 National Archives flagship building in Washington, D.C., which sits on the ancestral lands of the N'Koch Tank peoples. I'm David Ferriero, Archivist of the United States, and it's my pleasure to welcome you to today's conversation between Chuck Robb and Michael Beschloss about Senator Robb's new memoir in the arena. Before we begin, I'd like to tell you about two upcoming programs you can view on our YouTube channel. On Thursday, May 27th, at noon, Jim Downey will tell us about his new book, Brainstorms and Mindfarts, a look at the brightest and most innovative American inventions along with frivolous and utterly useless ones. And on Wednesday, June 2nd at 7 p.m., Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Annette Gordon-Reed presents her latest book on Juneteenth. She will recount the origins of Juneteenth and its integral importance to American history. This program is presented in partnership with James Madison's Montpelier. In part one of his new memoir, Senator Chuck Robb writes that in becoming a Marine, I found an identity and an ethos that would remain at my core for the rest of my life. The challenges and lessons of the Marine Corps shaped a life of service both in the military and as an elected official. His long career has intersected with many moments of history represented in the National Archives and in presidential libraries, from marrying Linda, daughter of President Lyndon Johnson, to commanding Marines in Vietnam and a civilian service to Virginia and the nation as Governor and U.S. Senator. As Senator Robb writes, I have lived a life of incredible events and interesting stories. I look forward to hearing some of those stories tonight in our conversation with Chuck Robb and Michael Beschloss. In 1961, Chuck Robb was commissioned as an officer in the United States Marine Corps. It was while on assignment as a White House military social aide that he met and married Linda Johnson, the daughter of President Lyndon Johnson. Soon after their wedding, Robb deployed to Vietnam as a company commander. After earning a law degree and practicing as an attorney, Robb was elected Virginia's Lieutenant Governor in 1978 and Governor four years later. In 1988, he ran for a seat in the U.S. Senate where he served for two terms. Since leaving the Senate, Robb served as co-chairman of the WMD Commission and as a member of the Iraq Study Group. He has also had roles at the Kennedy School at Harvard University, the Marshall White School of Law at William & Mary, George Mason University, and the U.S. Naval Academy among many others. Being Senator Robb in conversation tonight is Michael Beschloss, an award-winning historian, bestselling author, and Emmy winner. His newest book is Presidents of War, which tells the story of the American presidents who have waged our major wars. He's on the board of the directors of the National Archives Foundation, a trustee of the White House Historical Association, and former trustee of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation. Now let's hear from Chuck Robb and Michael Beschloss. Thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you so much to David Ferriero for that very nice introduction, and thank you to Governor and Senator Robb for joining us to talk about this wonderful book in the arena, A Memoir of Love, War, and Politics. And we were just talking a little bit off-camera about the fact that I've now read the book twice, loved it. I think everyone should buy 10 copies and read it 10 times. But one of the best things... From my publisher, thank you. I'm glad to say you're welcome to the publisher, but I feel as if I'm doing a favor to the reader. And one of the best things about it is, as I was saying to Chuck Off-Air, it sounds just like him. It really has his voice, which in the case of many memoirs is not true. And so it's one of the things I love about it. And I guess maybe I can begin by asking, I run into you from time to time. And for years, we talked about this and you've been working on it. And I've tried not to nag you too much, but it's finally done and it's out and it's thunderously here. How did you get the original idea to write the book? Well, it's all started, I guess. I recognized that I was mortal and that I wasn't going to live forever. And I remember when that my own parents died that I couldn't call back and find out what was I doing at this particular age. And I couldn't query them any more about their parents and those that preceded them, their forbearers. And so having a record that our children and our grandchildren and ultimately their issue could look to and find out things that have a factual basis. I just find if you don't have somebody you can come back to that you're a little uncertain as to how accurate what you're passing on isn't just family lore and it's any of that. I wanted to put it down on paper before I got the call from Saint Peter. Wonderful. And so glad you did. And one of the things I had been a little bit aware of but not as much as I am now having read the book twice is how much your family really goes back to the early days of this country. Yes. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I had heard from my mother and father at a younger age about their forbearers but I could always rely if I didn't have it absolutely pinned down in my brain as to who was at war with whom at that particular time or within the family or whatever else. And there are some interesting pieces of my forbearers. I didn't just come into a complete void. I was very lucky to be born in the United States and have all of the privileges that have accrued all of us who didn't have to fight for those privileges. And I wanted to make sure that I knew how those from whom I descended were in any way involved in some of those activities. Not every single item is necessarily included in detail in the book. And matter of fact, Alice, who's been helping me for the last four or five years trying to, excuse me, finish it up, excuse me. We cut out a lot of things that I thought were important little stories but I wanted to have just enough there that it was served as a reference. This is not designed to be a textbook. It's designed to be a read for someone that is curious about people that they might have seen their name somewhere along the line and just were curious about what their life was all about. And that's all I'm trying to do here. I'm not trying to sell a program. I don't ever plan to run for any kind of political office again. And it's, in any event, it's not beyond that. It's a historical document for the family to use. Well, the family and also a lot of people who are interested in you and the historic times that you've lived through and helped to shape. For those who haven't read the book yet, tell a little bit about where you came from and where you grew up. OK, I was actually born in Arizona, in Phoenix, Arizona. In 1939, and I lived in Arizona in different parts of Arizona until I've forgotten the year now. But at some point, my parents moved to Ohio for a couple of about three years. If I got that correctly, he had gone and he started out. My father was an airplane pilot after he finished prep school, in his case. Both of my parents had a much father went to Chote, didn't he? He went to Chote. Yeah, that's right. And his parents always expected him to go on to college. My father instead went to an aeronautical aviation school in New Mexico and got his commercial pilot's license and and then eventually got into the the administration side. But in between, he took a little time out to go into the dude ranching business in Arizona down in Patagonia and Sonoyta, where anybody happens to be from that area would know where they are. The they neither of them are terribly big cities. Sonoyta is a blank and you miss it type. And in that particular situation, the teacher, a one room schoolhouse to taught, I guess, sixth grades, I think they were at that point. And her father or her husband own the only gas station in town. So it was very rural. And I I had not really been exposed to the big city, if you will, until my parents moved to Washington area and settled down in Alexandria at that particular point. But and one thing that comes through in the book is that thanks to their Washington experience, I think many, many people who did not know as much about you would have thought that your life changed when you came to Washington and you went to the White House as a Marine aid, but your parents had known a lot of the great and famous as you were growing up, right? Now, they had been exposed to a number of people. I won't go into that all background. That may not be of particular interest, but the whatever might be of interest, I think is included. Those those relatives from whom you would like to be identified and maybe some others that it's more awkward. And I was every every family has both. That's right. Somebody last night was telling me that and I've known them for a long time in the Virginia General Assembly. And he was telling me that he found out after the fact that he was several of his forebears had been prominent members of the mafia. And he was never aware of that. Well, I had one one forebearer was Secretary of the Treasury of the Confederacy and trying to do what you can to eliminate part of the the historical anchor that had been tied to Virginia, both from from both slavery and the whole codification of the Jim Crow. I that was not one I've featured very often. No, that's for sure. One of the things that we believe in America, we don't believe in corruption or blood, so I think that lets all of us off the hook in terms of certain of all of our relatives. How early in life did you think that you wanted to become a Marine? How did that happen? I can't tell you exactly the time, but I always knew that I was going to go in the service. It never occurred to me that I would not go in the service. And then when I went, I started out at a land-grant institution where it was required that you take ROTC. I'd have taken it anyhow. And but I was in a land grab institution was a land-grant institution. I'm sorry. The land grab institution was in that place. It was Cornell. I was exactly during at the time. Right. I understand this. I just did an interview with with Don Bayer. And he said, he's a Williams man. Oh, super. Yeah, well, I also got to break off. And he took great pride in that fact that you have that joint association. Very much. And in fact, I'll interrupt this. This interrupts the time sequence. But one of the earliest times I met your mother-in-law, Mrs. Johnson. She said, where did you go to college? And I said, Williams College. And I said, yes, didn't we give you an honorary degree at some point long before I was there? And she said, yes, they almost burned me at the stake. It was 1967 anti-war times. She had a sense of humor about it. Well, in any case, you were at Cornell. Yes, but I had a it was critical for me to have a scholarship. The the success that my grandparents had in both sides of the family did not survive the depression. And they had very little to pass on to my parents. And my parents had not accumulated enough to send me to college. So I knew I had to get a good scholarship. And I had scholarship assistance throughout college. The very first effort was at Cornell Engineering. I did well enough, but I found out later that you had to be in the top third of your class. All I passed everything. But I wasn't eligible to continue with a scholarship. I could certainly have continued, but I was dependent on the scholarship at that point. And so I had two opportunities that I was aware of at that point. I had been selected as a competitive appointee to the U.S. Naval Academy. And I had been accepted in the N.R.O.T.C. regular program. And I chose at that point to switch at my parents' suggestion to the University of Wisconsin. I finished out my undergraduate career there. And I got very much involved in the N.R.O.T.C. and the R.O.T.C. activities. And in my final year there, I was the selected as the brigade commander for all the R.O.T.C. units. But I had already gone down to Quantico and to what they called at the time the training and test regimen, which is now just called OCS. That's really what it is. In any event, I had gone there and I had in the N.R.O.T.C. program in which I was enrolled, there was a Marine officer instructor. Each of the units has a Marine officer who's part of the team. And he recruited me actively. It didn't take a whole lot because I had seen all of the war movies in World War Two. That was a very impressionable time. And it wasn't hard to get me to join the Marine Corps. And I and that that has permanently entered my DNA. Linda sometimes kid me, kids me. She said, you married the Marine Corps before we ever got married. I'm just your mistress. That's it. It's a lighthearted. And I am the the the two best decisions I ever made. I made for I made the one to join the Marine Corps along before Linda and I were married. And so that I don't have to prioritize and that's it. But the most important single decision I ever made was to marry Linda. Absolutely. And so before then, when you went into the Marine Corps, did you think at some point this might be a lifetime commitment? And at many times I did. Fortunately, I was all that turned out to be a very successful experience for me. I don't like to go into great detail about it, but it was it kind of marked me as a man to watch, I guess. In any event, the Marines were good to me. I thrived on all of the challenges that the Marine Corps presented. And it had much more of an sort of an ordered hierarchy to it. One of the reasons that I liked being in the being governor more than I like being in the Senate was because there is at least some structure to it. It's not everybody wandering around in the souk wanting to see if you can trade a co-sponsorship or signing on a particular amendment that may not benefit you one way or another, but will make it very difficult for your opponent to vote either for or against it. That just not that was never anything that I was particularly thrilled to it. And you were always a more natural executive. Yes, I'm much more comfortable in the executive role. I like to have things that I can initiate, that I can be responsible for. And I get the final vote and I'm responsible for for delivering in this, at least I found in the legislative body, you may be either enter legislation or you may be a co-sponsor. And by the time it gets through that whole grinder, it may look very different and may have entirely different priorities. And you frequently end up somewhere in a campaign explaining why you are possibly either in favor of that way, but it didn't end up that way. I took a whole lot more pride in that part of my experience when I could vote against things that had finally reached their fruition in the final vote on the floor. And the votes that most caused me to believe that I was an important part of that machinery at any time were the times I could stand up and oppose things that I thought were fundamentally not in the best interest of the country, were fundamentally wrong. And that that's what energized me about that service, not necessarily being a co-sponsor of every single piece of legislation that comes down. Very telling and very interesting. And so in the mid 60s, you came to the White House. Tell that story. How did that happen? Well, I had gotten because things worked out so well at Quantico and that I was I was the Marine Corps was being particularly good to me in terms of the assignments. They were giving me what I considered to plush assignments. At that point, I wanted to go and prove that I was as good as the Marine Corps thought I was by earning my spurs on the battlefield as a muddy boots Marine. And I mean, everything up until that point had been very much ceremonial. And the reason that I ended up going to the Marine Breaks atonight, which is the head of the command on the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps Band, Marine Corps, Gromit, Dubuque or are all located. And so everybody thinks that that is being ceremonial. And it does. But you usually, in most cases, people have a very good record. Now they now they only assign people there after they have been on at least one successful combat tour. A lot of that. And I hadn't been on a combat tour at that point. And I thought I haven't proven that I'm worthy of the honors that they have given to me. And so it was it was very important to me, although I was never intent on making it a career, that I demonstrate that I was as good as either they thought I was or I thought I was and I couldn't think of leaving active duty before I'd shown that I could live up to my fitness reports or whatever. Well, it's a very, very modest approach, very rare for Washington, D.C. Do you remember the first time you met Lyndon Johnson? The best thing that happened to me, I'm sorry, go ahead. Do you remember the first time you were in a room with President Johnson? I don't remember the specifically the first time. One of the duties of the White House Social Aids is to make the process of state dinners and or major White House functions moves smoothly. And there's always one of the White House Social Aids that stands next to the president and introduces everyone who comes to the line. You give the title and there's usually one of the aides a little down two or three people and said, when you get to the aid standing next to the president, please give them your title, if appropriate, and your name. That makes sure that the president who may know somebody well isn't suddenly surprised or runs a quick senior moment is what I call now, I guess, but so that he's got a name that he can and use. But in almost all the functions to which I was assigned, I ended up being assigned to be that person. And so I got to know from strictly a working relationship. I don't think until I met the president in this case, it was in the I think it was a Lincoln Center room, as I recall, but I had asked after Linda and I had decided to get married, the two of us, that was a mutual decision that we entered into. I didn't go through all of the the usual festivities or whatever of getting down on my knee and having a ring all type of thing. We made a decision. As a matter of fact, I then went back to Marine barracks after spending most of the night up in the Solarium at the White House and had to get get back to work. And I sent some some flowers, which is close thing, as I had come to that point to Linda. And they were intercepted by our mother. And Linda, I think I mentioned this in the book. And Linda, sort of a pained expression, those are mine or whatever. Those are for me. And her mother very politely handed them over. But in any event, I after that point, I asked him, made an appointment through one of his secretaries for a very short personal conversation. And again, I think it was the Lincoln Center room in all likelihood, it probably was. But he came. I got there first and I was seated. He came in and that's the first time we'd really had a personal man to man conversation. I've been part of the furniture up until that point. And he knew why you were there. Yes, I started out. That's right. I said, I assume you know why I'm here. And he said, yes, I think I do. In a way that was was not official at all. It was a loving father knowing that he's about to give away his eldest daughter. And I made the request to him. I said, like I said, I'll start right out. I said, I'm here to to seek the hand. I don't remember exactly how I said it, but I would like to request your permission to marry Linda. And I remember his response. It surprised me. He says, you have it and you have my love. And I thought, wow, when a man in his position putting love into the equation, that's tough. In both cases, there are two married daughters. Their husbands came to me before they formally made the presentation. It wasn't a great secret that we knew that there was some interest, but went through the whole routine. And matter of fact, our youngest son-in-law actually set it up at a Great Falls Park. You'll know where that is now. Nice. And which which for anyone who doesn't know is this beautiful park on the Potomac in Virginia. Yes. And he set up his camera. He had the ring in the hole and he recorded it all on film. And he's actually assisting with the technical part of being able to talk to you today. Wonderful. I'm glad. This is maybe not the most important event you've done, given the earlier part. But glad to know you're there. And thank you for that. How well did you know Mrs. Johnson at that point? Well, Linda and I had been dating. We didn't really probably consider it dating at that point. But Linda, because she was frequently asked to appear at certain functions, particularly at embassies or whatever the case may be. And she needed an escort and they assumed that she would have one. And she was very kind in asking me on a number of occasions to be that escort. So we got to know each other on a much more informal basis. And I'm just glad that I had all of the I was able to establish my credibility in the Marine Corps before I met Linda and or ultimately asked or we it wasn't really may I would you would you marry me? It was it was a decision. I mentioned this in the book, but it's and we just grew together. And it's again, the best single decision or at a decision point that I made the Marine Corps just evolved naturally. But this was a culmination of a relationship that was just right, I believe for both of us. It was certainly right for me. And I'm delighted to have had this many years in a very good relationship with somebody that I love and all of the things that you'd like to say about somebody that you're very, very close to. And why I wanted that relationship to go on until such time as I depart. Sure. Well, it sure comes through in a book. And it's one of the most lovely things in it. And and you you had grown up in a Republican family. Essentially, yes, both both elements of my my parents. My father actually was a Presbyterian and my mother was an Episcopalian. And when they got married, they decided they would go to one church and they would be a part of one party. So they they picked my mother's church and my father's political party at that time. So I thought at that point of myself as a nominal Republican and and was not active in any of those activities. I was active in in college in campus politics, if you will. But it wasn't it wasn't national politics at that time. This is a Cornell. Well, at more of Wisconsin, more of Wisconsin. Yeah, what year would that have been at Wisconsin? I'm sorry. What year would you have been at Wisconsin? I would have graduated in 1961. Right. Yeah. So it's a before the ferment of the the 1960s. So like when you were growing up in Arizona, was Goldwater a name that you heard and knew? Yes, I'm sorry. I didn't hear. When you were growing up in Arizona, was Goldwater a name you knew? Yes. Yes, it was. I mean, I really don't want to go beyond that. And I when I went beyond when I went to the White House a couple of times, at least, Barry Goldwater, Jr. Or maybe at other events, I ran into him or whatever. I don't think I ever met his father. But yes, I was nominally because I was again from Arizona. At that point, I was born in Arizona. Sure. And I have most of my roots are deep in Virginia and in this part of the country. Any event, right? Yeah, which is another thing I did not. I remember it a little bit. But how much your ancestry really does come from Virginia, which which is both both helpful and illuminating later on. When I was first campaigning, both for lieutenant governor and then for governor, Linda would go with me many of the times, but occasionally we would campaign separately. And she got a list of all of the my forebears from Virginia and knew exactly where they were buried. And she was she was in that town. She could mention that so that people that wanted to somehow identify me with just parachuting in, right? I was characterized that way by one of the Democrats in Virginia at one time, who was on the same ticket that I was. Fortunately, I prevailed. Well, I think at the time parachuting into Virginia would mean that your your family had not been there for four centuries or something like that. That's right. And I was able to quote one of my forebears was Speaker of the House of Burgesses. And that's that's I mean, there's not too better than that had been in various and actually had fought on both sides in the Civil War. More of the the Virginians, for the most part, had been on the other side. But I had forebears that came over and fought with a Union Army. One of them ended up in Andersonville as a prisoner. Of the Confederacy at that particular point. So I had a mixed heritage. At least it was something to to hang their hat on. If they if they were favorably impressed, disposed or something, it would give them a reason to remember. And I recognize that benefit. That so-called name identification is important, but only if you can use it in a positive way. Yeah, no, that's absolutely for sure. And do you think the knowledge of your family heritage had a lot to do with? I know, you know, for years, you've been very interested in history. Did it have to do with that? Yes, I'm certain that it's grown. I must I spent the first part of my college thinking that I wanted it to be almost entirely stemmed. And I've been a great encourager. I've offered a lot of encouragement and established some educational high schools here in Virginia that focus on that in particular, including the one that has been frequently touted as the number one high school in the country. And it's this Jefferson. Is that Jefferson? Yes, it's because it was so selective. Unfortunately, the demographics didn't look all that good. I mean, because many of those who were very bright, very well off and had done a very good job in school to that point had advantage. So there was a disproportionate number of those who weren't in particular need at that point of the special properties that education to bring to those who don't have it. So I don't remember where I was going with that. That's another senior moment, I guess. Well, no, and it leads quite naturally to your decision to go to Vietnam. How did that happen? Well, again, that's part of the reason that I wanted to prove that I was as good as apparently the Marine Corps thought I was because of the way I finished at Quantico. And because I thought that I was probably too big for my own bridges at that point, but it was important to me to demonstrate because there was some but some thought that here's somebody who's married the daughter of president, he's going to get kid glove treatment, but I wanted to go to Vietnam well before I came to the White House. That was just really starting up at the time that I graduated from what was called then and still the basic school. All newly commissioned Marine officers spend six months there and it's a competitive environment and because everything had worked out well, I was on a fast track of very desirable assignments. But that didn't prove to any skeptical observer that I wasn't simply being eased along because of a family association. It was important to me to prove it and as a patriot, not as a nationalist, but as a patriot, I recognized that I had been born into a society that gave me enormous advantages in life because of the reasons I was born to an idea that wasn't just a simple heritage. And that was important, but I hadn't had to fight for any of that. And I felt an obligation to at least put my time in. And I very much wanted to be as a commanding as a captain at that point. The best office for a captain bar none is to command an infantry company in combat. And that's the ultimate ambition of almost every Marine officer, particularly those that go into the infantry. That's where you show you've got to the stuff and you prove yourself and you prove and you if you put yourself in the line of fire you've demonstrated that you're committed to carrying out your constitutional responsibilities and their own and your own sense of of proving yourself. For sure. And were you not also in greater danger as the son in law of a president? There was an assumption I was, but I knew that I had Marines. I knew the kind of training they'd all had before I was I was their commanding officer. And I knew that each and every one of us knew that we were responsible for the lives of everybody else, particularly the man on our right and the man on our left. That's a typical way of phrasing it. But you I had great confidence in them. And I and it was important that they have confidence in me, that they have respect for me. And I've always demonstrated that I thought and I found out I realized later on that respect is an important element of the political process. And if you're going to be an advocate for a particular position or what the case may be, if they if the people that are going to cast their opinion in an election don't have respect for you, they they're not going to take it as seriously. And so the Marines, I knew that the Marines had my back and they knew that I had their back. And so there there was a time when we got intelligence that was sent to the First Marine Division headquarters that that the one of the then not Soviet Black, but the the ally, the why am I forgetting that name? They we always call them the the allies and the axis. You mean allies and axis or during the Cold War? Yes, OK, they in any event, the the coalition of the course, mostly Eastern European. Oh, sure. Yeah, they had the Soviet block. Yeah, the Soviet block or whatever. But they had intelligence that the the Vietnamese to the northern Virginia NVA, the Northern Virginia Army and the North Vietnam. Yes, you're right. You're right. You're right. Thank you for that part. Somebody else would have used that if I were going to go back in the politics. Thank you. In any event, they they received intelligence that I was a specific target for a group of I assumed NVA because that they were much better organized than the Viet Cong at that point. And they were the ones that were in control of many of the activities of the Viet Cong. In any event, that they were going to to try to capture me to use a negotiation on the in Paris or whatever. So I will tell you that I had I became a much a very close friend over a number of years with John McCain, who knows who do exactly. And I developed enormous respect for him because he was able to withstand what being accepting the hospitality of the enemy was was really like. In any event, I didn't have that experience. Then I had met his father before I ever met John. He was over in the Hanoi Hilton is what they call it at the time. And so I didn't meet him to later on. He was actually when I didn't mean to digress here. But the first time I met John, he was actually back here and he was a Senate military liaison. And he was with my friend, Scoop Jackson, and he was making a trip to. Or was it? I've forgotten. Anybody, he came over on. He came on something. And so we struck up a friendship then. And it's last ever since Scoop was sort of my first real idol, if you will, in the political process. And you were thought of very much as a Scoop Jackson Democrat. I remember when you came down. Yes, he's he's he was able to work across the aisle on things that mattered, but he was good on human issues. And he was he was supportive of a strong, credible national defense and a strong military, which is important military. And I gained credibility, I guess, coming in, particularly for a Democrat in Virginia. There was certainly concern that I might somehow be one of those antiwar folks. But the very fact that I had been commander in combat in Vietnam relieved me of having to make apologies for anything in that area. And it was always a benefit. I try to convince some other folks down the line and said having that experience will give you a great deal of credibility in things later on in life. And I know of very few who had the experience of combat in Vietnam, particularly in the those who went on to college and some graduate education that don't look upon that as a very positive experience in their life. For sure. I've sometimes called the Marine Corps the world's largest fraternity. Yes, no, as others have. And when you came back from Vietnam, your father in law at least briefly wanted to come back and run the family business in Austin. How serious was that? I were down visiting. We went normally went down for various holidays and reunions or whatever. And he took the two of us. This was after clearly after we decided to get married. And I guess it was after we were married. It must have been after we were married. We didn't be OK. I'm getting I'm getting a cue from the person who's helping me here and has been helping me on the book for the last five years on the professional side. In any event, he put he got got both of us to jump in the car with him. That's back when the secret service would let him drive himself. They were in a follow up car as we had with during most of our marriage or the first part of our marriage, while Linda still rated singles rose protection. In any event, he took us out into a very nice part of Austin and pointed out a very attractive, had good curb appeal home. He said, that could be yours. And I did. And I tried to be as respectful as I could. I wasn't expecting that. But I said, thank you, Mr. President, but we're not planning to move to Texas. And he that later with a good friend at the ranch, he related this experience or got back to me. If only I'm Harold Woods, I guess, he said he's a he's an. An ordinary SOB, I think it was independent, independent. Oh, he's very independent. That's right. And I think that I think you're right in the book, independent bastard. I'm just calling from the book. That's exactly right. That's right. I didn't know. We'll just want to get this one right. There you go. You're right. I was I've learned you have been working with the media for a long time. And you know that there are certain words. But now I've noticed that most of those denials are out. I mean, you'll see them in in incredible publications, right? That you see a verbatim transcript of something. No, I just have just certain words identified only by the first letter. In any event, but I look upon that as grudging admiration. No, I think that I think that was a compliment from him. And he had his next to last heart attack in your house in Charlottesville. If I remember correctly, you were in law school at UVA. Tell that story a little bit. OK, he and Mrs. Johnson had come down. I can't remember. I don't see Linda's stuck in her head in and out, but I can't remember the occasion for it at this point, but they had come down to bring it 72, I think. That sounds about right. And I think at that point, he'd already accepted the invitation from the University of Virginia to be the commencement speaker. If I if I have the dates in the right lineup of any event, they came down. We offered them our bed in our bedroom and we went down to sleep in what was normally our guest bedroom, which was not quite as fancy. They weren't either one of a split level house, I think. In a split level house, that's right. In any event, during the night, we realized that there was something going on and we got up and there was one of the Secret Service agent was trying to get aid and get the local rescue squad to come in and pick him up. But he and he did have a heart attack on that occasion. It was not it was the last non fatal heart attack that he had. And he was determined to die in Texas. And he and it was somewhat apocryphal, but the the story and so because I didn't have any first hand knowledge, I quoted another author who had confirmed it enough for his satisfaction that they arrived to pick him up from the hospital and they found an an abandoned wheelchair with I remember I may have put something else that was on at the time in any event. That that sort of summarized his comfort level. He wanted to go home. Was that really true that I've read the story? But was it a true story that I couldn't confirm it? I wanted to make sure everything in the book was factual. Right. Yeah. No, you're very careful about that. It's been helping me for the last five years, I guess, has fact checked every single thing I've got in there to make sure that it is absolutely correct. I don't want to have any dispute over the accuracy of anything that I say in the book. My feelings, anybody can dispute those, whether they're either good or bad, or whether I even had them or not, if I didn't share them with anybody else. But certain things that could be nailed down tight have been. And because we couldn't, I didn't have any first hand. I wasn't there. The Secret Service came out to pick him up at that point. Or we're coming to pick him up in the hospital. And it makes a great story. I don't want to ruin it by saying that I don't think it was true. It was very much in spirit and in sync with what we knew to be his first love in terms of where where he was from. Sure. I'll ask you a question of the style of Brian Lamb, your close friend. I don't know him as well as you do, but I like him very much too and admire him. What was LBJ like in his last months? Well, he'd certainly slowed down, but we had any number of visits we would normally go down for the holidays. We'd go down over the Christmas holiday and through New Year's for a couple of weeks when we could and we went down on other occasions. But he was clearly slowing down. And I think probably the best answer you could get that from that would be Doris Kearns Goodwin, who was helping him write his memoir in effect at that particular. So he was with him all the time. We were in Charlottesville and I was playing on a team in the city. This happened to be a volleyball team and I was just changing into my athletic gear and we got the phone call and there was a Marine Sergeant Major Gully in the headquarters, Bill Gully, Bill Gully. OK, and any event he called to say that I guess that was the first notification we got any event. He said, President Nixon is sending a plane down to pick you up and take us down and so we quickly got dressed, packed whatever we could. And we were off and I explained in the book the scene when I got there for somebody, the ranch foreman was normally a very gruff, hard charger. This is Dale Malichuk. Dale Malichuk, yes, you probably knew him or met him at some point in event. And he was just so crushed by the fact that he was actually human in that respect that he was he had limited time like the rest of us. In any event, he was was broken up in ways that I had never seen. Really, any any man that I thought was the sort, the old characterization of a quote, manly man. He he was just in constant whatever it was. It was quite and that was a lot of people certainly felt that way. No, that is he'd always been a presence, even though he was no longer in position of actual authority. And we wanted him to see his grandchildren grow up. And he didn't get it. He did meet his first two grandchildren. Our the daughter of they are our third daughter from his side. He met Linda, the sister Lucy had a little boy. That was the first grandson and at least one other of their grandchildren. He lived to see so he got that part of it. But we thought with all of the turmoil that toward the end of his presidency, particularly with the the Vietnam situation was certainly not wildly popular back in this country, that he ought to at least have a chance to see his grandchildren grow up and he didn't. And did you think at the time was it thought that he might not have much time left or did you think it would be possible? Well, no, I mean, we were aware of the fact that he was not as strong as he had been. But we remembered well that he was always of the view that his his male predecessors had not lived as long as they might normally be expected to live. And so at one point he had a formal assessment of how long he would live by an actuary, wasn't it? Yes, by an actuary, by yes, by an actuary. So it was it was scientifically based and to the extent they can something like that. And they said, you will live to be sixty four years old. And it was right on the dot, which was right on the dot. He died at age sixty four. Linda, of course, and I when we each passed that part of our lives, we thought about the fact that we've outlived her father. We haven't outlived her mother yet. Her mother died at ninety four. Right. I'm now in my eighties. Linda is in her late seventies. So we've got a ways to go. Both of my parents lived into their late eighties. And because I stayed in good shape after I left after duty on the Marine Corps, I thought I would just basically live almost forever. That wasn't my desire. I just wanted to stay healthy. But I learned that that was not indeed the case. May it be true. And also in the early 1970s, I think I've spoken to cardiologists who say that the things that LBJ suffered from with the medicine of twenty twenty one could be dealt with quite easily. And he might have lived for a long time. Yeah, I don't have any. I mean, from from the day that he died, we he was always popping these little pills. Nitroglycerin. Yes, and the nitroglycerin pills. I don't know whether any of today's medicine I haven't heard either Willis Hirsch, who was his heart doctor at the time, or anybody else, opine on whether they. And I guess he's he's probably gone now, too. But I haven't heard I haven't heard anybody opine specifically on on what was ultimately his cause of death. Treated him. Certainly he'd had enough heart trouble that it wasn't a surprise as such. But it was it was nonetheless devastating for all the members of the family and people who cared a great deal about it. How could it not be? And and this was January of 1973. Had you decided to go into politics by then? January of 1973. When when he passed, had you decided no, I have not. No, I have no idea whether he would have encouraged me or not. I'm trying to think if I've got the dates right, because I didn't I certainly was not on any kind of a political track at that point. Although I was getting active, Bill Spong was the person that I mentioned him in the book, I thought he was just perfect as a politician, right? Not not all so full of himself, not so self centered, so narcissistic, whatever he was, and he didn't have much charisma at all. Really, Saturday from Virginia, center from junior right, very conscientious man. And I, I, later on, I got Bill Spong to be the chairman of a commission that I had put together to try to reconstitute a viable Democratic Party in Virginia. Now, in truth, most of the heavy lifting was done by Stuart or Jim Sullivan and Stuart Damage, who had been with me in other capacities. But he signed off on it and just having him on it was a great benefit. And much like having Colgate Darden, who was one of my predecessors as governor and had then been president of the University of Virginia. And I used to meet with him all the time. I think it's only because of those meetings that I gained any real credibility with the old guard, if you will, in Virginia. And I really learned a great deal about Virginia history from many of those folks and his friends, but particularly from Colgate Darden, which I would visit. Yes, I would visit him. He had an office in the bank building in in the Hampton Roads area. And I would, any time I was down there, I would go by and leave time for at least an hour so I could visit with Colgate Darden. And then it was a great measure of pride for me to have him come out of retirement. He hadn't been in the political process for years to put my name in nomination for governor. And that just meant a great deal to me that because he he was respected by the old guard, some of whom might still be a little uncertain about this this guy, because we know he was born in Arizona and he came from Wisconsin or whatever the time. And I understand how that comes about. And and for those of us who study your years as governor, what is the most important thing for us to know? Well, there's there's two dimensions. I think that I was able to help pull Virginia and to a maybe lesser extent, the rest of the nation towards some release from the captivity of Jim Crow slavery and the whole reconstruction process. We were still held back and Jim Crow had been integrated into a number of constitutions at that point by the people who had lost the war, but wanted to perpetuate that. I think you use the term the white supremacy or whatever, at some point, but this clearly was not going to be in the long term interest of Virginia or there wasn't the right thing to do either. I mean, it's I got involved in a number of the so-called human rights issues. And I was I've been very pleased to help increase the awareness and concern that we have for all of our citizens, whether they were born in the United States, whether they happen to be of a particularly religious denomination or party or had various physical or whatever characteristics that we ought to treat them as fellow human beings. And I think we started that. I was able to appoint a number of black or African American men and women and a number of women to positions not just infiltrate government when it would work on maintenance type activities, but positions which involve policy, which involve leadership. And this was I figured that if I did enough of this, that it would be very hard for anybody to ever go back on that because you would see that it works the same thing as far as you could have a Democrat in the governor's office and so-called Democratic administration without having the whole Commonwealth of Virginia reticenter. Sure. And of course, real doubt about that at one point. It was a very conservative Republican state for a long period of time. And I like to think over the long run that I help make it acceptable to be a Democrat in Virginia and to accept you had to be compassionate enough to govern, compassionate enough to care and tough enough to govern. And I was able to bring both of those pieces of the equation together in ways that I felt very good about. And I commend all of those who succeeded me in trying to make sure that we maintain that commitment that we've made to the basic principles on which the nation was founded. Well, it's interesting because I remember once probably 30 years ago, I was asking your mother-in-law, Mrs. Johnson, which political figures she had been impressed by, you know, during her time. And a lot of the names that she mentioned, including yours, were political leaders who were in formally confederate states who had to do exactly what you're talking about. Yes, she had respect for Northern Liberals, but I think she had more respect for people who had to work with a situation that was a lot more difficult. No question that that was I consider that the most important long term challenge. And you could you could exhibit support for a progressive movement in a number of areas. The easiest to be able to calculate would be support for education. Right. And increasing teacher salaries. And I'm very proud at this point that our youngest daughter decided she got a regular undergraduate degree and then got a teaching certificate. So when she came back up this area, she was offered not only a position in the math department of the high school, but she was offered to be the coach of a team which had been one of the mortal enemies familiar with the McLean area. There's Langley and McLean High Schools, and our middle daughter graduated from Langley High School. Our youngest daughter graduated from McLean High School. And they were always that they had a bull, I can't remember the name of it now, but that they fought for. And then after this daughter was quoted on something, I remember seeing someone in the paper, they used the word traitor. The fact that she'd played for McLean and she was now coaching their arch enemy. She had done well in both of those assignments. And all three of our daughters have done very well in their own professional lives. And Lynn and I are very proud of them. I can vouch for that, knowing at least two of them fairly well. We've got about five more minutes. I want to be respectful of your time. Final question I've got is you talk about this in the book, but you've been out of politics now for about 20 years. If someone were to ask you, what was the difference between serving in the Senate in your time and the way politics has gotten in 2021? How was the culture different? Well, it hasn't gotten in my judgment any better. It's there has been a long decline from the time where the the Senate and the House were both all respected institutions. They have now become almost tribal. And I have been very and I do speak about this in the book. That that is a concern that it's you gain certain credibility with very narrow groups who have a passionate feeling for whatever they're doing, that you can enrage them and sometimes the activities are designed to enrage that small group and they're sufficient to get you through certain legislative hurdles, whatever the case may be, and to get reelected if you appeal to enough of those who really want to basically stick their finger in the eye or poke somebody in the nose that they think somehow or on the other side of the equation. Did you ever think in your lifetime that Virginia would be called a purple or a blue state? No, but I'm very pleased it has. It certainly wasn't in that era. And I like to think that if there's anything in a strictly political sense that we were now regarded as a purple state and we're we're regarded as as a now a good chance for presidential candidates to carry Virginia. I'm trying to think who was the last Carter didn't carry it Virginia. No, did Clinton? Did Clinton ever carry Virginia? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I try to be J did in 60. I got I got him. Hmm. Yeah, that's what I thought. It was the last Democratic or Virginia. Yeah, that's still the case. OK. OK, I was thinking that somebody else had not Virginia, not until Obama. Not OK, Obama. OK. Yes, in recent times, we were going back into the history. I mean, I think it became respectable, if you will, and a lot of the folks that we see at church or at the grocery store, whatever the case may be, to be a Democrat again. And and figure that again, we're not going to be reduced to ruin if if if Democrats are in charge of something that will affect our lives. You didn't strike people as a very revolutionary, scary figure. That's right. I have never been really considered a revolutionary. And as I get on in years, I recognize it. I want to know more about a lot of history that I didn't take when I was in college and I got to be careful at this point. I don't want to advertise too much. But we have a daughter who started off with as a principal recruiter for the teaching company. It's now called the Great Courses. Right. I've signed up for lots of their courses. Wonderful. I really started to take all of them yet. But they're the courses that I would love to have taken. If I weren't thinking I was wanted to be an engineer at that point. And I had shined away from those kinds of courses. Now I'm going to take them and I'm going to really end up. If I say Peter doesn't call too soon, as what I would consider a reasonably educated human being. Wonderful. I think that's a part of my life and a lot more caring of the details of the suffering of the human spirit and others who are either without or deprived of certain of the damages that I was born with. And I think as the book shows those values have been pretty consistent throughout your life. I like to comment on that. I'm just saying that as a reader. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. That that that is who I think I am now. And one of the things about running a book is that you if you haven't been writing in the first person, you sort of find out ultimately who you are. Right. I mean, it took me. I started this about 20 some years ago. And only in the last few years that this pandemic has been terrible for everybody. But for those of us who had unfinished business that they could do at home, it proved a blessing in disguise. But I don't want to trade, give any kind of a trade off between it was it was good for me, but it was bad for you. Of course, it was terrible, but it did have certain odd effect like this. Yeah, it's OK. That that was a benefit. And I want to continue to take advantage of the opportunity to learn more and learn more about the individuals and the the the real challenges they had. And that's reason I have my position on a couple of dishes have changed because I know more about it. Now, I make passing reference to a couple of them in the book, but I'm seeing more and more that I'm going to look beyond the law, if you will, or the Constitution alone in determining what I think is the right thing to do and what what is the what do you feel good about? You know, the man upstairs knows everything you've done. But not not everybody else knows that you're actually a fairly decent human being. And if you want to escape with anything, having people think that at least he tried and he tried to be a good man. And his word was his bond. That's that's absolutely true. And evolution and learning are hallmarks of a great leader. And a great leader has written this wonderful book. We've had the pleasure of having him for an hour. Chuck Robb in the arena, a memoir of love, war and politics. Thank you so much, Chuck, for spending the time. Thank you, Michael. I very much appreciate it.