more new products while we have seen savings current lending micro finance kind of things we will see many more other products coming up with the central central bank digital current to the world now there are two types of a CBDC token based or account based token based the way we have seen many other tokens operating in a web 2 or a blockchain 1.0 world where a party one or customer they can do peer to peer payment into account based we have a trail we know who is really operating under which regulating entity all about right now token or account are giving are giving more traction the type of CBDCs to bring on right in a in account based we know right who is there I am therefore we know who is really doing really doing transition token is addresses anonymous and we can it can really safeguard if you really bring on a token based things now there are two more types based upon the use retail or wholesale right most of the retail CBDCs worldwide are a token based right and while most of the wholesale are on the account based right so a token wherein it's an anonymous we can just address to address it's a real time and there are a lot of advantages for peers right peer to peer retail customers like us wholesale is something between interbank or it serves a very good stuff for interbank settlement medium in Indian context we are live on a wholesale CBDC there are many other countries or they are trying like Singapore, Canada, they have done Ambridge and there are many more other projects under BIS are giving a lot of action around wholesale so this is given by BIS right the bank or international settlement how a CBDC should be designed defined and when should go live very first step take care of your monetary policies this is the way RBI is doing coming up with new monetary policies with a view of they are going to come up with a digital rupees right second step which is your architecture whether it is going to be centralized architecture or decentralized architecture then come up with your access whether it is a token based access or account based access and finally which are all those use case say example cross border payment or retail payments and so on so as a part of your concept note say example RB has come up with a very good concept note it talks a lot about all of these four areas monetary policies architecture technical implementation and technical expectation and the usage right it gives a lot of confidence for every country if they really align with these kind of a guideline so every CBDC has a some features like it is a low cost convertible recognition availability like there are other system level features like good throughput availability security interoperability scalability offer while in any context there are more than 1 billion people how they will operate on CBDC while UPI is there which operates on a lot of TPS we need to see how CBDC will be there then institutional features like a strong legal framework and standards so any CBDC wants to be implemented stage certainly we should look at all of these features should be made out there there are various architecture models are being published in many websites in a nutshell it could be a peer to peer it could be from a customer customer where your account will be at a central bank so that is a unilateral CBDC instead of issuance of a fiat by central bank can we do with some strong bank or some of those good banks like in Indian context like state bank or ICCSDFC this could be something like an intermediate CBDC out there and a synthetic CBDC where we see central banks issue those fiat with the help of some of these strong banks so these are all the different architecture models are available so while there is a lot of things we know now about CBDC BIS it has a lot of attention towards how every country should adopt the CBDC I heard of modernization of finance done by big techs so why world is moving around CBDC primarily world is moving around CBDC because of fear of crypto these are all my personal views fear of cryptocurrencies or fear of table coins the way we have seen Libras or a threat from big techs like Google or Facebook or Meta bringing their own ecosystems and a global peer pressure the way some of the larger countries in Asia are operating or US or EU wants to create their dominance so every country is now in the race of a CBDC out there so India also want to be there so that we also be part of those interoperable CBDCs out there today in 2022 we could see 100 plus countries are working around CBDC 10 plus countries are live Jamaica's are smaller countries like African countries Nigeria are live many countries are exploring alternate international payments like UPS being spoken to with the UAE France or with Singapore many other continents are looking at how they can use CBDC among those countries G7 economies US UK to take that railroad of CBDCs 19 of G20 countries are already there on the exploration of CBDC I would like to see how India collaborates with all of these countries and create a better interoperable model sooner or later down the line 2 to 3 years while we talk a lot of a CBDC adoption I may always keep attention or bring a guideline that how we should have a interoperable monetary policies interoperable technical architect I think in my view hyper ledger and many other players like actors at hyper ledger can give that kind of a liberty to create interoperable connects among 2 blockchains or among 2 CBDCs out there these are the prominent CBDC retail adoption Turkey equator so CBDC is not new it is since 1992 or 2014 many smaller countries adopted and failed like recent after 2000 China is doing since 2014 or so it is a high time for many other countries to be part of this race where we could see these are those countries that are doing wholesale CBDC example Canada to Singapore or UAE with Hong Kong or China and so on where a lot of a collaboration is happening worldwide I think we have seen this slide earlier example China's CBDC built on in my view hyper ledger or you talk about CBDC this particular CBDC has gone with the multiple other platforms and now they have done a lot of research on R3s or hyper ledgers or Etheriums so that gives attention today while you are part of CBDC exploration do a lot of research technology experimentation so that we should have a better CBDC implementation this is one of the successful CBDC implementation at Cambodia backed by hyper ledger era so and I think 19% people are on this relevant mobile app in a country like Cambodia EU has published their architecture backed by blockchain or ledger ecosystem so if you look at overall adoption many countries have done a lot of experimentation around CBDCs retail or wholesale things are moving very fast in this context in Indian context RBI keeps announcing they are working on it and all of a sudden we have seen launch of a wholesale and furthermore we will see launch of a retail pilot also India is a big country India has more than 1.2 billion people almost 600 million bank accounts and maybe more than that and there are various instruments various bank types cooperative banks small finance banks insurance companies wealth companies PSU banks is not going to be very easy in Indian context around the adoption rights so in India the whole process started back in 2019 since then we have seen India kept on announcing they are coming with the CBDC but prominently we have seen February 2022 which was a government's announced on a digital rupee or E rupee and we have seen October 2022 RBI has come up with a CBDC concept typically talks about technology typically talks about monetary policies expectations around blockchain platforms or non blockchain platform and this is reality it has become a reality in November 2022 they have launched a wholesale CBDC with some kind of a transactions and now they have announced that they are working with the 5 banks on a retail CBDC right why India wants to go with the CBDC there are many examples like just like other countries it provides a compliment to cash it promotes a cashless economy it controls monetary policies we want to be the global race that is why we need a digital rupee it is going to eventually going to help a cross domestic product the value can go up to 3% with the right adoption of a CBDC it will improve cross border payment and it will distract the investors to do investment due to cryptase and all cryptos and all it is going to do lot of quicker payments and life cycles today we imagine CBDC at India only around payments or cross border or wholesale but there are lot of use cases which I will cover within the next 5 minutes which are those use cases India will look at actual implementation yeah so these are the design CBDC design consideration it should be traceable it should be without bank account or with bank account it is going to be legal tender so this is something which is mentioned in RBI's vision statement this is a summary of RBI vision statement although in RBI vision statement they also announced some of the challenges could be so this in the next next RBI's concept note should talk lot about how they will cover up offline CBDCs how they should cover up better monetary policies and how they will bring on the adoption of a CBDC although they will come off the technical implementation but they need to see how cyber threats how they will really safeguard the CBDC and so on so in a summary of RBI's concept note it talks lot about expectation around the strong cyber security technical stability and resilience and sound technical governance it is going to be very huge impact on a CBDC 80% of Indian population is on a banking there are more than 22 private sector banks 46 foreign banks 56 ruler banks many urban cooperative and many ruler cooperative banks imagine the way we have created our financial ecosystem down the line last 50-60 years we are going to change it is not going to happen in one year two year it will take its own time and it's going to be phenomenal implementation in Indian context so RBI concept note talk about they need a scalable platform they need a robust to ensure the stability of the financial ecosystem how access control should be there how cross platform should be there it talks about the data which they will cater should have a reporting analyst mechanism. it talks about how customer grievances will be handled with the help of customer support units it talks about the integrations with other existing core banking platform it talks about how we will take care of fraud monitoring so RBI concept net talk a lot about technology choice or technology platform choice also it talks about architecture considering architecture should be centralized or decentralized or it should be a zero downtime because there are a lot of practice around UPI but UPI if goes down how it will be possible we may sustain but our CBDC goes down it will be in havoc so it is going to be very important to have a right architecture for CBDC transition per seconds could be into range of 20,000 to 30,000 TPS I am talking lean design how do we take care of the whole architecture around cyber attacks and followed by mission critical approach so this is just a summary of RBI concept note on a technology side I have not covered the monetary side because it will be covered by the functional financial experts out there today's India is quite ready on digital rupee because India is already sitting on railroads like Aadhaar, DG locker to onboard a customer decentralized KYC like projects will really help digital rupee to get into reality account aggregator is going to help digital rupee to bring on a right consent model so India today sitting on a lot of railroads which will make tomorrow's digital rupee reality so why do we need blockchain in digital rupee so it will really help better efficiency and a security the way RBI concept notes talk about how can we reduce reconciliation settlement cost so DLT helps out there it brings on a lot of transparency and audit trails DLT helps out there DLT smart contract can really helpful to implement a token based on CBDC out there or a programmable money which concept not talk about so it's very very important for every country some of the countries has approached non-DLT approach and eventually they move ahead with digital rupee back or their CBDC backed by blockchain so our readiness we have a comprehensive so every country is ready if they have these four aspects comprehensive digital infrastructure where we have as a country like India well functioning central banks RBI is one of the strong regulator effective governance we have seen how robust is the banking ecosystem all about with all of these different banking models and a better financial technology knowledge the way we have seen huge knowledge experts companies out there with all these four aspects reading the in digital rupee is a gear to really build on a better digital rupee on all these four layers which we have gathered from a BIS international settlement architecture better monetary policy better architecture how do we use it and which are those use cases better monetary policies architecture centralized decentralized which are those user access account or token pass and finally use of a digital rupee retail or a whole system so friends when you talk about a use cases we'll build those CBDC right in former digital rupee and there are this some guidelines given by BIS or some of those experts out there so create those user stories so in an Indian context there are many user stories which will come up and say hey let's build digital rupee for real time settlement helicopter many operations transition towards a less cash society tracking the currency and improve cross border so I will not be surprised we'll have a solar coin backed by India's digital rupee down there in Rajasthan we can have a mill coin which operates in a commodity or ecosystems in Gujarat to really safeguard all these corruption or man in middle things which does operate in Gujarat or a sugarcane coin in Maharashtra or a wheat coin for a farmer for a Punjab or a direct debit transfer schemes which is a government can really direct debit direct give this cash or a benefit to the wallets of the customers today it takes it's a manual process lot of an intermediate fraud does happen so SBI has tried with the e-rupee successfully and I think next wave it can operate in online and offline model also India has come up with a business correspondent model in 2011 and asked all the PSU to onboard villages to create a better financial inclusion it has lot of official challenges I have personally been to many villages and I have seen literacy financial literacy having right infrastructure internet I think CPTC or digital rupee coming up with a better business correspondent model will be a boon offline payments how can we have a although India is solving these problems with the project called Bharat net across all the villages coming with a lot of smart cities also so but still if you go back offline it should work offline so RBI's concept talks about offline payments also or you talk about retailers of SME payments today we see a lot of QR codes out there with the help of a phone pay, Google pay and so on so similar way you will see how SME can accept through the wallets of the retail customers we could see these kind of adoption so eventually certainly it's going to take a lot of time but in a nutshell it is going to happen and India CPTC will really help country to boost the GDP to 3% that's going to be happen and while we do talk a lot about digital rupee there are a lot of guidance or some kind of a suggestion the way we have seen how other countries are doing some of the best practices so let's look at how country specific conditions so while we look at our country specific condition there are countries like Nigeria or Bahamas they couldn't anticipate their country specific condition there were some failure impacts so let's look learn from other CPTC implementation the financial stability of your country is very very important while you come up with a better CPTC model Bahamas has onboarded but they have not placed a limit to the holdings of CPTC later on they changed that privacy concerns trust equilibrium how can we create trust today today bank has created trust among the customers and it has created over a couple of years how all of a sudden you want to create the trust with some kind of a digital rupee or yuan or a by force or some kind of a literacy program is going to be very very important right architectures because right architecture for a larger ecosystem larger countries interoperable will give a lot of a boon for a CPTC well functioning CPTCs the IMFs keeps on telling talking about the collaboration keep collaborating technology to collaborate community should come up and create a lot of projects happen to see how hyper larger is coming with a lot of ecosystems around the CPTCs IMF keeps on saying apart from a monetary policy collaboration collaborate on technology interoperability between two blockchain fabrics so these are some lessons from a various other CPTCs there are further more considerations considering the design aspect privacy aspect so these are all from some of those existing CPTC implementation global politics you speak about US dollar or China's yuan CPTC is not new it was always there in can be implemented without blockchain also like we have seen Bank of Finland done in 1992 or Ecuador done in 2014 so there are a lot of things are happening CPTCs right and we need to see how we can really choose a technology platform in my view personal view the way RBI has announced their technology expectation they have announced various others aspect around architecture there are many other platforms are available right so when you enter into DL or ERP concept note this could be the standard of some kind of architecture for customers or merchants or wallets to access offline payments back in a CPTC integrated with the banking ecosystem whether it is a central or some of the power banks and backed up by some of the wallet ecosystems or existing blockchain ledgers and so on so with the same reputation these are all the features of a CPTC in my view many countries have done a lot of a lot of experimentations right if you see China has done experimentations where the question marks in my view I know they have done it on hyper ledger there are other countries like Uruguay, Ukraine, Bahamas, Eastern Caribbean announced it is on a hyper ledger or there are some countries which we have seen like Canada or Singapore or Thailand, Hong Kong, HK we are doing I think people have done a lot of things on R3 codas and eventually moved on to the hyper ledgers and so on so in my view many countries have done DLT based, non-DLT based, E-Corona was non-DLT now slowly they are going on on a DLT based like Canada, Singapore, Thailand it's a DLT based so it could be DLT, non-DLT based just to learn what is CPTC it can start with a non-DLT but eventually you need to create a DLT based because most of the countries are creating that interoperable DLT backed model right like people bank of China, EU so this is something what they cover what kind of a consensus mechanism, what is the throughput they are requiring whether it is a DLT, non-DLT based, how they are creating conversion of their CPTCs to the existing their traditional ecosystems so in a nutshell what we have seen globally blockchain platform choice as a hyper ledger why because if you talk about account token based or enterprise ecosystems a private enterprise we will always look at a hyper ledger kind of a ecosystem furthermore you want to do a token based hyper ledger support chain code contracts which can be really relatively very good ecosystems out there right while others other ecosystem even Embry just tried with the Ethereum and some kind of a some kind of a hot stuff BFT consensus but eventually now they will also it's not the throughput expectation is not really meeting out there like how hyper ledger is implemented in Cambodia hyper ledger has now equipped with a lot of other CBD implementation on the community hyper ledger cactus which can give a connector between two CPTCs as a business model for a for a full test while there are other platforms I look at largely on a high how hyper ledger fabric and the overall innovations out at various communities will bring very good ecosystem today at a block stack we are also bringing on this FIS reference architecture how a CBDC should have a wallet and various other services we are embarking to build same kind of a model with the hyper ledger with all of these components so that's in that's in a that's a journey for all of us so I think thank you so much in interest of a time we can stop here so thank you so much hyper ledger a financial market special interest group we've been sir and Julian for bringing me here to talk around why blockchain is needed how India is adopting blockchain how digital rupees becoming reality with the best practices with the RBI supports and companies like NPC and the banks and thanks to all of our partners who has even a lot of interest due to this presentation settlement origrap new street zeef snapper and so on yeah so thank you so much excellent thank you thank you do you want to stop the presentation now and then let's move we can even though we reach time I think we can have a little bit of a Q&A session yeah and fifth and are you there as well somewhere amongst all these great people yes there I am there I am I was awesome persona so maybe we can have a cute we've got a few questions but maybe if people put their hands up we can bring them out to ask questions maybe just for another five or 10 minutes what do you think or maybe if you could do you have any questions you'd like to start with well I don't even know where to start that was a amazing barrage of information so the first question is of course that stuff is going to be available for sharing by people many people have already asked that question and we will put it up anyway I'll withdraw and have someone else talk about things because I don't want to hold up the yeah so any questions from anybody I'm trying to look through I have there's a lot in the chat yeah Julian hi this is Balaji from Bangalore how are you excellent good to hear from you about yeah I present a great presentation my question I actually put it on chat as well so if you look at it most of the popular projects people of banks are here are really experimented with around trade finance and also cross-border transfers so my question to you was what have you seen the trend around it is that is that being a really a good exercise has there been any good return on investments in that area for banks or this has just been being there done that types yeah I think it's a very good question the way we have seen initial infosys have done some kind of a trade finance or cross-border per se how ICSA or ICSA done with the in red sympathy so I think is looking at the last four or five years of history it is not picked up but the RBA Innovation Hub has come up with the trade finance that to start with the LCPG kind of use cases is going to pick up so what they have asked internally to create a process once the process and governance created we can certainly add up trade finance kind of an ecosystem in Indian content there are three regulated trade and few of them are coming on a blockchain aligned with Axis Bank and we are also hand holding some of the non-regulated trade within like say example like invoices counting and others so I think see blockchain is a foundation it takes its own time but I think next two to three years I think these railroads will be on a blockchain now talking about a trade finance is the largest and biggest use case to bring on adoption and there are a lot of efforts being done by IBM and many other trade chains worldwide I think it's eventually slowly slowly getting adopted because it's not a direct connected to the customers or retail customers so down the line you will see direct connected to the retail customers are also now picking up so in a nutshell it's a gradual process people want to do it but the governance process alignment of a mindset is something which we need to look at how we will bring on actual output yeah sure thank you so there are two hands up the first one was Parash you have anything to ask or I think he needs to unmute yeah hello yes we can hear you now yeah yeah person I just wanted to ask whether RBI is going to launch CVDC on December 1st or it is going to be the by next year April so this is a friendly conversation yeah so I can answer friendly so since we have seen government has announced digital rupee has to come this year so so we need to see although announcements are happening but the actual adoption of CVDC is a big game right so we have done some transaction on wholesale followed by retail exercise started it is going to be very gradual process there are a lot of financial instruments a lot of monetary policies to be changed around various instruments like deposits and many other areas right so it is going to be exercise and slowly slowly we will cover one area down the line secondary third area but it has to be start with some go live in my view I think that goal I should happen soon the next year okay thanks thanks person thanks Mr. Gandhi hi thanks person for the nice presentation it has a lot of information in the short duration yeah I know yeah yeah so yeah basically my question is like basically hyper ledger fabric like how many transactions it can actually support are in fact like someone has asked in the Q&A that like what would be the requirement of transactions per second for India and like what would be the latencies in terms of response times would it be in the UPI scale or like it would be much better CVDC expectation in India will be at least five times than UPI so yeah so that's what because UPI operates only around payments right but CVDC will be going on not only payments but many other use cases we spoke about around DBT, BC models or community models so and many more instruments will also come as a form of like micro finance and micro payments and micro lending and many more others and many more IoT devices will also will be riding on the CVDC right backed by some kind of identity or some kind of account so I think in my view it's not only payment but many other areas the TPS will be today I think you in my capacity UPI for 15 minutes can handle around 15,000 TPS or so it has reached up to like 5,000 TPS or so but I think expectation for India into begin with could be 20,000 TPS maybe more than that as far as this concern now coming back why hyper ledger or why not some other right so hyper ledger has its own private permission network and as far as throughput is a concern it can be between tune right with a lot of other we have seen at least in our lab how we can really use hyper ledger to that throughput although we don't have that data set to really handle or to test it out in my view today's capacity there are many platforms are available but looking at RBI's concept note and their expectations around not only throughput but other areas like governance, better scalability and better security right permission so I think this is one of the prominent answer and many countries are I think I will not be surprised if tomorrow somebody in India announced hyper ledger is a choice to do with any of those CVDC implementations retail or retail or wholesale because hyper ledger does support smart contract also we can have a token also on top of that and we can certainly see how we can yeah so I think it's a process of research to see experimentation and to go ahead yeah thank you Prasanna Hi Prasanna that was extremely insightful so my question was do you foresee any use cases in the securities market because we mostly discussed around the banking domain and I recently read that NSE and BSE are also evaluating it yeah yeah yeah so I think there are some use cases in securities and some of the companies which I showcased so there is a company called Inten they are doing these use cases on securities on blockchain even digital age is doing some of the use cases on a blockchain so I think there is an also web and it's a good market to have use cases on securities yeah Pankaj You can hear me now, Hi Prasanna everything was fine you presented very well and everything got well and I could understand certain things you can hear me now right everyone can hear Yes sir Yes Okay and Pankaj Tomar why question was because we have see it's not a competition kind of thing here I'm just telling can does RBI has a solution which can clear I mean not TPS A lot of companies talk about TPS TPS you know transaction per second but there is no meaning it has to be the transaction clearing time and the block any time Yeah Correct Is RBI having a solution my simple question to you and all can they do they have a solution today which can handle 50 million transactions in 24 hours T minus 0 Can any can any blockchain handle that 50 million transactions in 24 hours clearing and talking about wallet to wallet transfers whether it's individual intermediaries banks or anyone or the individuals Otherwise you know what will happen is people will start only talking about piloting piloting every country is doing the piloting but where is the commercial scale solution which every country needs So I think in my view the way NPCI which is a prominent company and my payments are for RBI they have done some experimentation around a product called Vajra so Vajra was an attention towards how can we reduce the settlement cycle It has started in 2018 and so on so it is not in public but I am sure they are working on these kind of infrastructure to be built right although we always say that Apart from payment experience there is another experience which is operational settlement reconciliation so I think this is a very good question Tomer only time will answer how we are really bring on that kind of expectation No no my question is there a technology available in the world which can handle this or things will evolve is fine but as of today is there at public public ledger available DLT kind of because see is there a system available in the world as of today But simple question actually can anyone do this I am saying 50 million transactions in 24 hours D-0 otherwise you know people will keep piloting piloting like others are doing and a lot of people are following those piloting system My simple question I don't need anything yet and that was a great presentation Yeah I am appreciating your questions so things may not be available right now I am sorry I am entering into the world PHQ has developed a solution showed to the RBI we can clear 50 million transactions in 24 hours that is already there and we have shown that we are launching in one weeks time I am just not intervening here I am just telling the reality people should know there is a solution available if anybody wants to see the proof we can show that 50 million transactions in 24 hours that will be the challenge to other blockchain industries There is a solution available in the world today for a commercial scale CBDC kind of thing it is there already but it is not already shown to the guys and they have seen it already I am just telling the world and it is a DLT public ledger system That was my question and I could get the answer there is no other system available in the world which can handle a commercial scale CBDC because where people can have to mint trillions then transfer to the banks then the banks will transfer the intermediaries then the bodies they will transfer cross-border other payments and finally go to the individual who is using it kind of a UPI system I mean that was my thing but it means there is no system available in the world today which can handle a commercial scale CBDC system right Very simple question No I think that's what I said it is very good question although sometimes we don't immediately promote right by saying yeah so I am aware PHQ is there No no we have the solution we showed to RBI you know I am not promoting here because we are not interested in selling that's what I am asking I was curious you know I was curious to know because you have been connecting a lot of people I was just curious to know is there any other solution available so that was my idea was to know that Let's connect offline happy to meet you in person also if you are around in Bangalore today so I think we already texted each other so looking forward I am fortunate fortunately we have the solution which can I am telling openly to the world 50 million transactions Anyway I am going to stop here and I stop here now Yeah yeah please I mean since you asked the world maybe the world will answer because there are you know L2 solutions and other ways of increasing the throughput Even in hyperledger fabric they had several tests run when you say can you do it in the real world you know it's always going to be a challenge to put a system of that scale into the real world even PHQ I am sure You know because it's not yet in production so let's let's say that you know everybody is thinking about these kind of scales And people have different like somebody just put up a thing saying ZK rollups you know most of them are layer 2 solutions which are not directly writing but snapshotting once in a while for security to the blockchain But anyway we are already here Julian what do you think you want others to intervene or ask questions Yeah people ask questions we also we have an ebook and cbdc we have in Nigeria as many kind of there are production the cbdc's but in terms of that pacific performance I think I think vip and answered that right So but it's great we're it's great to see lots of technologies out there and lots of people trying to solve these problems right it's very cool so any but any other questions right because we actually are This is the first time we've gone so much over time I think Prasanna that just speaks to your great presentation right and I think as Gandhi did you have one more question or are we going to now call it an end right Yeah so one more question I had to personalize basically like he mentioned about milk coin and wheat coin so basically I'm curious on who is going to issue these coins. I think a very good question and I think similarly if say example if you want to do a country word roll out instead of that we can create this kind of a so called same digital be renamed as a male coin or some kind of a wheat coin or a sugarcane and operated into some of the communities if you go and study the whole ecosystems in Gujarat or in Punjab a lot of manual interventions although some of the transistors backed by rupee also again same Reconciliation settlement come to the picture as a dream we can always look at how instead of having some some some coin we keep launching right so same milk or same wheat coin can be issued by some of the banks right the way we will come up with the whole structure so it can be issued against the commodities to these customers so although it will be it will be like three of these models right peer to peer or improve some banks some local banks example in Gujarat some identifying some large local bank so that's how it can be issued to be operated in that whole model that was the only concept I said it could be I will not should not be surprised we'll see some kind of a search use cases here. Yeah, thank you. Okay, I think we'll call it right now. Thank you. Thank you very much thank you everyone for for attending and all those great questions. If you want to continue the whole point this is debate right. So we do have a wiki. You can go wiki hi belated org and you can go directly to the financial markets. SIG and see information that we're going to do more and I think we're going to do more with you and this this part of the world which is very, very exciting. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Julian and I think through this through this conversion we come to know the whole overall level of expertise available and what's the next level challenge. Some of the questions certainly give kind of a moment of motivation for me to get into more depth. You understand right so that's how. So thank you so much for this opportunity. It's an absolute pleasure. And thank you everyone. Do you have any final words, seeing as it must be nearly midnight there on Thanksgiving. Yeah, I hear music coming from downstairs. So it's probably time for me to start dancing. Anyway, the, it was a wonderful conversation but I think, you know, we probably need to slow down a little bit and then talk about you know, they way things are developing globally. You know why are certain certain countries more willing to experiment why some not, you know what is leapfrogging you know what you know what kind of thing will having all those rails have effects on a very very rapidly expanding digital economy because if you don't have a digital identity system there and you bootstrap something like in the US with the social security number which is a big mess. And everybody is afraid that the government will somehow implement a system that is going to take over your lives, you know. So that's the fear, but in India we have other and of course the Supreme Court has already said in the case of other that privacy should be implemented. Now we have to see how that will be done already, you know, we have a system and how will that system be dial back or changed. And how will that integrate with all of this. It's a wonderful time to be alive. There's a lot of a lot of interesting things happening. They certainly are. Thank you. And maybe Kamlesh as he's the co-chair of our Indian chapter to see Kamlesh pop on the camera, do you want to say anything Kamlesh. All right, there you are. I think I think I think I think persona and I keep interacting and in the last few months, we are meeting everywhere in different cities. What persona what persona doing in the Indian community to talk about the blockchain and spreading the blockchain awareness I think this kind of leaders going to be maybe the kind of kind of the runner in the to start that in the blockchain technology and like because in the blockchain thing first you need to make some kind of awareness and some kind of education then people can implement it because it's very hard to understand what it is. And so that's where I think I'm in the right is India Blockchain Forum which we started is a group in India is now is a well recognized is a kind of nonprofit organization we set up. So all is good effort to talk about the blockchain adoption and bringing awareness in the in the system. Thank you. I think we're going to wrap there and take care and and look after yourselves right take care and look forward to this conversation and interact on our mailing list and every other way. All right, take care everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Take care guys.