 I'd like to welcome everyone back to the SE Village, continue on with our speeches. We have members of the ILF Foundation here, Chris Hadnagy, a good friend but also a board member of the ILF, professional social engineer. We also have AJ Cook, you may know her as JJ from Criminal Minds and we also have Neil Fallon who is the lead singer of Clutch. So we look forward to seeing all those and just to let everyone know all the board members of ILF are here except for Casey. So they're all in the audience. Looking forward to meeting them afterwards as well. So let's give our attention to Chris, AJ and Neil. Welcome back to the Village guys and gals. Nice to have you all here. So how many were here last year? Not here obviously but in the SE Village last year when we announced the ILF? Okay quite a few. So for those of you that weren't because there was more hands down than were up, let's just recap what happened last year. So DEF CON 25, I announced that we're starting a foundation that was going to use white hat hackers. So people from this community, those who have special skills in OSINT, I think this is important to differentiate because people came up and asked. So open source intelligence gathering, not actually technical network hacking. That was the goal because we're not going on to servers and hacking them to get their databases. We're finding people online that are profiting from child pornography or producing it or trafficking children or exploiting children. And we're uncovering who they are online. We're uncovering who they are in real life. And then we're handing all that information over to law enforcement. As much as I would like the baseball bat justice, it just doesn't work, right? So we need to get them over to law enforcement. After I announced what happened at DEF CON, you can see some of the stats on the slide. Over 300 people volunteered. We're not up to 352. It's just ridiculous. We have over 10, actually I need to update that just in the last couple of weeks. We have over 12 reported cases and 10 files have been produced. Now what does that mean? The file is actually identified perpetrator, someone who is actually exploiting children. So we have 10 of those people identified over to law enforcement and we have a number of those turned into active cases with federal law enforcement. So that makes me super happy after just one year to stand here and tell you all the things that we've accomplished in one year. Some really other proud moments, and this happened that you guys knew this last year for those of you that were here, but Neil was like my sounding board, which is a odd thing to say out loud in my head or even out loud at all. Going to Neil and saying, hey, I got this crazy idea. You want to be with me and start a foundation that comes down child predators? And he's like, hey, you know, I need some time to think about this. And then he goes and he talks to his wife and they came back and said, you know, that they want to be a part of it. That was a huge deal for me. Not being in the industry was kind of nice to have a sounding board. Someone to say this is a good or a terrible idea or maybe we should do something about this. Neil has a bunch of friends that ended up down the line getting us hooked up with AJ who then jumped right on board and we'll let her talk about how she made that decision along with Neil too. Then something else huge happened. Anyone know Humble Bundle? Humble, yeah, right? So amazing organization. If you don't know who they are, basically what they do is they put together bundles of PDF books. So for us, and also I learned this from my son, games. I didn't know they did games. I just knew they did books and how to play games, right? So I didn't know they also did gaming, which I guess is the much bigger side of Humble Bundle than the book side, which I'm learning also I'm slow, I'm sorry. So they came to us as the innocent lives because of my fourth book was coming out and my publisher said, hey, do you think that you would want to be part of the Humble Bundle? Yes, that would be awesome. I'm thinking maybe we'll get a few thousand dollars and that would be really cool, catapult us into not having to front load it all ourselves and pay for everything ourselves. And we made $185,000 in donations in two months. That's crazy. So I get asked this question often, you know, why? Why do we have to do this? Why is this even needed? So to help explain this, I want you to play a game with me, okay? How old is she? Under 10, 7? Someone said 11. I heard 12. Okay, well this is a famous actress, Caroline Linney from 1952. She's 12 years old, right? And when I saw that picture, I would have guessed the same as you. How old is she? 16, 17, 14 I heard, I heard 11 over here. She's also 12. Veronica Cartwright from 1962. How old is she? Someone is seeing a pattern. You, my dear, are very smart. You always catch things very quick. She is 12. This is the actress Jodie Foster from 1974. Now I'm not going to trick you, try to trick you again, but this is a 1987 Drew Barrymore, also 12 years old. This is the Olsen twins in the 90s, 12 years old. And this is a modern day, 12 year old. What has changed over the last 50 years? This is a famous because of social media. This is not victim blaming, but we need to understand. What's happening in society? See, the over sexualization of children makes this kind of material easy for people to get. Both boys and girls are over sexualized in media, on TV, in news, in movies, in music, to the point that it's hard to tell their ages, isn't it? Now it wasn't hard when we were back in the 50s and 60s, you guys were all guessing the appropriate ages by looking at the pictures. But now we get into this age and can you really say you honestly can see that she's 12 years old? I can't, right? So that's part of the problem. Here's the other part of the problem. There are communities, I'm going to show you some things that I really want to just upfront say. There may be some trigger warnings for people in here. I'm not going to show you anything explicit. I promise you that. But I need you to understand why this fight has to occur. This is a community online that's called the Pedo Support Community. Fortunately, you cannot read all of those texts that are up there very clearly, I hope. But this community has 165,946 posts in it. Posts that include how to marry a pedophile or wife, how to groom your first child, how to kidnap and abduct children. These are forums where these people talk about these very topics to educate each other. How to avoid law enforcement? How to encrypt your hard drives? And believe it or not, their information is really good. I mean, like from a security perspective, it's solid information on how to do these things. Here's another one. Just from looking at the headings, they deal with toddlers, teens, webcams, hardcore, soft core, 20,442 posts with 371,000 members on this forum. So this is a huge problem and one that's not going to go away overnight. Anyone know, Nick Mick? Can you hear the organization, Nick Mick? I'm going to raise your hand. So it stands for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, an excellent organization here in the U.S. That actually works internationally. They do some pretty phenomenal work. Sadly, it's really difficult work for them, but they have to catalog all child pornography and child exploitation, child abuse material, and then they assign it a hash. And that hash gets divvied out to law enforcement so they can go and try to see where those images come from and then they try to make a rest with that information. The poor people at Nick Mick have to deal with 480,000 plus child abuse images per week, per week. Try to understand that. These are new images, not reproduced images. This is 480,000 plus new images of child abuse material per week. That's 25 million images of children being abused per year. It's just unbelievable to think that that exists. 78% of those images are children 12 and under, 78%. I can't do the math that quick in my head, nor do I want to because it's just disgusting. 63% are children 8 or under. And 80% are girls, 19% are boys. So we can see just the depravity in these statistics. More than 30% of searchers on P2P networks are involving child pornography. So P2P networks, they did a research on this and more than 30% of all searches on those networks are dealing with child abuse material. That's how they're spreading it so much and end with the dark web. The average child abuser, here's some stats. 97% male, 97% USA citizens, that is disturbing. Do you know that over 60% of the world's child pornography is produced here in this country? Yeah, we always assume that it's done in some other country, maybe a third world country, maybe something to do with money, but it's produced by US citizens in this country. And 68% of it, 97% of US, 82% white, 79% have no prior convictions. I was talking to someone this weekend about this very statistic. As you know, when you have violent criminals, you can often tell, right? Someone that they have a lot of violence inside of them, the way they approach you, it's very aggressive. You kind of see it in their eyes, they're angry all the time. If you have someone who abuses women or treats women bad, usually you can see the way that they deal with women. You can see that. But what is the indicator for a pedophile? Does anyone know? There are none. That's the thing. See, a person who abuses children looks like you and me. Because there's no big indicator of flashing light that says that someone is into children. And now there's a movement where they're trying to make pedophilia part of the LGBT community. Yeah, saying that it is a preference to be sexually attracted to children. Yep, you'll be seeing a lot of that coming up soon. So it's a fight, right? It's an issue that has to be dealt with. And sadly, law enforcement, and this is not a slight on them, right? This is not a slight. I'm not saying this as an insult to them. Law enforcement does not have the technical skills in-house to always deal with this or the enough manpower. So that's why we started this. So our mission is to unmask people who anonymously pray on children and then help law enforcement deal with them appropriately. So I have a couple of things I can tell you before I introduce the other board members. Yeah, this, I already mentioned this, but this happened. This was just a mind blowing to me. And Humble Bundle, they're a charitable organization, but they have to make money for the books they sell. And when we did it, when we had that, we had Neil and AJ and both of their friends with Aisha Tyler and she tweeted the Humble Bundle. And it kind of blew up. So everybody was going to buy the books, which was great for them, for Humble Bundle, and it was great for us. So now they're like, hey, would you care if we include you a couple times a year in this? And I'm like, no, that's a silly question. So of course, so this looks like a really good model for us in being able to deal with any kind of expenses. So let me give you an example of things that kind of occur. I have so many that I want to share with you, but I just want to kind of maybe give you one or two. So we have this father who found out that his daughter was being groomed, 11-year-old daughter being groomed by someone on Instagram. All right, so when I hear that, I always think Snapchat. Because Snapchat's the devil, right? But it's Instagram now. So DM'ing through Instagram as a 14-year-old girl, that's what this guy was doing. And he got her to take non-pornographic, but illicit pictures of her as an 11-year-old and then started to plant seeds about meeting up so they can kind of go away on a little trip together. This 14-year-old was supposedly very wealthy, had a lot of money, and was going to take her away for a trip. And the dad went, found out, because this is amazing, this is just wonderful that this part of the story, the daughter started feeling weird about the conversations and told her dad. And her dad went and looked at the account and went, oh, reached out to the police, police said we can't do anything, nothing has occurred. So the father, angry, went online, started looking at things and found the ILF, emailed the ILF and said I need help. We took over the account and we started interacting with that person and getting him to agree to meet, getting him to offer up more details about himself, making a time and location. And then we called federal law enforcement and said, hey, we have this guy who wants to go meet an 11-year-old. And then they went to the house, took over the phone, and took over the account. And that is now an active case. Two days later, because that father was talking about it, another mother in the community said, wait, the same thing's happening to my daughter from the same user. So we were able to do the same thing and help build the case with federal law enforcement. So that's an active case that is now occurring as we speak on these people who are trafficking children. The way it works is they go, they pick them up, and then they traffic them overseas. So this is now something that's going to be, not all of trafficking, but this particular person is going to be stopped because of the work that our group did. Really, really wonderful feeling for that to occur. Thank you. So some of the other details that come up that people ask about is like, how can you get involved? And I've had so many people come up and hand me a card and say, can I help? I need to tell you how you can help right now. And then we're going to get Neil and AJ up here to talk about their journey into the ILF. So if you give me a card, I'm going to guarantee you I'm probably going to forget to email you about this, and I'm sorry. And it's not because I don't care. We have 352 volunteers. The way that you volunteers need to be vetted, and this is a background check, it's a credit check, and it's a federal check. You can kind of, I don't need to slay it out. You know the material that we're getting into, right? So this is not a light matter, and it's not for everybody. And that's acceptable. No helping other people should not harm your family. So if you can't help in that way, then there's other ways you can help. You can promote the ILF. You can tell people that if they know of things online that they feel are inappropriate use of children or exploitation of children to report it to us, to also report it to NICMIC, you can donate and help continue the cause so we can grow the organization. Right now what we've built is we've built some proprietary technology that has helped save our researchers from having to deal with a serious psychological harm. So we have a VDI, it's a virtual desktop infrastructure system that blurs all images that come up on the screen. So our researchers don't have to see the garbage that comes up on the screen. Now sadly that's not enough because I have to read the material, and that's why the first thing we did with all the money that was donated was we hired a psychologist so we have a mental health program in our organization and it's mandated to meet with the mental health professional after doing research and work because mental health is probably the most important thing you can do for people that are doing this and that came directly from NICMIC and a conversation with them. So if you want to help, you can go to innocentlivesfoundation.org and on that website there's multiple different ways that you can volunteer. All I ask is for your patience. Right now as you can imagine, last year when I announced this I kind of thought one of the two things are going to happen, people will look at me like I'm nuts and then they're going to like kick me out of the community or it's going to be like everyone's like wow that's great but we don't want to we don't want to think about this because that's kind of what happens in your head right you're going to want to think about this even occurring. It's kind of hard to imagine that there's 300,000 people on a forum that specializes in the molestation of toddlers like that's hard to picture right we don't want to deal with that but the reverse of all of that occurred. What occurred is the community embraced it and we have 350 people sitting in a database saying use me and I have 14 people right now that we started the organization with and we're trying to work out our SOPs right because that's important right we kind of jumped into it head first and we kicked butt we did so much great work and then we stopped and we went okay we want to grow but how do we do it without some good operating procedures so that's our next step we're working on that as a team we're working on standardizing the way that we're going to do our OSINT and these things I'm sorry but these things will not be published though those things will not be public I will not speak about the SOPs publicly or our procedures publicly even if you ask that will be proprietary to any organization you want to know something interesting you remember the subway guy Jared already got arrested for for raping small children you remember that well you know how they found him it was a dog that was trained to sniff the silicon and usb keys and when they went into his home they found behind the walls he had dozens of usb keys that were laden with child pornography now that news came out and you know what came on that that pedophilia form on how to use hard drives encrypted hard drives so they weren't using usb keys anymore to get past the silicon sniffing dogs so when you publicize your SOPs or you publicize the method that you catch these people they're watching the same way we are and then they adapt they learn and then they make it harder and the last thing we want to do is become an educational force for people who are doing the worst evils on the planet so you know if you ask questions about that and I say no I can't share it don't take it personally okay it's not about it's not about trust it is just about protecting the innocent and that's really what our organization is all about and I'd like to invite Neil Fallon up to the stage if you can everyone give him a huge round of applause and if you would also join me in welcoming AJ Cook onto the stage so you know I want to do Q&A with you guys here you don't take this I want to do Q&A with the audience and them but I think what's important maybe it's the first let them tell the journey what made you become part of the dialogue well first I'll say it's hard to talk about it's one of the things I've learned since that first phone call was or it's still in the process of learning how to talk about this because it's incredibly emotional and it's awkward to talk about it in clinical terms but you kind of have to divorce yourself from that horror in order to do the work but I remember very distinctly when Chris called me I was sitting with my chief it was one of those phone calls you get and you knew this was a big decision and I digested it for a couple days and I spoke to my wife and I told her about this and she said to me now that you know how can you not help and sometimes I think we try to over justify explain motivations for doing good like what's your story about doing good but I honestly think doing good for the sake of doing good is the only justification you need you don't need to explain and I didn't really know anything about this topic except for the evening news like most of us and once Chris spoke to me and I saw those stories on the evening news I knew that that may have been the end of that story but that was the bookend to someone's horror that went on for years and it's happening right now for millions of children so I have so I found myself in a position and opportunity to do something and if it just means helping one kid then that's worth it that's that's the only justification I need and I wish I had a more eloquent explanation to give you but when I you know look at my kid and I think about other parents who may be going through this or can't see their kid it just breaks my heart it really really breaks my heart and I think we may feel powerless to stop it but all I did was talk to people Chris talked to me and I said to myself well I what do I do I get on a keyboard and do this stuff that I really didn't want to frankly and I thought well I know some people in the music industry in the entertainment industry and it was a hard subject to broach but I sent an email to Aisha Tyler when we went back and forth and Aisha is friends with AJ and here she is and that's no different than any of you talking to a friend about this you know the the amount of Twitter followers or Instagram profile that's all well and good but look how many people are in the room right now and how many hundreds of friends each and every one of you have and then they have it's an exponential force so that's why I joined it and you know I'm grateful for the opportunity to do some good somehow you know my story is actually pretty similar as far as you know I I heard about it through Aisha and you and I got to have a conversation and there was a moment where I just thought you know because it's such a difficult subject and it's such a heartbreaking situation it's not dinner conversation it's not it's a hard subject to broach as Neil was talking about so I knew I just knew I couldn't walk away trust me I wanted to I really wanted to but as a mom you know I could not could not walk away and it's something that you know I'm still trying to figure out how to be useful and I am not a hacker this is my first time at DefCon you people are all amazing to me this is foreign for me I wish I had all of your beautiful brains holy smokes because I don't think that way but that's good because we have this this man and a whole bunch of other people doing that I'm just trying to be useful in in a way of getting the message out there I had no idea this existed it changed my life and my my my thoughts and feelings toward this subject because it's you tend to push it away it starts to creep in and someone maybe brings up something or you see like a little clip on on the news and we push it away really quick because it's it's dark it's dark and it's it's horrifying to think that these things still happen and they seem to be happening more and more and they will continue with you know like you saw that 12 year old okay she's 12 so I just I couldn't walk away and I am so honored to to be working with this gentleman over here and he's the work he's been able to put into this so far and just a year blows my mind and I really look forward with hopefully the help of some of you even with just telling your friends about it and you know the message will grow and grow and hopefully we'll start to see some change and again if it's just one child you are the one that told me this because I got really caught up in the the whole this is bigger than me like how how do we make a difference there's just all of these statistics were so alarming to me and I just felt like how do where do we even begin and Neil so eloquently put it in the way of just one person you save one child and we've done it we've done it so you know it's I know it's a hard ask it's a hard asking it's not for everybody but you could really help us out by just kind of you know sharing that message and just letting people know that this even exists so thanks for listening Neil, right Junior the question was how are we vetting our volunteers since Penifigli is such a big deal and and I meant strongly oh there you are Tim I'm looking for you there's a problem with this game and there's no strong indicators all right so how do we vet well this is not a short fire way to to do it but I can tell you our process and it comes directly from from nicknick I've learned a lot from them because this is one of my biggest worries you start hiring people and on to to work and you get a bad actor to ruin your whole organization so we do we do a full background check on each person and you have to submit to it there's no anonymity and as there is to the world if you do not want the world to know you volunteer with ILF then we will not mention your name right you will not be on the website we will not talk about you but there is no anonymity when it comes to law enforcement if a law enforcement agent wants to know who you are and they do want to know who you are if you're working with us then everything we have on you will go to them and it does secondly any work that you do that is not on our VDI we will turn you in if you submit something you went to a CP forum or something and you did that not on our VDI then I have no problem turning you in right no no no it's illegal so you can't do it the VDI is logged and monitored and you have absolutely no rights access to change anything you can just do your job and that is it so people come in full aware knowing that everything you do is being monitored by big brother and that we will have no issues because that's our mission statement is turning people in that that wants to hurt children I don't care if that's you or if that's me or if that's anyone they're going to get turned in because we don't we're not going to deal with that right that's part of the issue so is that a hundred percent it's going to be bad actors that happens Nick Mick told me it happens to them all the time people will get hired so the third step in that process is our is our psychologist is our mental health program is that you're mandated to meet with her for a minimum of 30 minutes after every time you do a case and that again it's not a hundred percent but her job is that if she feels anyone starts becoming a threat to themselves or to children then she will turn you in and there's no there's just no option there is no plan B for that so it's I know it's not a it's not a hundred percent I wish there was but that's as close as we can get to trying to keep it secure while we while we try to make a change in this yeah I saw a hand over here so yeah you go ahead sir I saw your hand first so I want to make sure I understand your question you're asking if if the way that we're doing OSINT will make the bad guys better okay yeah that's so that's a great that's a great question so he's asking that if we like so if we're really good with our OSINT and we skim off the top scum right that aren't good and then what's left are these really good guys you know how to hide their stuff so that is a risk okay but I'm okay with skimming off the scum right now because let's say the scum is 90 percent of them I'm okay with that for this moment let's get rid of them and then we can figure out how we fight that deeper fight right but for right now if we can we can skim out the majority of them I'll take it every little win you know every little win we got two or two arrests under our belt as an organization I want 2,000 but I'll take two because that's two people who aren't molesting children anymore because they were sitting in prison I'll take it and that's not a great answer but I'll do it you know yeah the question was are any of the cases that I've seen repeat offenders I don't know to be honest because we don't we don't have access to the law enforcement records public record for those I will say that I just the answer the honest answer is I don't know if they are I haven't I don't have that knowledge in my head yes oh that's a great question so he asked how our how our mental health program works co-located so believe it or not mental health programs can be done through HIPAA compliant systems online if if both parties agree so our mental health program is done through video cannot be done on a phone it's done through video and through a HIPAA compliant platform and that's the way we do it now we can get past that yes sir how do we deal with contraband correct yeah so we don't download anything we don't capture any images cash is shut off we don't collect it don't need to see it say on these forums the ones that I showed you these are just a couple these guys and gals are on there talking about what they did to these kids the images don't need to be seen to understand how horrible the things are that they've done it doesn't nope and then what we do is we send those links directly to our federal law enforcement contacts and then they have the right to go download those images and that's good enough for me it's a good question thank you for that yes ma'am for now yes she she has she has many contacts that have agreed to join the force when needed but right now we only have active how many nine eight nine researchers I can't remember the number eight or nine researchers and then all the other support other parts of the organization so the people who are doing like some of the blog writing and website development and things like that they don't need to see the shrink right it's just people doing the research when we grow that we'll need she will definitely need help because she has an active practice that she that she takes care of and she blocks out time for us and then when that time gets filled she will tell me and then we'll add another person to the to the roster yeah yes sir so the question was do we have any worries about international retaliation yes of course right but here's the deal there is no federal law enforcement agent that has an ILF boot when they kick the door in they're not saying we're here because of ILF we're not part of the arresting team I'm not in court I'm not testifying so the knowledge that any organization would have that we're involved is minimal almost impossible we do that on purpose and that is up to us by the way guys and gals because what we need to do is be able to produce a file that can walk a law enforcement agent from A to Z without needing us so if we do our job right then we can be invisible and that's what we want yeah yes ma'am yes yeah sadly that contact is going to be me so I need to give you a card after okay and I mean sadly just because I'm terrible but I will answer these I will give you an ILF card those thank you very much I think that's fair and I'm sorry to be that way that's really terrible the way to be but I appreciate that and then we just issued we have a three part blog on how to notice the signs of exploited children with a really nice PDF chart that you can download that talks about the signs for exploited children and children that are being groomed and that children that are at risk for for prostitution so I can share that with you yes all the way down there well these two people are definitely helping so I love you either of you want to uh I I was sorry it was about I'm a rock and roll musician my hearing is terrible I forgot I didn't hear what you said to indecible music for his whole life it was about do we have any concepts or ideas for future fundraising we're definitely brainstorming and working on that I would say keep your eyes on the ILF website and uh I've been brainstorming a couple things as you have as well yeah it's um not only the was the material and you know hacking for lack of a better word new to us so it's fundraising frankly for all three of us yeah yeah yeah that's the um it's much more complicated than I ever would have thought so if you have any suggestions please let us know yes please yeah we can use oh see look at my team you see see these two two people coming there of course there there so we are a legit 501c3 right so what's amazing to me I didn't share this with you before but I did this last year we got our approval back from the IRS and under two months my CPA said that never happens like usually it takes like a year I don't know how that happened but in two months we got our our 501c3 back so we do take donations on the website which have been very very uh a very big part of our our fundraising and we've been using these stickers and I know it seems like a weird thing to do but just kind of people kept coming back all weekend and donating to the ILF and then getting a sticker for that oh yes and thank you Jameson reminded me because he works for a corporation that does the very thing he just said like Jameson's organization has a matching program and since we're a legit 501c3 you can find us in the giving databases so if your organization has a matching program you can add it to your charitable donations and if you don't need to us your company will match that so thank you both ladies in the back and Jameson for for that and and donations are definitely accepted oh in one other I don't know if anyone likes criminal minds here but I am working on a on a I am working on putting together visit to the set so that's going to be a big one coming out so let's let's keep our eyes peeled for that but like he said I never in a million years would I have thought like fundraising would be so complicated but we're we're slowly we're getting it together so I'll donate if I can go maybe we'll be able to do a couple of them yes sir so there are yes but the main thing that we have to do is that we have to be strict about our our SOPs right if we hand something in that even looks like we stepped over the line I'll give you an interesting example that came to me from our law enforcement friends do you know that over 80% of the people that Chris Hansen supposedly helped to get arrested walked that we they all walked they don't tell you that part so that to catch a predator show was just bunk because they walked because what happened after that show is their their their dirtbag lawyers came in the court and said well you'll have no proof that I was a pedophile this girl came on to me online I just I didn't know that this was going to be a setup I just went to go give her a beer and drugs you know like and somehow the judge goes well you're right there was no proof that a crime was going to be committed so let him go so we cannot do anything that will assist the bad guys and being able to continue to do their disgusting things so we my team and I are very strict about a file won't even get handed in if it's not complete right it won't even get handed in so we can't step over that line because that puts the whole organization at risk so is there a place yes but we probably have to get a little further along before we get approvals to do certain things okay I know so many hands man I saw you before go ahead yes yep you yep I can I can barely hear you there we go that'll make it easier oh you're and you're awesome so I have two oh I have two questions and feel free to answer whichever one or both the first one is when you do whatever your research is do you focus on finding one or have you been trying to find the ring the second question is have you considered participating in gift big events explain this I don't know what that second one was I mean so um doesn't even know gift big because it is every year in one month a one week of I forgot which month it is and is like a big nationwide or maybe it was just yeah but there's a whole week thing and then like usually there are some somebody else that is also like sponsoring it oh like trying to sponsor match so that if people's company aren't matching there is a match if people's company are matching them then you a triple match you know that so the gift big thing is that so I guess you don't participate in that because thanks for the idea though so like we said we stink at fundraising we're really bad at this part you know so we haven't heard of that there's probably a million things that you guys all have ideas which we will gladly take when we get booted off stage we'll go outside and we'll take all your ideas but for the first um question um we so it starts off because these forms generally are not rings of people it is a person who has and there's no way to say this without just kind of really being disturbing there is pictures and videos of them molesting their own children generally or their stepchildren or their nieces and nephews and they trade these like baseball cards for free so it's not a ring it's these it's these people who are online these individuals that are doing these things so a lot of our research has started off with individuals and um and the people who own the websites that facilitate them so that that's that's where we start yes sir because the question was can we become active on the forms here's the issue with that then we become more and more like the Chris Chris Hanson thing as soon as we interact with one of these guys then if something they do something bad they can say I wouldn't have done it if this guy didn't talk to me about 13 year old girls I would have never done this thing and now he gets off and he's free and now he can go tell all his disgusting buddies about the the way to make themselves more secure so we don't we don't talk to them we don't interact with them we don't offer them anything we don't communicate with them we are lurkers and that's it right sir or man sorry vendors yeah I don't think any of us have done that Neil Neil so far is probably the only one who's done any level of actually talking to big names in his industry about spreading the message and and now we're hearing like AJ stepping that game up I kind of stink I talked to my friends and I say hey you work for a big company you have any ideas and he goes yeah sure I got a great idea we really need help in that we're really stinking that to talk with me after and get a business card and let's see how we make that work because I would I would love to I would love to know more we are open to all these ideas we just don't know how to do it like I said this was like a crazy thing that came about if there's a million hands we'll take them out let me just tell you this quick came about because we did a little work with an organization uncovered a guy who was flying to the Philippines and he was molesting children and videotaping it on his work related devices because he didn't want his wife to find out because they had two kids who he was molesting and he was selling these things to other perverts online and in a routine security awareness pen test we found this guy and he's in prison right now and that feels great but that was how that's how all of this started was because it was whoa I'm just a greasy little hacker that sits in the basement till one in the morning with a light bulb in my hoodie I didn't know that you can actually do good things in your life and I don't know anything about fundraising or vendor stuff I just don't know how to hack things that's it and if I could just jump in you know real quick to say that it's okay for us as an organization to ask for help because there's only so many of us and there's going to be angles that we would never conceive of so all the questions whether it be mental health was over there and fundraising was over there in your question now that's what we need to hear donations are vital but so are ideas and the more heads we put together the stronger it becomes and that's one of the reasons we're on stage right now and use the help we can use the help oh do I really want to ask it follow my daughter oh everyone's pointing at Peter yeah you know something you know Neil humbly probably won't admit he already got us a meeting with a representative and Tim is working on a meeting with a senator to discuss those very things the hard part is that's probably the long game changing laws and policies is not easy it's also not something that's going to happen overnight and it's also not something that's going to fix the problem so there's a law in most states that you can't carry lock picks how many people here carry lock picks right what if the law stop it doesn't stop criminals doesn't stop people do it for a living it stops the law abiding citizens so you make a law child pornography is illegal in almost every country around the globe it's not stopping it oh my the question was if we can spread then like once we find one can we then go to other forms and save other children generally not because the dark web as all of us as many of you probably know is not cashable or searchable like the open web so you find their user names and it's not really you can't just go on to another dark web forum and find them so it's not it's not easy to do sadly and sadly finding the children is much more difficult than finding the people who are abusing them I think we have time for maybe one more question and then here's what we'll do after we're done the three of us and any of the I live volunteers that don't mind being identified if you are want to be come outside and if you have questions we will talk out there is that fair because there's a lot of hands I know we can't get to them because I don't want to take away from the next speakers who have some great content so if you want to continue this conversation the three of us will go out to the hallway and you can come out there and talk with us is that good and thank you all for your support coming thank you AJ thank you guys thank you