 Hi and welcome to this Burlington mayoral forum presented by Town Meeting TV. I am Sasha Goldstein from Seven Days. I'll be moderating tonight alongside my colleague Matthew Roy. He and I are both news editors at the at the paper and we're thrilled to be with you tonight. We have six candidates here tonight. One dropped out, one was sick and this is a live event. We will be taking calls so if you'd like to participate that phone number is 802-862-3966 and we'll I'll read that again as we go throughout the night here. So we have just under two hours here, six candidates locked to get to. I'll give a little rundown of the rules here. Each candidate will be allowed to have a one-minute opening statement and then each candidate will have one and a half minutes to respond to the questions that I ask as well as questions from the public. We'll also give candidates the opportunity to ask one another a question and each candidate will also be allowed two 30-second rebuttals so if their name is called I will go to them and see if they want to respond to that. We'll also be going through each each candidate will answer in alphabetical order so we will and then that person will go to the end of the line. So with opening statements we want each candidate to tell us why they are running and what experience they bring to the position. So we will start in the alphabetical order with Haik Badrozian. Thank you very much Sasha. I'd like to say thank you to Channel 17 and to Seven Days for hosting this event and to the staff of each of these institutions for their vital work and keeping us all informed and connected. Hi I'm Haik Badrozian. I'm 48 years old. I'm a single parent with two great teenagers who go to Burlington schools. Hello Emmy and Tico. Thank you for watching. I was born in Burlington and I've lived here my entire life so far except for a few months in Philadelphia and about a year in Texas. I'm a graduate of Burlington High School, Community College of Vermont and the University of Vermont. I've worked in various industries over the years including as the owner of two businesses Haik's Secret Sandwiches and the hemp guitar strap from Nepal. For the past year and a half I've worked with the Vermont Department of Labor in Burlington and for about eight years before that I was an eligibility worker for economic services administering programs like Three Squares, Vermont and Fuel Assistance. I've been involved in politics since I was a kid. My mom took me to my first political rally when I was 11 and that was to see Geraldine Ferraro give a speech at Memorial Auditorium in 1984. When I was 22 I was elected to the Burlington City Council from Ward 3 which covers the Old North End and downtown. I served on the Council's License Committee and I was proud to sponsor a resolution recognizing Tibetan National Day that passed with unanimous support. In 2010 I want to see the Burlington School Board as a right-in candidate. While on the school board I was chair of the Policy Committee and I worked hard to help negotiate a contract that was fair to both teachers and taxpayers at that time. I've appeared on the ballot from Mayor twice before in 1991 and in 2001. Since 2006 I've been the author of a blog about Burlington politics and other topics at BurlingtonPaul.com. If you read about my campaign there that's BurlingtonPOL.com. In this election I believe Monroe Weinberger will almost certainly be re-elected on Town Meeting Day so I don't expect to win. Most people who run for office don't win but a positive and honest campaign can inspire creativity, promote ideas, and change the future whether the candidate gets elected or not. I have some ideas about renewing Burlington's sense of identity and the friendly positive vibe that we want to be known for. Ideas like connecting Battery Park in the waterfront with beautiful ramps and a stairway to create synergy between the parks and ideas like grabbing the steel skeleton of the former Moran plant and glass and creating Vermont's largest indoor greenhouse and botanical gardens out of it and doing little things like returning to the brightly colored police patch that we used to use. So that's a little bit about me and some of my ideas. Thanks to the audience for tuning in. I look forward to the discussion. Thank you. Thanks, Hank. Just a reminder, thank you. Matthew, my colleague, will be keeping time. He will be holding up the different things you can see there. He's got 30 seconds there. He'll say you're out of time. I should have mentioned that. I apologize. Just so everyone's aware, we do have a lot of candidates and a lot to get to. I'll try to be better about keeping people to the time and a reminder that Matthew will be doing that. Next up, thank you. Thank you, sir. How long was that speech? Because in my opinion, everybody should get the same amount. He went over a little bit. We're asking just that people try to state it. Ali Jiang, counselor, Ali Jiang is next. Thank you. Do I need to pin myself or that works? You're good. Perfect. Thank you so much for having us, Channel 17 and Seven Days. Thank you for this question. I think it's saying, please tell us why you're running and the experience that you bring. So as a lone independent elected official in the city of Berlin, representing one of the most conservative world in the city, as a member of the Board of Finance, a community builder, a social entrepreneur striving for the betterment of vulnerable populations. So as an educator and also a program manager, I'm also an immigrant and a person of color with lived experiences. I will bring all of these experiences with me to lead the great city of Wellington to become the best small city in North America. So as your next mayor, I will be implementing a vision for a fair, just, equitable city that works for everyone. As your next mayor, my administration will eradicate systems of oppression and discrimination against people of color and minority groups. My administration will strive for a meaningful collaboration between and with the City Council. Together we will strive for a sustainable economic development, smart growth, respect of our lake and environment, while ensuring public safety and fiscal responsibility. To learn more about me and why I'm running, please visit my website, AliJeng.com. Ali has always been your ally in City Hall, and I'm looking for your vote on time meeting day. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ali. And we'll move on to Will Ammons. One minute, please. Yes, sir. I just wanted to make a correction before I start. I'm actually an independent as well. So your vote counts. Get out and vote where I'm asked. Watch Motherless Brooklyn eminent domain, Robert Moses. More stage props than Lady Gaga, that's an actor, not a mayor. Great grandson of a Russian immigrant, we all came from somewhere. Exposure of fraud, waste and abuse in the city of Burlington. Many good employees in Burlington, including police, sold at the lowest possible level to cook stats. Arbitration certified, proven election tampering before, Atlanta training. Been challenged with many court cases since I testified against the city in a racial profiling case. Paper route Ward 4 and 7 when I was 12, Lakewood Estates, Ethan Island Parkway. Public speaker, Champlain College Full Scholarship, single parent awarded. Highly trained, America Postal Workers Union AFL, AFL CIO 8 to 10 years, training Chicago, Nueva York, New England, Boston, Vermont. Great grandfather slain in the freehold rug mill, wages hours and safe working conditions is very dear to my heart. Empire State Building was constructed in one year. City Hall, two years, five million wasted. Memorial auditorium, social gatherings, this mantle long before coronavirus, Mardi Gras, Arahap, Golden Gloves, mixed martial arts concerts, basketball practices, flea markets, plays and performances. Leadership unwilling to appoint a liaison to businesses wondering how to stay open so they shut their doors in a pay to play city dub going out of business. Bring in new business inventors that will benefit the tax base, local business owners and bring tourism to a once thriving city from places like Montreal and New York City. That's how Burlington recovers. Hashtag revive Burlington and I'm at Emmons for Mayor and there was a fake Instagram account started in my name. Will Emmons for Mayor that is not my Instagram or Twitter account. It's at Emmons for Mayor. Thank you. Rest. Thanks, Will. You basketball baseball coach. I'm sorry. I've forgotten that and volunteer with unapproved kids that chill snowboarding. Very, very spirited. Thank you. Next up, we'll go to Kevin McCarthy. Kevin McGrath. Oh, I'm sorry. Kevin McGrath. Yeah. Hi. Hi, Sasha. Okay. My name is Kevin McGrath and I'm the longtime resident Burlington and I'll give you the rundown of why I'm running. The purpose of my candidacy is to establish governmental systems of equal protection, respect, merit and ensure that these citizens work for all residents and citizens of Burlington. My goal as mayor is to create continuous improvement systems of merit, direct democracy, critical thinking that actually solve problems and to create an era of social justice that works for the entire community and work to create livable neighborhoods and work to end unaffordability policies in the city. One of my main proposals that I'd like to propose for social criminal justice is a legislative ban on the use of out of state prisons and for-profit prisons for inmates in Vermont. Also, I'd like to see the demilitarization, de-escalation of tensions between law enforcement and residency served and change the nature of police forces to safety forces to ensure the rights of all residents. And last, have a grandfathered residency requirement so that law enforcement lives in the community that they serve. I also would like to propose local government reforms for the city of Burlington to a full-time mayor, seven-member council government. We form planning, academic and community development, address issues of corrupted governmental processes, less ad hoc, direct democracy and less ad young government. Work for social justice by supporting the rights and dignity of those who rely on earned income from the negative effects of excessive wealth concentration. And I'd also like to see a number of education reforms like maybe the establishment of Vermont State University. Thanks, Kevin. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. And sorry about that. This is Kevin McGrath. I apologize. Yeah. I apologize, sir. Next up, we're going to go to City Councilor Max Tracy. Thank you so much to you, Matt and Sasha for hosting the debate and also to Town Meeting TV in seven days for putting it on as well. I'm running for mayor to make Burlington a city where all can afford to live. We know working people, people living on fixed incomes and families are being priced out of Burlington because of high property taxes, rent, childcare expenses and so much more. These trends are unacceptable and they prevent people from putting down stable routes in Burlington. My administration will prioritize being a city government that is accessible to all, collaborative, transparent and accountable with its actions. As mayor, I will invest in a vibrant future for the whole community. Together we can contain and overcome this pandemic, lift the local economy, clean up our lake, uproot systemic racism, reduce our impact on the climate and so much more. These bold actions not only address the issues of today but they make us more resilient for our future challenges as a city. Burlingtonians deserve better than maintaining the status quo that only works for the powerful few. This moment in time is one of struggle but it does not need to be one of fear. Let's be clear about what's at stake in this election. This is not about just surviving a pandemic. This is about having the courage as a community to take on our most pressing issues as a city. Electing a new mayor is exactly what our city needs to emerge stronger. When we work together, anything is possible. As your next mayor, I'll be your partner in building the future we deserve. Thank you very much. Max will move on to the incumbent Mayor Murrow Weinberger. Great. Thank you, Sasha. Thank you, Seven Days and Town Meeting TV for bringing us together tonight. I look forward to the day when we can have events like this in person again. But while better times are coming soon, for now we continue to grapple with a historic pandemic, a great recession, a long overview reckoning with racial justice and an accelerating climate emergency. This is a once in a century convergence of multiple simultaneous crises. This is a moment that deserves, that demands, proven leadership. Moments like this are no time for a mayor without management experience to be learning on the job. Last year has shown us how high the stakes are right now. Since the first days of this emergency, I've asked the city team to act on a simple, powerful belief that in a global pandemic, local actions matter. In response, we remade city government. We launched dozens of initiatives and that combined with the incredible vigilance of this community has made Burlington, Vermont one of the safest cities in the country throughout this pandemic. If you give me the opportunity to continue to serve this great city, that is the kind of relentless commitment that I'll bring to fight the virus, to leading the way out of this economic recession, leading the recovery, and to all of our major crises. Thank you for the chance to be with you tonight. I look forward to discussing these issues more over the course of the evening. Great. Thank you so much. And with that, we'll just dive right into the questions. A lot of these are read or submitted. We did solicit those. So the first one is... Can I just ask a quick question? How about the questions on the document that you send out? Are those going to be... Those are the topics of what we're going to talk about. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So the first one, obviously, the first one I'm going to dive into here is an issue that's been pretty important in our city and nationally the last year, especially, let's come to the forefront. And to start off, we'll go to Ali. The question is, what are your thoughts about the city's response thus far to racial equity issues in Burlington? What's missing? What could be strengthened? What would you propose to do to improve the situation for all Burlingtonians? Thank you again, Shasha. Yes. And I think, to date, the City of Burlington has not been doing so well over the past nine years. And I think as a city council, I have already started the plan by securing the creation of the Racial Equity Inclusion and Belonging Committee office currently being chaired by Taisha Green, the creation of a Racial Equity Inclusion Committee that I currently chair right now. And as the next mayor, I will oversee the implementation of the strategic planning currently being developed by Taisha Green and team alongside the Boston Consulting Group. In addition to those accomplishments, the biggest gain toward racial justice will be made when core city appointed positions reflect the racial diversity that exists in this great city. And an ongoing coordinated training for the city staff and our partners to understand that racial equity is actually a gift and it is also the future. I think Burlingtonians have now the chance to elect someone who has never been in office in terms of race and race of diversity. Thank you. Thank you very much, Ali. We will go next to Will. Yes. And certainly it's not a shot against you, Ali. Inclusion office, that was brought here in about 2014, if I'm not mistaken now. The Chief of Racial Profiling came about 2015. I witnessed the racial profiling assault in 2017. Reached out to Senator Sanders, reached out to ACLU, reached, I got plenty of managerial experience by the way, reached out to ACLU, reached out to the NAACP and nothing against those organizations. When I didn't get any results, I went and got a lawyer for the gentleman myself. I'm not going to say his name, but he was being assaulted and called the N word. And when he fought back, he was charged with a felony in three years in jail. So during court, they dragged it out for a year. I testified against the city of Burlington. I wanted to say how I feel about race in this city because question, I know that the mayor's socially engineered comments stating that Burlington has not thrived since the 1960s. That was when people were fighting for civil rights and getting beat with nightsticks in place where I'm from around is Asbury Park. It wasn't really happening in Vermont. So people might not be aware of that, but they are because of history. Batman and Leahy Dark Knight Rises, the democracy puzzle. I will be going through the police department with a couple of police and citizens that I know and addressing all racial profiling incidents as well as priority number one. That is priority number equal and equitable enforcement of the rules is imperative to a thriving city. Can't have it without it. Thanks a lot. Well, let's go next to Kevin McGrath. Hi. As far as social justice, the most important thing for me personally right now is the legislative pursuing a legislative ban on out of state prisons and for-profit prisons using inmates from Vermont. That accompanied with the general demilitarization of law enforcement is like a top priority. We need to de-escalate the tensions between law enforcement and the residents. We need to have people accountable. We need to have, like I say, change the nature of law enforcement to public safety. And like I say, I think it's important that law enforcement live in the communities or have some type of feel for the communities that they live in. And as far as what's going on in Burlington, it hasn't been adequate. And we really need, for step number one, basically to bring the prisoners home from Mississippi and ban that practice. And that would be a good start. And then we can start on the other issues in the state and in the city. Thanks a lot, Kevin. We'll go on next to Max Tracy. Great. Thanks for asking such an important question. I'm committed to uprooting systemic racism across our city by making sure that institutions are held accountable for their actions. Our police department, for example, must be held accountable through a real independent community oversight to the disproportionate use of force leveraged against our Black and Brown neighbors. Department data shows that Black people represented 28% of use of force cases during the first 10 months of 2020, despite comprising just 6% of the city's population. This is the highest rate recorded since Mayor Weinberger has been in office. In response, we must continue to transform public safety by transitioning armed officer positions into social support roles that better address community needs, like trauma-informed mental health support, substance use disorder treatment to address the dire, the dire opiate crisis that we face, and outreach to individuals experiencing houselessness, among others. Our city's racial justice efforts must go beyond public safety, though, to include cultural and economic empowerment in line with Operation Phoenix Rise forwarded by the Racial Justice Alliance. We must ensure that business, land, and home ownership become more accessible and affordable options for BIPOC community members. 97.7% of Burlington's Black and Brown neighbors are renters, with just 2.3% owning their home compared to 38% of White residents. In addition to more broad-based policies like rent stabilization, we should, for example, create targeted revolving loan funds to support BIPOC and business and home ownership across the board. Thank you very much. Let's go next to Mayor Weinberger. Great. Thank you, Sasha. Thanks for this question. Reckoning with our country and our community's long, shameful history of racial injustice is going to be a dominant issue of the next three years, and it's really going to be a dominant issue for many years beyond that. This is an issue that I am deeply, personally committed to making progress on. Let me talk about just three big areas. There's many things to discuss, but let me just focus on three. One is really a hot, urgent issue right now. As we continue to fight the virus and attempt to build our way out of this economic recession, every day we need to make sure we are looking at the work we're doing through the lens of racial justice and make sure that we are having a racially just public health response and racially just economic recovery. I launched a plan to do just that last June. We've tried to stay true to that every day. We're doing it right now as we try to distribute the vaccine and more. Secondly, last summer with over 30 organizations from really leading organizations here in Chittenden County, I declared racism a public health emergency here in Burlington. Over the next three years, we need to forge progress addressing those racial disparities, ending that emergency. We had a milestone with that work just this week when our new public health equity manager was hired in the years ahead. If I get to continue to lead this work, I intend to bring the same urgency, focus, focus on data, focus on rapid deployment of resources that we brought to the opioid epidemic to this issue. Finally, we have a real opportunity to lead the country with our task force on reparations. Let me just say one last thing. When I say this is an issue that is deeply personal to me, I say that because both of my daughters are children of color and I wake up every morning and I tell myself when I am done in this job, I want to be able to say to them that I did everything I could as the mayor of Burlington to assure that Burlington would be the best community it could be for them. That's the kind of commitment I bring to this work. Thank you very much for that and Haik will go on to you. Thanks very much. I think as mayor, probably one of the most important things you can do is hire a racially diverse staff. That includes police, importantly. The more diverse the police force, the better. I think the city should continue to utilize and strengthen its relationships with organizations like the Africans living in Vermont, the joint urban ministry project, Boys and Girls Club, and then to lead by example by calling out microaggressions or implicit bias where you see it, and by continuing to institute training for city workers about those things. Great. Thank you very much. Before we go on to a second question, Matthew, is there anyone calling in? Do we want to bring someone off the phone? Sasha, we do have a caller who had a question about housing. Sir, before you read that off, can I just ask a quick question, and I don't mean to transpose the order of business in Robert's Rules of Order and all that, but is it possible that we could go through the questions on the essay first? We're going, we're going to go through the, Robert's Rules of Orders don't really apply here. We're going to go to a caller on the phone who has a question about housing. Fair enough, because there was a housing question, that's all I asked. Do we have the caller? The question is, what will each candidate do to address rising rents and housing costs in the city? Okay, so that was about rising rents and housing costs in the city. We started, last question with Ali, so we'll start this one with Will. And I don't want to be redundant because I know that that was one of the similar questions on the essay, which I'll answer later, just speaking off the top of my head. Bring in new business, encourage new business, show businesses how to stay open. That's going to encourage tenants and ownership units, more building of ownership units, which will also benefit contractors that are currently building rental units primarily in the city of Wellington, which, as far as people that are currently in Wellington, residents which have first priority, even if they're from out of state, their residents and the current residents that are long time residents would want priority to housing and the availability of housing. And if it's dependent on the welfare, but the salary of the person, then that would be processed in a certain type of way. I would always love to see Burlington residents get priority consideration, but I also would like to see more ownership units. And that's definitely what I'm going to do when I get elected. And in any case, also rental units, the prices, rent control in New York City is a nice thing when they set a limitation on a place when, for instance, I'll use the state of New Jersey very high to live, but also in Vermont, it's like super high to live as well. But you're not getting a lot of the close by amenities. So I would definitely like to change that by bringing in local vendors, relaxing the tax goes a little bit with the help of the community and what they think, and then bringing in like vendorships and businesses, because Burlington, if you look around, it's been going out of business for at least, I mean, it was thriving in 2011, not 1960, but as far as community-ness, open businesses provide community-ness, and that brings in bigger businesses, which also bring more community. So the next thing you know, within a year, you have a nice growth pattern. Okay. Thanks, Will. Just to address what Will was asking about, we did send the candidates ahead of time some questions that were sort of meant more as topics that we might ask throughout the event tonight, and we are taking questions from callers as they come in. So the questions as phrased might not be, as you've seen them written ahead of time. So just that's that's that. Let's move on now to Kevin. Hi. It's interesting he talks about Burlington in 2011. Well, between 1995 and 2000, Burlington was a much more dynamic, better city than it is now. 20 years later, it's on the verge of being a failed city, and bad housing policy has played a large role in that. We need to have a new attitude towards housing in a city. We need more owner-occupied structures. We need different ways of doing things. We need to get our planning processes, like community economic development processes. They need to be come in line with the citizens and residents of Burlington. They have a lot of challenges here in the near future. And one of the biggest one is Airbnb. It threatens to strip mine, the whole city. And that's what I mean about protecting residents against excessive wealth concentration where people from other states are ready now our city to make money. And then we have poor quality housing and all those issues that go with it. So I'm definitely looking for some type of economic justice and a different approach to the way they do things now. And the issue is very complex. They've been talking about it for a long time and a lot of time. So thanks. Thanks, Kevin. Let's go on next to Max Tracy. Sure. So I think in a pretty fundamental way that capitalism is the root cause of the housing crisis in Burlington and across the United States, homes have been transformed into commodities and profit is seen as being much more important than social need. I think the poor are being forced to pay for more for worse housing while everyone else competes for a limited supply of safe, decent and affordable housing. Stagnant wages in our community combined with steadily increasing rents have caused over 60% of renters to pay far more than the 30% of rental income of income for rent, which is the level that's considered to be kind of reasonable for what you should be spending on that housing cost. And so I'll focus on the three P's of a progressive housing agenda to produce new housing with a specific emphasis on homes that serve low and moderate income families, preserving existing housing stock of affordable housing, and protecting those who are marginalized and vulnerable through expanding tenant protections. I think the current mayor has focused on a more market driven supply only strategy. And as rents rise wages have not, we need to implement rent stabilization policies that brings rents in alignment with people's real incomes. As mayor, I will lead this effort through a charter change granting the city this authority and then would facilitate a public engagement process that would culminate in the passage of new rent stabilization ordinances. Housing costs are out of control and we need to do much more to bring them under control. Great. Thank you very much, Max. Let's go on to Murrow. Thanks, Sasha. I appreciate the question from the caller. This is one of the most important and defining issues in this race and a lot of what you just heard from Councilor Tracy is just flatly inaccurate. I want to be really clear about this. Housing has been a major priority of mine for the last nine years. We have made great progress and the policies that Councilor Tracy just talked about the one to the degree they differ from policies I pursued and many of them are my policies, but to the degree they differ, they would take us backwards, not forward. Housing is an issue really my whole professional career has been focused to from the time my first job out of college was really wasn't even a job. I was a volunteer for Habitat for Humanity in America, Georgia. And from that time forward, I really believe that housing, it should be a human right. But if we're serious about that, if it's going to be more than just a slogan, we have to build a lot more homes. That is the that is the core of this issue. The core of this issue is not capitalism. The core of the issue is we don't have enough homes. And my policy has been to have an and and and strategy to build as many more homes as possible. I have been as committed to the working with the nonprofits and using all the governmental sources we can to build as much and preserve as much permanently affordable housing as possible. I hold my record on that up against Mayor Sanders, Mayor Covell. I that's the background I came from was building permanently affordable housing and we've built hundreds and hundreds of new homes and preserved hundreds of homes in my time in office. That's not enough though, if we're serious about actually making housing a human right. If we're serious about it, we have to build more homes any way we can. And that is what I have done by fixing Brauenton's broken broken housing market and we have been successful. Over the last nine years, we have built more than 1300 homes. Rents are not rising out of control now. They were when I came into office. They're not now. They've been we have doubled the vacancy rate and rents have stabilized. Now's not the time to go backward to the failed policies of the past. Let's keep going the direction we're going. Thank you. Thank you. Max, I don't know if you wanted to use a rebuttal. I'll give you an option if you want. Like I said, everyone has two 30 seconds. I know he mentioned you. If you if you'd like to, you can. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think I don't, you know, I think that people have continued to express to me that they continue to spend an exorbitant amount of their incomes on housing costs in the city having to make very real choices between food and healthcare and paying their rent every month. And so while, you know, we've brought additional units on the line, that has not done nearly enough to make material changes to people's well-being in this city, such that rents have stabilized, let alone reduced in a way that that's been able to improve people's quality of life or expanded their access to safe and affordable housing. Thanks a lot. Point of information, Sasha. I just heard the same two opening speeches I heard in the last corner debate. And then I heard the same back and forth rebuttal conversation. I'm just pointing that out to everybody listening. Thank you very much. We appreciate that. Morel, I don't know. What are you indicating you wanted to say something? That's okay, Sasha. I'll save my two bottles. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you. Let's go on next to hike. Thank you very much. Housing and rental is a vexing problem. And I'm not sure that the answer is simply to build more and more housing because I don't think this necessarily follows the classic economics of supply and demand. We can build more and more housing, but more and more people are just going to come. So we're never going to meet the demand because the demand is infinite. So that's what makes it so vexing, I think. I agree with some of the other candidates that mentioned ownership units. Owning is cheaper than renting. And so if you want to bring down the cost of housing in aggregate, you can do that with a higher percentage of ownership units. The problem is not everybody can afford the initial costs and the barriers to ownership. So I think where we can find ways to support organizations, cooperative housings, land trusts, things that where collective ownership becomes an option, that too would lower costs and create a better experience for people. But you know, I don't pretend to have the answers on this. It's a very vexing problem which we're always going to be grappling with. Great. Thanks. And just one last reminder I want or another reminder I want to let viewers know that if they want to call in the number again is 802-862-3966. Ali, we'll move on to you next about the rising housing costs in the city. Thank you again, Shasha. And I mean, I think we all witnessed that both of my colleagues and also opponents, they both were elected at the same time. So if we still have an issue about housing, I think it's not only because of one person, but I think it was completely the city itself. And what we need to strive for is to bring those experts who are in this field together and to explore how do we increase the housing supplies in here in the city of Berlin and also have metrics that we could work on to achieve. Rent to all, I think is a concept that we need to explore here in the city. The dwelling units, I think that's one accomplishment that both the mayor and the council has already done. And also rent control, I kind of agree with Mark Strasse that yes, it is something that we need to strive for better. One thing that no one is talking about is why the major institutions such as UVM and Champlain College are not providing more. I think in our agreements as a next mayor, I will make sure that they will house most of the students that they bring in this great city. Thank you. And I think I agree with everyone that this issue has been here before all of us. No one was able to solve it. I think we need a different level of thinking to get it done. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. The next question we're going to go into, obviously, we have, it's been nearly a year since the COVID pandemic began. And I wanted to ask each candidate what they think the mayor's office should do to help the city's recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic. With this one, we'll start with you, Kevin. Thanks. It's going to be a long road back. I think that the mayor has done, the mayor has done a good job on the COVID-19, so has the government and Vermont in general. Burlington's definitely hurt. Like I say, we have housing issues, COVID-19 issues, and we have livability and neighborhood problems and issues. And people are really suffering. I'm a fortunate person. And I've been down the road with some of these people. And the city is going to have to do what it's going to have to do. And that's a good thing that we have seven different people here to talk about things like this. We need to really have more teamwork and work and agree to agree on things more often and work on the things that we can agree to agree on. And rebuilding the city, the whole city, city place project and all that. Only thing I'm going to say about that is you're just lucky you don't have a half-built building there right now. So in a way that worked out, the bad thing I think about that, about downtown Burlington was the loss of Macy's. That was a big draw. And I know that people who come to a place like Burlington, they like the physical tactile experience of shopping, not just sitting at home, you know, ordering from Amazon and your little cocoon and stuff. A lot of people like that. So in the future, I, you know, we really need to come up with maybe like a city place that's half as large and has the same type of paper stores like Macy's and things like that on the bottom here. Thanks. Thank you very much. Thanks. Can I just repeat the question, Sasha? I just, I couldn't, I broke up when you were Yeah, no problem. The question was what should the mayor's office do to help the city's recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic? Max, you're next up. Thanks so much. You know, I think a lesson that I hope we learned from the COVID pandemic is that the challenges that were existing before the pandemic have only been made worse and that they'll continue to be present in our community afterwards. So providing housing for those experiencing houselessness, food for people who are hungry and protection from renters or for renters who are experiencing unjust evictions shouldn't just be the flavor of the weak approach to city government, but we must really institutionalize these critical supports long after the pandemic is over. So my administration will provide direct support to commercial and residential tenants facing evictions. I also fully support the just cause charter change that's been put forward and that folks will be voting on for this town meeting day. I think it provides meaningful protections for tenants who follow the rules. I think we also need to do everything we can to leverage local, state and federal aid to directly expand and support ongoing mutual aid projects specifically focused on hunger relief. I've been to several food distribution events and found that often the need outstrips the supply and we need to do more as a city to really institutionalize an anti-hunger program in our city by really bringing that effort into CEDO. And then, you know, as mayor, I'll also partner with local and state officials to make sure that everyone is able to really easily access vaccines and that specifically distribution does not leave by the BIPOC communities that have been hardest hit by this pandemic behind. So this is the approach that I really want to make sure that we prioritize when moving forward and ensuring that, again, we're not leaving people behind in this moment or when we as we're coming out of the pandemic and going forward. We have a tremendous opportunity to recraft and rebuild our city in a more just image and I hope to do that as your next mayor. Thanks, Max. Let's go to you next, Murrow. Great. Thanks, Sasha. Again, critical issue. There's no doubt that this is going to be a key focus for the mayor for the for years to come. I think it's going to take a long time to get at this and I think this is one of the reasons people voters really should ask themselves is this a time to stick with proven leadership or to bring on someone who will be learning on the job? I see three major things that we need to do to lead our way out of this recession to recover from this pandemic. First of all, we have to focus on it. Just now, that was one of the first times, actually, throughout this campaign, I've heard councilor Tracy say anything about the recovery. I've made it very clear that right now, the focus top priority number one is ending the pandemic and as soon as we've done that, and I think we're going to get there sooner than some people think, I think we're months, just a matter of 12, 16 weeks away, hopefully, from when we can really start to shift our focus to leading the economic recovery, you got to be ready and prepared and experienced when that happens. That's point number two. My administration will be organizing itself now, reinventing itself now, just the way we did for the pandemic to be ready to secure the millions of dollars of federal money that is going to be coming down in the months ahead and then deploy it in the right ways. I think having the right relationships is going to matter. I'm excited, frankly, the news this week that Luke McGowan is leaving us on Monday to go to the White House. That will be a key relationship going forward. Third point is, as we are deploying that federal money, we got to look for ways to make permanent progress with it, just like we did with a new place and using federal emergency dollars to have a year-round low barrier shelter. There's going to be more opportunities like that in the months ahead. I'm going to be ready for it. Thank you. Max, I don't know. You have one more rebuttal. I know you were mentioned there. I don't know if you wanted to... Yeah, absolutely. That's just simply not true. If you listen to go to our social media channels and just look, we've been consistently trying to put out good information about vaccine access, about testing access with the help of some of the great mutual aid organizations like Icebird Consulting that's been doing really strong work and putting out strong graphics, making sure that we're getting good information out to the public and using this campaign as an opportunity to focus on a variety of issues, but also specifically to share good pandemic-related information with people who are also following what's happening with this mayoral election. It's just simply not true. I would appreciate if we can just really stick to the facts here. Great. Thank you very much. Let's go to the next hike. Very much. On this issue, I think Murrow has done a fantastic job and I want to thank him as a Burlingtonian. It's been very comforting knowing that he's been on it in the way that he has been. It's hard to conceive of doing it better from setting up the response center to just letting people know where testing can happen and organizing all of that. Now the vaccine stage, it's been a comfort and I think this is one of the reasons it's very hard for me to conceive of him losing this election. I don't see it happening, but I would just continue with those efforts. I would say one more thing too, and that this pandemic has damaged us psychologically, all of us, and great public arts, great public works of art like a kinetic sculpture or an indoor greenhouse could help heal our psychology going forward as well as inspire and create a tone for the city. That's my answer on that. Okay. Thanks, Hike. Let's go next to Ali. Thank you. Yes, I think it would be important before talking about this to Tank Governor Scott and also his team for those quality updates and also Tim Ash. I think he also has done an incredible job keeping people informed. I think what is missing, what the mayor could have done better and did not do even though we ask him over and over and over to look at this issue outside of Wellington City only and to try to bring Chitinden County or the surrounding communities together, because I think the great presentations that he's been doing would have been better if it was a little bit coordinated with Venuski, South Wellington because this virus does not discriminate against borders. It's everywhere. So I will create as an next mayor a position of public health emergency which never existed in the city of Wellington who will provide leadership and expertise to my team to ensure that we are able to beat COVID-19, the opiate crisis as well, and all the public health emergencies in the region. This crisis did not discriminate against people of color race, but we need science to continue to do the right and necessary work. During the pandemic, maybe many people do not know, but vulnerable communities did not have access to many of these informations, but I was there in the community building and making sure they get tested, making sure that we eradicate, you know, misinformation and so on and so forth. So I will continue to just do what I've been doing as an next mayor of the city of Wellington. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks a lot Ali. Will, let's go to you next on this one. Okay, so and all due respect Ali, I just wanted to make one point of information that I've read about. I don't have it in front of me because I'm not doing research at the moment, but you said COVID doesn't discriminate. I think there's some information out there that said there is actually quite a bit of disparity out there. My administration will immediately be appointing a liaison to assist community members in need. I know all the homeless, I grew up with the less fortunate in Wellington. I've experienced volunteering with at risk youth and coaching youth sports. We all make sure, we will make sure the city safe and sanitary and that businesses have guidance to stay open safely and continue to generate revenue. Many of my business friends are struggling, other ones actually have figured out how to cooperate with the pandemic. Although Wellington was going out of business way before the pandemic, I won't let that slide. While serving the citizens to prevent things such as food, deprivation and lack of exercise, I've been doing some research. I've just interviewed two amputees this week. And people are voicing that code inspections are saying we can't get out and do our jobs. We're remanding people their homes in ways I haven't seen since documentaries about World War II. And it's the and I'm going to the out of town hotels. And I'm interviewing an amputee in a wheelchair who's having a very hard time in a hotel where my mother just lost her second job under this mayor. And he's telling me that he is voicing concerns and he's not even allowed to have his caregiver stay with him. Now he also told me he had his leg amputated. I'm not sure I don't want to quote anybody here or use names, but my understanding is because of black mold. Now if code inspections isn't getting out to do their job and people are getting their leg amputated because the department of code inspections, which has been heavily complained about is not doing their job, that falls on leadership. And leadership as I'm a leader, I will step up and take care of that managerial experience that decision making process for you ladies and gentlemen of the city of Burlington, who I grew up with most of in the low income housing. I'm actually currently owner of a low income unit. And I wanted to say something about managerial size and experience AFL-CIO. That's 330,000 members America Postal Workers Union. If I make two phone calls, I got the America Postal Workers Union on the phone to have a convention at one of these nice hotels. And sir, before you cut me off, the hotels that these homeless are being shipped to in Burlington are being shipped to South Burlington. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Ali, I know you were mentioning. They can't access, they can't accommodate handicap. That's the second wheelchair amputee I interviewed yesterday. You'll see that soon. Don't worry about it. The president has seen it. So I'm not surprised that there's a Miro Weinberger person down in DC now, yesterday. Thank you. Ali, I know you were mentioned in the beginning of that. I don't know if you want to say anything or I'll let it go. Okay. All right. Thank you. Can I actually say something, Sasha? Yeah. Great. I just want to, you know, our Code Enforcement Office was just criticized there. And this isn't the first time there's been, there's been a lot of public criticism of the Code Enforcement Office lately. And it's just totally unjustified and unfair to the public, very committed public employees who are working in code enforcement. It's very unfair to the leader of that office, Bill Ward, who is one of our most outstanding city employees and has completely transformed an office that was once very dysfunctional and turned it into an office that does its job day in and day out to make sure that homes in this community are regularly inspected when we for years failed to do that, that is, who has increased standards and improved the way in which the system works dramatically so that we're focusing resources on problematic properties, not wasting them on properties that are doing fine through a whole change in the way the system is done. And it's just, it's really, I use, I say this now because it's really bothered me to see just some, you know, basically slanderous comments made about that group in recent weeks. And they are, they are, they are hardworking city employees that do a very important job and they should be complimented for the good job they're doing. All right. Thank you. So real quick, I just wanted to say I'm not knocking to code inspections. People, I know plenty of people that work around code inspections around the United States. What I'm saying is a leader would be on there, boots on the ground, out there with the citizen, somewhere this person has never been. I'm there all the time, believe me, I should know. Okay. Thank you, Will. Thank you, Moreau. And we're going to go now. I think we have something, someone on the phone that wanted to ask a question. So we're going to go there next. Okay. With increasing regular beach closures because of algae blooms, what is each candidate's vision for Burlington's role in lake cleanup and health? All right. Thank you very much, Coller. Lake cleanup and lake health. That question will go first to Max Tracy. Thank you for that crucial question is the lake is just the real crown jewel of Burlington and something that we really need to take care, take better care of. I think that I was a strong supporter of the water bond that passed a couple of years ago, really strongly promoting that bond. I've made sure to in the intervening time tour the wastewater facilities to understand exactly how that bond is being implemented. And I'll continue to follow up on work to update our aging infrastructure that concerns that that's directly related to wastewater, stormwater, and stormwater, trying to bring down the combined sewer overflows that we continue to see. I think we also need to make more and expanded efforts towards developing rain gardens at the neighborhood scale. This is a strategy that we've seen has actually brought the combined sewer overflow that happens in the old North End down significantly. So that's something that I think a strategy we need to push forward. I think the other piece around algae blooms that we need to be understand is that this is an area where this is an area and an issue that demands regional coordination. Burlington needs to take action for sure, but we also need to do more to have a statewide strategy really coordinating with surrounding communities to address phosphorus loading that is also a driver of those algae blooms that cause those really unfortunate and damaging algae blooms that really just destroy so much joy in our community on a regular basis and importantly also destroy our lake. Great. Thank you very much, Max. Let's go to you next, Mara. Thanks, Sasha. So the caller has a common misunderstanding about the history here. In fact, now in 2021, we have far fewer incidents and magnitude of lake pollution than we have historically and we've made very steady and significant progress on that over the last nine years because it has been a priority of this administration and we are better than we have ever been at this work and we are on the cusp of getting far better because we are in the middle of investing the historic wastewater and stormwater bond that I proposed and campaigned for and secured 92% of the voters approval for. We're actually this year is going to be the biggest single year of the deployment of those funds. We have something like $11 million in infrastructure investments taking place there in one form one stage of construction or another right right now and 2021 will be a year of great progress. Stormwater infrastructure has been just one piece of a larger focus of this administration on addressing our historic infrastructure challenges as an older community. Again, this is an area over the last nine years where we have turned around the trajectory of our streets, our sidewalks, our parks, and it's something I'm focused on. I'm committed to continuing. I think we need one more investment focus like that in the coming year and that's something I'll be excited to lead. Great. Thank you very much. Let's go to you next. Thank you very much. I'm a little surprised to hear Moro say that it's better now than it's ever been. It doesn't feel that way to me as a long-time resident. It feels like it's getting worse, not better, but maybe that's just perception. What seems apparent, though, is that we continue to have these spills where sewage goes into the lake. That needs to stop. I might even consider something like a moratorium on new housing until we can go an entire year without spilling into the lake. I know that's politically untenable and not a very practical idea, but in theory, if we cared enough about it, we might stop adding until we can take care of this problem. It's great that we passed the water bond. I support that more and more robust efforts. We just have a capacity problem. We have to make sure we have the capacity to handle our mess. I would do everything responsible in that regard to make sure that we continue to maintain and we upgrade and we look for alternative ways to deal with waste. I think there's alternative ways out there that we can explore. It's a tough problem. Great. Thank you very much. Again, we're on the topic of Lake Health. We'll go next to Ali. Thank you. Thank you for the call for asking this incredible and wonderful question. I think our lake is one of our greatest assets, actually. It attracts lots of activities in the city of Burlington. We need to do all we can in our power to make sure that it's a healthy and great lake and how we also preserve it for the future generations. It would be important for each voter in the city of Burlington to do research about what are these candidates talking about. Go to their website and I believe I am the only one in this way who is talking about the restructuring core governmental service department to tackle infrastructure upgrades. Under my administration and during my 100 day in office, I will start a feasibility study to consider combining both the electric department and also the public works water division to become one utility department. The feasibility study will include a cost saving mechanism under the merge, a joint utility billing system, and a plan to upgrade underground system, including wastewater, stormwater, and water lines, as well as to put electric utilities underground in major arteries in our city, such as North Avenue, Pine Street, Colchester Avenue, and more. What we need is a wise and innovative solution focused that will make sure that my administration will have a guided work in order to get the things done. A wise and innovative solution focused approach will be at the core of my administration and guide our work together. Thank you. Thanks Ali. Will go to you next on the issue of lake health and keeping the lake healthy. Okay. So I've heard a couple of things. I mean, first of all, recipes to Ruth Bader Ginsburg. She was a crown jewel referred to in her biography of Time Magazine, which was not the whole biography, but to refer to the lake as a crown jewel is a slap in the face. I call it Flint, Michigan. Listen, you want to call it a glitch, two million gallons, three million gallons, 100 million gallons being dumped. And listen, I could show you how to clean up a lake front managerial perspective wise. You take a dredger, you clean up the sand, you bring in some new sand so there's no rocks and sticks going in these little kids feet needles. You know, we're talking about drug anti-drug up here. Well, let's keep the needles out of kids feet because when you don't clean the sand with a raker and you don't bring business in where there's like drinks being served at the beach and you don't have security down there properly because it's not existing the whole process. When you can't swim in the lake, I was in Old Orchard Beach one day, beautiful just south of Portland, which is four times the size of Burlington. I get back to Burlington with my son and it's been it's been some time, buddy, but I'll tell you what. When we jump, when I walked into, I would never let my kids swim in that lake, but I walked down there myself and I waded into the lake after getting from Old Orchard Beach, beautiful water smells good just south of Portland, four times the size of Burlington that manages their water properly. And I smelled sewage all over my leg and I look over, I see little kids flopping in it. That's not management. And that's all I got to say about it. And it's intentional too as well. Not a mistake. Flint, Michigan. Okay, thanks Will, anyone? I don't know. That was kind of abroad. I don't know if anyone wanted to say anything to that, but I can keep moving on to Kevin. Yeah, I'm a person who has experience in um, stormwater, sewage and, and um, other and municipal sewage. And Burlington has been, has dropped the ball a long time ago. The repairs are making now they should have made 20 years ago. And it's definitely much like the housing system in Burlington, Vermont. It's substandard. And it's easily overwhelmed, it's antiquated, and they do need new solutions. And it should be one of the top priorities. And the main thing is, I think the main point is, is that this is work that should have been done 20 years ago. And now they're just starting to talk about it. And you know, I'll kind of disagree with Moreau on some of these issues. You know, I'm sorry, Burlington is not a better place. And that's why I'm calling for people. You know, I hear some good things from Max, I hear some good things from Ali and um, you know, water quality is a big issue. And Vermont in general has dropped the ball. So hopefully with the new Biden administration and the funding, we can address these issues. Thanks. Great. Thanks Kevin. So that's everyone on that question. We're going to go now. We asked, we mentioned ahead of time to each candidate that will be giving them the opportunity to question another candidate. So for question five, the first person to get to do that is Moreau. You can ask another candidate a question you'd like. A real quick point of information. Are we not going through all the questions on a questionnaire? Depending on time. Yeah. So this is, this is our next step. We're going to go, everyone's going to ask a question. So you have a little time to think of who you want to question. Moreau, we'll go to you for a question to another candidate. Great. Thanks, Sasha. My, my question is for Councillor Jang. We, one of the biggest issues we're facing right now, in fact, there's a big decision coming Monday on it is where are we headed with our, our police department. From my perspective, the council made, created a crisis last summer by voting to, over my objection, reduce the police department by 30, reduce, eliminate 30% of the officers. And I proposed a, I thought it was a terrible idea at the time. I was very clear about that. I proposed a compromise that would have ensured that we kept the cap of about 85 to 90 officers and Councillor Jang supported that at the time. And I appreciate it. But recently, I, I'm, I'm unclear where he stands. I proposed another compromise. Another compromise, which is the police continuity public safety continuity plan. And there's going to be a vote on it on Monday. And it's unclear whether Councillor Jang is going to, I want to know, are you going to support that plan on Monday, Councillor Jang? Thank you, Mayor, for the question. And I think it will be important to clarify that the city council did not start this problem. But I think they tried to solve the issue that you did not solve. I think the issue here is not the council, but it is the mayor who could have taken action when it was needed and hot and when no one was looking and you did not. Sorry. To this question, I think I also brought an amendment to the racial justice alliance, asking people to take the time and to study how many police officers do we actually need. And it was voted down, unfortunately. Right. I am going to always try for process. We do not know how many police officers we need. And until that study is done, right, I would not be voting to add more police officers because I did ask also the council to put this question to the ballot whether or not we need to have 84 police officers. It was also voted down. Pragmatism process is what I would be striving for. I can't wait to see the study that will tell us how many police officers we need and then I will vote in support of that. Great. Thank you, Ali. I don't know, Murrow, did you want to rebuttal on that or are you good? I mean, Sasha, we're still thinking we just get two rebuttals, right? I'll take a pass. Okay. All right. Thanks. Hyde will go to you next if you want to ask another candidate a question. Thanks. Okay. Boy, I've got a really good question for Max and I've got a really good question for Murrow and I guess I have to choose. So it would be more fun for me to ask the Max question but I think it's more important to ask the Murrow question. Murrow, can you explain your perspective on what happened with your writing to the medical examiner, the state medical examiner to try to get the report about the homicide involving Cory Campbell delayed? I think that's what I read. Can you explain what happened there? Because to me, I mean, my perspective is that sounded a little bit unethical but maybe it was reported wrong and maybe I'm misunderstanding it. So can you explain that? Yeah, Hyde. Thank you and thanks. It's good to see you. Thank you for participating tonight and I do encourage you to check out the city's webpage about wastewater because I think you find it interesting. The history is very different than what you described. With this issue, what Chief Del Pozo and I did in that moment was to follow the chain of command. We had a real concern about the report that was about to be issued from a heads up we had been given by the medical examiner. We thought he got his report wrong then and I still think he got the report wrong. Forgive me but you're not a doctor? No. Well, it's not only me that thought he got it wrong. We've talked to many medical examiners and listen, just because someone is an expert doesn't mean they should be beyond reproach. They should be on questioning. I think that's very dangerous thinking. Nothing else in our system works that way. But do you know how that appears? Can I finish the question? As a layperson, I challenge anyone to read that report even today and understand how the medical examiner can on the one hand say that he doesn't know what the cause of death was and on the other hand say that it was a homicide. Those two things just don't make any sense to lay people. They don't make any sense to experts in this field and we were asking through the chain of command for clarification on that and I think that was the right way to do it. So clarification but not a delay in the release of the report? We wanted the report to be right and we were asking the supervisors of that individual to try to get it right and I think that was the right way to handle it. The city attorney has said it was the right way to handle it and I stand by that. Okay, I disagree. I think that answer is disappointing but thank you very much. Can I actually follow up Dan Morrill? I wondered that happened before the video of that altercation came out and I wondered if your perception of how the incident went down. I wonder if that changed your feelings on that at all once you saw the video? No, Sasha. I had seen the video by that point. I think what happened, listen, what happened with Mr. Kilburn and Mr. Kilburn's death was a tragedy and my heart went out to the Kilburn family then and it goes out to them today. At the same time, I think further, what was at stake then is whether a police officer was going to be called out as contributing to it as it being, you know, having killed him. There's a very high standard that is supposed to be met before such a charge is leveled at someone and I don't believe that charge was met and I think when you watch the video and you understand the history that after the interaction Mr. Kilburn was treated at the hospital for overnight. He was released after the hospital had confirmed that the injuries he suffered in that incident were stabilized and that no evidence to the contrary has come out since. I think we got it right at the time. Okay. Thank you very much and we'll go next to Ali. You can ask another candidate a question. Maybe yes, a question for Miro and I was just wondering if it was in front of you today, the racial justice resolution, would you veto it or have you regretted not vetoing it in June? So Ali, the racial justice resolution was a very long resolution coming at a key moment in our community evolution. May I rewrite my question then? I'm going to answer your question, Councillor Jang. I mean, I think it's a yes or a no. I don't like like you going all the way to Winiski and coming back. Councillor Jang, no, I made the right decision at the time. I believe not vetoing it. That was a resolution that included many issues in it that were important steps forward for this community and it passed with a veto-proof majority making it somewhat an academic issue, whether or not I would consider that and that's why I crafted the one thing that gave me major concerns. I crafted a compromise that would have avoided this crisis and I think that was the key vote. It was the vote in the budget about whether or not we would keep a floor of 85 and 90 officers and that over my objections was stripped out of the budget on a seven to five vote, essentially a party line vote. We have a second opportunity now for the council to fix the crisis that the council created and ensure that Burlington will continue to be able to respond to all the calls that we get from Burlingtonians. Basically, do the public safety work that Burlingtonians expect, provide 24-hour public safety services because of the council action last summer. That is now we're on a trajectory where we're not going to be able to continue that. I am calling on both of the councillors in this race. Councillor Jang, you and President Tracy, you have a chance to fix this crisis that the council has created on Monday. I hope you'll do it. I think it would be good for us to know tonight whether you're going to take action to fix the public safety crisis you've created or not. Do you want to remind me? I think it is important to not share elements that are not very factual and also very true. One, Miro, I'm sorry, but you did not present another plan after the racial justice resolution. You did not. There was no communication, there was no memo, but you just embedded a language within the budget resolution thinking that people will not catch it. And the council did catch it and then we voted on it and I voted in support. I voted in support and I also always voted in support for the council to take the right route basically process pragmatism always about the police issue. It is important for us to be factual and around what we're saying and not provide half-baked truth because we are on a debate. Thanks. Thank you, Holly. Can I respond to that? Councillor Jang, I believe it's you that had your facts wrong here. Go back and look at the speeches that I gave the night of the vote. I had had private conversations with councillors asking them to support the budget resolution. I gave two speeches the night of the vote making it clear that I saw there being major ramifications if the council took this provision out of the budget resolution. And it's all there in video. Everyone can go and look at it. I was very clear that I was concerned about what the council was doing. So was my police chief. It couldn't have been clear. I'll let it go. You're up if you want to ask another candidate a question. Yeah. I want to make a quick note real quick just based on some of the stuff I've heard in the last five minutes. I've heard Del Pozo's name, I've heard Clevelle's name, I've heard Trump's name in the past pluses, minuses, we love them, we hate them, we love Clevelle, we hate them, which you don't know about me, sir. Well, just a question please. I got you. I got you. Please. So, okay. Now, I want to note in this question what the intention is. The mall project. Now I got inside information about this, about the steel, that kind of thing, the public city stunts and jacking up of the rent of the tenants to push them out. And Macy's not cutting them any tax breaks. I would like to know for any city councillor, my mother's lost two jobs now. First she lost the job at Macy's, then she lost the job and part of her retirement and some people lost all of their retirements and that's workers' wages, hours and working conditions. Now in South Burlington, she's at Henry's pub. She just got pushed out of there at Larkin Terrace, Larkin, Larkin Properties. I would like to know, did anybody on the city council propose any type of tax break, any type of tax bill, any type of incentive for Macy's to stay? And I would note ahead of answering that question, Macy's was not doing terrible at that point in time. There was plenty of people coming down to Montreal. That was part of our tax base that we lost when they left. Anybody present a tax bill, a tax break, any type of incentive for Macy's to stay? Okay. Max, do you want to answer that? It's kind of an interesting question. I didn't put together a tax break bill for a large multinational corporation. I don't think that we should be bailing out large corporations and trying to give them tax breaks. I think we need to be supporting small businesses and specifically across our community to make sure that they're able to thrive. Sir, can I robot that? Sure. Yeah. I've been in Bernie's office for many years as a progressive, leaning person back in the day. Now I'm just independent. I have values. And in Bernie's office, I did a lot for veterans, things of that nature, election tampering. When we're talking about capitalism and bailouts, that's not a bailout. I said tax break. I didn't say bailout. When you cut off their artery, you put their customers outside in the snow while you're blowing up city place, making money off the copper, you're putting their customers outside on a makeshift pothole ridden sidewalk. And now they got an exit and zero degree weather while it's snowing outside and that pothole ridden sidewalk was not plowed properly. I've been around here a long time and a lot of employees in Burlington tax base stats lost their jobs in that situation. Thank you. Thanks, Will. I don't know, does it, Ali, did you want to, I know, sort of to the council? Do you want to say anything? Yeah. I mean, I think Max Tracy answered it beautifully. And just to add that, it seemed as if that Macy's, it was not the only store in Burlington or in Vermont, but they were closing all around the nation, a couple of their stores. I think it's important to add that into the mix. Rebottle, sir. Rebottle, second rebuttal. I think the second rebuttal, yeah. Okay, so I used to deliver papers in Lakewood estates. I also lived, I used to flip burgers at Wendy's in Lakewood, New Jersey. Now Lakewood's an interesting place. The mayor owns the entire city council police department. It's all corrupt. You got racial profile, you got whatever down there. It's a bad place. And rebuttal wise, I mean, I listen, workers, people, a lot of people lost their jobs when Burlington started going downhill and Macy's was targeted so that they could move the police station in there. And my buddy, it's so funny because he went back to Yonkers fire department after he lost his job in the Burlington fire department, didn't get promoted. Must have been something about him. I don't know. Went back to Yonkers. In any case, before you cut me off, sir, I would just like to note the citizens of Burlington, Burlington high school is a beautiful place. I went there before I went to freehold regional high school district. And gotta keep moving. I just want to know you know, I know, but just let me finish, sir. I just find it interesting. Are we throwing more rentals up in Burlington high school? That's a beautiful building. Why are we moving it over to Macy's? Was that pre-planned? Okay. All right. All citizens feel about that. Thanks. Kevin, let's go to you next. You can ask someone else another candidate a question. Sure. My question is for counselor Tracy. Would you be willing to support a legislative ban by the state of Vermont on the use of out of state prison for profit prisons for housing? I'm sorry. I couldn't hear the end of the question. Could you please repeat it? Sure. Would you support a legislative ban on the use of out of state prisons and for profit prisons to house inmates from Vermont? Absolutely. No question. I think that that's a practice that has led to real issues. I mean, we've seen significant, significant violations of I would say even human rights in the context of these for profit out of state prisons. So I support ending the practice of for profit prisons just in general. I think the more profits associated with incarceration, the more prisoners you'll have. It's just that simple. We need to end mass incarceration as part of a broader program of uprooting and dismantling systemic racism because that type of system has disproportionately impacted people of color and specifically black men in our country. So I think we need to dismantle that system. And Vermont can be part of leading the way in that effort. Thank you. I agree with you. Sir, could I rebut that? Do I have one rebuttal left? No, no, that's it. Well, I'm sorry. All right. Really not one. I thought I only used one. You've had at least two. So I think we're going to move on. Thank you. Max, you are the last one to ask another candidate a question. Sure. So I'd like to ask a question of the mayor. One of the main one of the big things that's happened in this last term has been the social media scandals at Burlington Police Department. And this the mayor was shown the fake social media account prior to its use. It was then used and a seven days reporter was actually lied to. And that record wasn't corrected until months later. We've only several months after that found out that the mayor did in fact know about this account before it was created. So, Mr. Mayor, do you regret your actions and the way you handled that? And do you take full responsibility for the damage that was done? Thank you, Councillor Tracy. So listen, I think I've answered that question many times. There's been an enormous discussion of the incidents. And I've made it clear that I think was a very challenging situation that I worked hard to get everything I could write through it. I was trying to do right by a city employee. I was trying to do right by the people of Burlington. I have apologized to the individual who was impacted by the former chief's tweets. And I've acknowledged that if I had it all to do again with 2020 hindsight, I would do some things different. I would say that when I'm out campaigning right now, Councillor Tracy, what people are focused on with respect to the police is not this incident from quite a ways back now. They are focused on the current crisis in policing that you have created through your actions, through your I think terrible judgment to vote unlike any other city in the country to defund 30% of the department, abolish 30% of the police department without a plan in place for how we would continue to provide public safety services. I'd like to know from you what I asked, Councillor Jang, on Monday you have a chance to fix this mistake. Will you take responsibility for that mistake? And will you act on Monday to fix it? Max, you want to rebut? Well, I think that it's pretty clear that we need one of the big issues that remains as yet unresolved in response to these crises is the real need for community oversight and independent oversight with disciplinary authority. That was something that you vetoed much to the dismay of racial justice advocates in the community and the broader community just in general. I'll also say that specifically with this issue of the quote unquote crisis that you're claiming, I think we need to lean into efforts to transform our police, our public safety system. Again, as I've said before, building out armed or unarmed roles to make sure that we're doing everything we can to address those direct social needs within our community. That's the strategy that I want to employ to create capacity within our department. Councillor Tracy, that's part of the plan I have in front of you. It does exactly that. It creates new community service officers. It creates new community service liaisons. Again, I didn't hear an answer in that. Are you going to acknowledge that you made a mistake last summer and take steps to fix it? And the reason I had to veto the oversight board is because it would have made this crisis even worse. And it had to be vetoed because we are getting close to the point where we are not going to be able to ensure that people are growing and we can keep them safe. Are you ready to act to fix the crisis you created or not? I think we're working through that. We're going to continue to work on that. I do continue to support the building out of those roles. I do like that element of the plan. I don't like the effort to increase the cap on officers. I think we need to try out building out additional unsworn, unarmed officer roles to deal with that, to create capacity and to deal with those issues. I think that that's the strategy that we have not pursued in this time and that bears pursuing in order to see if we're able to bring that forward in a successful way to address these complex social needs within our community. Councillor Tracy, mayors need to act. Mayors need to be decisive. Mayors need to do things. This proposal has been in front of you since December. We presented it to you in detail in December and you still can't tell us an answer as to whether you're going to support it on Monday night. It's unbelievable. Max, do you want to say anything else and then we can move on? Like I said, I've provided an answer. I don't support the increase in the officer caps. I do support the other elements. We may be bringing some amendments to bring that resolution more in line with that vision. Great. I think that's a fair answer. I think that we have different visions for public safety. I think that we need to uproot systemic racism by transforming public safety and making sure that we're bringing renewed accountability. That's my vision for how we achieve a more just and specifically racially just public safety system here in Burlington. Great. Thank you both. I think we're getting close on time here, but I do think we have another call in and we want to bring that person in with the question. You're on the air. Oh, yeah. Hi. So Burlington residents, they're increasingly frustrated about the pit downtown, aka the City Hall Place project, how it's being handled, how the contract has been mismanaged, and a general lack of communication or communication that's been poured around the construction to residents in the mayoral position. What would you do to have done or what did you do have done to differently manage the project? And how would you proceed to resolve the issue? And then, Mira, how would you have done anything differently if you could turn back time and redo it? Thanks. Okay. So we have a City Place question. Let's go first. We're back to the top here. Haik, let's start with you. Thanks very much. I did not support the City Place project as it was proposed. I thought it was simply too big for the city and didn't fit in with the character of the city. I was very concerned that if those buildings were built, I would never get a table at Henry's again. So part of me is relieved. That said, something's got to go there. I'm not concerned that we're never going to fill that space. Apparently, there was a new deal made today and I'm sure Mira would like to talk about that. But whether it's we leave it open for green space or just connect the streets or build housing or other projects there, that land is going to be valuable. You know, somebody is going to want it. So I don't think we need to rush. I didn't think that the selling points for the original project were correct because they seem to be like, we've got to do this deal or we'll never get a chance like this again. And I just didn't agree with that. That land is valuable. It's prime and we can be a little bit pickier in our negotiations. But we'll see what happens there. Thanks, Haik. Ali, let's go to you next. Yes. Yeah, I think the question is, what would I do differently? I think what I'm saying is this project is needed in this community and we need to strive for making sure that it is built and then from there, what is the future of downtown should look like? Haik, I have always been a strong supporter of this project and would want to see it true. I was also against the city's approach in taking the legal route bringing these developers. This development is important to the city of Burlington again. It brings jobs. It brings housing. It brings all the amenities that the city definitely need and not to even mention the tax base that we definitely need. Let me just leave it to that and I think we have now a new plan and let's see what's going to be true. One element though that I've been talking to the developers and those before them and the current new developers, do they definitely have the financing in place? I think that's a question we need to ask before we move forward in one more step forward. Thank you. Thanks, Ali. Let's go next to Will on City Place. So yes, City Place, sir. Interesting question. I had never jacked up the rents on the people in the mall at the first place. A lot of business owners were mad about that because they couldn't make money so they had to leave because the reports show that they were doing bad because they couldn't afford to stay. I would have never targeted Macy's. I would have never driven their Burlington Citizen employees to other jobs making less money when they had earned retirements at Macy's and Fileen's basement if you've been around him long enough. The mayor answers to the Will the People caller and thank you for the question. The Will the Body is voicing in every city council meeting things like we're not being respected or codes aren't being followed. Then you find out somebody's amputated. Now I'm sure he's offended. I don't know about offending the people at the Code Enforcement Office because if I find out about a kid dying, I'm going to be offended with the person that let him die. So as far as City Place, citizens need to get together. That place ain't getting built the way they want it to be built in a boat. They want it to be a boutique city, sir. I believe you ran against that on your last platform. Okay, Citizens of Burlington, wake up. City Place is yours. You own this city. You own Memorial Auditorium. We will bring that back. Kids stay off drugs when they do golden gloves. And I grew up in Burlington. Crackin' heroin was all over the place. And I could show you about a white heroin cover-up as well. It's in my court paperwork with lawsuit filed against me for something that wasn't even related to me. Well, thank you very much. Let's go next to you, Kevin. Yes. In general, the initial project was just poorly planned. And I think the Citizens of Burlington, to some extent, are lucky that it didn't go as planned. It was way out of scale. The numbers didn't add up. I know people who would have had to park in downtown, they weren't happy about that, having their jobs removed. The inclusion of the University of Vermont healthcare system that to me wasn't appropriate in the TIF district thing. It was to me, it was a sketchy project from the beginning. It was way out of scale. They didn't do the right thing in the way that they were able. Macy's, they could have kept Macy's downtown in some manner. But that was a big draw. You have to understand for merchants, people that I know personally. But from this point on, I would support something that's basically about half the size of the original project, retail, mixed-use apartments. And hopefully, we can come to some type on what's worth. But the initial project, in my opinion, was just, it just didn't pass the test. And fortunately, they did get built. Like I say, you might have had a half-built hotel because my hometown had a half-built hotel for 25 years. And those things happen. But hopefully, in the next year or two, something will happen. Thanks. Hey, where's your hometown, Kev, just out of curiosity? I said, where's your hometown just out of curiosity? Greenfield, Ohio. So they had like an eight-story hotel, half-built, and it stood there for 25 years. It was speculative. Sounds like Niagara Falls. Well, no, that's a lot. That's another issue. Niagara Falls. Sounds like Baltimore. Very, very, very poor. Thanks, guys. Yeah, let's keep, sorry, let's just keep moving here. We're running out of time, and I want to get everyone involved. Max, if you can answer the question about City Place. Yeah, absolutely. I was one of the only counselors to consistently oppose the initial project because I felt that it was out of scale with Burlington and that it didn't provide enough benefits to a broad spectrum of the community, meaning that people across the economic and social spectrum would be able to actually participate and enjoy the development. I was afraid that it was going to be something that was out of scale and out of reach for first too many Burlingtonians. So I posed it. And I was right about that. The design, the initial design is proposed, obviously, is a failure. We need to call it that. And I think that at this point that we should have filed, taken legal action much sooner than we did. I think there is some reason to believe that there's some positives coming out of the potential agreement, making sure that we have accountability around the streets piece. I think it's unfortunate that we're not going to be able to do all the streets that were initially promised. And I think that there's still real work to do to make sure that this is a union built project that has apprenticeships and specifically opportunities for people of color to participate in those apprenticeships. I think we also need to do more work to make sure that this project has more affordable housing proposed, adding as little as 5% more additional affordable housing to the project. And that was something that was shot down by the council. I think we can do better. So I think we need to continue to do that. And I think, again, we cannot continue to give the developer all of the leeway and time when it comes to this. If they're not meeting the deadlines and milestones that they agree to, we need to take them back to court. Great. Thanks. And just to be clear, Max, you're supportive of this getting built, but under certain conditions with these new conditions. Yeah, I think that we need to, I think that the scale down project is positive. I appreciate that they've taken that step. It's a little bit frustrating that many of us were saying that we felt that it was out of scale and that it was not economically feasible and that that wasn't listened to at the time. And now we're years down the line, seeing a project similar to what people were saying that they wanted to see or at least more similar to what people were saying in terms of size at least. And that project, I just wonder if we had listened to that community feedback where we would be right now. I think that we need to really take this as an important lesson for our community going forward, especially when it comes to these large development projects. Great. Thank you very much. And now to you, Morrell. Thanks, Sasha. So, you know, we've just heard from Councillor Tracy that he was against City Place. I hope we heard, I'm not quite clear whether he now will be forward. I hope he will be. I won't be surprised if he's opposed to it, however, because he's against a lot of things. He is against funding basic capital improvements at the airport. He was against rebuilding City Hall Park. He, as we just heard today, is against properly funding public safety. I have always been for this project because it's what the people want. It's what people voted for. It's what people said in the planning process back in 2011, 2012 with Plan BTV that they wanted. This has always been an administration that goes right at our biggest challenges. And this was a huge challenge. There has been the hole in the downtown, as people refer to it, is just visible now. There's been a hole there since the 1960s. We have had a major problem in this part of our downtown since the city tore down a vibrant neighborhood back in the 60s. I've been working to fix that, to address that, to get back the new streets, to get homes and jobs and retail and new revenues for the city. And we've made great progress towards that goal. The fact that that failing, totally wrong suburban mall building is gone entirely at the developer's expense is progress. It is good that that is there. And it gives us the opportunity to transform our downtown and make progress. The announcement we had earlier today is the next step in that. It is something I've worked very hard for. I urge the council to approve it when it comes to them on February 16th. To be against this is to be for continuing this period of lack of activity there. I hope people will be for it. I'll say this final thing. I, too, am frustrated this has taken longer than we hoped back in 2017. Sometimes doing big, important things take longer than you want. What I pledge to voters, if they give me the chance to continue to lead this great city and lead this project, is that we will bring the same type of persistence, focus and experience on building things that we have brought to so many other major projects over the last nine years. We're going to bring the same set of skills and experiences that we've brought to finishing City Hall Park, the northern waterfront, the bike path and building over 1300 homes. We're going to get this done if you give me the chance. Thank you. Max, I don't know. I mean, I know you were sort of mentioned there. I don't know. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I just think that when this current mayor has been taking us in the wrong direction, I've been there to call it up, to call it out and offer a different path. I'm for holding large out-of-state developers accountable to the promises that they made and want to make sure that, and I'm for development that is inclusive of all Burlingtonians. I'm for addressing the climate impacts that address that our airport has in respect to a broader effort to really take serious climate action. I'm for addressing systemic racism by transforming our public safety system and not trying to tap out of those efforts, but leaning into those efforts. Great. Thank you very much. Guys, this has been a really good conversation. I'd love to keep it going, but we're running out of time here, so I want to give everyone just about 30 seconds to sort of give really brief, you know, if you want to plug a website or whatever, let's just try to keep it brief so we can wrap it up. TownMeetingTV has been a really great host and I don't want to go beyond their time, so let's start with those. Ali, I think you're first up on the closing statements. 30 seconds, please. Thank you. I mean, I think the voters of Burlington just today received a debate. They know exactly what is going on between these parties, politics, and their leaders. This is just unacceptable. Burlingtonians are tired and people are ready for the change, and I believe that Burlington deserve a leader who's not entrenched in partisan politics and who's in touch with the people and who will be working very hard to what the people need. A leader who's willing to do the hard and necessary work to bring our city forward. Burlingtonians wants a government that can be trusted to do the right things no matter what. I am seeking your vote. AliJeng.com is my website. Please check me out and give me your vote on TownMeetingTV and vote early. Thank you. Great. Thank you, Ali. Will, let's go to you next. 30 seconds, please. Citizens of Burlington, I mean, my preliminary investigation on the city of Burlington is complete. They brought racial profiling in on purpose, read guided by race or ethical guides of profiling crap toilet paper, call and tell pro patrolling of Muslim families on my basketball team. When I wrote about that to my senator, suddenly my family was being looked at. My mom's lost two jobs over this guy. I got seven lawsuits. I litigate myself. The judge doesn't even try to question my mental health anymore. Not even a question. Impossible. When it comes to porno hacking, I just noticed the last week that one of the people knew how who did it faster than a federal agent. Think about that, ladies and gentlemen. Another candidate said we should go back to the 60s when we were thriving in 2011. Those are engineered comments based on race ethically. And another one was concerned with stats. And I got a plan for Burlington, sir, before you caught me off. It's going to bring back business. It's going to bring back the beach. It's going to bring back the citizens. And the citizens will own the city unlike what it is right now, rented out to the lowest, the highest bidder at the lowest possible rate every citizen is being sold out. Thanks. Thank you very much. Kevin, let's go to you next, please. 30 seconds. Thanks. Okay. One of the most important things that I'd like to propose at the end here is to get people to support some type of charter, governmental charter change that changes the endemic and systemic problems that the community faces. And what I would like to see proposed is a mayor council forum with full-time, seven full-time council members, which one council member would be council president and six would be district council members and work to create a different system of merit so that we can solve these problems as teams and internally without all this divisive debate that we seem to have anymore in our country. And that's my last pitch there. Great. Thank you, Josh. A quick point of information. I also just wanted to say that I would want to note that Ali and me are both independents and I'm being told I'm not going to be featured in articles, but I also wanted to say the only person who knew my email address and started an Instagram account, that name was City Hall. Thank you. We'll watch out for that. I already had that email address. I think before we knew about it, City Hall had it and started an Instagram page. Max, let's go to you next, please. Thanks. 30 seconds. Well, thanks again for hosting this debate. I think it's pretty clear that we deserve better than the status quo. And as mayor, I'll end the trend of so many people being priced out of Burlington. I'll also work to transform public safety to create a system that works for all of us and build economic resilience that will help us to weather this storm and those to come. Masking for your vote for mayor because the change we need to uplift all can't wait. More of the same is not getting us where we need to be and in fact is leaving many behind. I'm nearly a decade of tested leadership as city councilor and now as council president and I've got that experience to inform a bold vision as well as action in this time of crisis. I hope you'll consider me and look at my website Max for Mayor BTB for more information about my vision for our city. Thank you so much and I hope you'll vote for me on or before town meeting day. Great. Thank you, Max. Let's go to you next, Morrell. 30 seconds, please. Next session. This election is upon us. We're going to be sending out 20,000 approximately ballots next week. Look for yours in the mail and I hope everyone will vote. I think it's pretty clear and has been for a while what the job of the city government is going to be for the next three years. It's going to be focused on finishing, ending this pandemic, leading the recovery, making sure we don't miss this opportunity to make progress on racial injustice and addressing the climate emergency. I am ready and focused on those challenges. I ask for your support and I commit to you the same kind of relentless commitment to addressing those challenges going forward as I brought to you over the last nine years. Go to morrow4mayor.com if you want to get involved. Thanks. Thank you very much, Morrell. Last but not least, Haik, we'll go to you. Thanks very much again to channel 17 and to Seven Days for hosting this event and for inviting me. I don't have a campaign website, but I do have a blog that I've run for the last 14 years. You can read about me at burlingtonpaul.com. That's burlingtonpol.com, all together. I grew up here in the 80s and 90s and there was a certain spirit of Burlington that it's hard to describe, but Church Street was a novelty. We had new art projects. The Ethan Allen Tower was renovated and reopened. We had the only socialist mayor in America and there was a spirit here of sort of friendliness and quirkiness where anything was possible. It's all well and good to balance the budget and replace the water mains, but what I would hope we can do as a city together is renew the sense of creativity, imagination, and inspiration that kind of makes us who we are and gives us our vibe and do things that make us just friendlier and create great works of public art that will inspire the imagination and make Burlington great for generations to come. I also just want to say this, there's seven candidates in this race and not one of them is a woman and I think that's very unfortunate and very lucky for Murrow because a strong woman candidate like Keisha Rahm or Selena Colburn could easily walk away with this thing, with the boat split this many ways between them, but thanks again for seven days and channel 17 and thanks. I got my camera going. That's the fourth time you've said nobody else. Well, okay, thanks guys. I want to thank all the candidates for coming out. Really nice to have a good spirited discussion. I want to thank Town Meeting TV. Seven days we'll continue to cover this race and other races around the area. Keep reading to read about those and keep watching Town Meeting TV for other forums on ballot items. Don't forget all ballots in Burlington will be mailed out this year to active registered voters so you can vote on or before March 2nd. Please do that. Participate in democracy. It's important. Thanks for watching. Thank you.