 What are you talking about? They ignored the department of justice. They did whatever the frick they wanted to. The government was ineffective and late and Microsoft just was like, oh, it's Windows. Remember they tried to do the Windows phone. It was idiotic. Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE pod. Cube guys, John and Dave. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante. We decided to do a podcast on Friday because Dave's popular breaking analysis is recorded on Friday. And he has a great job, ships out over the weekend. It gets massive traffic. It's a must listen to and a must read, much must watch podcast that breaking analysis does. So we thought, hey, you know, people want us to get more riffing on camera like the old days, Dave. So we're going to do a pod. This is our first pod cast. So it's not cube insights. It's just John and Dave, cube guys, the cube pod for people that know us and know theCUBE. We're going to just free wheel on topics that are hot this week and hot on our mind and things that we're watching. You know, maybe crazy guests come on, but we'll have some fun. This is, we'll see where it goes. But when we're doing it. How's it feel, John? This is like back to the future for you, right? You started this all. When did you start podcasting when nobody knew what that was? Well, I was at, I had a throwback moment last week at the Super Bowl weekend. I was down in Philly and I saw Paul Martino, Dave. And Paul Martino is a successful entrepreneur, investor. Now he runs his own VC firm. He started a venture called Bankroll Club, which is open for friends. I went down there to watch with the Philly fans. They were all disappointed with the game, but he introduced me as one of the pioneers in podcasting. So I asked Chat GPT, who were the original pioneers in podcasting, venture back companies? And it actually gave the answer. I was in there, Evan Williams was in there, founder of Twitter and Adam Curry of Pod Show were the first venture back companies. But really those original pioneers were Dave Wine, a bunch of other folks. We're all kind of hanging out together in 2004 and five blogging and podcasting 2005 was my first podcast was with Dave Hodson. Just sold this company to Microsoft and he's been now Microsoft, then he went to Google, now he invests. But yeah, it's been a long time. And I was interviewing VCs back then and entrepreneurs in 2005 and raised venture capital and went belly up in 2009, 2007 is when I stepped down as CEO or forced to step down. But yeah. What happened? Why did, what happened with podcasting? Right? Did it die? But I mean, it kind of did, it was like a long winter and then it's exploded back. And now you do a spot. Well, look, as the saying goes in Silicon Valley, the early people that hit the wall first have the arrows on their back or get bloody, as they say, the first people through the wall are the bloodiest. We all went out because there's no business model. It was 15 years too early, but the vision was to build a podcast that was successful. I had a podcast that at one point had a million downloads on the front page of iTunes and then all the big mainstream media jumped in NPR and they just recycled their audio from their shows and instantly became popular on iTunes. So all the amateurs went out of business and even Mark Cuban who has a podcast now said, it'll never work, it's labor of love. I interviewed him. In fact, his first podcast ever was done by me. So that podcast was interesting. I interviewed Steve Forbes, all the VCs, Bluminaries, had a very popular podcast and I started a network and I asked chat GPT why it failed. It was interesting and they actually got it right. There was no early market wasn't moving and bad leadership on my part and financial difficulties, which means there was no real business model. Although we did the first ever corporate podcasting, Cisco, all the top B2B companies in the Valley, we did podcasts for us. It was great. Wasn't Seagate a big customer too? Wasn't it? Seagate? Seagate? Seagate? That blew me away, they make disk drives but they were into the podcast. Well hey, more MP3s were fat files, more sell more drives, get the video up there. Absolutely, 100%. Yeah. So what's happening? You know, Mobile World Congress coming up in a couple of weeks, excited about that. We got a big set there. You know, I've only, you used to do Mobile World Congress every year. I've only been once in COVID year. Let's get into your breaking analysis after we talk about Mobile World Congress because Mobile World Congress is going to be interesting this year. For the folks listening, remember today we went back to Mobile World Congress for the first time during the pandemic when nobody was really there. Now this year it's packed. We're going to have a huge set there. Again, our second Mobile World Congress with theCUBE. This one much bigger, much more glammed up. A lot more great interviews on this one. And it's going to be a million dollar set. It's going to be kick ass. So I'm looking forward to the broadcast. But Mobile World Congress is moving from a telecom show to a cloud show. And that's really the big story. Edge computing is hot as it is, is going to be the best thing going on. And Edge computing, whether you're Amazon, Google, Microsoft or whoever is going to require more routers, more gear, everybody wins with the Edge. And the telcos are playing too. So look at Amazon's recent announcements. Wave length, we got satellites. There is so much pressure on the Edge right now. And that's going to change the game. And cloud native is going to roll right into the Edge with the really good products. Kubernetes clusters, containers. So you're going to see the cloud native movement intersect with telco and cause a massive innovation disruption. So I think that's the scratching the surface story. The real story is going to be how fast are the old solutions going to move over to the cloud? So I think it's not going to be a smashing in terms of revolutionary things, but it's going to be, it's going to definitely be the beginning of what will be a complete transformation. Well, you know, GSMA renamed the show from Mobile World Congress. It's not Mobile World Congress anymore. It's MWC because they're trying to sort of rebrand, the reason they rebrand it because it's more than just wireless and mobile connectivity. It's industry change, it's startups, it's innovation. Yeah, it's infrastructure, it's cloud. It's AI, it's private networks, apps and ecosystems. They did a deal with FC Barcelona. They got all kinds of public policy and government action going on. And so it's going to be big show. 80,000 people, which is lower. I think it's not, they're not back to their pre-pandemic highs, but 80,000 people is still pretty big at 2000 exhibitors. And you know, the FEDA is going to be packed. So I'm pretty psyched. I mean, I think the story that's really going on this discussion is that back to face to face, Dave, is really the big story with this event. You're going to see everyone come back. RSA is going to be an event coming up, face to face, it should be packed. The big events are coming back. The big trade shows are coming back. I think the pandemic now, almost three years has taught us that face to face is really valuable. And this whole asynchronous world was going to take over. It's actually not going to happen fully, but a bit will be hybrid for sure. In other news today, actually hitting today, Amazon CEO Andy Jassy ironically was chatting with him last night about one medical company that they bought and my daughter Caroline is going to do an internship there, but he's in the news today. He just sent out a memo to the entire Amazon culture and company update from Andy Jassy and return to office. Essentially in the Jassy way, he lays out very good case for why they experimented with different approaches, but the net net is they're going back to the office three days a week. And, you know, face to face collaboration is going to be important. And of course, you and I always talk about having people in the office and we think that's great for chemistry and teamwork. Some jobs are great for remote, but like if you're inventing stuff, and this is just premises that you got to be face to face. So events where there's networking and real discovery going on, face to face is the best. It's best for sales. It's best for companies to exhibit best for the parties and networking and learning and meeting people. So, you know, I think we're going to see a slingshot back to face to face in a massive way this year on the, with the headwinds of a recession, it's going to be very interesting to see how that plays out, Dave, because, you know, events are expensive and a lot more than virtual events, as you know. So, you know, I think some people will be happy, but we'll see what do you think about that? Well, you know, it's interesting because there's a spectrum, right? When you talk to people like Michael Dell and Frank Slutman, they're like, like for instance, Snowflake moved its headquarters to Bozeman, Montana. And the only reason why it says Bozeman, Montana, and the press releases is actually the STC requires you to have a headquarters, but they have no headquarters, essentially. Although in talking to Slutman, he said, but we do require people to be in the office so they have a more of a hybrid model at certain times. And so, and I think Dell is maybe even further away from that where they say, hey, you want to be remote? Be remote. I know I was talking to Dennis Hoffman the other day, he was calling in from Wyoming. He's running the whole telco business. And so, he's going to sweater, he's probably, you know, ready to hit the slopes. And so, I mean, you know, it's, I don't know, it's going to be interesting to see. I think it really is dependent upon the culture. I think, you know, Amazon's got a culture that's more, a little bit more draconian than I think, obviously, some of the other companies, but you know, Dell, Michael Dell for you. Jassy's always been about face to face. And he's talked to me about that and you on theCUBE when, you know, people are not in the office, you know, riffing on the white board, it's different, dynamic with virtual, right? So, you know, I think it's- I go to the office every day, John. I mean, I am way more productive in the office. I can't work at home and my dog's barking, you know, kids are, I mean, kids are older, but still, they're home. Hey, how you doing? You know, my wife, Deb, awesome. Love spending time. You can take a nap when you're at home. You can take a nap when you're at home. I can take a nap in the office if I, you know, you know, I fly a lot of red eyes. I'll come in. I've seen you in the chairs passed out. I'll take a nap. I don't know how you do that. You have a couch in there. All right, so let's get into this recession discussion because the big story I think that's on my mind is obviously the chat GPT, the Bing fiasco, the recession that we're in, the spending cutbacks we're seeing, the startups that overfunded or are recapping, interesting. I mean, Dave, this is a real problem. I think you're seeing a lot of digital transformation not slowing down or at least somewhat slowing down but not getting killed by this recession. The startups and the companies are getting killed. The spending for startups that are overfunded, Stripe, I'm just reading in the news today, it's gonna, needs to raise $4 billion to cover the bill that they're repricing their stock options because of the, they didn't go public, okay? Or modifying the stock options for the public offering, pre-public. So they didn't factor in that right up. A lot of companies are doing down rounds, okay? So that's going to cause productivity problems. Yes, they had a down round. They were down with only 12%, right? I mean, you know, you were talking about layoffs. I talked to one company this week, Arctic Wolf Networks. They haven't had a layoff, which is kind of interesting because I mean, every company is laying people off. We haven't had a layoff, but most companies have. Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's going to be very, very interesting to see. And then also, will the crypto winter get completely crushed from the FTX? We're seeing a lot of people kind of shifting from crypto to AI because the chat GPT open AI thing. So it's raging to see the alpha nerds move from crypto to the AI. In fact, some people are saying that crypto is going to come back because it is more of a infrastructure shift, paradigm shift than data. And I don't necessarily agree with that. I think the data infrastructure is going through radical, real transformation that's providing value. This whole centralized, decentralized thing, I think still has some time to saute and bake out, but AI is booming. And I think open AI, open the floodgates and open everybody's eyes that isn't in the industry about how awesome AI is now evolving to with large scale cloud, decoupling from hardware, software systems, new architectures around handling large scale data. So I think we're in an inflection point around how data is going to shift into the AI because now with cloud growth, as you know, we've been covering the data infrastructure for big data since 2010, Dave. This is the moment for AI. This is going to be a 20 year run. I think this is the beginning, even though that there's a lot of controversy around Bing, which we'll get into, but AI is, this is not over, people. I don't think, I mean, it's not, to me it's not either or with AI. I still believe in the basic crypto premise that you and I have been talking about for years, which is the fundamental infrastructure that runs the internet is based on protocols that were developed, you know, whatever 30, 40 years ago and have been co-opted by the big internet giants. And there's a lot of really interesting developers doing great work in crypto. Yeah, there's a lot of scams, of course, I get it. But, you know, that fundamentally there's some real innovation going on. And I'm still a believer. I think, you know, people say, you know, they poo poo Bitcoin, oh, it's not a real currency. Well, I don't know what makes the dollar piece of paper with a greenback, you know, worth something. It's because the U.S. is behind it. Well, if enough people in the community are believing Bitcoin, it's going to survive. And in my opinion, it will. Because remember, Bitcoin started in response to the financial crisis, it was a big FU to government printing money. And banks just, you know, selling crappy, you know, packages of loans. And so if enough people out there believe in it, you know, it's going to have value that you can't just print Bitcoin. And so I'm still a believer, but even beyond that, you've been to more crypto shows than I have. You meet the people there, the mission-driven, they're actually doing some really interesting work and security and blockchain and smart contracts. So I still believe, particularly high on Ethereum still, I think solidity as a programming language is going to get embedded into a lot of DevOps tool chains as is AI. Yeah, I mean, let me look at the fraud market killed. We know, we talked about this all the time on theCUBE. Fraud killed the real crypto market, the real infrastructure shift, I'd my opinion. The shit coins and all the fraud around coins were just terrible. I mean, and I think it's going to be a two-year hold. I really do. I don't think it's going to, I don't think anything's going to happen for two years. I think it's going to be stuck on the map. As opposed to that internet, as opposed to that internet, which had no, nothing fraudulent about, you know, 2000 internet, you know, CMGI and all that nonsense. Hey, you're going to the well. Well, everything that happened on the internet happened anyway. Pat's food is online, you can deliver your groceries. I mean, it all happened. Exactly. I mean, the premise was, yeah, you know, that's dot com. I mean, I get, I get chewy every, every other week. My, we got a big chewy delivery. It just didn't, the economics weren't there back in the day. I mean, it's exactly, it's exactly right. The internet and the internet and crypto are going to have the same pattern. Okay. And I think you're, that's exactly right. It's going to be, you know, it's going to be a winter, you know, time. And it's all going to get back on the saddle again. It clears through the system. It's like, And I think chat GPT, you said this at, right after our super, our super cloud, actually at our super cloud event. You were saying it was like your Netscape moment. A lot of people have since said that. And I agree. You know, maybe it is somewhat overhyped right now, but it is a, this is a sea change. I mean, it's, I think it's amazing. I think if you're a writer, if you're a good writer, chat GPT can make you better. And if you're a crappy writer, chat GPT can make you better. Yeah. I mean, if we, if you fee, I think first of all, we'll, I'll add to the thing that you're right. If you can feed the chat GPT original content like we have and original thoughts, if you're smart, it'll do good work for you. If you just ask as a general query, that's what people are using it wrong right now. They're trying to compare it to Google search, although a good comparison because it's a paradigm shift, but it's totally shittier than Google search from an accuracy standpoint, but better from a user experience standpoint to the point where, you know, you can go dark with it too, like the journalist did this week, the New York Times guy was, you know, he blasted through the hype cycle, was glowingly writing about it and then had an experience where he got freaked out and he was went negative. So the credibility of people evaluating AI right now is, is interesting because the people who are so-called writing about it aren't even, don't even know what AI is, right? So, so they get excited by the user experience and then they have a bad one and they shit on it. So Dave, this is a problem. I mean, Paul Graham pointed this out, founder of Y Combinator that, you know, and he was referring to startups, mainly that there's not going to be a plethora of startups around AI because you got to actually know what you're talking about and code differently and it requires certain horsepower. So he's kind of right, but I also apply that to the journalists, right? The journalists, mainstream journalists out there, they don't know what they're talking about and most of them don't and so that's a big problem. So, but I do like how it's getting a lot of amplification because it mainstreams AI and it gets people excited about it and it moves it out from inside the ropes to the market. And I think Paul Graham's wrong about the startups coming out. I think you're going to see tooling and you're going to see platforms come out with data infrastructure that's going to create AI startups faster and if you look at all the stuff we're reporting on this week and you'll see this roll out in videos over the next two weeks, there's an iPhone, Android kind of vibe going on where you've got proprietary AI models, foundation models with tied to hardware and then you got open source now booming that's decoupled from hardware. So the hardware in the GPU side is going to be the determinant on cost. So to me, I think the pace of AI is going to be based upon how fast the hardware advancements can align with the machine large models because it's going to be expensive and whoever can reduce the inference costs and all these computations is going to be the winner and that's where the money will go because it's hard as hell to do these things with real time AI inferencing is going to be amazing. I mean, okay, it's early days and the avatar thing, the Reddit posts on Bing, they're funny and so yeah, you could sort of think these systems out but I mean, the potential is enormous and to your point about real time AI, I mean, there's so many use cases and fraud detection and streaming and I mean, it's endless. I mean, things you can do in hospitals and in entertainment venues and oil and gas. I mean, it's just, you know, and then you combine that with what we're talking about before on MWC, you know, private wireless and 5G networks that are basically going to bypass the telco networks and get installed and you see the cloud guys do that and doing a reach around there. I mean, it's just, it's going to be game changing and AI is going to be right at the heart of it. You know, Nier Zook said this on theCUBE. He said, you know, AI may not be taking your job but within five years, virtually everything you do will be powered by AI. Yeah, I love the AI and I think it's people who are putting it down right now really don't understand that this is just the beginning. Like it's not even first ending AI yet and that these large language models can integrate well. It's talking to Amar Awadal, the founder of Cloudera. He's got a startup and we had some experts in here from KubeCon, Neural Magic XMIT. We got the neural network crowd, get the large language model, we got foundation models. We had the Madrona Venture Capital's former Amazonian from AWS in here, did IoT, which knows about big data. They're all pointing out to the fact that unlike old AI and old data, the integration of data is critical and it's easier to take a large language model and one put it on hardware that's usable and lower cost but integrating in other data is easier and that's a big part of it. You're going to start to see that fusion and that's where all the smart money's pointing at right now and saying don't count out this trend. Now, the laughable thing about the Bing integration of open AI is that it's trying to make it like personable and what happened is it had a dark moment where it was gaslighting the users and it was like, it was pretty incredible, Dave. And you pointed out a few articles I didn't read but the New York Times had a big story on it and there was some other stories around it where it just went, if you just query it the right way it just goes super dark and weird. It was hilarious. I mean, you've entered a time machine and you went back in time and they were arguing and the chat GPT was a Bing was arguing about the date. It was just, it was, it was hilarity and getting really stupid but I guess, you know what? Here's what I want to say about all. I want to bring it around to public policy because I think it was earlier this week, the lone Republican I think on the FTC resigned. I think it was a Trump appointee and it was interesting backlash. The Wall Street Journal had an article sound of ripping Lena Khan who has obviously has an agenda. The other end of the spectrum said, oh, you know, monopolies are bad. You should take them apart. All this stuff, I will tell you this. To me, chat GPT and all this generative AI it represents a real disruption. It's why Google went cold, code red. You know, you've seen all these articles. My point is this, that market forces have, market forces have been much more successful at disrupting big tech historically than has the government. I'm not saying a monopoly shouldn't be regulated. They should, but you saw that medium article this week where the gentleman was writing about how messed up Google is because it's a culture of don't piss anybody off. Make sure that everybody loves you as opposed to, you know, being customer driven. And so, these are just- He's right about Google, by the way. He was right about Google. The point is these are the things that disrupt companies. These things, competitors, blind spots. You know, look at how long it took Microsoft to regain its mojo. You're telling me Amazon can't get disrupted? It absolutely can. I mean, there are dozens of ways it can get disrupted. So, I just, I'm always cautious when I see, you know, the government come in and try to, you know, micromanage markets. Again, I'm not saying if companies are breaking the law, like by the way, I believe Microsoft was with how it dealt with Netscape and its bundling or the government was just too slow, but ultimately the markets were the determinant of the disruption. Microsoft crushed Netscape, and we'll get back to that in a second, but I will say that Google article was right. We'll reference that in the show notes. But Google owns search. That's their bread and butter. It's the cash cow. It's like Facebook. I mean, Facebook, everything, trying Facebook tries to do something in can't. It's got to buy companies. Google's the same way. It all has is a money machine called ad business. And Facebook has their money machine called targeting and using people's data against them. So, Google is going to get targeted and they are being targeted for as a monopoly. But the best thing for their case that they're not a monopoly was what Microsoft gave them with two weeks ago, which is the gift, open AI. So, Google says, what do you mean competition? We've got competition right here. It's called Microsoft. Now, I think that was a gift that Microsoft gave. Now, back to Microsoft, Satya Netella, the CEO said, he kind of stole my line with the Netscape browser moment. He actually used the wrong browser. He said mosaic. It's a mosaic moment. And by design, I guarantee you, I guarantee you that the head of communication said, there's no way you're going to say, it was a Netscape moment because they killed Netscape, right? And so, and ironically, Yusuf Mehdi, who was the marketing manager for IE Internet Explorer 3, gave the presentation. He's the one who led the team that killed Netscape. So, it was ironic that Yusuf Mehdi was giving the presentation and Satya Netella mentioned the mosaic moment. So, I was laughing on Twitter. I said, oh, mosaic moment, not the Netscape moment, because if you remember, they bundled the OS, the browser, their first browser, Internet Explorer 3 into Windows, okay? And then distributed to all their users they had a monopoly on, and then tied that software and had contracts for closing Netscape in the deal. And they did get caught. And it was, I don't think it was a monopoly move. I just, I mean, that should have been breaking up Microsoft, but that Department of Justice investigation on Microsoft, in my opinion, made Google happen. Because without Microsoft's sideways, they mis-search, okay? They had MSN, they had the number one search engine, they had, they had died. I totally disagree, there's no, the government to me was a small factor. I think it was, that Microsoft was myopic and hooked on the Windows crack, just like you're saying Google's hooked on the ads crack. No, I totally disagree. They would have used their monopoly power to get search, Google never would have made it. What are you talking about? They ignored the Department of Justice. They did whatever the frig they wanted to. The government was ineffective and late. And Microsoft just was like, oh, it's Windows. And remember they tried to do the Windows phone. That was idiotic, the thing was a pig. All right, so you, they did, they mis-search and they missed the phone. We can debate about that for another hour if you want. They missed the cloud until Nadella came along. Right, I mean, okay, and here's what I'm saying. So, you know, judge, I want to bring it back to public policy and I know it's kind of wonky, but Judge Bork, who's hardcore, you know, right wing, but he basically wrote the ruling that said that the standard for monopoly behavior is, is you got to show that it hurts the consumer. And so, but Lena Kahn's coming in with a new standard. And restrict competition. And restrict competition. And restrict competition. Exactly, and Lena Kahn is coming in with a new standard which says, has the potential. That's why she wants Facebook to do no acquisition. My point is this, John. So, so even if, even if Microsoft was, was stopped from doing internet explorer and bundling, it wouldn't have friggin' mattered because they would have blown it anyway. Netscape at the time, Jim Barksdale said, oh, it doesn't matter, because we're going to do enterprise apps anyway. These companies have just made mistake after mistake after mistake. And so, my point is markets are what disrupts and competition is what disrupts. And the less government, my view, involvement, the better, unless they're breaking the law. Okay, that's how I feel about it. Okay, by the way, Netscape had the lead and I would argue that I think Microsoft was highly effective of throwing into windows. I mean, it was just a dagger. And I think Netscape knew that they couldn't compete and they were kind of groping and they did jump on the enterprise bus which I thought was terrible. But remember, they had NetCenter which was their search engine, home.netscape.com. That was the first portal by that default and they had all that traffic. So, you know, Netscape had search, they had the browser, they had a moment there. But Google, Google by the way, wasn't that popular except for inside certain circles of the industry when, in 1999, 2000, when everyone was going portals, if you remember that. So that was kind of, again, another- Altavista, Altavista was the best search engine going and it was actually created by a company called Digital Equipment Corporation which anybody under 40 probably has never even heard of. And the reason why they launched Altavista Digital is because they wanted to show off their supercomputer chops and they had no idea what to do with it. And then Yahoo bought it and turned it into a shitty portal. Okay, so, well, not to change subjects but I want to ask you your opinion. What do you think about Andy Jackson's memo about forcing everyone back into the office? Good, bad? Personally, I like it because I'm in the office face-to-face type of individual. I do think it has potential backlash but I don't think he cares. I think they want to have a culture of collaboration and face-to-face. You know, I think, you know this, a lot of people just, the Amazon rejects the organ sometimes and you got to have, you got to love the leadership principles, you got to drink the Kool-Aid or you're not a good fit. So I think it's okay for Amazon. I don't think it applies to a lot of companies. I mentioned Dell, I mentioned Snowflake and a number of others that I think remote is the right or hybrid is the right model for them. I will say this, John. I do think there has to be planned face-to-face. I think those companies that get that right are going to be more productive. I want to ask you about earnings season. We just had the big tech companies ran earnings, we ran stories on siliconangle.com. We had commentary, Dave, you did a breaking analysis on some of that. All the big guys showed numbers down but you know, some numbers were up. You saw Cisco, Cisco had good guidance. So, and they beat, they grew 6%, 7% in revenues and they beat, you know, by 179 million in the top line. You know, a couple points, a couple cents on the EPS. So, you know, Cisco, John, you know, to me has always been a bellwether. I was actually really excited to see that. Yeah, I didn't see that coming. I got to say, I thought they were going to have another couple quarters of hits with the supply chain and the cloud growth but it looks like they're doing great. So, you had that earnings, you had Microsoft, you had Amazon, cloud growth seems to be slowing. We have Fitsi over there, the Platform Nomics reporting today. Charles Fitzgerald, Fitsi had a great post today about EPS creation. So, cloud growth is slowing but as he points out, rightfully so, the data center growth is slow too. So, overall market secular wins are kind of had headwinds for the industry. I just did an interview with someone who's in the Kubernetes world in the cloud native area and the edge is forecasted to be very big focus this year so, in growth. So, if edge comes online, Dave, what happens to that growth? Is that going to be impacted by the recession or do you see edge? So, cloud providers aren't growing as fast. Okay, but they have higher revenue basis. So, still numbers aren't bad. I mean, you know. Well, let's look at, let's talk about the numbers. So, I just wrote about this. I have the full year revenue estimates at 160 billion for the big four cloud guys, AWS, Azure, GCP and Alibaba, 160 billion. And so, and I got them growing at 21% in 2023 combined. Now, remember the overall market is forecast to grow at 4 to 5%. So, the cloud, the hyperscale is growing 5x the overall market and they're huge, right? And I don't know whose numbers you look at but probably, I don't know, 20% of the workloads are in the cloud. Everything else is on-prem. Your point about the edge I think is really interesting. And I think that's where a big, big disruption is coming. We talked earlier about AI inferencing, I think new semiconductor technologies. You know I'm high on ARM. I think we called Intel's problems in 2011, 2012 when PC volumes peaked. I think ARM has won the volume game and I think it's going to win at the edge. And I think new low-cost architectures are going to come out and they could very well disrupt even the cloud. Now, of course, guys like Amazon have embraced ARM with the Anapurno acquisition and the other hyperscalers have followed suit. And so they're trying to bring their model to the edge but I feel like it's really right for disruption with all this 5G and wireless network, private wireless, O-RAN. I think others can come out of the woodworks to really disrupt the existing model and the pendulum. I think swinging back to distributed systems. So I think the analysis is right on the money and I would add that to bring repatriation back in on 50's post is that he calls it repatriation patriot, also called repatriate. I thought that was a clever play on words because he's good at that. If you look at the edge, Dave, and I had an interview this morning I did, I'm going to release it soon. And we talked about old DevOps and new DevOps. We're now in enough history of infrastructure as code where you kind of start to see the pattern of old ways of doing DevOps where my guest actually said that HashiCorp's Terraform is old, okay? And inadequate and that's interesting because they're HashiCorp's considered very sexy company for DevOps fanatics and fans like us. So if you look at the DevOps, there's now a new lens, a new DevOps vision. And if you look at some of the architectural changes with edge, you've got public cloud, on-premise cloud, and now you have edge cloud, you just mentioned that. That's three separate cloud operating environments acting as a unified infrastructure, AKA super cloud, okay? So let's just take this for a second. If you believe that to be the architecture that have happening, then you got to believe that repatriation is the antithesis of that trend because the purpose of repatriation is to take stuff off the cloud and bring it on-premise and run it on-premise versus the cloud to save money. But that kind of conflicts with the idea of having an architecture that includes public cloud on-premise and edge. It's not about repatriation, it's about the replatforming. So the question, Dave, is repatriation bullshit? Yes. Or is it just, is what I said true? Yes, it's completely bullshit. I mean, it's happening in little teeny pockets but it doesn't show up in the numbers. So people always whispering, hey, as an analyst, hey, you should check out that repatriation trend. I see IDC gets paid to do a white paper on repatriation. It's just, it doesn't show up in the numbers. Sorry to my friends at IDC. I've reported on this many times, the repatriation myth, I think fits you as well. But I will say this, talking about the telco transformation, I do think that the cloud is a real threat. And you know this, we talked about this at the, you know, 2021 at Mobile World Congress. The cloud is a real threat to the telcos even though some are partnering with them. The cloud can put in its own networks. And so I think the telcos are actually going to look toward this sort of maybe hybrid model where companies like Dell or HPE or Cisco can take this converged like infrastructure for the telco stack and actually do pretty well with it at the edge. And so, you know, that's a big opportunity. I don't think it's all going to go to the cloud. Yeah, I'll comment on your comment about the, that piece there about Mobile Con the telcos, but the repatriation, you're right on the money. I agree with you on that. And in fact, I compare the repatriation narrative to the great resignation narrative. Okay, remember that Dave, the great resignation, people are res, we're going to be resigning. Well, no, they didn't resign, they got laid off. There's been 150,000 layoffs in tech in this past month. Okay. Yeah. And just but a month earlier, it was a great resignation. People were, no, they weren't resigning. It was just, it was fraudulent, a trend. It's a symptom of this rubber band economy that we're in where, you know, I liken it to when you're driving down the M4 in England and then all of a sudden you, you put in the brakes, there's all this traffic and then it opens up. You're like, oh, we're good. You're going 70, 80 miles an hour again. All of a sudden you stop and you start like, like rubber banding. And that's what's happening in the economy. And look at, you know, look at Amazon, Andy Jassy announced, I think it was 10,000 layoffs at Thanksgiving. And then by January, it was 18,000 and because visibility is just so poor. And so, you know, that's why the Cisco earnings were really interesting to me. I'm excited to see snowflake to see, you know, what kind of earnings they have. I presume it's going to be kind of consistent with the cloud, but maybe not. And then, you know, peer storage is another, you know, sort of, you know, niche, but I'm interested to see what they come up with their announcing soon. And the software guys, the software guys, they were just so overhyped. And so, you know, a lot of them, you know, Datadog got hammered, even though I thought that it wasn't so bad. So I don't know, even Microsoft, I know, you know, they got- Splunk had a big layoff. Their earnings weren't as good. I mean, look at Dave, the bottom line is the Fed is trying to keep a soft landing, right? I think the overfunded market is going to get leveled down. So we're definitely going to be in those overfunded. I think it's a Series A market right now. Startup should be hot right now. And the big company's going to lay everyone off and clean the fat out while it's trendy. And then, you know, VC's going to lower their prices. So, I mean, the value of companies will drop. So it's a buyer's market from a venture capital standpoint. And, you know, the latest stage guys are going to get hammered. So- And M&A, and M&A balance sheets, thanks to the, thanks to free money for two years or more, balance sheets are pretty good. Even Dell had to eat all that debt to buy EMC. They're back to investment grade. So, I mean, I think you're going to see a lot of really interesting M&A activities going on, especially in cybersecurity. I mean, you know, there's some, there's going to be some good values out there, I think. And you look at like what Tomor Bravo is doing and Vista, I mean, insight, capital, they've been buying up cybersecurity firms for a while now and they're building up their portfolios, just waiting for the markets to come back. The, a lot of events coming up, I want to bring up the event we're doing on May, I mean, in March 8th, International Women's Day, we're going to be doing a feature on amazing women leaders in tech. You know, we've got Teresa Carlson, former Mike Kristoff coming on, Lena Smart from MongoDB, Rachel Thornton, former CMO of AWS, message bird, Anna Green from, a heads Asia Pacific for AWS, Nancy Wang from AWS, to Nuju Randery from AWS. We got HPE executive coming in, the senior vice president, Sue Barasamian, and former HPE down board members, and a bunch more coming in. Yeah, great line, John. Wow, Sue's fantastic. She was, she ran HPE security business. Nancy was in my office at the end of last year with Wayne Duso. We were doing shots before our recording, don't tell anybody. Rachel Mutisharo, it's coming in, she runs America's field. So we have representation of women, I think we're going to have these features where Rachel Thornton's going to do a mentoring sponsorship, kind of masterclass. We're going to kind of do cube interviews with kind of a masterclass vibe, because it's so powerful. We got, Sue is going to do a thing on boards, how to get more seats at the table. It should be really inspiring, so I'm really excited by that. Also, we're going to have for our sixth consecutive year, seventh consecutive year, the Women in Data Science at Stanford University. Again, with Judy Logan and the team there, that's been an incredible organization. That grew to a worldwide organization, and our CUBE alumni database day for women in tech is up to like, it's almost 1700 women. It's pretty amazing, so I think we're going to see a lot more content coming out of that for sure. I mean, that's awesome. As many folks know, we've always been passionate about women in tech. From the very first CUBE gig ever, at EMC World in 2010, you held an amazing session, celebrating women. We've been supporters of the Grace Hopper event. You and I funded the fellowship with Charlie Sennett when he was at the Global Post, and training the next generation of journalists, and we did that around Grace Hopper. So, I think, and we can do more. And I was talking to John Chambers about this, and he's like, yeah, but I still give this industry a C, and we need to be in A, and okay, fine, I have no problem being hard on us. It is a C, I mean, the numbers, I mean, if you look at our CUBE interview guest numbers, it almost lines up, it's just over the percentage, it's like 20%, 19% women. That actually almost maps directly to the number. So yeah, a lot more work to do. I'm just checking out SiliconANGLE site here, and I got a lot of good comments on Facebook whether we can maybe get into it, but just checking off the news and the trends. The Bing chat bot was key. Still funding rounds, Dave, still seeing seed rounds. Seed rounds, north of 15 million, okay? And I saw one as high as almost 30 million. There's a block chain, grain chain just got funded. This is agricultural block chain, which I think is a compelling use case for a block chain because of the immutability of managing supply. The open AI just posted a blog post from Sam Ultman, who's the CEO. Because it went rogue, they had this whole policy, they're totally virtue signaling, like, oh, no, we have a policy, and he gets this long memo after the bizarre chat behavior with Bing. They just issued a statement. It was really, I thought it was pretty, I mean, it was informative, but it was really more like to keep the government off their back probably, but it was just like, we're on top of it, we're going to stay down. I thought it was more virtue signaling than anything else. Some other news, Susan Wojciki is stepping down from YouTube, CEO, didn't Google start in her garage or was it Esther's garage? I think it was her sister, and she dated Sergei. That was the big cost-percent, I don't know if that's public. DocuSign laid off 700, DocuSign 700 layoffs. Datadog, we talked about that. They beat their growth, but the stock got crushed. I kind of like Datadog, so good stuff on SiliconANGLE. That's where I go for my quick news scans. Yeah, Datadog is a company that's just, they're a weird company. They've never been on theCUBE, and one of my friends was a seed investor over there. We know they're pretty well, they're not really media friendly. We'll see. You brought up policy, did you see that the House Judiciary Committee said in subpoenas that Facebook, Google, Metta, and Amazon? Yeah, I mean the government is going after big tech. We got balloons flying over the United States from China. China's a very serious AI threat but, I just say to the government, be careful what you wish for. There's national defense interest that you got to balance with your dogma. Let markets do their thing, believe me. Amazon, Google, even Microsoft, you feel like they're invincible. They're not invincible. They're full of hubris. They think they're, you know, what doesn't stink. They got blind spots. You know, they're bigger and slower. You know, it's Clay Christensen. Those rules still apply, so let markets play out. If they're breaking the law, they should be punished. Yeah, Dave, you know, everyone knows my rap on the government. I think we got bigger fish to fry. I think the markets will shake things out. I do agree with you there. You're a little bit hardcore on the tech companies. Typical East Coast mentality. Ha ha, you know, not living on the West Coast. They're all good people out here, trust me. But the issue with the government, they got bigger fish to fry. National security, Dave, is huge. You saw the explosion in Ohio this week. Real chemical poison in the air, in the water table. You know, that derailed train. Is that, I come in conspiracy theory all the time. That jumps out at me. It's like, train derailment, toxic poison in the water table. Is that a little paper cut from below the red line kind of situation? Our government has got national security issues. And people who make the laws and enforce them are mostly lawyers, none of them really. And I have a good clue about tech. Hopefully the new generation will solve that. But national security, cyber warfare, our doctrine needs to be changed. The line, the red line of when they cross that. People are operating underneath it. Banks, hacks, it's all been happening. And I think, you know, I believe that a lot of the crisis in this country has to do with foreign manipulation. We saw the elections, see other things. It's all going to come out in the open. I mean, this is going to be, it's going to be, I think the next five years is going to be like, the lights are going to get turned on. And we're like, oh, that's Russia. That's China. That's the open source came from here. That's why supply chain on software is big right now. Supply chain hardware is huge. China is huge. Russia, it's all going to come out. It's all going to be the next five years. I think we need a better public-private partnership in tech. I think there's no question about it. And you know, I have no problem. If the government came to big tech and said, look, you guys got to collaborate on cybersecurity and we got to attack this problem together. Let's partner on that. I would have no problem if the government said, okay, Apple, you know, you got to, you got to give some supply to Intel. If we're going to put $50 billion into building, you know, factories in the US for semiconductors, then Facebook and Apple and Google and Amazon and Microsoft, you got to put some cash, take some cash off your balance sheet, you're swimming in cash, you got to put some dough into skin in this game too. Let's partner up on that. I mean, I think there's so many things that governments and big tech could be doing together as opposed to, I'm sorry, I'm not a huge Lena Kahn fan. Her just coming in with an agenda, trying to just take out big tech. I think it's just, I think it's bad for the country. I think it's misplaced. I'm not saying that big tech shouldn't, you know, be watched closely if they're breaking the law, but show me where they're breaking the law. I'm not saying they're not, but focus on that. Not on what might happen if Facebook acquires some company that nobody's ever heard of. I mean, it's, you know, because they did it with WhatsApp or they did it with Instagram and okay, the markets will ultimately take care of that. You know, I had a great shot with Jay Carney when he was SVP of comms at AWS, our Amazon, for Jeff Bezos. He then hence left and gone to Airbnb because someone got promoted over him. I think that was the dynamics there, but he used to be the press secretary for Obama and he had a chat about theCUBE and also I asked him about the whole monopoly thing. He's like, how we hurt consumers? We get things faster and lower price. And so- That's not the standard anymore. That's not the standard anymore. It's Lena Kahn's, well, maybe they'll hurt. If I son her, you know, opinion, it's, I just don't buy it. I mean, it's just- Yeah, I would side on, we need leadership in DC that's more technically savvy. Speaking of tech savvy, Dave, this we're coming up on the 50th anniversary of the first cell phone call in New York. Where were you? Come on. When did you get your first cell phone? Wow. It's gotta be the 90s, those bag phones. Yeah, I would say. Motorola inventor inventives. When was the, I think, yeah, like maybe early 90s. Yeah, that sounds about right. 92 maybe, I think was my first cell phone. Yeah. 50 years of cell phone. Remember the car phones, the bag phones, you're right, that just straps. Deb had one of those. Yeah. It was pretty, you know. Remember, you know, those big satellite phones? I never had one of those, but some people did. That's how we saw Iraq one, right? The desert storm, desert storm. Well, a big, big celebration there. I can't believe it's been 50 years, but a lot of interesting stuff, Dave. I think, you know, the Cube's going to have a lot, a good view this year. We got RSA coming up. We just covered the cloud data security con. We got RSA. We got Reinforce with AWS. You're going to be at Mobile Congress. We got Dell Tech World coming up. We got HPC Discover. We got Snowflake Summit we're going to be doing. So, you know, we're going to be, and we're going to be covering a lot of events. I really want to cover NVIDIA's event, John, with you remotely. Maybe we'll send a reporter in. Maybe we'll do a roving reporter there. That's a hot conference. A lot of, look, a lot of events we just can't physically be at, but we can cover them, you know, like we did with CNCF and the security conference. Well, we got a lot of action. This is our first podcast together. Dave, we're calling it a podcast. The Cube pod, the Cube guys, whatever you want to call it. We have Cube Insights, which is just a streaming of our videos from the Cube. You have your awesome breaking analysis podcast you've been doing now for what, almost two years? Little more than two years. We're almost up to 200 episodes. Yeah, well, congratulations. I really love that format where you break down the news. If you're listening to this podcast here, this one, E1 for us, send me a note, send us a note on Twitter or LinkedIn or whatever, all the channels are open. But you got to check out Dave's breaking analysis because he breaks down every week, a deep dive. And in fact, we did this podcast mainly to kind of break down because you basically put three stories or more in one post. You really kill it. So really do a great job and it's free. So I can't believe that's free because, you know, other companies charge like big money for that. So that kind of, that kind of quality. So great congratulations and love that podcast. Well, I just want to say, you know, you and I have always believed in free content. We want to produce content that educates and inspires people to action. That's always been our mission. And so thank you. Appreciate that, John. The, let's talk about your breaking analysis. What did you do your breaking analysis on this week if you recorded today? Let's go a little teaser here. Yeah, so this, we started our Mobile World Congress or MWC coverage. And, you know, I'm not sure I'm going to do a part two. I wanted to get ahead of it because it's so big and this is not my wheelhouse, you know, I'm more enterprise tech. But basically what we did is we laid out the stack, how the hardened stack of the telcos is disintegrating, disaggregating, just like we saw in the 90s with when competition got layered and horizontal. Now there are some differences of course. You know, we didn't have really AI back then. We didn't have kind of a converged infrastructure blocks. Didn't have as sophisticated analytics, but nonetheless a lot of the trends are very similar. And then what we did is we took a look at how some of the enterprise players, the Dells, the HPEs, the Red Hats, VMware, the big cloud players, Oracle, how they're doing inside of the telco vertical. And it's interesting, many of the players, particularly the cloud players, their presence in telco is actually higher. They have more momentum in telco than they do on average. Some others don't. And so we took a look at that. And then we took a look at some of the key issues that we're going to be focused on in overall Congress, like how fast will O-RAN adoption occur? What about these private wireless networks that you don't really need the telcos? You know, will the telcos adopt the cloud? Some of those key issues that we'll be talking about on theCUBE. I got to get your reaction. I'm just laughing at my Facebook feed, in a good way because I got great, I got great followers on there. A lot of them are distinguished techies from MIT, Northeastern, great schools like that, and industry buddies who have been around the block. And one of the things going around now is the whole 5G versus 6G. And Bob Frankston, who's the inventor of the spreadsheet, says, just skip to 7G and integrate ChadGPT. After all, if you want a smarter network, go right to the end game. And then someone goes, what about Xfinity's 10G? So Xfinity is advertising 10G, but it's not wireless, they're calling it 10G. So it's just marketing stuff, but this comes back down to Dave, the question of it, as telcos advance their spectrum side, on the spectrum side, you get 5G right now out there, 6G hasn't really been defined yet. This could be an opportunity to actually cut the cord. I mean, if the telcos could come out with great wireless transmission and get that 300 meg level of up speed or gig, it could be really challenging to the wired world of the Xfinity. So when you're out there, poke around and let's see if we can find some stories around who can weigh in on how real is 6G? Yeah, and then the other thing, I'm interested in the different use cases. Yeah, I've been talking earlier about hospitals, oil and gas at a drilling site, an entertainment venue, and how they can, with these new technologies, really play with the spectrum and really fine tune, have more flexibility and more agility to actually set up purpose-built wireless networks and the private wireless networks that may not have to rely on the traditional telco connectivity. I think it's going to be really interesting to watch. Well, I got some breaking news here on our first pod, CubePod, the University of North Carolina where you know Caroline's and Morehead Cain scholar over there, she showed a screenshot to our family text. Okay, and it was just, it was from a teacher. Moving forward, big bold thump. On the next quiz, please use your own answers and show your thought process. Bullet, using chat GPT to write your answer is considered plagiarism. Please make sure not to plagiarize sources in your answer, but we won't require citations. We expect you to put information in your own words and show your original thinking. So there it is. Schools are starting to ban chat GPT. Are you for or against it? It reminds me, John, of when I started Wikibon and I was kind of triggered because the teachers at our local, the Bromfield School, local schools said, you cannot use Wikipedia. Am I, wait a minute, as a source. So I think that's a mistake. Here's why. I think that machines have always replaced humans. It's the first time in history it's done so cognitively and I think people have to learn how to interact with these cognitive machines in new creative ways. I think it's an opportunity and I think you should be transparent. I use chat GPT to create this. I use chat GPT sometimes for my breaking analysis. I actually co-authored one of my breaking analysis with chat GPT, but I'll tell you this. If it was just chat GPT, it wouldn't have been as accurate. It wouldn't have been accurate for a lot of things and it wouldn't have been as insightful. I added that creativity. So I think it's a missed opportunity. I totally agree with you. I think it's a mistake. Unequivocally, it's wrong. I think these institutions have this dogma and education sucks in general. And I think what I would do is I'd go radical and say, let's create who's chat GPT is the best. Right. Let's see it. Who's the best at using it? Leveraging chat GPT. Let's see who can feed the AI the best stuff. And you know my rant. Better prompts, better creativity. I mean, you see in chat GPT, when you play with the prompts, you get dramatically different responses. And so a lot of it is the creativity that you put into the machine. There's a famous clip with Steve Jobs back in the early days when he was younger explaining the condor flight time and the rabbit and the human was ranked lower. But given a bicycle, they were number one between two distance and his point was you give the man a tool, they will do things with it. So he really had this whole builder culture. Andy Jassy has that same mindset. You give people that tool, that's what this AI is. So to me, it's a mistake and to not let young minds understand the new tooling. I think it'll make them run faster, make them be smarter and make them adjust. And I think, and plus this is just the beginning. It's only going to get better. ChatGP is only going to get better. So I think I would flip it around and say, who's good at making AI work? Because that's going to be the best physician. That's going to be the best writer. That's going to be the best practitioner. AI will be here forever. It's never going away. And North Carolina is surprising because North Carolina was one of the first and most prominent data science, you know, schools. And it seems to me, John, they should have a course on how to better leverage ChatGP. It should be part of the curriculum. Yeah, boy, oh boy. Well, Dave, this has been a great pod. First one, let's get into next time. Let's, we'll probably review next week prior to know, well, more information on, on overall Congress and another week in the news. And, you know, we'll share a perspective, but, you know, Love it, John. We did an hour. I love spending that time with you. Yeah, I mean, it flew by. Always does when I talk to you. You got such great insights. All right, all right. If you like the pod, respond, text us, leave a comment, go to our Twitter, leave a message, share it and give us feedback. And we're going to bring guests on too. It's not going to be just John and Dave. We'll bring on some, some, some great guests over the next couple of weeks. Try to keep the frequency weekly on Fridays and ship it over the weekend with breaking analysis.