 and issues too. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech and we're talking today about the extent to which Trump has sabotaged the government and his continuing effort as he indicated early on to deny Joe Biden the power to govern with embedded loyalists, with missing secrets in Mar-a-Lago and what else. So the show today with our esteemed co-host, Tim Apachella, and our esteemed special guests, Stephanie Stoll Dalton and Cynthia Lee Sinclair. Welcome everybody. Morning Jay. Morning. Thank you. So let me, Tim, let me go to you first, not in the primary issue, but the news from the Supreme Court, because it teaches us something about the subject. What happened today? Democracy won. The system at this point has held it's been cobbled together and it's holding. The Supreme Court denied Donald Trump's request regarding the document issue. They denied it. So the DOJ will be able to retain those highly classified secret documents and the special master is not entitled to review them, thus delaying the whole process. Yeah, I think the magic word is delay. It teaches us about Trump trying to delay everything and keep it all in the air and keep it in chaos and then part of his grand strategy. And I think that's a thread for the show. So we're talking today about people he embedded in his government to undermine democracy, undermine the work of the various agencies involved. So let's start again with you, Tim. I mean, what strikes your recollection as to the kinds of things that Trump was doing back in, what, November, December, 2020 and thereafter, and to try to slow things down so that Biden couldn't get his hands around the government and how to be president and all those executive decisions and access to information and so forth? Well, I remember distinctly that the Trump administration was not going to give Joe Biden the briefings and they delayed that. Before the show, we talked about how GSA refused to accept the findings of the election. And so they weren't taking action for a transition from the Trump administration to the new Biden administration. Those put President Biden on a slow footing and I'm sure there was information that he didn't have at his disposal. So it either delayed him from making good decisions or he made decisions without the knowledge of that information and maybe the decisions weren't as good as they ought to have been. Afghanistan comes to mind. Was there any kind of intel reports about Afghanistan that were purposely withheld from Joe Biden and his administration and that came into a cataclysmic decision on how they exited Afghanistan, which as we all know was a disaster. Yeah, only a few months later. What about you, Stephanie? What sticks in your mind about the, what do you want to call it, the imperfect transfer of power at that time? Well, in addition to those activities he was pursuing in the interim today during the committee meeting, we also knew that he issued a direct order to the Pentagon to remove all U.S. soldier presence in Afghanistan and in, we're someplace else I think in Africa. And they were to come out immediately and that was the Pentagon had that challenge as to how they were going to move around that because it would have been even more of a disaster to bring all the troops back home based on that command during his waiting period. So it's just this thoughtless knee jerking and impetuosity impulsiveness that that is how he operated. I was going to say governed, but you know he's not governing. It's thoughtless and he's just seeking actions that he believes were perpetuate his power or show his power. And I find it's completely demoralizing and that we've had to endure this and and that the devastation that it has done to our institutions and to all of the norms. So I'm kind of like without words after seeing you know the revelations of the committee today that you know just continue to build the case for his complete and utter insufficiency for these responsibilities. Now don't forget Germany. He removed most of the American troops from Germany during the last few months of his administration and that's really ironic because had they stayed there it would have been a different calculus for Vladimir Putin and his attack on Ukraine to have American troops in Germany. But we Jake can I follow up with Stephanie on a question here? Yeah please. Stephanie you mentioned that you know Donald Trump was thoughtless as usual impulsive but was it really thoughtless or or was it as the so title suggests sabotage intentional sabotage to make Joe Biden in his administration look bad? What do you think? Oh I think that's very insightful because everything he does looks loosey-goosey on the surface you know and he just has good luck but there's a degree of intellect at work there as to how it's going to be messy and how it is going to it's going to be putting the BBs out you know dumping all the the ball bearings all over the place right so after the after effects I think you're absolutely right anything to make it more difficult for Biden to come in and pick up pick up wherever he needed to. So that that's what's going on and I just my thinking is that the next questions have to do with what what can be done about all of this and can can Humpty Dumpty be put back together again here and and I see that as the biggest challenge and daunting most daunting more daunting than putting Germany back together after World War II. I mean it's really a big mess because of what he has done and whether he's done it as you say intellectually pointed to have these effects or if he's just got some kind of crazy luck or just his destructiveness is the sort of thing that's that completely eviscerates whatever it aims for. So I know I'm a little bit overcome by the effects. I want to go to you on something that that pops up on this you know we have never heard from Trump as to why he stole those documents he's never explained it he's never given a reason for it and so we have we really have to speculate and we speculate that well maybe he wanted to use him as leverage maybe wanted to give him away to our enemies or sell them to our enemies maybe he just wanted to tell some of his guests at Mar-a-Lago what a big boy he was and then he had war plans maybe he was just damping his feet as any seven year old might do that but there's one other thing you know if you if you go to Tim's point about how maybe this was all quite intentional you wonder if this was another part of Trump's effort to sabotage the Biden administration taking away documents many of which were classified at the same time stopping through Emily Murphy in the GSA stopping the transition in money and information in recognition for a month anyway back in the end of 2020 and so why not also take all the documents you know it's hard to replace them if you can replace them at all and you leave your successor with a big headache about trying to figure out what was going on at the highest level of security what do you think Cynthia is that is that a a possibility I think everything was absolutely intentional without any doubt at all and I need to just add one thing to the Afghanistan thing that people constantly leave out of the whole picture he released all of the Taliban prisoners they even the leaders were put back in place so that the Taliban was able to take over in a minute so some of those documents that he had down in Mar-a-Lago could have been you know journaling and documenting the kind of deals that he made or Pompeo made on his behalf with the Taliban so I think everything he was intending to do that he did during that lame-dex duck session was absolutely intent to derail Biden's presidency to make him look bad look at how bad his approval rating just tank after Afghanistan when in reality as Trump you know puts out there oh it never would have happened if I was there yeah nobody would have been able to get out he would have just abandoned the Afghanistan people the Afghani people the same way he abandoned the Kurds and and I believe it was all set up to absolutely make Trump look I mean to make Biden look bad and I think that every document that he took had that intention how can I use this yeah I don't think there's any one thing that we can point to and be firm on right I think there's all of the above to sell them to use them for leverage to use them to you know tank Biden's presidency all of the above and to hide his own guilt let's not forget about all of the nasty horrible underhanded things that he did while he was president those there was some proof of those things most of them he flushed down the toilet but some of them got saved and so I think that that that is also another reason just to cover his own but remember we've heard it's been leaked that he took all of the documents from the Mueller investigation he's got them well I don't know if he still has them but they do know that there are still documents missing and that's an important factor that we need to not ever forget yeah well you know some some of this we have to speculate about and we have to treat it as circumstantial but there's other very direct evidence Tim of people who were saying that he was affirmatively um you know undermining the government in no uncertain terms one of those was Jeffrey Berman who recently who was the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York a Trump a Trump appointee as such who recently wrote a book and has been on the media the book is called Holding the Line very credible guy who says that Trump tried throughout Berman's time as U.S. Attorney to undermine him and to make the Southern District of New York a weapon for Trump's political aspirations consistently and consistently Berman refused and then William Barr approached Berman and tried to get him out of there and Berman refused to get out of there but but in the book and in his public statements Berman has said that he did the same thing with other United States attorneys who succumbed to these demands for a loyal loyalty to Trump and to do Trump's bidding this is very scary because the Department of Justice is supposed to be independent and we have hard evidence that it was not being independent through Barr and through Trump himself so Berman's book you know that's hard copy and we have other hard copy information like to me what happened with the Secret Service on January 6th and the loss of those records there's no good explanation for that and various other agencies that Trump hollowed out I mean the the book and the movie about James Comey and Trump's successful attempts to replace the whole the whole cadre at the FBI was is hard copy so Tim I mean you know sometimes it's circumstantial sometimes it's it's hard copy other other indications of hard copy that you can think of that that you know suggest or prove that that Trump was undermining the government for his own political aspirations but also to undermine Biden oh I think the first thing that comes to mind is just before the November 2020 election the presidential election look at look at Lewis D. Joy from the United States Postal Service did and I'm sure under the instructions and the loyalty to Donald Trump he basically tried to trash every book processing machinery so that would impede the delivery of mail-in ballots remember that that was in the news for a week and a half and why was D. Joy picking literally a month and a half before the election to dismantle all of this equipment that couldn't be remat you know can't be put back together again quickly and in a lot of cases the machinery was trashed and then remember the drop boxes that were being taken from certain rural areas in certain cities of the mail-in drop boxes so that comes to mind immediately but if you really look at you know the step back and take a look at the picture Jay you know it's funny I saw a think tech show that I think it was called Trump Week and it was a dated November 2017 not soon after Trump was been in office and by gosh didn't we just talk about it on that show we're wearing different aloha shirts but we said Trump is taking steps to replace people and replace them with loyalists so we called it dead on that that was his omission isn't that the mission of every fascist autocrat is to take you know try to install those not necessarily dedicated to the mission of their agency but install those people those personnel that are loyal to me the president of the United States and to that only forget your oath of office you're loyal to me Donald Trump and that's what he did and that's what he tried to do with comey so it's it's no surprise that we have several agencies that probably are still infected with those loyalists and how do you root them out I mean I think you have to be very careful because you don't want to be a Joseph McCarthy and say we have a red scare we have you know all our agencies are are are rifled with uh you know Trump loyalists that are working against democracy in the federal government so we have to be very careful about how we proceed about identifying who's actually dragging their feet and trying to throw sand in the gears uh to foil the current administration of Joe Biden not according to the Brumman book there are some U.S. attorneys in the country who were appointed by Trump and who are still there okay are they trying to throw sand in the gears though that's the question maybe they're sleepers Tim this is a big problem you know when it gets to the crunch you call upon the sleepers you call upon your loyalists who may not actually show it or admit it but they're there and they belong to you and I think we have to consider that the sleepers out there in government yeah well let me ask you this how do we avoid becoming like the Joseph McCarthy's of today and you know start not creating a red a red scare but a Trump scare how do we how do we address that if these sleepers as you suggest start to throw sand in the gears of democracy how do we how do we walk that balance that fine line you know by that time I'm sorry to say I think it'd be too late too late okay I mean it's it's person by person agency by agency but it may well be too late I want to wait raise one other point with you and that is um that sometimes during the Trump administration and this goes to the FCC which you and I have talked about many times um Trump had a huge effect on the FCC and I've read a number of articles about this fellow PI PAI who he appointed as the chair of the PUC now twice not there any FCC rather FCC the price not there anymore but the policies that he put in about broadband availability to underprivileged communities are still in there and these articles end with statements like PI created a problem it will take years for us to fix he deprived various communities that Trump didn't like with broadband availability so there's there's an example of not a person who's a sleeper but a policy that's a sleeper and it was put in place by Trump or Trump you know appointee loyalist and it's still there because it's hard to unwind it so it's not only you know these time bombs in terms of people and sleepers it's these time bombs in terms of policies that were intentional and were intentionally hard to unwind yeah this is really interesting and in answer to your question I I think it's hard to unwind them it's going to take years to clean it up but Stephanie you know you mentioned that there's a question as to why any of this is still there and and that raises the question as to whether Joe Biden has done the right thing has done enough to clean house what's your thought about that well I thought my thought about that good question is the current situation we have with him moving on up the road from one judge to another judge that was his appointee so you know you talk about putting these sleepers in well certainly McConnell and the Republicans have made that happen with the judges and so but what what turns it on in other words he went up the road to get this judge that was Trump appointee and of course she's played the game with him done all his bidding to the point of potentially losing any reputation or are having any respect for the work she's doing so when that when that but there are others that haven't done that so you know he's put as you say he's put these sleepers in there certainly through this you know bringing these judges online that have no business and no experience so right there we have you wouldn't be referring to Eileen cannon would you about the gun yeah cannon right that's the one okay so she and what did he have to do to light her off so um then but not all of them do go that way and of course the person Supreme Court didn't today either when they ruled against him but you're right um we have that to deal with but what's the the pushback on on on cannon so it's the 11th circuit right so we're back to depending on the remaining institutions or the the the remaining functioning institutions that will will hold the line on it and also the peer group I mean none of the other judges or people that are interested in that case of cannon have held back on her I mean she's she's just been riddled with criticism so in that case she's coming up against it but I mean your question is so good because there there are hundreds of those out there and not only the judges but and all these other um deep the deep state are in the executive branch they've been branched they've they've uh they've dug in and they have uh you know and they're still there so I don't know that there's anything to do I mean how well what can Joe Biden do are you saying he can't do anything I mean I you know I liken him to the Marquise to Queensbury you know he doesn't want to attack anybody doesn't want to disagree with anybody so he lets them do what they do and that includes agencies it includes uh you know Trump appointees like the joy um and it you know it includes judges like you know Trump would be criticizing uh Eileen Cannon uh should Biden do that um and let me add that in the hour before we had a show uh with a um an Indian an Indian author uh who told us about Modi uh the prime minister that was good things and bad things about Modi but uh what she told us was Modi does fireside chats just like FDR used to do right and and Modi connects with the people not only in India but the Indian diaspora I mean he talks to all Indians on a regular basis one-on-one using radio and TV um and he comments on how things are going we're not getting that uh from Biden we're not we get these one-liners like Henny Youngman remember Henny Youngman but we're not we're not getting some real some real you know um uh communication from Biden could could Biden do better well I think Jay he has been doing that actually I've been delighted that he has come out to talk about what he has done the last week he had a show on what he has done he's come out before the public and and and on national TV so it wasn't called a fireside chat but I think Biden is trying to get something like that done I think the game that the agenda right now is he wants to make sure everybody knows what he's done how much he's done but he also has talked about the issue of democracy and how this is the attempt so I'm saying yes you're right I think yes we need him to do more of that I see him as having done it a couple of times and hope that he's going to keep on going with that I think the plan is for him to do that okay Cynthia your your comments on the same question oh gosh well um I I'd like for him to come out more and I'd like him to be more forceful but I have something more important that goes to the subject matter of today that we're talking about all these leftover plants and people there was an email that was leaked it has been um certified by the NBC and they released it in the news today it was an email sent to Paul abate I'm not sure very abate I'm not sure if I pronounce his name right but DO FBI is his title and in this email I'm just not going to tell you everything but he does say I'm sorry I know how busy you are after all this you know inauguration week blah blah blah but he says this is so important that I had to bother you with it he says right here that uh conversations from January 6 there is at best a sizable percentage of employee population that felt sympathetic to the group that stormed the capital and said it was no different than the BLM protests of last summer several also lamented that the only reason this violent activity is getting more attention is because of political correctness here's a sampling of what happened across multiple field offices I literally had to explain wait wait there we go um to a blue state office the difference between opportunists burning and looting during protests that stemmed from legitimate grievance to police brutality versus an inser in insurgent mob whose purpose was to prevent the execution of democratic processes at the behest of a sitting president okay I was talking to an ASSA in a red state office who was telling me that over 70 percent this is scary 70 percent of his CT squad and roughly 75 percent of the agent population in his office disagreed but could understand disagreed with the violence but could understand where the frustration was coming from and led to the protesters getting carried away an analyst in a purple state described watching horrified as the events were unfolded on the news while several co-workers chalked up the insurgency as a response to everyone being quarantined at home for months and more on edge because so many lost their jobs it was all because of COVID this is an internal memo in I mean an internal email from the FBI trying to really look into how many of these guys are out there that think it's okay what happened that aren't going to really do good investigations and are going to undermine anything that Mayor Garland wants to try and do or Biden wants to do or people that believe in truth and democracy want to do. Tim you know this this all suggests that that Trump's biggest legacy time bomb is the divisiveness in the country the politicization of every issue you can think of and and still happening this was not unintentional in my view but if you look at the insurrection we know enough now to know that this was a huge conspiracy and Trump followers were organizing it arguably he was organizing all of it at the Willard Hotel and otherwise through through his acolytes and I guess the question I and I put to you is is that a time bomb too? Is the call it the hardening of the base of the proud boys and the oath keepers and the people who were there at the insurrection are they part of the Trump time bomb legacy too? Yes in a word you know January 6 was really just the a preamble to what's the potentially coming again and you know I was watching the January 6 hearing committee and they said we're doing this to make sure this doesn't happen again but I I'm thinking that you still have these same people and as Cynthia suggested the rank and file goes deep on Trump loyalists and remember after January 6 the military had to do its house cleaning as best they could to find out the hardcore you know sympathetic proud boys oath keepers in the ranks of the military well that's great for the rank and file. It's not clear that's over that's that's that's my point that is my point and also it's not clear you know they got rid of the rank and file the lower non-commissioned officers how many commission officers were sent packing because of their extreme views and their published views how many I don't think many so you know we we still this is 2022 2024 still remains and this shows at you know very correctly titled sabotage and you know how how do we know those that are embedded in existing agencies and the military and the FBI and the secret service we just don't know if they're still there and they're still I haven't come to their senses that following Donald Trump to whatever means is not a good idea. Yeah wow so Stephanie it goes it really does go beyond fireside chats and communicating with the public and all that and and being a strident in responding to Trump's you know unhinged remarks which we get every day and which I worry about we're getting we will be getting on Twitter when when that that transaction is closed but my question to you Stephanie is what can we do about this I mean I think it's clear from this discussion that it's plenary it's through the government agencies through very important powerful agencies it's through these threats that he has made and is making and his you know his calls for violence and all that it's through these people he has appointed and and he somehow controls them it's through the divisiveness and it's through the fact that up till this point Joe Biden hasn't been able to really clean house for whatever reason what do we do now because these things that we've been talking about the sabotage the time bombs they're a really existential threats to the country and to all of us what do we do well as we watched the committee today we saw Pelosi and McConnell and Schumer and the guy that was shot at the baseball game all of them there gathered in a little huddle calling the governor of Virginia calling the governor of Maryland calling the Pentagon calling Muriel Bowser for the DC police and nobody was sending anybody right in so my question is are we going to get that in place is anybody doing anything about if if if Trump is indicted by garland and as a gift to the nation that we well deserve and then we have this hurrah again have we replaced have we strengthened and hardened as Tim says have we strengthened and hardened our defenses against something like this again um and to see that Covey of our nation's leaders calling out for help because of the people's safety and their concerns about uh people's injuries in life and uh Pelosi talking about she didn't care what it took to clean up all the the kakapu poo all over the place she only cared about getting keeping people safe I was shocked that nobody was coming in it was all uh well we got 150 people getting their uniforms on and they're getting over to the border so this was shocking to me to see our leaders and also not and calling the vice president the vice president they called and he was the only one that did say much about what was going to happen and but of course not the president because he wasn't going to help at all they never even reached out to him only to the vice president and these are our esteemed leaders I mean I was shocked when I saw that today they're not much leaders honestly so Cynthia you know we have two major uh possible indictments okay actually three and to include the one in Georgia okay so we may have an indictment uh out of the the work of the select committee on January 6th um we may have an indictment uh over Mar-a-Lago we may have an indictment with Rappensberger in in Georgia um those three okay I'm asking you about whether those indictments or any of them are going to help us clean house well I would like to hope that it would but I'm afraid that this problem is so much bigger than Donald Trump now all these people that have um you know sitting members of Congress so you have to go against them too you can't just say okay you've already displayed evidence of being a Trump or you're out but the thing that you know we talked about all the different agencies that were called and just like a firehouse they are able to go and fight fires that are in their district but if they're going to go to another district to fight a fire they have to get permission from that district first so whoever was sitting in the cat bird seat controlling all those different agencies like we knew the one guy that came out all the time what was his name uh he was the dc uh national guard and he said he was ready they were all you know suited up and on the line waiting for the approval to go so it was that one person there that was not giving the permission to all these people to be able to come in it's not like they were all sitting on their hands going well what are we going to do they couldn't go until they got that permission so you know let's do some research and find out who was the man in the power for that position okay then Mike Flynn's brother brother yeah thank you took the word right out of my mouth and wasn't that Mike Flynn's brother there was that that and is he gone I don't know I tried to look it up before for today's show I don't think he's in Hawaii is that right that's right he's in Hawaii so he's not even gone he's so is he is he fat is he doing a military position there yes he's in charge of um the sink pack something specific yeah yeah yeah that's scary Tim especially in favor in view of your comment and mine about the the compromise of the american military right which was clear on January 6th and in other ways too where was let me let me move on Cynthia Tim you know really the same question I suppose are any of these indictments or possible indictments going to affect the time bombs the sabotage are they going to clean house or or not and I guess part of that question is are we going to get three indictments out of those three cases you know let me kind of just compare the indictment to if you will you know in a lawsuit punitive damages award what's the purpose of punitive damage awards it's to teach those in the future think twice before you commit this crime an indictment is going to send I hope the same message to any would be despot would be fascist wannabe autocrat wannabe that thinks they can come in and try to usurp the power from a democratic system of governance and that an indictment we may not get a conviction but we're going to get an indictment and I think Merrick Garland is going to get that at least on the Mar-a-Lago document case I'm not sure about what happens with the the Georgia election trying to get to 11,780 votes but I think we get an indictment on the documents and it will send a message to those who are in government now that are Trump loyalists that maybe they should keep their head down and not spark up when they think they have the opportunity or else they may be on the indictment list in the future so I think that's the value of an indictment and I think we're going to get one I think we all we always have to build in the timeframe here we are with three weeks away from election day and a fair chance that both houses will be controlled by republicans and republicans oh we have heads shaking okay well I'm let me put it this way then winning the results of the election winning the relay okay yeah yeah you say are not a naysayer Jay definitely you may have to save me on this so my question is is the result of the elections coming soon you know and the re-seeding of congress if you will on january 1 how does that affect um you know these these time bombs and sabotage points in first well very clearly I mean obviously if your prediction comes true they'll be uh feel more emboldened but they're not going to get the senate right they may get the house but they're not going to get the senate and by the way don't forget the power of veto well the other point is that if they're if we go to psychology if uh we do win and as we're supposed to the democrats um but even if we don't as the power of trump is no longer available it's got to start diminishing and people don't receive any of those goodies or that power base or um you know it starts to dissipate and that that's one hopeful thing about all of these sleepers and everything uh that you mentioned but I think uh the people have got to stand up and vote and if people don't come out and vote in this election and and make it happen to get us back on our feet we are screwed if I can say that on on streaming I mean we are screwed say it again so um that's what I'm I'm ready to reset um uh as to how the election comes out and not get too bothered you know between now and then but I do even but even that the even if they win a house or one of the chambers we've still got the issue of pat that the power and strength and influence of trump is it going to ab after that well just remember if Elon Musk has his way and closes that deal he has said he's going to let trump back on twitter I agree Trump's favorite platform and is an important factor in the calculus here it is very important I I hate it I hate it why did he have to get into this but he's still in trouble on that deal it's not for sure yet okay he'd have to admit that his social platform was a failure he didn't like that idea either yeah well that's true but nevertheless is a failure um okay let's let's go for uh let's go for final comments uh let's start with you Cynthia um uh how how uh how do you feel about the the time bombs the sabotage uh and how they will affect us going forward and what if anything uh anybody can do about it well I think it is imperative that everyone get out and vote like Stephanie said um and even then we have to remember we've got eight battleground states that already have all their election power given to the legislature so we may be in trouble there too right um we I'm like Stephanie too we have to kind of take a breath and sit back as we wait for this next time I feel sort of breathless every day as I wait to find out what's gonna be the outcome you know because it's gonna radically change if we keep the house in the senate we'll be okay but if we lose the house and the senate we're as Stephanie so apropos said yeah we're screwed so I agree with her okay let's move on wait wait wait my last quote my last thing is a quote I shouldn't have said anything without doing my quote this is what I should have just said at the end this is a quote from judge Amy Berman Jackson um high ranking members of congress and state officials who know perfectly well the claim of fraud was and is untrue and that the election was legitimate are so afraid of losing their own power they won't say so it has to be crystal clear that it is not patriotism it is not standing up for America to stand up for one man who knows full well that he lost instead of the constitution he was trying to subvert here here here here okay Stephanie don't tell me to vote I already know that I have to vote give me some profound statement for your closing remark oh wow we've got a long way back let's see yeah we've we've got um we've got to see more people come out in this election than in the last and at that one for the presidential election we've got to have more out so that there's an unassailable uh uh number of votes from for for uh continuing with whatever we're voting on this time around and I'm just so I'm kind of it's so bothering me it's hard to even um express it but anyway that's where I am and if we don't if if America of Americans are not going to take the time and make the effort to be Americans to the core which is to vote then uh we we're going into the dark ages and it's going to be a long route back out I don't know so I wish I had something more profound but I see that that's where we are that's what it is because to come back out with the houses going over to the other side they're going to spend all their time doing absolutely no legislation for the people it's all going to be political payback and political and uh so we're going to continue to to go head down the hill our institute the worst of it while we why we're engaged in this this clench where we we can't do anything the courts are dysfunctional we can't make policy we can't make policy for our role in the world which is another critical issue for us um and so it's it's it doesn't look so good but maybe maybe I have to go to Tim now Stephanie yeah okay just the numbers have to be big the numbers have got to be the biggest ever to avoid any concerns about you know not having enough about lawsuits there'll be lawsuits you know that so so Tim I mean how big do the numbers have to be to avoid the lawsuits is it possible to avoid the lawsuits it depends on how many as the show suggested how many sleepers are waiting to their opportunity to pounce and try to delegitimize a democratic free and fair election but I go to my statement and that is the Department of Justice will determine whether or not that no one is above the law in this country especially a former president and if there are sleepers in various agencies waiting to pounce they will take pause if the former president of the United States Donald Trump is indicted because they will think maybe that could happen to me and maybe it'll give them pause and they will not act against our government and democracy of our government right and the flip side of that before we go is that if he is not indicted there's a message there too absolutely yeah well thank you Tim thank you Cynthia thank you Stephanie very interesting discussion one to watch because it's not over it's still happening thank you so much thank you so much for watching think tech Hawaii if you like what we do please like us and click the subscribe button on youtube and the follow button on vimeo you can also follow us on facebook instagram twitter and linked in and donate to us at think tech hawaii.com mahalo