 Hello everyone, welcome to episode 94 of this The Agile Pubcast, the podcast where you get a little update from me and Jeff Watts about what we've been doing in lockdown, because it seems to be the same every week right now. I know, but good news, the pubs are opening. In the UK, from the 4th of July, which is this Saturday coming, we might be allowed to go out for a drink somewhere other than our own garden. Yes, it's true, the pubs are starting to reopen, but we hope you're doing well wherever you might be in the world, one of our global listeners, I'm sure you are. But lockdown may be easing wherever you are, we sincerely hope that it is. We hope you're subscribed, make sure you are wherever you get all your other podcasts, we're usually listed now in your podcast provider, so make sure you're subscribed, you'll get all these updates, all these episodes, and they're coming thick and fast right now. But in this one, we talk about the Scrum Mastery lockdown task that our contestants have just completed. It was all about finding your most valuable object, so I'll let you listen on to hear that. Let's play the jingle. Hello Paul, hello everybody. How are you? Same old, same old. Nothing's changed. It's a little bit colder today, so I'm in jeans for the first time in a while. I've still got my shorts off. It's going to take me a serious change for me to get out my shorts now. We're nearly in July mate, nearly in July. So it is a mental thing, is it if you get out your shorts now that it's a meeting defeat? It feels very strange for me to put a pair of trousers on, I'll say that if we have to go back to trousers. So yes, what have you got there to drink my friends? Well, I've got, I'll show it to the camera, force majeure, which I think is quite relevant. Do you know what force majeure means? Isn't it like an active god type of thing? Yeah, no, it's certainly an active god, but an active power outside of our control I think, but yeah it has become sort of known as active god. I think well, I think it was in the olden days it was considered active god. It's a common clause in the contract, isn't it? If it's anything that can't be predicted then put it down to force majeure and the contract is done and void. It's a non-alcoholic Belgian beer and Belgian beers are usually quite alcoholic. This one smells like a beer. It doesn't smell like beer flavored squash, like some of them. Until Thursday and it gets me, it's a little bit of banana. They do like their fruit in Belgium, I think they're fruit beers, and it tastes like a beer. Be honest, I'm surprised by that. It normally, normally you could tell a non-alcoholic beer, I think, from an alcoholic beer. This one's a little bit, although it definitely doesn't taste like a Belgian beer in that alcoholic sense, but it does taste like a non-alcoholic Belgian beer. It's quite good. It's very multi, quite sweet. Not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but it is. I'd say it's slightly fruity. I probably shouldn't be drinking it from the bottle, but hey. Yeah, that's really nice actually. If you're looking for a non-alcoholic Belgian beer, that's worth a go. I think it's made by triple, but spelt T-R-I-P-E-L. Very good. What have you got? Well, today, Jeff, I have a bottle of cider that has been made by my friend. Okay. And this is a friend, I'll give him a mention. He's called Rob. I think you've met Rob once or twice. Rob lives down the road. I can hear a child, but we should explain why we can hear children. Well, it'd be one of my neighbours, I expect. It's Jeff's neighbours. The background noise of children is not officially part of it. Good thing is I can't hear them because I've got headphones on, but everybody else can. So my friend Rob has made me. His lockdown project has become cider making, so he's got into his homemade sizes. And he's made me a couple, and this is one that he dropped on my doorstep the other day. You can ignore the bottle because the bottle is just in a spare bottle, but he hasn't named it or anything, but he's mixed it with flavourings. So it's apple juice, which he's brewed. I'll let you see this on camera. I haven't opened this yet, I don't know what it's going to be like. But it's supposed to be, he's described it as apple pie cider. Okay. So he's put a bit of pastry in there, is he? No, no pastry. But if I give it a smell, it smells like cinnamon in it. And I think there's a bit of nutmeg. Basically, I think he infused a few spices and herbs into it. I'll just give it a taste. What's nice? He probably doesn't taste too much of it, but certainly you can smell it. You've got a bit of a Christmassy smell to it. You haven't put any ice with this one? No, I just had it straight. It's a bit cloudy, but there's no sediment in it. It's probably quite strong. He didn't tell me the strength of it, but he hasn't named it, but perhaps we can try and come up with a name for it. Yeah, but kind of an apple pie cider, I suppose. There you go. There's cinnamon, a bit of nutmeg in there. Apple pie. Yeah, so that's good. Tastes like a dessert. And then that's quite a pop of it. It's very sweet for me. Cheers, Rob. Yeah, thank you, Rob. If he ever goes into, gives up his job and goes into cider making, I'm sure that will be one of his creations. So what's been going on, mate? It's been going on. Yeah, I'm missing, I want a holiday, but I'm not going to book. I'm not going to be one of these people that's rushing into booking a holiday. The sensing that might happen, aren't they? I think even now, accommodation websites, the traffic's going through the roof, isn't it, given that the fact we're a week away from lockdown easing. I'm not going to say lockdown ending because I don't think it's ending completely. It's not back to normal, is it? No. I think it's the biggest, the UK is about to see the biggest shift in or the biggest easing of lockdown conditions on the 4th of July that we've seen for a while. Yeah, I think we will maybe have a couple of weekends, a couple of weekends, a couple of days over a weekend somewhere else. But that would be somewhere that we know, a place owned by someone we know that will let us stay there. That would be our break. We've arranged a house swap with my parents. Oh, yeah. So I'm lucky enough that I've got parents that live in Devon. So we were literally ringing it up saying, do you mind if we come down and perhaps don't want to stay with you, but we'd like you to move out before we stay in your house. But you can come and stay in our house. And luckily my parents are quite accommodating like that. So they're coming to stay here and we're going to stay there, join the summer holidays when the kids are off. And then we've booked a week, that's one week. And we've booked, we've done the opposite to you. We've booked a week in Pembrokeshire for the summer holidays to try and just to see a different set of four walls. So we've booked the cottage out there. Good for you. The isolation in a different, completely different place. Just to do more of the same thing. But no, it should be fun. Yeah, so there we are. It's, you know, I do sense a change. So we're closing the social distance in this week, aren't we? Because pubs are going to open. People are going to be doing more things. People have more freedom. They won't necessarily want to be stuck on a screen with us on a Friday evening anymore. So rather than get to the point where just we're there on our own, looking a bit sad and lonely, we thought we'll stop it while it's still going strong. And we're going to have a bit of a blowout this week, aren't we? Just to celebrate this. Yeah, we'll have a bit of an end of season party. And it seemed to have, didn't it? It seemed like the most logical time. Not a logical but not the only time. But it seemed like a natural point to change, hopefully, to go back to a something called a real pub where we can sit in a real beer garden and drink from a real pipe blast. It has been nice, hasn't it? I mean, a couple of, quite a few of our regulars actually said that they're going to miss it. And it's nice. It's been nice. We've got to know people from all over the world. Yeah, I think we've developed, you know, proper kind of friendships and relationships, you know, that, I mean, it's probably, I don't know how many we've done, but I'm imagining it's like 12 or 10 to 12 of them that we've done. And yeah, we've seen a lot of the same faces. And I feel, we said before, I think, just after the war on the finish, that I feel comfortable to actually go out for a real drink with some of these people now. But you know, if you've broken the ice, it wouldn't feel strange, wouldn't feel odd to be in a pub with some of those people. So thank you to those regulars that did come every week, or certainly a lot of those weeks. It's been good for our sanity, or certainly my sanity. Yeah, that's good. And the other thing we've got going on is our challenge. Yes, we've got some more videos to review. Yes, have you had a look at them? I have. I was just looking through the order. Stuck within the rules, referee? Um, I think it was only one I saw that had like, maybe a one second, it was literally on the, but it was like, like a, the clothes, the edit clothes, it wasn't, it wasn't particularly part of the video. So I'm going to be more lenient this week. I'm feeling in a good mood. I'm not going to penalize anyone in particular for a, for bad time keeping this time around. And no other breaches? Um, no, I think the task was a lot more, well, a lot more, I'm going to say straightforward, but there was less potential to slip up, I think on this one. Okay. Or we should probably explain what the challenge was, should we? Yeah. So they were contestants this week, well, last week, were challenged to find their most valuable item and to describe in 60 seconds or less, why that item was so particularly valuable to them. And we had a, a range of different items, didn't we? Yeah. And it was, um, there was some that I expected and we'll go through these now, but there was some that I didn't expect. And there's some that, um, I think for me personally, resonated in different ways, which I think there was a nice mix, there was a nice mix to those. Where should we start then? Well, what we normally do, Jeff, is we normally go in reverse order of submissions. So the, the one at the bottom, the kind of first entry we had, I think was Vikas. Okay. I think we'll start with him first. Okay. The most valuable thing that I have is just office diary. Each time I start a project, I start with this diary. It was, uh, it was kind of a diary of sorts, wasn't it? Like, uh, his, his work notebook in effect. Yes. And he, he basically captured, we didn't see the insides of it, but he was, he was telling us that all the things that he's captured about the projects that he's been on in the past, risks that have come up, um, decisions that were made, yeah, who was on it, whatever challenges were, all the deliveries and things like that. Um, and he was saying, it was valuable to him because it helped him avoid making the same mistakes twice. And he was able to find patterns across projects and teams. So there was, he was seeing that certain risks tend to pop up quite frequently, uh, which, which allows him to, you know, learn from that and make sense of, make sense of things, I suppose. I was worried about the knife. Yes. For those of you that weren't, couldn't see and could only listen. Instead of a pen or a pointer, he was using quite a hefty blade to, uh, to indicate what was in his book. And there was obviously no, he made no mention of the said knife until the very last moment when a bit of a punchline was, oh, he should have been using a pen instead of the knife. But that's, that's, I'd like to say now that's typical Vikas. That's, that's kind of it. That's how he tends to send these videos in. Okay. All right. Any thoughts on that one? Um, well again, I think it was a nice, it was a, um, I think the value there is obviously in memories and kind of, um, there's value to Vikas certainly was, was the past and experience. Yeah. It reminded him of his experiences and those. So maybe the value in itself was that was more abstract. The, the, the, the book or the diary get the value was in, perhaps what was, what was the words were about rather than the words themselves. So it's kind of like a, it was a, a key to a, a memory or a key to a valuable experience. I saw his data. So I did say it was memories. Um, but one thing I liked about it, and I'm guilty of this is I don't capture enough stuff. So I rely on my memory, which isn't great all the time. Whereas he's written it down. And he's got the data that he can access. And I think that's, that's a really useful thing in terms of helping make sense of complex and complicated things. You can actually look at and join dots and make patterns and make connections and see cause and effect and so on. And it's, well, it isn't completely subjective because it's, it's still his perspective at that point in time. It is a lot more objective than his memory. So I thought that was a really good thing. I've got some, you can just about see them here. I've got my own versions of these. And you know, these are from, from my past engagements, which, you know, if I read through, they would, they would help me. But I don't read through them enough. So are they random? Are they not random words, but are they mind your kind of sound bites from something you've done or diary entries or how, what form do they take in for you? Yeah, they would be scribbles. So I don't suppose anybody else would be able to make sense of them. Scribbles or doodles from things like coaching sessions or workshops, maybe, you know, plans for workshops or retrospectives that I've been part of in the past, people that I've been coaching, you know, their progress every time and things like that, my thoughts. Also, my supervision notes will be in there as well. So when, when I'm getting coaching supervision, my, my development stuff, but I don't see what, well, I thought what was good there from Vik as his point of view is he actually does look through that stuff. And it's not just written off and never looked at again. Yeah. I'm just making some notes here for later on. Never to be looked at again. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good stuff. So you will come to the scores later. Next one on my list here is Stefan. Okay, Stefan. So we'll play a quick clip of Stefan. So this is my most valuable item. It's a certificate by ESA, so European Space Agency, recognising my work on the Lisa Passfiner project. So he opened, he said it's only a piece of paper. But it was what that, that piece of paper meant for him. It was, it was a token, wasn't it? What did you get from it? So this is value in, I'm going to say recognition, kind of value. So it's a bit different to Vikash where I think the value was in memories or as you said data, but this was about, this is a different type of value. This is about value for being, gaining value from being recognised and being, and he mentioned the word pride. He says, I get, every time I look at it, I get an enormous sense of pride about what I, what I achieved. So value in achievement, value in self, self value. Did you get the same impression as me here? Because you didn't spell it out for me, but it sounded like it was almost like a voluntary extracurricular project that he took part in. It wasn't his job as such. He wouldn't explicitly say that. I could see how that could be the case. But certainly from Stefan's previous videos we've seen, he's obviously got a keen interest in academia and kind of, certainly sciences and he was in his previous videos, he talked a lot about the brain and neurology and things like that. So he's obviously a very clever man. That's certainly testament, if that is the case, voluntary or not. It's obviously, it's a European space station. I got that impression that it wasn't part of his job. He was working with people that he didn't know and it was research and it was the unknown and contributing to something voluntarily and that sense of purpose shone through. The fact that it was just a piece of paper, as he said, it's just a piece of paper. But that probably meant more to him than any kind of monetary or financial reward that he would have been offered there. And in cases like that where you're actually following something that you're really interested in and you're passionate about, sometimes a monetary reward can actually reduce the value that you get from it in a strange way. So it's like that symbol. But again, so on this, is the value the piece of paper or is the value the link that the paper provides to what was valuable, which is the experience. You talked a lot about the group dynamic that you had, the sense of achievement, bleeding edge, kind of technology. If it was, I don't know, maybe not a certificate, but maybe it was a, you know, a desk, a place mat, something, a screwdriver, these odd things I've got on my desk, but it doesn't have to be a piece of paper. It could have been something that's seemingly innocuous. But that was on the desk or that was in the lab or it's the trigger. It's an anchor. No, I think that's a, yeah, that's a fair point. I think it's, and as a referee, you're right to make that point. The item itself isn't so much what's valuable. It's the reminder, the trigger of the memory and the feeling of pride that is valuable to him. Because if that piece of paper disappeared, he would still be able to conjure up that feeling, those memories. Okay, that's that point referee. Let's make some more notes there, Jeff, for our debrief later. Okay, all right. So who's next? Next on my list is Mike. Mike. Okay, so we'll play a short clip of Mike. So I want to talk about my most valued object. That's an implant into my spine. About 20 years ago, I had a spinal injury and it was really bad. And that's a very different, different item. Yes, probably the most different of all of the entries, I would say, from memory. And, yeah, very much. So it wasn't actually you couldn't, he wasn't holding the object because the object was part of him, right? But there was an image of what the object looks like. If you haven't seen the video, if you didn't get the full just a bit from the video, it's a, Mike talked about a spinal injury he had. And he had an operation to, I assume it was to insert what looked like a plastic or kind of a prosthetic piece of his spine or extension to his spine, wherever it might have been. I'm not going to absorb the details, but it's basically got him around a lot of spinal pain that's been happening for a long time. So that's an emotional kind of value, Rich. That would be very difficult for us to put a value on ourselves because we haven't experienced that. That's pain. There's value in an absence of pain for him. Well, I think, yeah, I mean, I've had a, compared to Mike, nothing on the scale, but I have had issues with my back over the years. And I know just that you've had cracked ribs and things. And once you're in, if you've got any kind of physical pain going on, that limits your ability to, to value almost anything else, doesn't it? It limits your ability to even value the act of breathing that'll end up in anything else. And so to have that, have that pain removed by an item, a thing, you can imagine how much that means to him and all of the people he interacts with. Everybody else benefits from that as well. Because when I'm in pain, I'm not a great person to be around. I don't take pain very well. So, yeah, I think that was a really interesting choice. Yeah, it's something that if you're comparing it, it's not so much a token, it is an actual thing. Because if we took away that piece of paper, Stefan could still have the good feelings. If you took away that item, you might would struggle. But it's, it's not visible. It's, it's now in itself. It may well only if you look at financial cost or something, the actual physical item itself might have been incredibly cheap to manufacture. Yeah, probably not very expensive. Probably wasn't cheap to have the operation. But yeah, that's certainly the expertise involved in, in the operation, the, the procedure, I can imagine. Yeah, there's, but it's, for me, it had, again, it's, it's interesting, isn't how value can have, can generate all that, this type of attachment, if you like. There's, that generated just a way that Mike told the story. And I've written down here the link to previous, and when we talked about telling stories and previous challenges, I was really hooked in by his story behind that item. And, you know, mainly because he talked a lot about the pain he was in the, his, his day to day. And that was, it made it very real, very, and then I could, I could see and understand the value better because it was more real. Well, I think anybody, anybody can, it's personalizable to everyone, isn't it? Pain. Everyone knows what pain is like. And everyone wants to avoid pain, and knows what it's like to have that pain resolved. So, yeah, everyone can empathize and put themselves in that position to a degree, even if they can't imagine the amount of pain that mine was in. So, and that's, that's one of the, the aims of the story, isn't it, to make it personalizable. So, yeah, we, we, we're all, we're all connected with that. We could all see how, if we were in that situation, how that thing would have value to us, even if it doesn't have objective value to us right now. Yeah. Okay. Good, good, good. Moving on. Who's next? Greg. Greg. Okay. Here's Greg's video of what his most valuable item is. My favorite object is a badminton record. You may ask, why a badminton record? Well, I used to play badminton to win. I don't as much anymore. I, I, I play it for all the things that I can get from badminton. So. So, yeah, the, the idea, he's, he's obviously a big badminton fan. It's come up before in conversation. And I like the way that he tried to link used the metaphor of the game to the metaphor of, of an agile team, that kind of thing. And actually that, that racket itself is probably only worth a few dollars, isn't it? But it's what it means to him. Yeah. So it, I'm sure as well as the piece of paper and Stefan's wall, if you took it away, he could get another one. And he could still remember playing badminton. So it's not that valuable in itself, but I'm sure given the choice of that racket or any other racket, he would like his racket. There was a thing about golf clubs, isn't there? People, there was a study done where people were given some golf clubs to play with that they said had been used by Tiger Woods. And they played, they played materially better believing they were playing with Tiger Woods' golf clubs, even though they weren't Tiger Woods' golf clubs, they believed they were, they believed they were better, they played better. And that's that sense of, of luck and belief and superstition and stuff. And that, while that can have a positive effect, it can have a negative effect as well. We can, we can hang on to things more than we should, longer than we should. We can hang on to beliefs longer than we should, habits longer than we should. Yeah, what do you think? Yeah, I think it would have been, I was hoping when he said, when he showed the racket, I was hoping there was more of a story behind the racket itself that maybe there was, it was tied to a particular game or a particular memory he had or something like that. But again, so there was an interesting link to H.R. generally. But I think the most important thing that for me that he talks about was this idea of fun. And there's no shame in just saying, this, this for me is what I value is, is having fun and enjoying exercise with other people, the social element to it. So, yeah, I think it was, yeah, had it been a different, I got this guy didn't get the sense it could have been any racket. I didn't, you know, I wanted to know, was there more of something that he, that was a racket he'd had for how many years or five years, 10 years. And even though he's restrung it a hundred times, it's still, that triggers broom idea. Yeah. He prodded me nothing to you. No. Only false noses. No. Yeah. So, yeah, very good. Okay. All right. Who's next? Jax. Jax. Okay. Here's Jax's little video of what he found to be his much valuable item. Walking boots are the most valuable thing I have. Yes, they're old. They're battered. No longer waterproof. But they're my friends. So, back to his mountaineering again. Yeah. I think I have a pair of those boots. I was going to say, because you told stories about your shoes that have been to five continents or something like that. Yes. And I immediately thought of your boots when you, when he's doing Jax started telling his story. So, they, yeah, they, the ones that Jax was talking about there, they are, I think the same type of boot that I wore when I went on the Bear Grylls experience, which are a different pair of boots to the ones that I've worn on five continents. Oh, okay. But, but yeah, I can, I can see how a boot, an item of clothing can bring back memories. And given your point about telling stories, he, he managed to get a better story telling in there, didn't he? Yeah. And so, yeah, it's not so much the shoe itself. As he said, it's not waterproof anymore. So, it's probably not actually a valuable item in its own right. Yes. Is there a sense then that maybe you can get too attached to something from a sentimental reason when actually you'd be better in being your interests to actually buy a different pair and get rid of that. You don't need the item to have the memory. Yeah. And that, that idea of we, we don't know, we can't benefit from what we don't know. So it's, you know, this idea of comfortable mediocrity, I'll stick with the boots that I've got, because I know that they're okay. Yeah. But I don't really know how good a new pair could be because I'm too, I'm too attached to the, to what I've got now. And that's the same in, in many cases, even processes wise, let's stick with what we know now, because they might, yeah, it's easier to, to fail with something we know or to stick with something we know, then try something new that they don't know, that we don't know. They might not work, but it might be better. So who's next? So, yeah, let's go with Anshil. Okay, here is Anshil's video. My most valuable item at this point in my life is this book right here. It's, it's got some nice graphics to look into the paper smells nice. And it just feels nice in my hands. So it's similar to Vikas, isn't it? It's similar to valuing a reference, a guide to how he's worked. And it's obviously he's, it's probably devalued in the sense that it's not a new book anymore. Yeah. So if you didn't see the video is, I think it was Craig Lyman, the Bass Borders book, large, she's the one that's called tonight. It was about less, wasn't it? It was, it was about a large, it was about a large autograph, did? Yeah. So you can, obviously it had a lot of feathered edges, it had a lot of post-its in it, which she's added to his own notes. But again, he's obviously, there's a lot more value in that book now because he's of the stories of the, of the implementations he's gone through, the, perhaps the mistakes he's made, things he's tried, the things that he hasn't tried. So it was very much that he took value from this guide, this book as a, as probably also a memory of, there's a bit of achievement in there. Yeah. So similar to Stefan that there's a sense of this, the stuff that worked and obviously he got a lot of, he got a lot of maybe some recognition for that. There's a theme of recognition for maybe things that have worked very well. Yeah. Maybe the things that haven't worked very well. Yeah, I do like the fact that, there's a Japanese phrase isn't it, when you buy books and just let them pile up, never read them. I don't, I like it when people actually, not just read the book, but actually use it. Yeah. And reuse it, regardless of what it is. I like the fact that he hasn't just bought it, read a bit of it, put it on the shelf, but he's, you know, scribbled and it's got his stories in there. I find it hard to understand because I find it very difficult to find enough space in an actual textbook to write what I want. Okay. You can put post notes in there and things, but, but yeah, his learnings in there, his memories in there. There is a risk of following a book too much. I'm not suggesting that Angela's done this, but taking a framework, a methodology, there is a risk that you can follow the textbook too much. And, you know, life is more than, it's always more complicated than any textbook will make out. But I guess that's where, that's what all his scribbles and all of his things have done. They've added the context. They've added the, you know, the, the, the fill in the gaps or explain the gray. Good. Good. Yeah, very good. So just Faye this week because Rob was out town. So Rob has had the opportunity to go and see some family or take some family time. Good luck to him. And so it was just Faye. Here is Faye. This is my most valuable object. About eight years ago, I was coaching some teams inside a state agency here in Ohio, and I was with them about nine or 10 months and then went to a different client. And about a year later, I ran into several of the team members at our local agility conference. And they wanted me to have this and they wanted to tell me about all the ways that he had continued to improve after I left. So I think they must have made it a little bit easier for just one of them rather than having something that they both. Yeah. So that's probably a happy accident that Rob was out of town this week. But I, is it just me? I couldn't, I apologize to Faye. I couldn't really see. No, I couldn't see what it was either. I couldn't see. And I don't think she actually explained it. Did she? What the item was that she was holding? No, it was something that was given to her. And I was kind of making assumptions in my mind of what it might be, whether it was a, you know, a building pass, but it looked too big for that. Was it a greetings card, but it was too small for that? I wasn't quite sure what it was. But in a way, it doesn't matter. Because it was just a token. Just like the piece of paper on the wall didn't matter what it was for Stefan, although it was something specific, but it didn't have to be. So yeah, a token of appreciation, success, you know, good story. It's quite hard to know whether you've been successful as a coach. You know, at that moment in time, you know, it's usually some way down the line before you get a feeling of whether something has actually worked or not. Whether you, and so she said, yeah, agility didn't die when the coaches left. You're never going to know until later on, are you? So I think there's also, we can talk a bit more about this as well, but we tend to about attach value to things that we've been given. So, so you think about presents or gifts. And again, they could be relatively meaning they're kind of low monetary value. But the fact is that so again, so things that my kids have given me that pictures, I'll show you a picture now. Um, but reaching up to the wall, things like that, right? Oh, so you can draw them by a three-year-old. But it says to dad, I love you forever. And it's just a picture of my daughter that she's drawn of herself. And it's things like that that has, you know, you can't sell that on eBay. You can't, you can't put that in an art gallery. But those are things which because they're given to me and they're personal. There's an attachment, isn't there? We place value on personal gifts that we receive. And I think that I got, I got, and again, I got the impression there was an agile theme to the, to the reason she was given a gift. But I seem to attack, I seem to remember, I went away from that thinking that Fay was attached to it because she was, it was given to her as something that maybe I don't thank you as a, as a parting gift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was definitely that. And so I'm projecting my own views on this, but so I find it difficult when you're, when you're really coaching, it's very difficult to know you don't get that direct knowledge or feedback about good job, bad job, because it's not a case of something's done and you can see the, the points on the board or whatever it's, it's usually, it's usually quite a lag effect. And especially if you're not part of that organization quite often, you don't see the results until you've actually left the organization a lot of the time. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's difficult role in that regard. So that I can see why that would, that would add value, a bit of validation. And, you know, we need feedback to know whether we are getting better or how to get better. And with that lag in place, it's, it can be quite difficult. And that, so that's an interesting point because also we can, value doesn't have to be, this is a bit harder to, to explain and to, to think about, but value doesn't have to be physical. Value be good, valuable could be something that's, that was said to you. So it could be something that you remember that was said. It could be something that was written down. So like a testimony, I think we've read out, so in Sprint Review, reading out testimonials from customers are things that you don't, you know, they seem quite trivial, very easy, very cheap to get, but the value that they carry with, in terms of motivational value within teams, in terms of building empathy. So it might not be something you can hold, or that you can, you can sell on eBay, but it might be something that that's the difference, that's the essence of what it's going to motivate you or sprung to, or your right obviously, we put them into a bit of a corner by requiring them to come up with their most valuable object, but the idea of, and actually if we think about that, then I think quite a few of them were actually forced into finding an object to represent a feeling. But what none of them did was, I think in every case, you wouldn't have put any of those value, the value of those items, monetary value greater than a hundred dollars. It's quite hard to tell, but the actual, it's interesting that none, despite, we gave a general brief, but no one should choose expensive, that's the key word, no one shows anything expensive. So that's sometimes the things that have the most value don't have to be the most expensive things. Yeah, yeah, and values are a multifaceted thing, isn't it? It's rarely just one aspect to value. I'm not just talking about a product backlog here, but there's usually an opportunity cost to something. So there's the value in the data in Vikas's book. If he lost that, he's lost the data. But he's also lost, I presume, I'm guessing, yeah, I may want, just for someone who's that fastidious about capturing data, I imagine he's probably got more than one book filed away somewhere. So there's the, there's the set, there's the collection, there's the, you know, it's all about. And that's interesting, because similar Vikasian and she was similar, weren't they? Because if, if I've written down here, not just the value of the item, but the value of not having it. So do they, if they lost that book, they wouldn't become bad, bad coaches, they wouldn't become bad sponsors, they wouldn't instantly forget everything. No, right now, I, well, no, they wouldn't, absolutely. But this is actually bringing me on, it's bringing me to some kind of thought process for evaluating them, because it's going to be quite tricky because they're all really good. But I would say that those two, so Vikas and Anshil are probably the most fragile. So if they lost their thing, they've lost it. Because it's gone. It's irreplaceable. Yeah. Whereas if Jack's lost his shoes, he's still got the memory. And he can always go and find the exact same pair of shoes. He's probably got a photograph. He's probably got something else that reminds him of that, and he's still got the memory. Greg has, can go and play badminton again, he can get another, get another racket, and he's still got the feeling of playing. That's true. Yeah. So when there's data, there's obviously, it's harder to replicate that. It's harder to repeat that. So I would say they're the most fragile. Now, would they make them a worse coach? Now, I don't think they would, but it could. And the only reason it could is if they rely on the actual looking up of the data too much, or they place too much of a great attachment on the actual object. And this is where that idea of superstition might be too strong a word. But people can place too much power in an actual object. Say, it's almost like a weakness. If I haven't got it, I can't do it. And you can see that at a very, very young level with kids and their blankets or their cuddly toys or their dummy or something. I can't be happy unless I've got this. I'm not comfortable unless I've got this. Now, I'm not suggesting that either Vickers or Angela are that tall. But if someone places so much value in something irreplaceable like that, then it's a really fragile place to be. The amount of taking this back to kids again, the amount of parents who have said to me over the years, oh, this is absolutely terrible. We've lost Dinky or whatever they called it. You know, someone's favorite doll. They take it everywhere or go to sleep with it or something. Why would you only ever have one as a parent? Why would you buy something that you can't replace? If any of our kids get attached to something, we've always got backups. We did the same thing. Jocelyn had, I think, three of the same bunny because she used to bite and she used to chew the end of the nose and it just ended up smelling. And also, I think she actually did actually, she left on somewhere, day out somewhere, but we had a back. So I would say they were the most fragile, those two. Okay. Is that going to have a bearing on your scores, you think, Jeff? Well, I've got to find some way of separating them because I think they're all really, really good, really good submissions. And I can absolutely empathize with every single one of them. So it is quite hard to split. So I think that may well, may well come into it. So Jack's shoes, Greg Burlington racquet, Stefan, the piece of paper, Faye, some kind of token. Not sure what it was. Those were all for effectively inconsequential objects that reminded them of something important to them and evoked a really powerful feeling that was quite core to who they are and their personal values. So again, I'd probably group those together in that the items themselves weren't necessarily valuable. It was the feeling that those items triggered that were valuable. And I said, because of that, I think they're less fragile and the value will be more resilient. So I would say those four are probably slight. They're going to do slightly better than Vickers financial in my scoring, which leaves Mike. And I think, I think for me, pain is such a fundamental thing. I think if you're in pain, you can't even enjoy the simple things in life. And those around you can't enjoy things. And they, they, they can't help you either. I think that it's, if you, if you want to try and deal with the complex, you've got to have the simple things in place. And so I think that is, yeah, that for me is, is the standout for me. I think that if I could give any one of those people what they've got there, that would be the first person I would give that thing to. That makes sense. Okay. That's a very solid rationale. Are you going to put some numbers behind these? Okay. All right. So we've been going for seven, seven points for Mike. That's sort of the easy one. I think the next group, so Jags, Greg, Stefan and Fay, let's say five points each. And then let's say three points to Vickers financial. Okay, scored done. Okay. So the leaderboard of the moment, Jeff looks like this propping up the table. We have Stefan at the moment with nine points. And we have team USA, Robin Fay with 11, Greg from New Zealand with 12 points and well, joint fourth place with Vickers with 12 points. Then the top three look like this. We have Jags going strong with 13 points. Mike up to second place with his win this week with 15 points, but Anshale still cleaning on the first place at the moment with 17 points. Very good. Very good. I like that one. Yeah, it's good. And what's nice is that it's a nice way to think about the fact that the value is highly subjective. What I say is valuable is might not necessarily be what you think is valuable, but I think it's a valuable point in itself. And sometimes the easiest way to prioritize with a product owner is to say, instead of what they want, what's causing you the most pain at the moment. So you say about pain, pain is a good identifier with what to do next. Where is your pain for you? Where's your users pain? And that might help direct how you prioritize a product backfire. If you try and take it away from the calculation that the algorithm around money, where is pain? Where can we remove pain at the moment? It might be an easier way to identify where to start. Yeah. Yeah. I've talked about different types of motivators in the past, and that works for customers as well as as team members, you know, away from motivators and towards motivators. And the idea of getting away from something that you don't like to be or don't like to have is incredibly powerful. They remove the pain. And it's powerful to a degree. It's generally not as powerful as an attractive alternative future. But you need to get rid of pain before you can really imagine a positive alternative future. And so product owners weigh that up. And people don't buy the service, they don't buy the product, they buy how it makes them feel. They don't buy insurance, they buy peace of mind. That kind of thing. So that's, I think it is really important to bear in mind what is value. And whether that's to do with rewarding people, motivating people, prioritizing things, whatever it is, get into what people appreciate, what people like, what pain people have. And you generally make better decisions, right? Yeah, pretty good. Cool. Nice summary. Thank you very much. I enjoyed that. All right, nice work. Well done, everybody. Well done, contestants. It's still anybody's game, I believe. Very much so. We're going to do six tasks. Yeah, so we're halfway through. Halfway through. Yeah. All right. Cheers, my friend. See you next time.