 I wanna visualize your lineage quickly. So let's go to, your teacher is Francis Lucille, correct? And did you meet him around 1995-ish? Or when? A little bit later, 97. 97, okay. And then for 13 years you studied with him. So up until about 2010 or so. Yes, let me just go back a little bit further. Yes. To my late teens, where I first became interested in these matters. And so I started attending a school or a society in London, called the study society. And it was essentially a school of classical Advaita Vedantam. So for 20 years or so, I was in this classical Advaita teaching, practicing mantra meditation and exploring the classical non-dual teachings. And it was after 20 years of that, that I then met Francis. Yes. He introduced me to the direct approach. And he also introduced me to the tantric approach, which he had learned through his teacher Jean Klein. Yes. I then spent 13 years or so with Francis before I started speaking about these matters myself. Yes. Yes. Very few people have the opportunity to be introduced to non-duality at the age of 16, which is what you had. That's true. I was fortunate. My mother and stepfather at the time were both very interested in these matters. They originally went to Collet House, the study society in London. And so they introduced me to Collet House, the Advaita teaching. They also practiced the Mevlavi turning. So I was very fortunate at an early age during my mid to late teens to come across this understanding to meet a lot of people and spend really most of my time with a lot of people, most of them older than me at that time who were interested in these matters. So this really from mid teens up until my mid thirties, the classical Advaita or non-dual approach was really the backdrop to my life and was really the main focus of my life during those years. And Francis's lineage goes to Jean Klein who he met in 1975. And then Jean Klein was with Pandit Ji Rao in 1950. And Pandit Ji was a professor of Sanskrit in Bangalore and he came from a lineage of Advaita teachers. Yes, that's true. Jean Klein was also a yoga teacher. So what was unusual about Jean Klein and I think immensely valuable is that his approach incorporated the body and didn't reject the body and indeed the world as some of the classical Advaita teachings coming out of India did. So this is what I referred to earlier as the Tantric approach which is an approach of inclusion, including the totality of experience rather than the classical Advaita approach where the body and the world are considered, at least in some expressions of it, are considered dangerous realms where we might lose ourselves. So that was something very valuable, immensely valuable that Francis introduced me to, this inclusive path. Yes. As opposed to the path of exclusion or the path of discrimination which don't get me wrong, I have the highest regard for and spent 20 years on that path myself and it was immensely valuable but there was something incomplete about it for me because of this lack of inclusion of the body and the world. And of course, during these early years I was practicing as you said earlier as a potter. I was spending my days making pots in my studio and my nights reading Ramana Maharshi. As a potter, I loved things. I spent my life making things. I loved things. I love beauty and so there was no question of me renouncing. Yes. Okay, so it wasn't until I met Francis that my love of beauty that I was exploring in my studio by day and my love of truth that I was exploring at home by night really came together and I realized that really the love of beauty and the love of truth are indeed the same. Yes. Yes, yes. And this is key and we're going to touch on this throughout our conversation is this full embrace of the beauty of what is what we have here and the full unleashing of inner potential artistry, gifts into our reality. I want to relate what you just said also to Shri Arubindo quickly and the mother Mira Alfasa and the integral yoga in the sense that they also highly, highly emphasize the importance of anchoring, the divine anchoring, the full embodiment in every day. And that way it basically butterfly effects out into everything that we do with our family, our friends, our work, our relationships, everything. And that's the process of the beginnings of a more beautiful and truthful and awakened to the true nature of reality world. Yes, yes.