 Welcome to Toffy TV, it's my pleasure to say I am joined today by former Labour MP, current Mayor of Manchester, and more importantly, Gladys Street season ticket holder Andy Burnham. Andy, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me on. Oh, it's great, great to have you on. It's really important to think that we get as many voices out there as we can to try and boost evidence. I was going to say appeal then, that's maybe not the right word, well maybe it is the right word, I'm not sure, but certainly we've got a case, I think, isn't it, is that you know, because we've got a big argument to make on a number of fronts now haven't we, so yeah, it feels like there's not many people out there speaking for us, doesn't it? Yeah, certainly on the, certainly after the second, the second one, that the Premier League of It is where it doesn't seem like we have a lot of people speaking for us, and we'll come to that in a moment, but I just want to take you back to November, I think it was the 21st of November when Everton were hit by the 10 point deduction. I mean, what was your, what was your feeling then? I mean, how did you hear about it and how, you know, how did that hit you? Yeah, I picked up wind of it, because obviously there's a lot of briefing going on around our situation, isn't there? And I was getting kind of getting worried, but I still was thinking, well, like, you know, I don't know, I wasn't sure what it would be, but when the news came through, I was genuinely stunned. The biggest ever penalty in top flight football. You know, I mean, the reason why I was stunned is because I'd picked up that we'd opened up and we were, you know, trying to sort of be honest about the situation, and it just felt to me all along that that would count for something. And in the end, it seemingly didn't. And it just felt, wow, God, you know, what's the sort of benchmark they're setting here really in terms of, you know, the punishment and the way in which the behaviours are awarded or not. You know, it just felt, it just felt as though they hadn't got it right. I mean, I felt that ever since and I still feel it. In fact, I feel it even more now. Yeah, absolutely. I felt the anger, the anger that's just built up is saying that I don't think on that day quite hit me, but the days after when you start hearing other people's opinions and and then you know, you're not 100% sure of like, you know, when you hear stuff like you think, will he actually go through with it? One thing that hit me actually, you know, I've been involved in football a long time, you know, and I've been involved in regulation actually a long time as a government minister. What really struck me was how not just a number of people spoke up for us, just how little coverage there was of the situation, the fact that people just said, oh well, you know, so it's fine, but it isn't fine, is it? To have something like this just landed on a club like us without any real justification, explanation, because the Premier League haven't explained anything really have they as to how they're going about this. It just, you know, feels all wrong for a founder member of the Football League, founder member of the Premier League. No one's asking for special favours as a result of that, but you are asking for a degree of respect in terms of the way the club is treated and that seems to have been completely absent to me. Yeah, and you've mentioned the coverage previously because obviously the days afterwards we did have that big gap because I think we were going into an international weekend and you have mentioned yourself, you know, you've done an interview with Sky Sports News that was never shown. We actually did an interview with Sky Sports News that was never shown and previously before that Sky Sports had been very, any opportunity they could certainly to come and speak to us and do a live. They were all over that and have you heard anything since on from anywhere why that wasn't shown? Not to me directly and bear in mind as a politician of over 20 years frontline elected politician I've never had this happen to me before. If an interview is carried out, it's always used and particularly when it's a highly topical issue. So, I've not had that before. A journalist put it to me that they were lent on, but then I had it said to me third hand that they'd been in a group meeting with others where they said, oh, no, no, the news agenda changed and something bigger happened and we just didn't need it anymore. Well, okay, maybe, but I must say I'm not particularly buying it because, you know, to have thousands of people protesting at that match because it was the United Game. It was before the United Game that I had to take that interview. You know, loads of people talking about it or the fans, not just us. You know, everyone was talking about it that weekend just to say it wasn't newsworthy. I'm sorry, but that doesn't add up. And this is the thing, isn't it, about the Premier League as a regulator. It has a different relationship with the media, doesn't it, in terms of the selling of TV rights. So, you know, can its role as regulator be sort of separated from that? Is there not potentially a conflict of interests there? You know, the regulator with an ability to, if you like, have a different relationship with the media possibly even put some pressure on the media. That's what was put to me, that pressure was placed upon the media to not to show it. I don't know. I don't have evidence to prove that, but that is certainly the suggestion that was put to me. And if that is the case, that isn't what a fit and proper regulator does. A fit and proper regulator does not put pressure on the media not to cover up an issue if it's a little inconvenient. Yeah, it is very strange. And as I was saying, you know, obviously it's all speculation, isn't it? And there's a lot of conspiracy theories out there. But I know for us, we've done a lot of live stuff where it was in the studio or at Gouldersham Park previously on anything really, anytime they wanted, you know, a good line or a good headline or fill some space. And we know that, you know, they came into the studio actually within within an hour of the couple of hours, sorry, of the announcement of the 10 points. And number one, it wasn't done live, which is a little bit strange, but they actually sent a cameraman here from Sheffield and then another guy from Manchester to cover us that we don't normally have. And as you said there for a news cycle, especially going into a week, this was the weekend of the international break as well. So for a weekend where all the conversations was about Everton and the 10 point deduction, it's very strange that they couldn't find 20 minutes or even edit it down to a five minute segment to put in other segments to use. I found that really, really strange. And again, I don't know why that was the case, but it felt really strange to what had been used before. And as I said, I mean, as I said, I wouldn't want to start any conspiracies, but it just felt very, very different to the way we've seen it. We've been used in the media by Sky Sports News before. Well, I would completely agree. I mean, the thing is, you know, you think of a VAR controversy, they will rage about that all weekend and they'll just let everyone have their opinion about it. And that's the way it normally is and rightly so, isn't it? You know, they don't normally in any way kind of try to try and block out opinions about things like that. But you know, this was as kind of debated amongst people, wasn't it? Not just Evertonians. You know, everyone was thinking, oh, God, this is the standard and the way they're going to go about this. This has implications for everybody, and Forrest fans obviously are feeling that now. So to say it wasn't a kind of topic of interest is just, you know, I don't buy that at all. You know, something doesn't feel quite right. I know the way they briefed newspapers about my letter on the day that I sent it that afternoon of the United Game. My phone was pinging up. I was in the street on that day and my phone was pinging away as I was, well, I was always watching the ball sink into the back of the Gladys Street net within two minutes. But after that, I was getting these reports from journalists saying, the Premier League is saying this, the Premier League is saying that, you know. And a lot of it wasn't, in my view anyway, strictly true. So something doesn't feel right. Something doesn't add up. I don't think it's particularly healthy to be in a situation where there isn't a very clear public explanation of the approach to sanctions. I just don't think that is a healthy situation when so much is riding on it. People are so kind of, if you like, worried by this and, you know, they, you know, we know what it means to people and for the regulator, in this case, the Premier League, not to come out and really explain their position clearly for people and really to sort of lay out why it's being done like this and what the principles are that underpin it. Because there's big questions hanging here. You know, is this same formula that they sent to the Independent Commission in the summer? Is that now being used with the panels that are being convened to here, our second charge and forest charge? Yeah. And if it isn't going to be used, well, why isn't it going to be used? We just don't have an idea of the policy framework which they're using, do we? No. Well, I'll come back to that in a moment, but I just wanted to, you know, pick it up on what you just said about the media there, especially with the second charge, do you feel, do you feel that there has been, you know, briefing taking place between the Premier League and, dare I say, some client journalism? Because I feel like the reaction to the second one has been a lot harsher on Everton and also the information getting out. I mean, we know the information got out for the first one because we know that it had already been leaked that they wanted a 12 point one. You know, to hear people like David Ornstein and Martin Ziggler saying, certainly Martin Ziggler, I think was saying for weeks before that he felt like, haven't we got a second one? And then for the day before, that David Ornstein to actually put out there that we were going to get a second one. Do you feel like the Premier League have been using a lot of these contacts to their own favour? You know, because we have already spoke about Sky obviously, but for those other journalists, do you seem to be getting the stories ahead of everybody else? Well, all I can say is definitely, you know, I remember being a bit stunned when I heard about the second charge. That was a good fortnight before. So that was briefed and it could only really have been briefed by the Premier League. And as you say, the day before, you know, is that the way to do these things? You know, you're kind of dropping bits to favoured people here and there. I mean, it's not all been one way. Has it, you know, Henry Winter, I think has given pretty, you know, strong and independent coverage of the whole situation. But he seems more like an exception to me than what you would normally expect where you might. OK, you'd accept views on both sides, wouldn't you? It's not saying that we expect everybody to kind of see it from our point of view, but you'd expect more of a debate about the whole thing. And, you know, on the day of the Villa Games a couple of weeks ago, you know, I was aware of this letter that was landing from Dame Sue Owen, former Permanent Secretary at the Department for Culture, Media and Sports, A Brendon Barber, Chair of ACAS, and Mark Carney, former Governor of the Bank of England. Now, there's a pretty heavyweight trio, I would say, of public figures. And it got some coverage, but not masses really. And, you know, something doesn't feel quite right. And it does feel a little bit as though the Premier League is using the power of its media contacts book to manage this situation to a degree. And I'll just say it because that's in my experience in public life. You know, you've called it and I'm calling it. I don't think this is, you know, we're seeing a situation here to some degree being manipulated, I think. And it shouldn't be like that. This should be an open, transparent process where everyone knows where they stand. But we don't know where we stand, do we? I don't think the club knows where it stands. And it just can't be right. That breaches every principle of what good regulation should be. So, there was that big ruling before Christmas from the European Court of Justice on the Super League and the sanctions handed out as a result of that. And that ruling repeatedly says that a sanctions regime should be transparent. It keeps coming back and back to that kind of judgment. And, you know, in this case, the Premier League's approach has been anything but transparent. Yeah, and obviously, with the transparency, you obviously sent a letter to the Premier League. And, you know, there wasn't the greatest comeback from them. Have you heard any more on that? Because you were obviously very public and they wanted to sort of keep it on the down low. Has that gone any further, the original letter you sent them? I have two replies. I mean, they briefed from their reply to the newspapers. So, you know, that was kind of put out there by the Premier League. So, clearly, they gave a copy of their letter to the media. The second letter that I sent, I asked them some very pointed questions. One being, would they publish the minutes of the Premier League board meeting of the 10th of August, where they agreed this formula that was then sent to the Independent Commission. And I also asked them if they would publish details of that formula as it formed part of Mr Masters' submission to that commission. They just didn't give an answer on that topic at all. And I just took the judgement not to put it in the public domain, because it didn't answer my questions. But equally, I don't want to be accused of doing something that, you know, that breaches some sort of process here. So, you know, I put out there what I feel I can, but it's a difficult situation for everybody when they are not doing this via full public statements. I would have preferred they just published their letters in reply to me as I published mine. So, it shouldn't really be conducted like this, should it? And it shouldn't be for MPs on a committee in Parliament to be dragging some information out as well. This shouldn't be done like this. Good regulation requires a clear and transparent process, a clear and transparent sanctions framework. And we've got none of that, and hence we feel that we're not being treated fairly. Yeah, and you mentioned not being treated fairly. Obviously, Everton have had a second charge. I mean, what are your thoughts on the fact that the Premier League still continue to investigate Chelsea? And now they're saying they have got a date set for Manchester City, but they're not willing to actually go public with the date of that? Well, to me, I'm just focusing on Everton's situation and looking at whether this is being done properly. And I come back to the point about a clear policy to underpin what's happening because given that there is such an overlap between the two periods that are being considered as part of these two charges, surely there is an issue of double jeopardy here. Can somebody be tried twice for the same event and then punished twice? I mean, where's the policy on that? Surely there has to be a policy on that? It can't just be left to the independent commission because the point here is they've gone out this policy now 100 miles an hour, haven't they? From not really doing much about profit and sustainability rules, they've gone at it all of a sudden, they've gone into overdrive from nowhere, haven't they? And they've hit us with this charge. And now because they've got straight this new regime of dealing with it more within season, it's created quite a bizarre situation where one club could be hit twice in the same season. And that surely shouldn't be the policy intention. I wouldn't have thought it should be, but yeah, we don't know, do we? And then all of a sudden this week, there becomes a floating round of a transfer ban. Well, where's that come from? Do you know, Pedra, where that has actually come from? I honestly, the first time he saw it was Joe Thomas. Now, I don't know where Joe Thomas has come from. I don't know where he got it from. I don't know whether he's been given a tip or a nod somewhere. I really don't know, but it's just... She's all wrong, though, isn't it? Yeah, it feels very wrong. It's not the favourite journalist and it's putting a bit of information there and a bit in someone's ear over there. I mean, this is not how this should be done, given how much it matters to us. And actually football sport is everywhere because what they're doing to us will become the precedent, won't it? And then potentially it could impact on lots of others. So why is a transfer ban suddenly being talked about? It's as if that's the solution to punish us over two seasons, isn't it? That you hit those with ten points this season and then the transfer ban will punish us next season because potentially we lose players in the summer as everyone is speculating. The same journalists who are speculating about our profit and sustainability situation are then speculating about our players being sold to other people. A transfer ban this summer would be... I think that would be potentially an even more damaging punishment than ten points. So who's driving this? It starts to feel like there's a vendetta against Everton somewhere within the system, doesn't it? It's been designed to damage us at every turn and prevent the club from going to a new home which is going to enhance the Premier League if we're allowed to be in the Premier League. The thing that I just still don't get my head around at all, why was none of that taken into account that it must be the case the way in which we're stretched with the stadium has had an impact on this. It just must be the case and equally the loss of a player, just a player disappearing from our books. Again that must have had an impact on our situation. It clearly hasn't helped our situation. Where is the balance here in this process and the obvious fairness? I honestly don't see it. Equally I don't want to go too far on the conspiracy road but we're told independent panel, independent panel, independent panel. It's nothing to do with the Premier League. If that is the case and they want us to believe this is all about an independent process they should have done a better job of due diligence on any conflicts of interest or any perceived conflicts of interest on the members of the panel who heard Everton's case. It just feels like the right way in asking the right questions. I don't know whether they were getting the right replies but it feels like the things Everton said to them they just completely ignored or didn't have an understanding of the things they were being told in terms of losing players, the loss of revenue because of the war in Ukraine, obviously Covid, these huge, huge things. Losing players without Everton having an ability to make any money on them. These huge factors don't seem like they had boxes to tick and none of the things Everton actually said to them matched up with the boxes they had to tick. It feels like the formula for whatever it was just wasn't there. Obviously the formula for giving a punishments as well just feel far too open-ended. Are they the things you must be worried about as well? Being so open-ended, the punishments and not having a formula. The Premier League I believe to have offered up a formula which would have resulted in Everton getting 10 points and yet somehow decaying to the 10 points but were not told what the formula was. That's obviously very worrying as well. It's very worrying and it's not right that they still haven't published that formula. How can we have confidence in the process going forward if they won't say whether or not that same formula will be used to guide the panels in the case of Forest and ourselves? Because none of it feels like it's consistent then, does it? The thing about any sporting, governing body or league is they have to ensure consistency and there has to be a clear perception of that consistency in terms of the way things are done but it looks anything but right now, doesn't it? I think we've established that the formula that was sent in to the independent commission began with six points for the offence, for being in breach at all and then adds a point for every five million. That's, as I understand it, that was sent in because the punishment comes back. Pretty much doing exactly that. The thing is, if you read that ruling from the independent commission, they give quite a wrap on the knuckles to the Premier League when it talks about this formula or policy they call it. They called it a policy, a policy being sent in mid consideration. They are quite strong saying this really shouldn't have been done given that we were set up on a different basis and therefore we are not going to accept this formula. It's a really odd part of the ruling I find and it's why I still believe and stand by what I said at the start. There's been an abusive process. If you start a regulatory process you have to stick to the basis on which you've done it. Mr Masters told the select committee last week that the policy is to have an open sanctioning regime. What he meant by that, not open as in transparent, I think open as in it's up to the commission. If that is the policy, why were they sending in a formula mid process? To what extent does that formula still have currency? They've also said always that the club voted against having a sanctioning policy or formula or framework. If that's the case, what were they doing sending something in? Because the minute you send in a formula you've set a precedent haven't you and you've therefore created a policy. To me anyway, none of it makes sense I just find that somebody has been involved in regulation as a government minister. Number one, transparency, otherwise you just get the feeling that you get a favour treatment for one and a different treatment for one and that's not good regulation. You can't have a lack of transparency about the rules before you start. The second thing I would say in all of my experience if somebody opens the books should reduce the penalty. It's a different way of engaging isn't it with a regulator and for that to get no alongside the other mitigations we spoke about let's get to it anyway. In my view, you cannot separate the treatment of Everton from the campaign the Premier League were running to try and do away with an independent regulator for football. The two are inextricably linked together. I was just going to come on to that obviously Richard Masters was in front of the select committee last week and he was put in front to ask some difficult questions I don't think he really did himself any favours and did the Premier League any favours but how did you view his appearance at that? Probably like you, I think he came quite close to misleading the committee. If you would probably say may have even misled it I don't know I will leave my judgment on that to others but I think I certainly raised my eyebrows least twice during that session one where he said to some way the Premier League has never had a policy of trying to push an independent regulator down the road he said that now I can tell you that I was on the receiving end of Premier League lobbying against an independent regulator and I know other politicians were as well so how does he square what he said there with what was going on behind the scenes if you like with the Premier League lobbying heavily not just a little bit heavily against an independent regulator and then he said that point about we have an open sanctioning regime well how does he square that with sending in a detailed formula to an independent commission again I don't think that tallies myself so that is what I took from his appearance and I don't think he cleared things up and in fact as I say I think he came quite close to giving misleading statements to the committee Yeah it seems do you find it worrying as well just how much football is actually moving into the political side of things at the moment because obviously we're not supposed to have any connection with that's what FIFA say between governments and football but a lot of people do seem to be a lot of MPs do seem to be getting involved with it seems like a hot topic at the moment is it do you find that a little bit worrying or do you find that something that has to come if we do push it towards the independent regulator No I find it the opposite I mean I know there's not a great deal on this podcast for my profession so let me just say that at the start but no I mean I think we are seeing the effects of very poor clandestine regulation and that's what Everton Football Club are currently on the receiving end where there are in my view conflicts of interest between the Premier League's role as the seller of media rights and the Premier League's role as a regulator of a league there's conflicts of interest there and hence why myself and other politicians over many years have said we need an independent statutory regulator for football given the money that's come into the game over the years given how much it matters to the public we need a regulatory system that does things in a very different way and obviously the Super League issue brought it right to the fore didn't it and the bill is landing in Parliament next month so you know the the bill to establish a regulator is about to land in Parliament so politicians are involved and I would say from our point of view right now will open transparent debate and a regulatory regime that might mirror something like we might see for one of the other utilities it's got to be better than what we're facing right now isn't it where we just don't have that transparency or that democratic oversight of what is taking taking place and I'd say it again you cannot separate the treatment of Everton from what is going on with the parliamentary debate about the football governance bill I have heard in the last couple of weeks that the Premier League has persuaded the government to leave the implementation and oversight of the profit and sustainability rules with the Premier League not to give that regime to a new regulator and again I think that's what this has all been about they've been trying to use their handling of us as a way of lobbying the government on that front and I'm pretty confident that what I'm saying is correct there and there are obviously talks that those rules are going to change as well the same rules that that haven't been deducted 10 points for could be changing in the summer as well so this makes it even seem even more dafft about what's happening to Everton and of course not even for us now that if they're going to change the rules they obviously already know they're not fit for purpose and we've seen at the moment no one's buying anybody I mean if the Premier League wants it to make a statement they have made a statement because no one's buying anyone so therefore the Premier League's not improving as a product and they much recognise that because they're looking to change the rules already and the irony of all of this is we were trying to improve ourselves to improve the Premier League and now who's going to improve their ground in this context it gets very challenging and very risky for anybody to do that so are these rules even working and aren't they just perpetuating the imbalances within football the gap within the Premier League how does it make it a more exciting product that I don't see that because the straight jacket it traps to use the words that the Chief Executive used the smaller clubs you know how do you ever break out of that and don't you just then trap the league in a system that is hard then to you know nobody can do a Leicester again or it would be very hard to do a Leicester wouldn't it and this regime becomes really baked in to the thing but as you say in their mad dash to show they can regulate they are about it would seem to hit one club twice in one season and another club once and then change the regime to align it with UEFA potentially in the summer so just how can that be right by all means punish Everton none of us have said don't have we no one has said that that is out of order but we are absolutely within our rights to say do it transparently and do it fairly and then consistently with what comes after and I think there is massive doubt about all of those things and you talk about the role of other decision makers in football politicians and others I mean it is where we have got to in Premier League football in 2024 decision making is shot to pieces on and off the pitch you can't celebrate a goal can you because you fear something is being manipulated behind the scenes and there is some I don't know can you have trust in this sort of industrial park somewhere wherever it is they are controlling whether you can celebrate a goal or not but then as we understand it from the timetable the Premier League has put out for these profit and sustainability rules nobody will be able to you can't celebrate Ducori scoring on the last season anymore because some other random bureaucrat is going to be deciding the final league placings about sort of a week or ten days after the end of the season where is the purity of the competition I never thought I would say it but I would totally get rid of VAR and go back to referees making decisions in the moment because if you are a referee on the pitch and you can at least know there is no extraneous things going through their mind just seeing it and giving it actually I thought VAR would be fairer and level up the playing field with decision making but it has done the opposite I prefer now to go back to people just making decisions in the instant because I think on balance you get a fairer treatment out of that than you do out of what we've got now I tend to agree with you because I think everything in football whether it's on the pitch or off the pitch is being taken to the ultimate limit now it's like because you can it's like in everything it's like because you can measure to the millimetre they are measuring to the millimetre on every single thing now the little bit of grace that anyone had in football whether as I said whether it's on the pitch or off the pitch seems to be removed now and they are looking for the absolute minimal details now to destroy our game and now absolutely my son was there and loads of loads of Evertonians travelled in there Thursday night for a start off to go down for an FA Cup game Thursday night a school night first week back for everybody that was bad enough wasn't it I think it was quarter to eight and then you get a situation like the one we saw ten minutes to go I mean what do they think that represents in terms of the treatment of those people who paid to get on that coach and go down there and then get back at and it would have been a coach because no one was getting back by rail what does that say to those people who are absolutely the heartbeat of the game aren't they getting back at four in the morning to have all of that taken off them because of a I don't know was it incompetence or was it I don't know I mean the danger for us all is we veer into like you know conspiracy we mustn't go there but my god we're owed some much more explanation for the situation we find ourselves in and just to have you know all of the game being decided by I don't know lawyers and god knows what Dave Kelly makes a good point you know we're all going to be transferred deadline day in the future is going to be done on chanceary lane with everybody outside you know we can sign the best KC for you know the fight for the rest of the season well you mentioned it before I mean if it plays out we could be finding out the Friday after maybe the last game of the season who's been relegated I mean that is that's what I mean what does that how is that anything for the Premier League you know in terms of like the last day present in the game with a big asterisk on it makes me ask you know a football people making these decisions in the Premier League or what or is this sort of you know what's happening here do they understand the reason why the Premier League is so popular because it's dramatic and it's vibrant and it's you know in the moment and that's what made it popular in the first place if you suck that spontaneity and that joy out of top flight English football you will kill what made it so-called the best league in the world well it really isn't heading in that direction right now is it people are watching matches sort of pondering the back room maneuverings that are going on and they're thinking about what lies behind that Everton thing and why the minute it's gone to that you're in a different place aren't you and they are really and this is why Everton's fight is everyone's fight every football suppose I should be concerned about this because what is actually guiding the game what are they doing where is the transparency the danger is once it's gone it's gone and that's the real risk they're playing with fire I think the Premier League in terms of the damage they risk doing to the game the chilling effect on decision making as you say if they really impact get inside every head of every owner and manager we're just going to end up with people being so cautious now that they won't you know won't invest they will be always looking over their shoulder and that will just drain the life out of Premier League football yeah I mean it used to be I mean obviously we could all just go the match and then suddenly we all had to become accountants to go the match now we have to be accountants and lawyers to go the match which is which is just terrifying just terrifying well plans to be the politician and having to go to the match imagine how that is because yeah we're involved that as well just going to ask you on that just a couple of more questions for you obviously we know there's a number of Labour MPs who have been very supportive on this is there MPs you don't have to name names obviously but is there MPs from other parties that have showed support from this but maybe haven't necessarily gone public with that yet yeah there are and you know without going through all the details I just think the person who conducted the fan-led review deserves credit Tracy Crouch she gets it and I think she's a real force for good and you know I think Tracy's done a really good job to be honest with the review and then what's come from the review but to be fair I thought the committee did a pretty good job and they asked some good good questions and that was MPs on both sides so you know I know as I say my profession gets a bad name at times but there are decent people on both sides who care who care about football and yeah I picked up a lot of worry to be honest so Ian Burn as you say has spoken out for us, Steve Rotherham you know credit to Steve gave up his Sunday morning recently to come down before the Villa game sat in the Spellow for an hour or two which is pretty brave when you're the copight in chief of the Liverpool city region but you know there's good support from people I'm amazed really how much I get people coming up to me saying God it isn't fair you know keep going keep asking the questions and that comes from a lot of quarters you know people have lots of different political persuasions so yeah maybe I pass that on just in case that gives people listening to the podcast some encouragement there's a lot of support for us out there even if everyone isn't making it publicly known I think people are you know kind of worried about what this means if a club like Everton are treated like this Well Ian Burn is my MP so I know he's a good fella just one final one just one final one for me just um you mentioned the letter that was sent in recently say Brendan the barber Mark Carney Dame Sue Owen you mentioned that it haven't got a lot of attracting in the media do you think that's one thing where Everton as a club or maybe I don't know on the outside of Everton we need someone to step up on our behalf I mean you're doing a brilliant job you're getting around different podcasts you're trying to get yourself on the news I mean you're trying to get yourself on the news that's if they'll show the clip but you think we need someone out there who will stand up and I know this is difficult for the club but just someone out there whether it be an ex-player someone with a little bit of kudos out there you can stand up and try and get that message across because I do think it's the one thing as a football club we're really missing and we all know there's obviously a lot of podcasts out there with you know a lot of ex-professionals whether it be Gary Linnaker or Gary Neville or whoever it is I think that's the one thing we're missing at the moment just that spokesman on our behalf you can cut through the noise and get this message across to people I can see why you asked the question for sure but the question would come what's the relationship with that person to the club and then immediately it could have implications with regard to what is an ongoing legal legal process so I think it's a difficult one and I think this comes back to everything that we've been talking about which is the lack of a clear regime that is guiding all of this because truthfully from what I know from people I speak to in the club they don't know where they stand in relation to what's going on things are being briefed to newspapers before being told to them you can't criticise them for feeling a bit worried then for how they something might be used against them might in it so who would that person be speaking for can the club speak in this process are they able to put their points of view out there other than to the appeal process so I think it's just a really unfair and unacceptable situation all round and it's one that we really shouldn't be and we shouldn't be going into the match always protesting should we and it's last days every single game should be a celebration now of Goodison Park what it's meant to English football not just to us but to English football this is the grandest of the last great old English grounds isn't it and yet they are shrouding it in protest and let's be clear about it they are doing this to us because of the way they are treating Everton football club it isn't right what they are doing I would be the first to say look if there was a regime that we understood and everyone knew about it well that's different but it isn't like that and I just don't feel they should be treating this club of ours like they are at this particular moment this particular moment in time so we'll keep coming on I think there's lots of us who are not just me there's lots of others who are speaking out and credit to Dame Sue, Sir Brendan and Mark Carney for getting out there their voice matters as well I just think we just got to keep keep pointing out how wrong this process is and I come back to it we're not saying there isn't a case to answer or some punishment is is justified just to start throwing it out there now that it might be a 10 point ban and a transfer ban I mean for the what effectively the same period or some of the none of it it feels right does it so credit to you and other podcasters we've just got to keep pointing out these discrepancies but where are you mainstream media step up and cover this properly this is about the future of English football you're conspicuous by your absence and by your silence absolutely absolutely it's about time they got some of us on to have a bit of a rant there you think these wonders going on having a bit of a rant wouldn't you I think Jamie Carragher said we had a debate about it online I don't know if you saw that and he said come on and I said I will no we invite yet I will go on and do it I did do the interview for Sky Sports news why is there a media blackout on this I think the media need to answer that question why where is the coverage that's it and they've got the power having the ultimately they can literally just keep us all in the dark it's important isn't it in my profession where there's live debates about things the media coverage illuminates things doesn't it and then it exposes a weakness or a loophole and then that's how the democratic process works but I don't see a democratic process here I see a secretive regulator doing things without justifying what it's doing with inconsistent potentially approaches to things and no one thinks that's a matter of public interest when this is the national sport we're talking about I just don't understand any of it to be honest I'll keep coming on these programs I do care about everyone and I get grief in Greater Manchester oh well you're doing this again but this is about the game isn't it and what is the game going forward and what's it about and will our kids enjoy it like we did as things stand know is the answer to that question yeah absolutely right just wanted to be fair that's all we want we just wanted to be fair and our game to move forward because I think also a lot of people are just really protective of the game as well we want the game to grow it's not always about just being Evan it's about looking at other situations that's not unfair and recognising it as well so I honestly think we could talk about this all night because there's so many facets of this which just leave you bewildered and scratching your head and obviously we've got to wait now probably till the back end of February to find out what the appeal is and obviously a lot of stuff will come off the back of that there's some hope before we go we've got a great manager haven't we yeah well listen we've actually got a game of footy this week and then there's Nefe Cup game and hopefully we can move forward and that always gives you hope doesn't it that always gives you hope it does and you know I see a squad of players here who've got more about them than we've had in recent times maybe that's the show and effect as well but they do don't they they're players that you can kind of get behind aren't they because you know they seem together to give a lot of themselves to games even if everything doesn't doesn't go to plan it the walls game is a real disappointment but maybe we would do one like that I don't know but I don't go into any game at the moment thinking as we did in the past well this is one you just got to grit your teeth and just accept the punishment it's not like that is it you still feel you can get things from games and that villa result was actually a really good result even though we didn't come out feeling like that so the progress we're making on the field in danger of missing it aren't we and I just worry a little bit they leave this cloud hanging over us all the time who's going to sign for us our players going to drift away that's another thing here isn't it they're just shrouding us in sort of controversy aren't they at the moment but let's be positive we've got a team that's worth watching we've got a manager that we can get behind there are positives aren't they yeah there are I suppose it's important not to carry that negativity into the ground because you're right what's going on in the pitch it's going alright and if we did have our 10 points back we'd be in a much healthier position I think we'd all be quite happy where the club was going but it's just that cloud isn't it just hanging over it covers everything and if we can get to the bottom of that and get away from that whatever way that unravels then give us some points back I think we'd all just be a little bit happier well I tried to do a big positive thing there at the end if we've lost 1-0 on Saturday night and Ross Barkley's got it then don't speak to me for a week that's fine because that's football isn't it that's football we know what football is we've done this all our lives we've had ups and downs it's the minute someone goes oh those points that you've won oh no you didn't actually win them I haven't gone this isn't our game anyway and I know what the clubs have suffered that and I know what the clubs are still suffering the likes of Redding and people like that but the minute someone it's not about what's going on in the pitch and the minute it's about something that's completely away from it and lawyers that's not football to me so if you get beat like you mentioned there Wolves got beat you have a debate why you got beat but as long as you're not bringing in you didn't have this play because we're not allowed to play because of this and oh yeah nonsense but Andy was absolutely great to have you on we'll stay in touch we'll keep ourselves updated with you as it proceeds let's keep this campaign going everybody absolutely credit to you for keeping it going but everyone else out there I think this is this is almost a bit of a defining fight in the future of Everton Football Club our parents grandparents and those who supported the club before us will be requiring us I think to be doing what we're doing and sticking together and speaking up for this great club of ours so let's keep tight together and keep it going there you go big thank you to Andy Bain for joining us to discuss all the latest on Everton and their 10 point deduction and the fight for football getting our game back and more importantly getting those points back make sure you're following Andy on twitter and keeping up to date with him fighting the good fight on Everton's behalf there you go make sure to give this video a like subscribe if you haven't already if you want more great videos join us over on toffee tv premiere for daily exclusive videos videos and podcasts 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