 There are certainly parallels in the two that you're talking about parenting and caregiving and we often use this in the work we do as a metaphor to say, if you've been a parent just you're going to engage people that you've sort of done this, but I think a few different things are parenting, your kid for the most part slowly becomes more independent, right? So there is an exit strategy, right? I mean, now that can be. I mean, again, it's super broad strokes, obviously it's very different for different people, but when people are embarking on having children, to the extent that the people are doing it by choice, I think there's this different set of expectations. Other thing is it's kind of a sort of socially seen acceptable to kind of talk about the dirty diapers and the sleepless nights and oh my gosh, like there's nursing from the feeding pounds, whatever. And of course, like we've shifted the culture didn't used to be. And so I think there's this normalization of the stress of parenting that our society does in a way that caregiving is not normalized, right? Caregiving is seen like you say, if you're seen as being selfish, if you complain like this is your husband, this is your son, whatever your daughter, you should want to do this. You should care. And I don't know if people saw this, the interview with Meghan Markle, that people see this video. This was really, it's a weird preference. I'm not a pop culture person, but it was so poignant. So they're all just like, you know, British tabloids are like all the constantly on their case, whatever. And it was after she had her baby and the reporter just kind of, the video is rolling whatever and asked her like, how are you doing? And you could just see her face. And she just flushed. I mean, this is a woman who's an actress. She knows how to keep her things together. Right? I mean, that's her job, right? And she just completely flushed, she teared up and she was like, and she said basically like not so great and nobody ever asks me that, right? And it was like, here's a woman who from any perspective would you see as just having everything like no need, there's no needs, no wants, nothing that can go unanswered. She felt so isolated because nobody was asking her how she is doing, right? In all these interviews, it was all about like whatever else it was about. And I think so that that parenting isolation is also a thing that happens. So there are parallels, even in the emotional experience, the dropping out of the workforce for women, especially because we don't have good policies to support all those things are true. But I think there's a general, there's a difference. The other thing is when you watch a loved one decline, it's a specific kind of pain that you feel that all the caregiver burden and stress literature often talks about the tasks you do, right? Like it's more, I mean, there's a lot of hours you put in and there's a lot of tasks you do and it's straining and all, which is all absolutely true. But they're just suddenly fundamental, but watching somebody you love and care about just suffer, right? In front of you and you feeling helpless and knowing that that's not going to change, it's only going to get worse, right? Because that person is now in a decline. So I think that also is something that it's you need more coping to do the things that you're doing, but also just to step back and go like, this sucks. Like this hurts me. Like this is somebody I love and I can't help them, right? And it's, and that's just a very profound suffering that doesn't get talked about. It didn't happen easily that women in particular and men as well began to be recognized for the fact that if they were doing caregiving for children, it was going to cost a lot, both economically, as you've pointed out and in all the other ways you've pointed out. And that the costs were increasingly, were increasingly heavy as the prospective caregivers moved into the world of social contribution. So to take someone who was not a caregiver, who was in fact serving in some ways the way people on this panel are, perhaps a whole society and narrow them down to taking care of children is a loss to the whole political economy and the social good. And through an enormous number of fights by feminists, men and women, to say this was not an a priori decision, of course you should go home and take care of your kids, that's important, we all grant that's important. Through those fights, we succeeded in changing the cultural attitude toward men and women who are parents and leave their kids in order to go to work. Now what we did not change, because we don't have the political will, is providing free, affordable, high quality child care across the board just like kindergarten. It should start at age one or six months. The other thing we haven't accomplished is even, as you were saying, even changing the cultural idea that you are allowed to subcontract, outsource, and walk out of elder care, it's okay. It isn't okay yet. Can I talk about that? I think the question in our minds is, do we have the guts to make a second revolution that's going to change the position of elder carers just the way it changed the cultural position of child carers? Here, here. Wow. Here, here. Wow. Here, here. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.