 Excellent. So we are designing design from trust. We're having a little pop-up call on Tuesday October 9th 2018 and I will read a description of the general topic, which is kind of trust and communication How do you prefer to communicate which aspects of your approach to communicating build trust and which mighty road trust? How do you balance being reliable with being intrusive or perceived as aggressive? How do you compensate how different technologies affect trust meaning you know the fact that on video conferencing my cameras up here But I'm reading some texts down here and you can tell that I'm not looking directly into your eyes right now And humans have you know, we paste a lot of value on eye contact. So that's interesting How do you compensate for that? Lighting on video calls or the fact that some people hate video calls and other people love texting and some people do this and that So it's a practical call that we'll see how we can adapt in all these different ways and part of it came about because Alisa was describing her communication style And I don't do you want to pick it up from there and just sort of take us in Sure. So this was an interesting topic for me because I've been described as an aggressive communicator and I have never heard what that meant to before But it came up because when I received some form of a communication whether it be a call a text Utilizing Cisco spark or slack or whatever mode of communication you may be using I find the need to respond just because it's some you know, it's the right thing to do in my mind and when I think of people when I Something reminds me of them. I also like to share it So I decide which method of communication to use to share that experience with them because they're not there with me at that moment so This topic came up because I was trying to figure out how in fact Discommunication impact one's trust whether it be together or what you're perceived to have And so Jerry, I'll send that back over to you, but that's where it started It's it's interesting because There's so many subtle things about communication, you know timing being a really big one tone approach all those kinds of things and Also, people have different preferences different perceptions different contexts at the moment So all of this is kind of very soft, right? It's all it's all you know, how does it how does it kind of work? I just as an aside I just pasted a link into our chat of a page. I put up some time ago When I started doing more video calls, I put up a page that basically Offers advice to people on video conferencing and Basically do not sit in front of a window or a bright light Get some light on your face leave only like an inch or less over your head A lot of people a lot of people are on video calls like this And and it's like it's a disaster, right? So so leave very treated like a portrait and when you're doing human portraiture You leave like a little little tiny gap above your above your head kind of thing stuff like that and then try to get some good audio because That goes kill etc And then there were a bunch of articles online about this So I'm gonna actually post a brain link to it as well because anybody who's interested can go follow these links for different kinds of advice But I'm interested in like you said that some somebody perceived you as an aggressive communicator Do you know what they meant or do you know which part of what you're doing? They were pointing to? so I Treat the way I'd like to be treated I guess and so I guess that also goes to I communicate the way I'd like to be communicated with And so I like to continue to have conversations And so what's interesting is that is different when you in your work life versus your personal life Versus whatever other type of life. We might be talking about and I guess until recently Personally, I didn't understand why it needs to be different to be honest. I still don't I would probably add to that but I by receiving that feedback it helped me Understand that if I'd like to continue to communicate With different types of individuals. I do have to make sure that I'm thinking about that right and so it's it's still me It's still I'm still going to act the way that I would like to be perceived But it was definitely interesting insightful feedback that I've never received before and this was very recent So it was fresh on my mind. And so I thought it would be a great topic to bring up with you, Jerry Yeah, thank you. And you like I think you're one of your attributes is you're extremely responsive like you receive a message you reply Very quickly And also you're I think maybe Maybe the thing that characterizes that that came out of our conversation earlier more is about follow-up Like you need somebody and something gets said or something happens and you're on it and you you get back to them About the thing and it turns out it turns out I think one of your one of your pieces of sage sage advice is that hey if you just sort of follow-up regularly and consistently Magical things open up like like good things happen just through follow-up, right? Right? Yeah, and that's that's a really interesting Observation that you have because once again, this is all very fresh for me But until recently I didn't realize that that was a skill set Because once again, I like to treat the way I'd like to be treated So it you know, I expect individuals if they say they're gonna do something just do it, right? Or don't say it It's not a big deal if we can't commit to certain course of action Let's just not speak to them because I will take them literal Especially if there's context prior and so to your point. Yes, that's part of my communication And it's really helped me in I would say personally and in my career, it's definitely been a huge driver. I would say to The wonderful relationships that I've been able to build But what's interesting is it can also break trust if if we don't follow it And I've seen that happen also and then I'd say more personally how I feel when Someone does not follow through when they do make a reference that this is what I'm going to accomplish And then they never actually do it or they say they will and then there's no time frame So then I find myself waiting and it's it's part of my to-do list And it's like what am I going to be able to accomplish this because I want to get it done And I want to follow up to it, but I'm waiting on this other, you know I'm this other whatever it might be peace and and it's not there in David Allen's language. It's an open loop in your head Right. He's the getting things done guy and it creates this open loop. That's just sitting there going like All right, all right somewhere sometime. We got to close this loop. All right. Come on. Help me close this loop. Damn it Sitting in the back of my head and you know, unless you like David Allen And you can get it into your system that will remind you of it later on a time, you know On a timed basis, etc, etc part of what he's trying to do Maybe is control or manage or compensate for in some cases the fact that these these many different kinds of communications We're just lying out there because because in many of our roles these days We are holding a ton of communications with a ton of different parties, right? I mean that the variety one of the things I can't stand about modern communications is Every now and then I don't remember if the thing that was important that was agreed to is lying somewhere buried in a LinkedIn message thread which I can't stand or if we did it on WhatsApp or so, you know it's like on Facebook God forbid, you know Facebook Messenger and and For me the email been unfortunately is and this is maybe what makes me old school The email bin is still the thing I look for first when I'm trying to figure out what God said What do we you know what would be agreed to do that kind of thing? But now these messages are just shooting everywhere and Go ahead. Yeah, I was just gonna say that. Oh my god. I really sound bad That's all right. You have a good croak a good croak. Yeah, it's just you're the first people I'm speaking to you this morning, so Well, you're reminding me of also is something that like I used to talk about on our old podcast, which is what I feel like Another issue around trust is that we have so many channels and I don't know what you're you're Whoever I'm communicating with preference is So when you're trying to so flipping it around when you're trying to communicate with someone or start a thread You're like do I start here here here here here? And if you don't get back to me over here, is that mean because that's just not your preferred channel and Where trust comes into it or is it because you're ignoring me or is it because you know And so that's where the breakdown of trust also happens We have so many communications and so many channels and people May just may not have seen it right and you and the breakdown of trust can be that you think that they've seen it And they haven't right so, you know, it used to be we just had email and phone So you kind of knew and then you keep adding these additional layers which keeps adding opportunities to break down trust, right? And or and or behaviors around each one like I have a brother who is Very old school and sort of treats email like memos So therefore if we sent him an email and he's read it, okay Doesn't understand the concept of replying and say, okay. Yes thumbs up He's like, well, why do I need to we've had conversations back? Oh, I need to do that I've read it and there's no action item for me on it. Yeah. Yeah Well, I don't know you friend like it's just a very different and there's so many layers around this in And that's why I love this topic. So yeah, I have a friend that Used to use a blackberry back in the day and still has like a blackberry mentality in a sense So I know never to send more than one topic per email Because because whenever I did like three bullet items each of which was a slightly different thing The first one would get replied to instantaneously like Insta and it was as if the other bullets did not exist and I'm like what what failed here What broke how did that go wrong and it was just and it was their personal style Like they were extremely responsive. They were completely on top of it But somehow weren't reading deep weren't going you know through the whole message So anybody else encountered that, you know what you reminded me is I have an Android and I have friends that have iPhones And so when they're communicating with me and send me some sort of emojis or whatever, you know Whatever that form of emotion is I don't get the same one So I've had instances where that's like an envelope or and at first I didn't realize is because I don't actually get You know, it's a different system. That's a great point. Yeah to your point. You're absolutely right I feel like I'm missing parts of a communication and parts of that emotional piece to it because I don't see it I don't understand what they're trying to say So it's a really funny concept and what you also reminded me of is I've always felt like My struggle is prioritization to your point. I have a lot of things going on. So I Feel pretty comfortable with my organization But not always with am I prioritizing the right pieces in the time that I have during the day But what what I'm finding through this conversation is there also should be a prioritization of methods of communication Because there are so many methods of communication. So, you know, are we prioritizing the right ones and do we know which ones prioritize based on Individuals that we're speaking to because they might have a different prioritization Right that and that's the challenge and that's and that's not something that we present to one another meaning I would love it if you're, you know, public-facing profile said and by the way, I can't stand texting and I love this and Whatever, whatever and you know given given full choice of media. I'd rather go here than there I'd love to know that right get a whole show on this on on tumble vision. Seriously, that's cool Yeah, like well not a whole show, but yeah, this is such a hot topic for me As a matter of fact, I just had lunch with Clive Thompson in New York Oh, and we were talking about this and he's like, you know, you should write it up So like and you know my approach is less like Jerry's sort of design We need to design from trust which is a great way It's just this observational thing because I'm out networking now looking for my next chapter and you you either feel like a stalker or you know, like here's another great example if you have an If your primary mode of communication with someone in more of a social context you know Instagram and That's the only relationship that connection you have even though you've done work together It just feels like a weird crossing of a wrong chasm to like bring, you know, one thing into the other thing It's kind of the old etiquette about you don't talk about work at a cocktail party So it's just we're doing this across channels in ways in much more subtle ways and the etiquette is changing Etiquette is shifting in interesting ways, although we're still kind of humans who communicate like humans But they're the etiquette is shifting a lot I just put a link to in our chat a couple people not many that I know of have written what they call personal user manuals and Basically, it's how to deal with me So so Brad Feld published the one that I just sent link to and he talks about like What are your quirks? What drives you nuts? What qualities do you particularly value in people who work with you? What is the best way to communicate with you? What is the best way to convince you to do something is one of the things he addresses and it's really interesting And I'm when Deb and I first met I was a tech industry analyst And I began to notice when PR firms had prepped their clients coming in to visit me to pitch me Really well because you could tell they were like he likes community He you know wants a little warm-up conversation before him to get to know you Whatever, whatever, but you could sort of tell when the prep was really good, and I appreciate that I mean yeah, yeah instance. It's just this is a very deep topic and the fact that you're making it It would be great if individuals, you know made it obvious, but it's also just the All the ways that we are not building like I said We did a lot of those conversations on tumble vision was less it was you know all the ways that we're not Paying attention to the signals that need to be Addressed in this tools that we're designing And the tool designers don't seem to be that clever about a lot of this stuff Like somebody somebody's not talking enough to the tool designers about some of these subtleties It looks like you're gonna say something no No, I was just also thinking at what point do you start mimicking the way you're communicated because I'm actually making an Observation to our call today some of us to have our cameras on right now some of us did so at one point We all felt the need to turn them on and I've even been thinking Deb to your point around the Instagram piece I just got Instagram, and I have so many Relationships that prefer Instagram, and it's so odd for me, and I'm starting to find myself Communicate more through it to and sometimes start a conversation there versus through a text Which is actually my preferred method of communication. It's just it's just so interesting to notice that Jerry's point what happens when you start there and And then it gets and then you all say like how many times have you guys said what pick a pick a channel Can we move this over? There whatever that is and then the there gets dropped or you know some of this I also wonder if it's it's The instant gratification not gratification, but the instant communication World that we live in like we're all so we're all very lifo like you know the last thing in you know is like So there's and then again with the the layer that I always put on top of it is The on the person on the receiving end of the communication and how they perceive it like the fact that you were called aggressive you know the also is Reflects Can be reflected by how you're emotionally feeling that day Right. I'm being ignored or is the person just busy and then we reach a point where if you try to contact that person through 10 different channels Are you a stalker or are you just very passionate? That's right in touch with that like I've reached stock I've read what I consider stalker status So, you know, but really the person, you know a lot of it is timing and catching them So there's all these unwritten things. We're not talking about and yeah Completely agree and I just was watching Jerry what you posted around cultural aspect So now I'm like thinking about that cultural aspect because I was raised to be very direct and and to your point Dad, maybe that directness is perceived as aggressive and I have been before perceived as very direct And so it's kind of has a parallel and in this case potentially But it's just interesting because this is a very new Reflection for me versus I started thinking back to well all of my personal communications We're always talking back and forth, but this was a newer. This was a newer relationship So did they not perceive it to be that positive direct piece? And I remember sharing it with someone that was also a newer contact and they loved it Like when I said I'm like, well, this is something new for me But I was called an aggressive like oh, that's amazing. I was like really So it's just it's so interesting how you know that perception changes and that cultural shift can impact it too And also it's not like this didn't exist before right? It's just that it's just that we have all these additional channels that highlight it more, you know You can be the you know the direct New York and also the fact that you're texting versus having a motion you know this exists face-to-face as well, but you lose the Sorry, I have a pet that's eating my glasses You know you loot you come across more directly aggressive in a text without any motion right and and then there's the lack of effect in texting and the ease with which we pick up Or infer falsely what's going on and then there's also imprecise communications like when somebody sends me a note That says let's let's talk at seven. Ah, could you just say which time zone and which day? Just repeated for me. So I know that we mean what we think we mean Yes, exactly Over and over and form a tiny bit. So we're so we're agreed Which also reminds me of the fact that it's changed now, but I've been I've been in California for 14 years and I have a 917 cell phone and When I first moved here, I would get phone calls at like 4 a.m. You know cuz people did you know, there's assumptions people made about Um Area codes and things like that which doesn't exist as much anymore, but it's interesting. Yeah Yeah, my area code is still four and five because that's where I got my phone and People think I live in Marin because I bought the phone in the store in Marin, right? Not so much. That's a whole different level of of design issues that you know for You know the the lack of Physicality in what that means. Yeah, exactly Sorry blue wanted to say hello to you Jerry, so I let her thank you. Thank you. That's really nice to see her Boys even on zoom, you know, I was thinking move between speaker view and gallery view and The call feels very different, right? And I've done so many zooms at this point, right? And so yep ends up feeling more like if you're in speaker view It's more like and you know if I'm speaking now I'm taking up your whole screen that I am you know in front of a room Pontificating whereas if we're in Brady Bunch mode feels more like we're all here together. Yeah, and one one thing I do a lot zoom is kind of eating my communications at least this year This is kind of the year of zoom which is pretty interesting I was I was a big fan of hangouts But hangouts kept hiccuping and kept causing problems and you weren't quite sure where to send people or what to do Yeah, so you so again Google not paying that much attention to their communication soft workers to their to their social communication Well, and now deprecating g plus did you just not good at it? Yeah, which is so too bad I mean, it's really so too bad. I'm an Android phone user like Lisa is and the Google hangouts app I have to constantly crash it and reboot it because I think I sent a text, but it's it hangs at sending. I'm like really Um, doesn't doesn't Google think it's an important app No, it's not an AdSense link. It's not as important. Yeah So it's interesting because we're all four have our videos lit up now and part of that maybe Maybe related to the fact that I've turned on the recording button So we may be sort of more aware that in leaving a record Yes, a record of a video call looks a lot better if all the people's faces were present that that really does help Because when you see a video and it's like how you know, half or more of the faces are just icons. That's very different So that might have played a tiny role in it. Who knows but but you know It's hard to pry inside each of our heads and figure out all all the different micro decisions we're making As we sort of we're not even aware of exactly exactly one one thing one thing I wanted to bring up was sort of interruptions and both in person and in technology And interruptions also has this side channel thing because as some of you were talking I was typing things into the side channel and vice versa And I'm wondering whether some people perceive a slightly different topic Pursued on the side channel on the chat as being an interruption like hey, I'm talking about whatever attention should be on my topic But when I do it on the side band I'm trying to offer some color commentary on who just spoke. Yeah, Dave Um I'm trying to sort of you know offer some something we should talk about in the future of this conversation or whatever As we go forward, uh, Dave. We're talking about trust in communications I think you if you if you saw the the email I sent it's kind of that topic And and I dropped into the wrong call. So I'm gonna pop off and I may try to come back Oh, okay. Sounds great. Good to see you though I think it's fine Um, then there's that then there's not exactly exactly Um, but on interruptions There's the huge gender issue of men interrupting women all the time Uh, then there's just some people just tend to interrupt like male or female. They just have a They they they know what they they know how to complete the other person's sentence And so they're just going to do that, right? I just get concerned I'll forget You know, like I'm like if I don't say it right now or if I don't write it down I'm not going to remember what I was about to say and I really want this person To hear it right because I'm emotionally invested in this conversation. So On that note, I had this thing where and you've probably heard this year I've given an ignite talk comparing both coasts And one of the things I've always said was interruption In new york is a side of passionate agreement And on the west coast, I mean, this is overly cliche, right? Like you could say tokyo versus israel and in other cultures. It's rude like What and that's what you're saying at least like i'm jumping in because yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes And I've had to learn I know in this group. I don't have to as much but to really temper that um and To proceed to even perceive what what i'm doing to others and that breaks completely if we're not all you know The the the not why am I forgetting this word in my senior moment the nonverbal communication that That there's a word for it It's the nodding. It's I've given a look. Yeah, I know the affect the There's another word now I will pull up a thing and I'll find it. All right. All right. That's the stuff we miss when we don't all have the Video on or we have a mixed version of it, you know So my adaptation my adaptation to the interruption problem Because I know that I probably used to interrupt a lot more than I probably still do And i'm sure I still do But my adaptation has been when I used to take notes on paper I always used to have a little square rolled pad in front of me on the right margin And the right side of it would be the things that I wanted to bring into the conversation I would just keep a list and and when people say stuff it triggers a lot of things for me So I write them all down and in some cases let's say it's a briefing from a little tech company or whatever a startup I could probably go through the whole list and I would go through it really quickly and then I would say which of these is interesting to you I'll tell you more In some cases you look back on the list and you realize shouldn't you know Don't need to add any of these things because not appropriate or whatever whatever Now I take notes generally in evernote. That's my made sort of note-taker during meetings And so for most calls I'll have a note-taking portion and then under it I'll have me colon and then under that I'll have things that I want to mention in the conversation And then really often at the end of the conversation what I do is I copy paste the me into an email and that's my follow-up So I you know, gosh, I want to mention this article by Stephen Berlin Johnson And so then I I mentioned it in in in the conversation But then I want to send the link afterwards so it kind of makes that a little bit a little bit easier for me And this goes back a little bit at least it to follow-ups And how that works and I'm not I'm not the best follower upper. I'm not the best Executor on everything. It's one of the things I always have to work on for me In particular because I'm involved in too many things at the same time And I have two arms not eight, which is a regret. I have I should have been born an octopus Um or cloned or cloned cloned would be fine Cloned would be fine. I mean if if they're if they're willing to take direction I mean if they if they try to take over if there's like a palace coup and Prime number four decides that it wants to be in charge then I'm in trouble Have any of you taken a like the strengths finder Myers-Briggs gallop studies just to cure So during this conversation I was looking at jack and jack my second Um, so my first is competition and my second is actually Includer so I'm looking at our call and I'm in the Brady Bunch mode and I'm like everyone's talking but jack's not so We need to you know, it's so it's so funny too because in my mind That's also part of a conversation is Is everyone getting what they want from it and I and I get concerned I get concerned if everyone is involved because I want them they choose, you know to be part of a conversation And so it's just so interesting but then I realize that somebody else's Strength, you know might be that like empathy or or they just they they take longer to process So they actually prefer to be silent because they're listening and then they'll be typing it in So it's just that's also a part of communication to be aware of is How do we prefer to communicate and process? Totally read and then jack just did the jazz hands which Which I teach people like whenever I give a speech in front of an audience I teach them jazz hands and I love it has a little contagion contagious effect, which I love But I find I find jazz hands to be very useful on zoom In particular in Brady Bunch mode forget it if you if you have only one speaker at a time But if you're in Brady Bunch mode, this Gives a lot of color to the conversation, especially when three four five six Or more people start picking it up and doing it and it makes it much livelier than just a whole bunch of people like this And one person, you know, who has the floor And then second note One of my skills in a live meeting is the interjection Is waiting for the breath waiting for the pause trying not to run over what somebody's saying But stepping in just to either add color or change shift the conversation back on topic or call somebody else into it or or That's one of my skills live I find that superpower completely debilitated online I think I might be getting a little better at it But I find that the that the minute lag period and the a couple other things about video Nuke that nuke that power somehow so I wind up I wind up using the sideband a bunch more Etc. Well, you just raised something that I forgot about because we're all have no lag time here Yeah, you know, we've all been on the calls with that one person is not connected one You know video calls and it changes the whole nature of right, you know, and it's sort of like that You know, I always try to bring all these these samples back to like what it's like If we were all in the same room and it'd be comparing it to a person who like You know jumps in 30 seconds after we've moved on to another topic What did I miss? Yeah, it's it's hard, you know, and that's hard Yeah, it's I mean it Jerry, you're so good at that In real so what I would I'm curious because you are it's your superpower It you know being in a room with like as many as I've seen you do it with over 100 people, you know Really understanding and being present. I'm curious What what what are some of the things like because I'm sure you've thought about it Make this a challenge for you because here we're only four people, right? Listen, you know Can you tease out what I'm sure you've thought about it what it is? Because that's really Whatever it is is is is the design piece that needs to be thought about, right? Yeah. Yeah In a room like face-to-face Part of it is having good peripheral attention Yeah, so a lot of people like a terrible waiter is the one who just stopped at the next table and didn't see you going Right, right. So so I kind of have an auctioneer's attention when I'm in the room in front of a lot of people Which means I'm processing a whole lot of input. I misinterpret a couple things like oh, was that a comment? No, you're just scratching your head. Okay, fine right and and Paying attention to the periphery pays off really well because I can tell when somebody's like kind of to stuff about what's being said And then I'm in the background. I'm busy processing. Okay. Do I invite them in, you know Hey, Dave, you look like you're a little pissed by what's being said. Do you want to jump in? It helps in settings like Jerry's retreats where I know everybody in the room Because the ability to call in people by name is magical. It really it really changes things and I also I know a lot about it. Yeah And I know a lot about most everybody in the room. So I know issues that they're that are really hot for them I know maybe Uh events that just happen in their lives and now through facebook because we all kind of publish our lives so much Everybody has a lot of read on those kinds of things. It's you know, pretty interesting how that works So then um in zoom the max I get most people don't connect those dots That's what I wanted to say like that's a really interesting key. Yeah connecting Those dots in different contexts I'm paying attention to a bunch of different things In what I'm running a room and and I'm doing the same thing with my little notepad Because in a room I definitely have my little square ruled, you know a pad in front of me And I'm keeping a cue of who wants attention next for to speak next But I'm also keeping a bit of a cue of topics that might be interesting to go to next or that might fit where we are And and and I can't keep that all in my head. It's it's like the cube I I pop a fuse if I try to hold that all in my head, which is why the pad is so important um, but I'm But I'm paying attention to a lot of different things, right? um The lens that the nature of the nature of the lens sort of like Yeah, it's interesting because you and I both did like podcasts for a decade when podcasts before podcasts were cool um, and uh We started thank you. I like I like to think that as well and And early in my podcast in the ytan podcast pip my co my co-starter said hey, why don't you do like a summary at the end? Right and and wl member jack you may remember I at the end of each of our podcasts I would do a summary of today We talked about this this this and I could do that because I was taking copious notes on paper while hosting the conversation while looking at the chat While you know the whole thing while managing like did we lose people? You know tech support. I was tech support the whole thing It was insane. You were so good at it because they were tight calls And and and I love doing the summaries and some people love the summaries more than the calls. It was pretty funny Yeah, um, but I say all of that because at one point later I trained somebody on how to how to host podcasts And we we did some we did a one or two training sessions Then we had the first call and and I noticed that she ended the call kind of early And then we debriefed afterward and she said jerry I looked down at my notes toward the end of the call and I had not written down a single thing And that that's the point at which I realized That very likely not everybody's doing all the processing I'm doing at the same time and that and that I don't know if it's trainable But I think the multitasking versus single testing thing isn't a Character definer, but I think some people find it really really hard to attend to many things at once. I totally get that Different types of things. Yeah I can test different things than that And we had three people on our podcast and I can tell you how that broke down but keep going. Yeah. Yeah, so so Um, and and for instance my wife april It took me a while to get her to understand that her calendar memory her feats of of like a daring on being able to recall things and dates and all that was not a normal attribute It was a superpower. Yeah, and and therefore that my inability to remember dates at that precision Was not a definite character flaw And it was you didn't mean that you didn't love the event or it wasn't It just it just meant I was further toward the mean of the curve. I wasn't like Deficient on the skill remember that it was wednesday of may doesn't mean that I didn't love the event I'm not sure what year we were in mongolia. I really I'm sorry, but I don't know what year we actually flew to mongolia I couldn't tell you right now I can give you a range. I'm probably good within like three years Wow, that is a super that is a superpower because I saw So so one day a couple years ago. She turns to me and it's not like the fourth of july or whatever She says, you know, I'm gonna scare you right now, but I can tell you what we were doing on this day for the last seven years Isn't that a isn't that a actual um Like there's a name for this like I think so I there I've seen interviews with people who can do this It's like people who can do mental math, you know, yeah, it's a thing. It has a thing It's a thing That's insane. I'm jealous. It is. It's fun. So partly How do we make some of these superpowers a little bit more explicit so we can share the wealth and help one another with the superpowers either To bring your own superpowers into somebody else's event or not Or to show other people teach other people coach other people in using the superpowers. I think that's interesting I'm just I think we need a new digital Myers Briggs Yeah, that's right. Well, I I collect up personality profiles. I'll put the link to my brain for it in our chat And there are there were a shocking number of personality profiles This this is a very enjoyable call for me because I literally Was planned I haven't been writing a lot lately as Jerry knows in a really long time and This lunch I had with clive which was all about this topic from a different entry point And he's like deb you should write it up again. Just just write a medium post give out of your system So this is giving me a lot of food for thought because I talked about this like Jerry you and I circled around this topic for years and I just love that you're Approaching it from the design perspective because I think the time is now Right that enough people sort of like the same issues around privacy People are dealing with these issues in multiple ways That I think it would resonate it it should and it's starting to resonate in the industry In the sense that you're getting anthropologists and you're getting people and I think we need to have elizabeth on the next call Churchill yeah, because she deals with yeah, exactly. That'd be great else I also wonder if like awareness heightens it, right? So I'm wondering jerry for example with april as soon as you made her aware that that's her superpower he like Did she perfect it even more did she sharpen it more because of that? You know and so that's an interesting piece Right, like it's like well, let me tell let me look, you know, that's that's a A brain power for me. So let me go ahead and train it, you know, like I mean, let's let's go ahead and see and Maybe I would be curious if you asked her again. Like once you made her aware Did she make a point to start testing herself to see If it really is something that's her superpower and is that one of the reasons why it became even stronger because it's I mean it's I can I can totally ask. Yeah, I will ask Because I think about you know, I'm thinking about my own at this point, you know, and I'm like well When people make me aware I definitely am more cognizant of them and then I start thinking about them during my conversations and I do Sincerely believe that maybe it's that like accountability at this point because I wrote, you know, I'm made aware of it But uh, I do feel like it's becoming stronger Totally I'm uh, I'm actually I just sent the message. I just sent the question to april over uh over chat. So We'll see if she answers. I figured I figured I can ask her later or I could use a sideband right now right, right um, aliza The this this topic started between us and and like we've we've picked around a bunch of different sides of it Are we close to where you were? Where you were thinking what are we missing? What should be pushed on a little harder? You know, I think we've covered so much and we've taken it in so many different ways than I even thought of so I'm Thoroughly enjoying this conversation. Um, when I think about What I'm personally trying to figure out. I think it's How to earlier on Determined and whether that be that user manual that was typed in earlier. But like how to determine what is The best method of communication how to determine how to build that trust sooner um with your perspective audience just because I mean, that's that's the point of this conversation, right? The point of the conversation is to have a Trust worthy and relationship building conversation. So I know you typed an ai there I think that's a great point and I actually during the course of this call because of the whole um The camera piece I started noticing it and I was wondering like is there capability where my camera can follow my eyes So that you can see that I'm actually watching you Because I am interested I am engaged and I want to make sure that that my audience knows that So at least and I met through an exponential change project at the company she's been working at and Was it one of one of the teams? I don't think it was your project one of the teams had An ai assistant for video conferencing. Didn't think I thought that was there was Yep, and and there's actually been somebody did a doctoral thesis on this that I saw at a conference a couple years ago and the idea is You could have some pattern recognition looking at the conversation and The one that I saw Is called us plus And what it does is it's measuring? Who has the most who takes how much time during the call? So if you are eating the whole conversation, it'll it'll send you a side note That says hey, it looks like you're talking more than everybody else It notices pitch intonation If you tend to be monotone, it'll tell you I think Things like that and I think it's also trying to read are you frowning a lot, you know And and some people unconsciously frown when they're in their idle behavior When they say yeah, yeah Is that and but they don't they don't know like they have no idea that their idle behavior is like that And and one thing I do on calls is I'm kind of looking to see do I look like I'm like grumpy or mad or something And I I I may actually sort of prompt myself to smile a little bit or to or to move more into the light It's a little bit like the light Jerry. What's funny? It's like a moth, right? When I coach people on public speaking, I'm like Do not duck the light the light is how your audience will see you you need to be under the light You need to make sure that you are illuminated by the light. You don't do not avoid the light and and here Here on video. I think very few people think about lighting or understand lighting, but it's really pretty important Yeah, they're doing my podcast the best tip we got at the time because we started on uh, what's his faces? I'm literally in forgetting names. No I am I'm I'm bad with name. I'm great with faces and bad with names. So it's just getting It's very helpful if you're doing out a Call like this. I'm obviously sick today and I literally on the couch so I can be near the water Have one light source on the upper right and one light source on the bottom like it's literally like you put a Key light and a side light. Yeah. Yeah, I'll put a table lamp on the floor doing like and so then you I'm lucky because this gives me decent light But yeah, that makes a huge difference and you have the nice long shot along the wall with a fireplace in the back It's a very interesting shot. Well, Frank, by the way, usually it's like this So yes, I'm trying to uh, yeah anyway, um Which won't last for too much longer jerry because I'm gonna be moving back to new york I was wondering when do you move? I I haven't picked a date. We'll talk about it later. Okay. Good. By the end of the year By the end of the year. Okay. Good. That's funny. Yeah, so I'm gonna very much miss this this home. Yeah. Yeah But you'll be in new yorker again. Change is good. Yeah. Change is good. Keep saying that yourself I am I am I because it's you know anyway, that's a for you and I to catch up on but um I love this topic I'm I'm curious jerry because how many of these calls have you done and are you doing this kind of like itan? Like this is a topic. I love and I just want to explore this with as many people as I can So design from trust this particular topic and group and set of calls is new this is uh, you know the third call in this particular series and Uh, the mo the reason for the design from trust group is to design design from trust as a practice in the world So there's kind of a focus around what is it? How does it work? And I'm envisioning so for instance, there is a design If you go to design from trust.com, there's a fledgling website. Okay, great. Yeah There's a fledgling website there if you'd like to help build out the website. Let me know I'll I'll authorize you to to edit, you know the website, etc And I'm envisioning that there would be a section a sub page on the website for individuals And a sub sub page on the website for Corporations and one maybe for Municipalities, I love it because because that's one way to cut this. It's like, are you one of these or one of these or one of these? And that the one on individuals, um, I will certainly point to like here Here's how to build trust while having a video conversation. Is a really interesting sub topic Right, it totally fits. Um, and it's also like really good and practical because because very often discussions about trust This will surprise everybody and get just a wee bit abstract No Just a little and and so So I'm kind of going with whoever has energy on whatever topic And uh as Elise and I were talking last week This was like this bubbled up and we're like, well, let's make a call out of it So a lot more of this so as you think of things Let me know and we pick a time and we do it and jack, you know, if you want to Whatever pieces of this make uh make sense for you or jump out for you. Let's let's do that as well So that that's the idea is to to basically see what the group of people who starts showing up here is interested in jack Did you want to jump in? Just wanted to say we should talk about that. Um, as you know, I'm out of town next week But when I get back, I would like like to participate Sounds great Sounds excellent And again, uh timing is right because I'm looking to start using that part of my brain again. It probably won't be in Um, you know, it has I just miss it. I miss talking about it and I miss writing about it and I'm trying to um Approach it. Um, this time around in shorter bits and bytes rather than thinking about a big thing Whether it be a book or a big podcaster or you know, you know a way to make a living like just just just want to explore it So see whether where it leads. So yes, love that. So I have a reply from april She wrote back. Uh, I thought about it more for sure, which I didn't realize and then she writes I realized I had something I did not have before So that's pretty cool. Yeah I mean, when you when you brought that up elisa, I was thinking It's interesting how different people if I was told I had a student super superpower I don't know if I would it wouldn't prompt me to work on it more. It would prompt me to just be like I've got this thing, you know, I don't need, you know, not necessarily about honing it making it better Which is interesting how we approach these things, right? After I coached the person on the call and on on how to podcast and take notes and all that when we ended that I'm like Oh crap, you know, so this might be a superpower But I haven't sort of pushed it hard. I haven't I haven't gone back and done that. So Nick and me think maybe I should Yeah, that is a big that I mean I you have a bunch of different superpowers But I hadn't thought about it in a really long time and that yi tan superpower of yours was the one that That blew my mind the most Because it's not the ability to summarize it's the ability to both be present tumble the room manage the room And do that So that's a really interesting. We need to do a brain scan. Yeah, that'd be interesting because I physical brain not his Digital brain because I really enjoyed the whole process. I really enjoyed the whole thing It was like the calls were interesting to me. I was picking topics that I cared about I got to hone my my hosting skills and my my interviewing skills The people who showed up our little posse that showed up regularly was really fun And so I got to see you all regularly, which was great I never quite perfected the link over to itunes and made it a good podcast. I did zero Marketing of it. SEO of it. I was terrible at that Um And then the note taking while a lot of mental work was not a lot of work Meaning I had to be I had to be really present Like if all my neurons weren't on the call, it was not going to go well But doing that didn't feel like a lot of effort. It was like, oh, okay Here we are we're in the thick of it and then doing the recap at the end was happy making partly because after a while I knew this is really the fun part And also while taking notes over time I learned that I would make big circles on the page for the the the things to mention on the recap Right. So here's a cluster. Here's a cluster. Here's a cluster So that then as I did my recap, I would just be you know, I would I would have visual cues on my note pages, but At the end we were doing 90 minute calls It started as 45 minute calls It turned into 90 minute calls for the end of uten and I would have six seven written pages of notes At the end of a call easily So my my thing that's amazing about that is when I did a podcast guys it was it was three of us And we hadn't thought about it at the time, but we we definitely each had different roles and personalities but one of my Cohorts was and and what we our podcast now you can do this so much easier, but we couldn't we had a live chat during the podcast So it was really the kind of podcast that you wanted I don't know how many listens we had after the fact. It was really more like a yitian call. It was more like You know, we did a podcast and we had this live chat during during it and we could never integrate those two So it was really like joining a call joining a call like this Um and During the whole thing we always joke. I call kevin marx the link whisperer Because we would mention something and within two seconds he'd have a link to it You know, like he literally would find ten and different. He's like the living wikipedia You know, and it was an amazing superpower of his that he doesn't Like when you certain times when you have a superpower like april you don't understand It's like pete kiminsky Right All you have to do is say pete kiminsky Very similar to two of them very very similar and but imagine doing like doing this live It would be like, oh, that's boop boop boop boop boop Now we weren't able to translate that to great post show notes because of who we just didn't But that's a super duper helpful skill and I think you could probably you know, if you wanted to go back to the um The woman you were giving the notes on podcasting about like You just said like you'd circle things why i'm sure there are things you do that you could break down and make And and click bait the seo of design from trust These days better than we have in the past that my my my recent forays into being a content marketer. Um You know, it's like five ways to make you, you know I was just about to do a parody of that and say seven amazing skills you can build to may improve your your podcast Yeah, you know to triple your podcast audience. How about that? It has to be yeah, it's gotta it's gotta have like a numeric payoff Oh, by the way, there's a website and um Shoot, it's not hub spot. I will find it and put it in here in a second where you literally like they You type in the headline for your post And they AI it they say it's not enough emotional words There's and they yeah, it's sweet. It's like a it's like a comprehension level thing only for seo Exactly. Exactly. Wow. I will I will drop that in here in a second. Love that or call, you know, right kevin and say Ken what's the link for that? Yeah, exactly. I used it all the time. It's hysterical But it is how you end up having the buzz-feedification of the entire internet those pluses and minuses to it, but yeah, exactly So in the chat, I just typed in a mystical looking topic of ijb as a reminder to me that Something I've been toying with doing for a couple years now is to do a vlog basically a podcast with video called inside Jerry's brain Yes And to do it with my brain as the backdrop And I'm sort of not quite sure how to do this technically other than sort of screen share my brain But I kind of don't want just the brain to be there. I want there to be lots of talking heads and all that So I'm I'm not quite sure how to how to mix it up But to do something a lot like like the yeetam podcast was which is lots of different topics in fact kind of improv style um, and then to both Mine the brain to look for what do I already have on these topics but then to add things live to the brain? Right And I I keep telling that it would take It would take some focus to do and some attention and some time But I think it would be really fun to do and I think For the longest time I didn't undertake it because When I'm using zoom and using my brain and the browser a little bit things slow down On my computer and it's not that pleasant But I think I think maybe things are sort of quick enough now that it might actually work But if that sounds like a terrible idea like raise your hand or tell me but if it sounds like a like something I should go try to do Let me know too Well, it's interesting Oh, there's the link the headline analyzer. Thank you. Yeah This is terrible. It's really funny I lost a little bit. I'm now and to be honest and trust I lost a little bit of your goal While I was looking for the headline analyzer. So what's the issue? Um, should I do a should I do a vlog a video show called inside Jerry's brain? And you know what I could pretty easily and cheaply try it out for three months I can say hey, I'm gonna do it for this long and see what happens, right It is really unique. That's the thing that I but with my marketer hat on that's the thing. I really like about it. It's interesting Different and I just I just only in this moment realized Why this matters in this conversation? Okay, which is Um, someone pointed out Alisa. Was it you someone else? I'm trying to figure out How to open up interesting conversations around trust, right? Okay Nobody knows me and the question is how do I establish trust up front? And one thing that's really interesting about inside Jerry's brain is that it's an act of vulnerability Like you are in fact inside everything. I think you can you can see what I believe You can see, you know, you know about evidence. I've collected for a long time It's all kind of right there. You are you are it's a little bit like inside, you know being john malkovich Uh, you know, it's like malkovich malkovich malkovich. No, I think you should call it being Jerry's brain If or something like that it might we might play around with the if you want to play across, you know I can do my branding stuff. Well, and then a conversation I just had last night over over tacos um was very much about Getting people's confidence in a way and this was more of a sales tactic than anything, but I like it Make it about them not about you. So inside Jerry's brain winds up being about Jerry about me And and the Jerry's brain object is this kind of unique thing in the world that I don't understand You know, I think it's all like pretty interesting, but Who knows so how do I frame it so that I'm doing that thing, but it's not so much about me but about Everybody else coming in to think about that. Yeah Yeah, because the idea of calling it being Jerry's brain or inside Jerry's brain I find it tongue-in-cheek. I like it. I find it amusing, but it is definitely like putting me front and center, which I don't usually do What else how else might it be framed, but but but I like the angle that Trying to host an earnest conversation about trust, which is what we're doing right now Like this design from trust video set that I'm putting up on youtube is exactly that It's like hey, let's sit down and have an earnest conversation about trust is is what it is Might that other vehicle be a really good way for opening up very similar issues But from a place of more credibility and because of the vulnerability And or am I reading too much into the that kind of context? um What I'm thinking I have I'm going to ruminate on this because it's not an easy answer um And I think There's there's definitely something that can be done around this. I'm questioning whether whatever we come up with should be a vlog You mean no video or no what or what do you mean? No, it should be a series of video. I mean By vlog what I mean is a video series. Okay, just screen captures on topics. Okay. Good. I want to make sure that it's Yeah, I'm curious. What do we all think vlog vlogs are to me? It's a podcast that includes video Yes Well, I'm so what I'm doing is I'm questioning whether it needs to be a live thing and you just make a series of videos That are interesting to us. Oh, so you're saying topics of your brain and because True Trina with being a true friend here like you've got this great thing designed from trust Yeah, it's been more energy building that up and having the video series be a thing. That's a Yeah, give qualms. Okay, and I think you have a lot of interesting to me it's a it's It and I haven't been in your brain in a while, but it shows longevity It's I'm sorry. It shows longevity. It shows qualms. It's an interesting tool Like it establishes you in a lot of interesting ways. Yeah, I think spending some time and I could probably think through this with you is like um and open like I interviewed jerry recently for a company that I was with and just left and that video never made it up That's and I feel bad about that, but I do have it somewhere just so you know But my point is that what I've learned over the last two years of doing a lot more videos is Use that as a really interesting unique like let's come up with a A framework and a structure for a series of those and just throw those up on youtube and facebook The the thing that lit this idea back up in my head because I've been thinking about inside jerry's brain for a couple years now The thing that really brought it back to the fore was uh two weekends ago. There was a conference Weirdly in the building that I'm sitting in so I have a I have a desk at a little design firm in portland called ziba design And four weeks ago. I got a note from gary wolf the guy who kind of started the quantified self movement I knew that name was familiar Yeah, and so gary's like hey, you're in portland, right? We're gonna have our next quantified self conference is actually going to be in your town in the ziba auditorium And I'll write him back and I'm like guess where I'm sitting um And so they had the conference here and gary gave me 15 minutes at the very end of the conference So sunday at 5 p.m. Esther by the way was at the whole conference. She was great Wow, because gester cares about the topic a lot. Yeah, um, gester dyson the person I used to work for lisa. Um, and So in those 15 minutes, I basically, um, thank you, lisa I'm sorry. We're going over to i'm gonna i'm gonna wrap the call pretty soon Um, sorry about that. That's all right And So I stood up and I basically showed my brain to this room of quantified self people because it is a home of qs, right? Totally cute. It's the original qs and it kind of blew everybody's mind Yeah, like I could see the fuses popping the qna was fantastic. They really got it and cared Um, I there were a couple really funny moments Uh in it, uh, the video is actually going to be put up at some point pretty soon because they videoed everything and I'm I'm hoping the also videotape what I was showing because mostly I think they're gonna fold in the decks and I didn't have a deck I was doing a live free demo. Yeah, but that made that and I've done improv style Brain Live sessions before I did one at the what was it called in berkeley the hill house. No, what was the What was the name of the place that jeff u boys was a member of? Yeah, yeah, yeah hillside club hillside club hillside club So I did one at the hillside club. I did one somewhere else And I love them because that Like like the humans together looking at knowledge and gardening together jack Jack will empathize with this a lot. Yeah, it's exciting. Yes, you're right. You're right. And if everybody's leaning into it, you're like That was cool. I want more of this. How do I do that? so The liveness of it captures that and and and one thing I know about me is anytime I start recording a video I slip into dead deliberate gerrymode and I lose all of the fire that's there when I'm in front of a group I I have the same issue. So I totally get that. I'm totally getting what you're saying. I think what I'm responding to is um Maybe do maybe do fewer that is where I always go big, right? Do spend some time to Craft what this live session the first one will be Maybe do a do a test one, you know pilot and at little mvp for mvp first But I would like to do like one big one that goes that that's really captures it well Rather than a lot of small series of And I and I can do both things I can record and post I can have live scheduled shows and I can say this one's live Here's here's one that I did, you know offline. That's fine. I think of ways to like Bring it into this topic or not or yeah, there's definitely something Something there and I think it's crafting the the story Exactly and in how to do it. Yeah, exactly Mr. Topic quests any any thoughts on this? um No, this is topic quests. That's the whole point you guys are knowledge All the way this is this is knowledge gardening at its best no question about it That feels good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So gotta find the other knowledge gardeners and come in together and sort of do this thing Yeah, that's right Yeah, good. Okay, that motivates me to just at least I I can give this a try at zero marginal costs So it's it's basically, you know the effort to get to do it frame it and get get the word out I do own inside jerry's brain.com I I don't have being jerry's brain.com, but hey Once I said it it was like man, it's it's yeah It's it when you say it doesn't it doesn't resonate enough with the movie that it would it doesn't work Well being jerry Right. Yeah, which which I don't want. I don't which I don't recommend to anybody. So yeah Um, any any last thoughts on this topic before we wrap the call. Um Just that I want to catch up with you. Oh One on one. We're sure let me make an introduction mark and twang pearl has just joined. Oh my god. I'm just in time Um, and jerry I I asked you to make sure he's on the list. Um He he is a knowledge gardener supreme and he's in montreal fabulous Because he well And and he did he deserves to be invited to a retreat sometime. It sounds excellent Whenever we do one again, right? Well do one in montreal and you'd guarantee he'd be there, but Totally gotta be one. I'd be a great place to do It is a great place. Yeah And mark on one. Are you you're you're in the topic quests? Venture or how do you connect to to these sorts of issues? I'm Very much part of the topic quest venture. I'm also doing my own things what I'm focusing I'm focusing on two things in a way mostly interoperability layer for knowledge applications So product calls so knowledge applications can share data Yes, that sounds great. This means I agree And this means I disagree okay, good and then When that is ready, I'll be able to get more in involved in actually visualizing conceptual structures and You know trying to find how to make clear what the salient points are Especially in terms of community agreement is agreement Yeah, that you know Showing the points of consensus and dissensus on a graph. Are you familiar with steven tollman's argumentation theory? Very much. Yeah I'm sorry go ahead um I like it a lot conceptually. Yeah I don't know if it's what I would use as a graph structure What I mean like like I don't think visualizing that is that helpful But certainly the notion of grounding is essential The notion of and we need to show where a concept or An assertion is grounded. Yes Not as a link but as a domain and There's another one of our trust conversations this whole point of argumentation Um, so one of one of my Um, yeah, I was interrupting. Sorry. No, not at all not at all. Um, one of my Sorry, I need to I accidentally didn't type in the right place One of my realizations from 20 almost 21 years of using the brain now Is that we are an amnesic civilization? We are dumber than we otherwise would be because we don't have tools for sharing what we know Right and and that leads directly to the question you were just raising which is hey if we were actually sharing what we know What would it look like? And and and what is a compelling way to do that, right? And that You get into really deep waters really quickly because um, I had a zoom call with two other black belt brain users a year ago There are other black belt. There are other brain users. It's true all 12 of us or something I don't know there's the like an annual retreat and if we all are in the same place at the same time We have to buy extra insurance, right? Uh climate web is a brain Well mark was one of the people on the call And then the other person on the call uses the brain in such an intricate way that I could not understand what he was doing You actually actually like I had to shrug and give up. I was like, I don't I don't I don't get it Like the way he was using the same tool to represent stuff. I would have done completely and totally differently So so that was within the same tool then you go over to kumu and you go over to you know, there's there's 15 odd actually pretty good tools Each of which have very different representational mechanisms some of which are really complicated to look at And your average civilian coming through is not going to get What's happening there? Right. So so I think this is a hugely important question Like like what does this visualization look like and how is it understandable so that it might be used in civic discourse at a town hall meeting anywhere in the world Right because because that's one of the important places where where this might actually help us Um and mark antwan just before you joined I was describing a video show I think I want to prototype called inside Jerry's brain Which would basically be like an improv session with my brain as a backdrop shared screen kind of thing That I'd like to make it a little bit more interesting than that Where we use a curated context as a prop and a background for the conversation and what you're looking at doing Shines a light on that as a as a like yes, that's part of why I would like to experiment this way But no clearly there's The visualization is a huge thing. I've started thinking about it, but I'm as I said, I'm more busy with the protocol right now, which is Huge Yeah, it's it's it's a huge kettle of fish, but it's obvious to me that We have to make it very clear Uh The intersection between thoughts and community Uh What is the where where has in which community has this thought arisen which community supports it which community Disputes it why and also I keep speaking about weak signals Uh make it very clear. Oh look this has been proposed. There's been a objection Nobody's answered that objection. So the proposal is in trouble until somebody has An answer maybe the answer will have an answer and you know, this is But these are this is more an ibis based But having computational values and ibis knowing composite computational value How many people is it always the same problem making all the objections? Is it What's the support for this objection? These are the kinds of things that must be visible exactly One side note in here, which is One of the things that's really important for me to preserve in a shared context Sort of collaborative sense-making tool is the ability for me to have my own point of view visible And then and then for us to figure out what are our overlaps where our common interests all of that And if I had to like on wikipedia There's only one canonical page for like the jack park page And we all have to debate and agree on what goes on the jack park page I could not do that if I had to debate what each entry does. I would not use the tool period So my ability to to to curate my brain I love that and it's worked really well for me But if and I want to share it, but I then have to be able to see these intersections They're as important as anything else to me The absolutely true one thing i'm trying to make clear in the protocol is beyond Transclusion it's I'm using very much a github model The notion that here's A base we agree on or this community agrees on and then I can make a fork and okay Here's how I view things community agrees. Okay. Good. Let's merge That's great. Um And a very tiny thing Are you looking at and this this is outside of the realm of protocols, but it's about how the data is stored Are you looking at distributed? Storage of the data so that basically tuples are are Savable and retrievable from any server on the web Yes Yes, and no, uh, but yes differently I'm working on the notion of what I call a you know a realm container or whatever I call it a realm right now and this realm is both storage container and Community reference point right So, of course, I can create my own realm based on a given realm and then I can store it myself I can put it in distributed storage. I can do all kinds of things I'm a lot of that sometimes in the future, but what is in the present right now is the notion that you refer to The big issue is identifiers, right? So basically any Topic has a aka field Saying this is also known as this and this in this id in this realm and this id in this realm and this id in this realm Like a like a thesaurus, but it has to have sort of fuzzy logic around it it's um The aka is not so uh fuzzy. I can have other relationship for non fuzzy things Okay, and I can't the relations can just refer to something outside Super interesting love it Realize it's just us now Yes Ta-da I need to tell you a short story. I I first met mark and toan on a um Who's mr. Wiki what what what what's his name ward cutting him ward cutting him hang out And eventually I had did some emails with mark and toan and I told him that I was going to de Brogneck to uh to a Knowledge federation conference and he said oh can I come? And he did And he fit right in and he actually ran some of the sessions and and so he's been He's been one of us ever since that's great. And he lives here in portland Yes, of course he does. He's a neighbor. I but I've only had lunch with him once since being here So I should probably catch up again Yeah, I I would I would drive to portland just to spend time with him. You know, I mean it's for sure Yeah, he is he's wonderful sweet We've been on this line for a long time Do you want to broach any other topics and mark and toan? It feels like we've just barely opened the lid on where we can talk about things, but Shall we wrap this one and plan a different call? That's it's you guys. It's your choice. I mean, it's fabulous that What I did is I I sent I replied to your invite to today and copied Uh mark and toan to ask you to add him to the list And he picked up the url and jumped in and it's it it perfect timing. Yes. Yes Strangely just perfect blacks one actually And and so uh, yeah, he's he's he's one of us and he should be dragged to a retreat Okay, we can do that. That's easy Now I just have to have one Well, yes, I I understand Exactly exactly Yeah, we do need to organize something here as well someday because let's face it. It's convenient Yeah, well, we've had talks about doing what we called the brovnic west And um, lots of people even uh, yuzuru tanaka from from japan would like to come to a Well, you know, you recall he went to marconi with us I was thinking of doing a a brovnic west at marconi as as as a you know, in fact, I talked to you about that In fact, I may have to hire you to run it for us. You know, I mean, it's Um, but we need We need a knowledge. We need an epistemic event. Yeah, exactly That's slightly different than the broad ranging. You know the blue sky things that you run We we need to have a major event where we bring people who Think like you and I and mark and twan and and so forth That's that's going to be a big one and we need to do it So as a closing up, perhaps there is a Let me see if it's a public thought Um, in my brain, there's a thought titled vis posse Which is sort of the visualization posse. It's people I've heard of or met some of them. I've met a lot of them. I've just heard of Who care about this topic? And none of the people who are under this thought know that they're Here So this is just my own list as I wander around and make these connections and mark and twan I'm going to add you to my brain and add you to this thought like when we're done But this would be my starting point for an invite list for Who might be interested in these kinds of things? and this is Less the knowledge Ontological side than the how do we see what we know and share it side, but it's all deeply intertwined as Everything else as Ted Nelson told us a long ago. Yes Well, what a fantastic way to wind up a really good conversation. Yeah, thank you I'm sorry that mark and twan missed the earlier parts because they related to but uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna take the recording and post it on youtube and send out a link Mark and twan. Do you want to be on the design from trust mailing list the conversational list? Great, I will put you on there and then I'll post the link to that list so I can get those things done right away okay You have my mail. Do you want a url or what is your email if you'll type your email into the chat? I will pick it up and well, it's also in the email. I sent you. Oh never mind then Don't you yeah, don't put it in the chat. So just in case the chat goes public. Oh, there we go. All right I'm putting both because that's my that's my companies. That's not my personal. That's my company. So that gives you the url at the same time All right, that's a better one. Sure. Perfect Thank you gentlemen Great fun really appreciate this Bye. Bye. Bye