 Thanks for staying with us. It's still the Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. When the new administration of Bola Tinibu came into power, a lot of people were thinking that he was going to cut the cost. And one of the things that made people begin to think, maybe it is business as usual, is the fact that he came into power and brought in up to almost 50 ministries and ministers. And while people are crying about that, that the cost of governance may be too much, these ministries should be pruned to a very manageable number. Tinibu has said that merging ministries will lead to non-performance. So he's justifying the huge cabinet that he has because, according to himself, he wants better performances. Okay, to discuss this with us is Mr. Nick Agouli, a public affairs analyst. Good morning and welcome to the program, Mr. Agouli. Good morning and good morning to our viewers globally. Okay, 48 ministers or so in the present cabinet and the president is justifying it. What is your take? He says it will lead to non-performance if he prunes down that number, if he cuts down that number into a more sizable one, it might lead to non-performance. What's your take? My take is that the president is not being honest with us in Nigeria. The president is not being honest. The president needed to look elsewhere. In America, the United States of America, where we copied this democracy form. There are only 15 ministries, 15, one fight, and they are running a trillion dollar economy, trillions of dollars economy with a population of over 300 million people, land size that is about 10 times the size of Nigeria on every index. The United States dwarfs Nigeria, and they have only 15 departments, 15. So what is the business of President Inibu saying, I need 48 ministers to run a small economy. The President Inibu's budget is about 20 billion dollars. Federal government budget of 20 something trillion, but today's dollar that is 1000 Naira plus to a dollar. That is your 20 billion. You are using 20 billion for 48 ministers. Whereas somebody in America is using 3 trillion dollars and using only 15 ministers to run that economy. So it doesn't make sense. Even if you look north-west from where we are, the United Kingdom. How many cabinet ministers are in the United Kingdom? I think by the last count, they were 18 if I'm sure. They are not up to 20. Cabinet ministers, I cannot in any way situate and justify President Inibu's assertion that he needs 48 people. By the way, apart from the ministries, Nigeria has got hundreds and hundreds of departments and agencies. Some of them are very, you know, even by their name, you just know that these departments are duplications. So I am totally, totally opposed to this idea that I need 48 ministers to run an efficient government. Okay, but he feels that way and some people will agree with him. But let me find out, why do you think an economy like America succeeds with 15 departments and we find it difficult to succeed even when we have a humongous amount of people in the cabinet? So America succeeds with 15 departments because institutions are made strong. Institutions have been built over time to withstand rules. Like in the way you saw Donald Trump in his first term, he was trying to overpower the American bureaucracy. He was trying to do things like he lost an election and he tried to do everything possible to say the election was rigged that he was not going to hand over power. The American institutions overpowered him and more or less kicked him out of office. So when you have a system that is efficient, that is running, that is doing things, that is what makes your government to run is look about the number of people. President Tindipu needs to ask himself, why is it that under my nose, I am having 48 billion Naira stolen in the humanitarian ministry. I am having a minister transfer 500 million, half a billion plus to a personal account. These are the questions we have to ask. I mean, this is impossible to happen in the American system. I was discussing this with a group of people and I was saying look, President Clinton asked a group of young people I was talking to. I said have you heard of Monica Lewinsky? They said no, they have not heard of Monica Lewinsky. I said okay, let me tell you about Monica Lewinsky. Monica Lewinsky was an intern at the White House in Washington where President Clinton was the sitting president. And while she was at the White House, herself and President Clinton started to have an affair, right there in the White House. And President Clinton was enjoying this affair to the extent that when Monica Lewinsky's internship was about to finish, President Clinton asked the White House staffers to give Monica Lewinsky another tenure for her internship. And the White House staffers looked the president in the face directly and told him that it is the policy that nobody repeats internship at the White House. It is the policy. President Clinton could not do anything about this. He could not get an intern to serve another term in his office. And so he had to call on his friend to look for another internship slot around the White House. And his friend was able to fix Monica Lewinsky in a company in Washington around the White House to go and do another term of internship. That is the kind of institutional strength we're talking about where a sitting president is internship or we're not even talking about a proper job. He could not have his way to make a young girl to repeat internship in his office. This is government. This is what is required. If President Nibbu wants to leave a legacy for Nigeria, that is what he needs to do. President Nibbu has shown over time in his actions that he is not ready to suffer the pains of his economy decisions with Nigeria. This is a president that in his inaugural speech few subsidies gone. The following day, few rose from about 180, 190 to 600 and something we're buying now. Some places are even buying 700. These are forest unification. All these things are bringing pains. But when the president wrote the supplementary budget, the budget was about buying cars for himself, buying cars for his wife, buying cars for the vice president, renovating vice president residence in Lagos. You actually said for how many days does the vice president spend in Lagos that made it a priority that this president was going to run a supplementary budget. President Nibbu is traveling all over, globally, translating around the world, everywhere, and he's not showing empathy with Nigerians. Look, Nigerians, me too, I'm tightening my bed. I'm cutting all the fat around me. I too, I'm making sacrifices. So why Nigerians are making sacrifices? The president doesn't show by his action that he's also doing so. Yeah, well, but he caught the number of people on his entourage and that of the vice president and so many other ministers and all that. So maybe that's showing that he's also sacrificing. At least that's what we're told. Okay, so these are cosmetics. I see these as cosmetics. These are clear cosmetics because, you know, let us be clear about this. First and foremost, the president didn't need to be doing all the trips that he's doing. He didn't need to be doing all those trips. He didn't need to. That is the first thing I want to talk about. He didn't need to be doing all those trips. The second thing is, so if we're talking about cost cutting, if we're talking about cost cutting and if we're talking about tightening his bed to show Nigeria that he too is making sacrifices. The president didn't need to be embarking on all the trips that he's embarking on. Like for instance, he didn't need to go to the G20 summit when he knew that he was going to the United Nations General Assembly because the leaders that were in the G20 were in the National General Assembly for instance. You know, so to show that he was making all those trips and making it with those large delegations, look at the kind of delegation he took to COP 28. And then when Nigeria has not started putting pressure on him and saying, oh, you are traveling with big delegation, then he now comes and says, I'm cutting down on the delegation. So we can see that it is not from his mind that he is cutting on those delegations. He is responding to pressure. If this president had the mind to be efficient in the running of his affairs, he didn't even need to be going on those trips. He didn't need to be carrying those delegations in the first place. So cutting down on the number of delegates on his delegation or the number of delegates on his trips. To me, number one, he's just responding to pressure. Number two, he should actually be cutting down on his trips entirely. He should be cutting down on his trips entirely. This whole thing that says, I am going now because I'm looking for investors. It's very nauseating if I'm permitted to use that word because your house is full of stench. Full of stench. And every day you are out, it's like you are running a hotel. And the hotel is, the toilets are dirty. Nobody has cleaned the toilet. They are smelling. The beds have not been made. The place has not been swept. There is no power supply in the hotel. No water is running, nothing. And every day you are spending money to travel all over the place, to go and look for guests to come to your hotel. Whereas the guests who are already lodging in your hotel are living. We have the multinationalists that are living in Nigeria. Even under this government, they are living. Sher Jones handed over their on-show assets and said, I'm done. I won't do it again. And they're over. They are living. You know, the lies of GSK, they are living. So you have this hotel that you are not maintaining. But your work is that I will always go out to go and look for guests to come and lodge in my hotel. And you're carrying like 200 people to go and look for these guests. And when people are crying, you're not saying, okay, sorry, sorry, I won't carry these 200 people again. I will carry only 120. To come and bring people in a hotel that is smelling with stench, it's not going to happen. Who is going to bring their investments here? When they kidnap you, the government is doing nothing about it. Instead, people go on crowdfunding to go and release people who have been kidnapped. And there is a bee at the National Assembly that says, if you even go and pay ransom, we are going to arrest you, try you, and jail you. So as a company, your staff have been kidnapped. You now decide that you are going to do something about it to release your staff. The government will come and arrest you, try you, and jail your directors to pay the ransom. And you think, who is going to come to that play? So President Yubu, you're totally home. And deal with the issue that can be dealt with in Nigeria. Why are we depending on 3,000 megawatts of electricity for 200 million people? When United Arab Emirates is only 3,000, it's giving 3,000 to 1 million people. Who are giving 3,000 to 200 million people? Why is there kidnapping? This is security. Why is our state plants down? Why are our refineries down? Why is agriculture not booming? Why are farmers still going to farmers who speak today with their brute energy instead of giving them mechanization? Why are the roads this bad? Why is it that inland waterways have not been dragged so that we will have water transportation and all of that? These are the fundamental things that President Yubu needs to sit down and deal with. And he doesn't need more than the 36 ministers that have enough proof for him and the Constitution, which to me is already too much. Okay, well, let's look at this issue which we have always been talking about like it's the chicken and the egg, which one comes first. We always say this. You talked about institutions working and that's the reason America can survive with 15 departments and we are claiming that 48 or more or at least 36 ministers are what we need to run the economy and run the state. Now, when you talk about institutions, it seems as if the institutions are not a place. They are not places. They are the people. So do you see, for instance, a Nigerian looking at the president in the eye and telling him this girl cannot serve another tenant as an intern? Do you see that ever happening in Nigeria? Because if that cannot happen, then how will the institutions work? The institutions are the people, aren't they? I agree with you. It's like a chicken and egg thing, but it has to start with leaders. It's leaders that build the institutions. The institutions on their own cannot just be built by magic, you know? So leaders and the people build institutions. I always mention the people and when I mention the people, I know precisely what I'm talking about. There is a missing piece of the jigsaw in Nigeria. In Nigeria, we have three arms of government, the executive, the legislature, and the judiciary. The missing bit in governance in Nigeria is the people among government. When I say this, I know precisely what I'm talking about. Because Nigerians are not engaged as members of part of the process, the interview process to recruit leaders. So that is why at elections, you are seeing turnout of 30% or less. Where are the rest 70% or the people? They are not engaged. There is nothing border to them who is going to be the leader. Because to them, they don't trust the process. They have no faith in the process and they don't want to partake in it. But that is wrong. And after the 30% or less goes to recruit the leaders for the 100%, both the 30% and the 70% that didn't border are not ready and willing to be part of the governance process. As we speak today, people are already looking forward to 2027 to repeat the cycle. Nobody is ready to put pressure on the leaders to say you have to build the institution. You have to let institutions work. Institutions become too strong if they are allowed to work. If you don't allow them to work, then you are going to have the kind of situation we have in Nigeria. So as you see, President Clinton allowed the institution of the White House to work. And that is why when they told him, Mr. President, Nipode repeats internship in the White House. That is the policy. He didn't reroute himself to get Monica Lewinsky to repeat internship. He didn't suck the staffers in the White House who looked him in the face. He didn't force Monica Lewinsky into the White House. And do you know the reason why President Clinton, even if he wanted to, did not do that is because he was afraid of the repercussions by the fourth arm of government, the people, be Clinton as President of the United States, but found a way either by influencing of rerouting himself to get Monica Lewinsky to come back to the White House. Those White House staffers who simply have gone out and sold their stories. That is what Mr. President has done. And Americans will be open arms with the President. The President was fully aware of the repercussions of that story coming out into the public domain. That is why to save his presidency, to save his party, the Democratic Party, to save his image and his family, he just let Monica Lewinsky go. In Nigeria, the President can do it and nothing will happen. Like now, we have a President who has increased the cabinet from the 36th, allowed by constitution, to 48th. And say, you guys can go to hell. It doesn't matter. And Nigerians are those sides sitting down, looking at it, doing nothing. Until the fourth arm of government in Nigeria begins to do its work. This democracy will never enjoy the dividends. But how do we differentiate between the fourth arm of government doing its work and just witch hunting or just smear a campaign of a colony, as they call it, on the President's administration? Because there's a thin line between criticizing and just trying to make things very difficult for the person who is in power. So how do we differentiate that? How do we see that things are done correctly and it is done with a clear conscience? What channels can be used to make sure that is addressed? All that is in the mix. Everything is part of the fourth arm of government in the mix. You see, the press is part of the fourth arm of government. So if you go to a place like the United States, there is nothing that a Democrat president, Joe Biden will do that Fox News will present. There's nothing. Because Fox News leads to the Republican Party. Whereas when Donald Trump was president as a Republican, you will never see CNN praising. I mean, of course, Donald Trump has his own issues. But even on the good things that he did, CNN will never praise him because we will never have praised him because the CNN is leaning toward the Democratic Party. And the same thing in print media and all of that. So it all amounts to the pressure that we're talking about. So the pressure is that some of the pressure are legit that people across the divides are putting the pressure. I can assure you that if President Clinton had forced his way to let Monica Lewinsky repeat internship at the White House, people on both sides of the divide, whether Democrats or Republicans or independents, they would have come up against him. So there are legit issues that draw up almost the entire country facing the leaders. Then there are issues where this criticism is pure politics. As in like, if you like cut your flesh, let blood be dripping, we're not going to say anything good about you. All that is part of the pressure. And we need that pressure in Nigeria. We need the pressure where the people on their own have their eyes firmly fixed on the price. And that price is ensuring that their leaders are getting the right. And what we say leaders is not only in the executive arm of government. It is at the legislative arm of government. It is at the judicial arm of government. You see, like the judiciary in Nigeria. They pass all sorts of judgments. They do all sorts of things. The people just let them. In this way, the most Supreme Court complex could be locked up by the people. Shut down. If the people believe that they have passed a judgment that doesn't make sense, a judgment that they themselves are unable to explain as we have seen in Nigeria. And that even the Supreme Court don't reverse that particular judgment. In future judgments, they will think about what happens. And they will say, no, we have to do it right. We just have to get it right this time. That is what happens. And keep telling Nigeria that the way we are operating, God has to send an angel to come and be president of Nigeria and then angels to be governors and all of that for things to work. Because we just let leaders and say, do whatever you want. It's only angels that will do the right thing. When they know that even if they do the wrong thing, nothing happens to them. Even the Son of God was crucified. So even angels come. I don't know how they can function in Nigeria. But the worrisome thing is that what you mentioned about the news outlets, for instance, being there to checkmate and also being the mouthpiece of the people, it works for them outside Nigeria. But in Nigeria, that's the same thing that has brought more problems. It started with the time of M.K.O. Abiola. He ran newspapers and he was in the space. And because of that, a lot of politicians have seen that maybe it also helped him in his cause. Abiola was a good man, no doubt. But now, almost every media house that you see, be it print or electronic media, is run by a politician. And how do you hold the person who is paying your salary accountable for the things that he's doing wrong? I'm not saying there are no media houses that are speaking the truth. But most of these media houses are just established for the purpose of propaganda that will be of benefit to the politicians. So the greatest mouthpiece of the people is compromised. What other outlets can we use to fight this battle that we are in? Outlets are there many. Do you know that the constitution of Nigeria creates the executive branch of government, the legislative and the judicial branches of government. The same constitution creates the people and the government. If you look into the constitution, the constitution is very specific about the powers of the people and the government, the fourth and the government. Number one, it gives us the right to vote. And that is where it all starts. Nigeria's problem is simple because we have the wrong people in power. Nigeria's problem is that our quality people, those who have what it takes to turn around things, are working in companies. If you go to oil companies today, the telecoms, the banks, all of those places, that is where quality Nigerians are turning around things, making things happen. Whereas those who couldn't compete in the private sector find themselves into politics. And in politics, everybody can be recruited. It only requires you to do certain things and you seize power. And once you have the power, you do whatever you want to do. So those who couldn't compete are non-politicians. They are non-political leaders. They make the country so hard for every other person. Those quality people that are working in banks and oil companies decide to jack back. As we were speaking today, our best brains in the private sector are resigning, leaving Nigeria and carrying their expertise abroad. So the constitution gives us, the people, the fourth and the government, the power to choose these leaders. That's number one. The constitution gives all the powers to impression our members of our national assembly and state assemblies through the recall process. Have you heard any constituency begin a recall proceeding of their elected representatives, either at the national or state assembly? It's the powers that have been given to us by the constitution. The constitution grants all the power to protest the freedom of our association. The constitution grants all the power of free speech. All these are tools that have been handed over to the fourth and more government to use to put this pressure. The question is, are we using them? The answer is no, because the first power, which is the power to select those who will be these leaders, only 30% of us who are eligible come forward to exercise that power. So it's not only about the press, it's also about the people because you see, and it's not the day, I must keep emphasizing this point. Everywhere else, even in those countries where our people are jacked back into, once you arrive there, you will notice the mood. The mood is that the leaders are delivering good governance because they are essentially afraid of the people. And when the people who see that the leaders are trying to destroy institutions, they come against the leaders. And if the leaders don't destroy the institution, that is how the institutions become strong. So this thing is a process. And until we Nigerians are ready for this process, I can see how this democracy is going to work for us. Okay, I would like to thank you. The bottom line is that a bigger cabinet leads to better governance is SCAM. And we should look into strengthening our institutions to make sure that our country works. That's the bottom line of all this we've been discussing. Thank you so much, Mr. Agule. Thank you and have a nice day. You too. We've been talking with Mr. Nick Agule, a public affairs analyst and also an oil and gas expert. We were looking at the fact that the president has said that merging ministries will lead to non-performance. And that's why he has a very large cabinet. The constitution allows a minister, at least from every state of the Federation, and that makes it 36. Made it 48. That means ministers and ministers of state and all that are in the frame. But he has said that the justification is that ministries that are merged together may lead to non-performance. Well, let's look at how the coming days will be. We'd like to thank Nick for coming on the program. We'd like to thank you for being there steadfastly watching us and being a part of our program from start to finish or from wherever points you joined us. Let's do it again tomorrow. And until then, we wish you a very wonderful day. My name is Nick Agule Agade. Bye for now.