 After two years a conversation with the president of the United States last evening in his office Mr. Kennedy looked back at the first two years of his presidency and looked ahead Talking with him for some 90 minutes with three White House correspondents Bill Lawrence of ABC news George Herman of CBS news and Sander van Oker of NBC news Now on the CBS television network an hour of that conversation edited and recorded on videotape As you look back upon your first two years in office, sir Has your experience in the office matched your expectations? You had studied a good deal the power of the presidency the methods of its operation How has this worked out as you saw it in advance when in the first place? I think the problems are more difficult than I had imagined they were Secondly, there's a limitation upon the ability of the United States to solve these problems we Involved now in the Congo in a very Difficult situation. We've been unable to secure an implementation of the policy which we've supported We are involved in a good many other areas We're trying to see if a solution can be found of the struggle between Pakistan and India with whom we want to maintain friendly relations yet They're unable to come to an agreement there is a limitation in other words upon the power of the United States to bring about solutions I think our people get awfully impatient and Maybe fatigued and tired and same we've been carrying this burden for 17 years. Can we lay it down? Can't lay it down. I don't see how we're going to lay it down in this century so that I Would say that the problems are more Difficult than I imagined it to be the responsibilities placed in the United States are greater than I imagined them to be and there are Greater limitations upon our ability to bring about a favorable result than I had imagined them to be And I think that's probably true of anyone who becomes president because there is such a difference between those who? advise or speak or Legislate and Between the man who must make select from the various alternatives proposed and say that this shall be the policy of the United States What's much easier to make the speeches than it is to finally make the judgments? Because unfortunately your advisors are frequently divided if you take the wrong course and on occasion. I have President bears the burden responsibility quite rightly The advisors may move on to new advice Well, mr. President that brings up a point that's always interested me How does a president go about making a decision like Cuba for example? The Most recent one was hammered out rarely our policy and decision over a period of five or six days during that period the 15 People more or less who were directly consulted Frequently changed their view Because whatever action we took had so many disadvantages to it and each action that we took raised the prospect that the It might escalate the Soviet Union into a nuclear war Finally however, I think a general consensus developed and certainly seemed after all Alternatives were examined at the course of action that we finally adopted was the right one now When I talked to members of the Congress several of them suggested a different alternative when we confronted them on that Monday with the evidence My feeling is that if they had gone through the five-day period We had gone through it looking at the various alternatives the advantages and disadvantages of action They probably would have come out the same way that we did I think we took the right one if we had had to act on the Wednesday in the first 24 hours I don't think probably we would have chosen as prudently as we finally did a quarantine against the use of offensive weapons In addition that had much more power than we first thought it did Because I think the Soviet Union was very reluctant to have a stop ships Which carried with them a good deal of their highly secret and sensitive material Another one of the reasons I think that the Soviet Union withdrew the IO 28 was because we were carrying on very intensive low-level photography Now no one would have guessed probably that that would have been such a harassment Mr. Castro could not permit us to indefinitely continue wide-spread flights over his island at 200 feet every day And he yet he knew if he shot down one of our planes that then it would to bring back a much more serious reprisal on him So it's very difficult to always make judgments here about what the effect will be of our decisions on other countries in this case It seemed to me that we did pick the right one in cuba of 1961 We picked the wrong one I'd like to go back to the question of the consensus and your relationship to the consensus You have said and the Constitution says that the decision can be made only by the president Now what was your relation to the consensus? Did you form no opinion until a consensus appeared or were you part of forming the consensus and had you disagreed with it? What then well, I think that well, you know that old story about the Abraham Lincoln in the cabinet He says all in favor say I and the whole cabinet Voted I and Then all pose no and Lincoln voted no and he said the voters no so that naturally the Constitution places the Responsibility on the president there was some disagreement with the course We finally adopted but the course we finally adopted had the advantage of permitting other steps if this one was unsuccessful In other words, we were starting in a sense at a minimum Place then if that were unsuccessful We could have gradually stepped it up until we had gone into a much more massive action Which might have become necessary if the first step had been unsuccessful I would think that the majority finally came to accept that though at the beginning there was a much sharper division and After all this was very valuable because the people who were involved had Particular responsibilities of their own mr. McNamara secretary of defense Therefore had to advise me on the military capacity of the United States in that area the secretary of state who had to advise on the attitude of the OAS and NATO so that In my opinion the majority came to accept the course we finally took it made it much easier The Cuba of 1961 the advice of those who were brought in on the executive branch was also unanimous And the advice was wrong so that in finally and I was responsible So it finally comes down that no matter how many advisers you have frequently or they had divided the president must finally choose The other point is something the president Eisenhower said to me in January 19 He said there's no easy matters will ever come to you as president if they're easy They will be settled at a lower level so the matters that finally come to you as president are always the difficult matters or matters which carry with them large implications so this contributes to some of the Burdens of the officer the presidency which other presidents have commented on during the Cuban crisis there was some problem that you're apparently familiar with and bored with by now about The possibility of a president talking in very private and secret conversations with his advisers and That somehow leaking out Do you think that this is going to inhibit the free frank flow of advice that every president has to have now? I think it's unfortunate when they're sort of conversations, but there are what a 1,300 reporters accredited to the White House alone There are I suppose a hundred or a hundred and fifty people who are familiar with what goes on Because in the Security Council meetings in one way or another You've got the people are actually there and you've got others who are given instructions as a result of the decisions there and I suppose people do talk and then as the I Said at the time of the Cuban disaster of April 61 that the success is a hundred fathers and defeats an orphan I Suppose when something goes well, there's more tendency to talk at all levels and Frequently the reports are inaccurate. I would say the security is pretty good at the National Security Council It's unfortunate when it's breached. Is it true that during your first year, sir? You would get on the phone personally to the State Department and Try to get a response to some inquiry that had been made. Yes. I still do that when I can because it's a I think the there's a great tendency in government to have papers stay on desks too long And I think that's one really of a function after all the president can't administer a department But at least he can be a stimulant Do you recall any response that's that you received from somebody who wasn't suspecting a phone call in State Department? Any specific response somebody made to you? No, they always a respond It takes a little while to get you know after the I met mr. Khrushchev Vienna and they gave us an aid memoir took me several many weeks to get our answer out through the State Department Coordinated with the British the French and the Germans Took much too long. It seems to me. We've been able to Speed it up, but this is a constant problem In various departments, there are so many interests that are involved in any decision No matter what the way the decision is about Africa or Asia it involves the Europe's desk It involves the desk of the place involves the Defense Department might involve the CIA frequently involves the Treasury might involve the World Bank Involves the United Nations delegation So it seems to me that one of the functions of the president is try to have it move with more speed Otherwise you can wait while the world collapses. You were once said that you were Reading more and enjoying it less. Are you still as avid a newspaper? Reader magazine, I remember those of us who traveled with you on the campaign a magazine wasn't safe around you Oh, it is no. No, I think it's the invaluable even though it may Cause you are some it's never pleasant to be reading things off frequently that are Not agreeable news, but I I would say that it's an invaluable arm of the presidency as a check really on what's going on in Administration and more things come to my attention that caused me the concern or give me information. So I Would think that mr. Khrushchev for operating a totalitarian system, which has many Advantages as far as being able to move in secret and all the rest. There's a terrific disadvantage not having me abrasive Quality of the press applied to you daily to an administration when you have even though we never like it And even though we don't even though we wish they didn't write it and even though we disapprove this still is There isn't any doubt that we couldn't do the job at all in a free society without a very very active Press now on the other hand the press has the responsibility not to distort things for political purposes Not to just take some news in order to prove a political point seems to me Their obligation is to be as tough as they can on administration But do it in a way which is directed towards getting as close to the truth that they can get and not merely because there's some political Motivation in the light of the election returns, which at the congressional level at least we're certainly a defeat for the Republican hopes How do you measure your chances for significant success domestically in the Congress just ahead? Well, I think we'll be in about the same position of the last two years. I think that As I say What we have that's controversial will be very closely contested Did the complexion of the house change a little bit by these shifts? I would say it's slightly against us more than it was not quite as good shape as he was for the last two years But we're about where we were the last two years Which means every vote will be three or four votes either way when you're losing Do you have a very crucial vote at the outset on this rules committee fight again? Do you think and I hope that the rules committee is kept to its present Number because we can't function if it isn't as well that we're through if we lose If they try to change the rule of nothing Controversial in that case would come to the floor of the Congress another word program in my opinion would be emasculated As a young congressman sir, you voted to impose a two-term limitation on presidents Now that you've held the office for a while and also observed its effect on president Eisenhower second term Would you repeat that vote even if the amendment did not apply to yourself? Yes, I would I would I know the conditions were special in 47 But I think eight years is enough and I'm not sure that a president if he's My case if I were reelected there that you're at such a disadvantage There aren't many jobs that isn't the power of the presidency patronage at all That's their field the first month most of those jobs belong to the members of the Congress anyway So patronage isn't a factor I think there are many other powers the presidency that run in the second term as well as the first Mr. President on that point the fact is president Eisenhower has great influence today in the Republican Party and therefore in the country and his Great influence in foreign policy. He doesn't even hold office in some ways his influence is greater in some to some degree So that then the same is really true of also a president Truman president Hoover I don't think that it depends on the influence of a president still substantial in his second term Though I haven't had a second term. I think it is Mr. President On that Point much of your program There still remains to be passed by the Congress There are some people who say that you either do it in the next two years or it won't be done Should you be elected to a second term? Do you share that point of view? You know in the first place, I think we've got a lot by I was looking at what we set out to do in January 61 the other day and on Taxes and on social security welfare changes and area redevelopment minimum wage the peace corps the Alliance for Progress that is In strengthening the defenses strengthening our space program We did all those things the trade bill not perhaps to the extent in every case of our original proposal, but substantial progress I think we can do some more than next two years And I would think that they're going to be new problems in sixty five reelected in 65 and I would I don't think I don't look at the second term as necessarily a decline and I don't think that at all. In fact, I think you know much more about the position It's a tremendous change to go from being a senator to being president in the first months It's a very difficult But I have no reason to believe that a president with the powers of this office and the responsibility is placed on it if he has a Judgment that some things need to be done and he can do it just as well the second time is the first depending Of course on the makeup of the Congress. The fact is I think the Congress looks more powerful Sitting here than it did when I was there in the Congress But that's because when you're in Congress you're one of a hundred in the Senate or one of four hundred and thirty-five in the house So that yours the power is so divided But from here I look at a Congress and I look at the collective power of the Congress particularly the block action Which it wants to and it's a substantial power. Mr. President Power like charities you know it begins at home and you seem to have one view of what we need to do at home and Congress Seems to have another view a lot of money will be appropriated for defense and national security But there's a certain reluctance to defer money to another form of capital investment Education and other things like that at home is a purely a question of money or is this religious thing? Really going to make it impossible for you to get in the Education Act past well education it's certainly the Question of how the funds will be distributed and how they will be shared is one of the factors the Integration question is another matter which comes into it. I think that You know Thomas Jefferson once said to expect the people to be ignorant and free is to expect what never was and never will be Here we're going to have twice as many people trying to go to college in 1970 is 1960 That means we have to build as many buildings in 10 years as we built the whole 160 years of our country's history then you've got these millions of young boys and girls who are dropping out of school Who are unskilled at a time when unskilled when skilled labor is needed and not unskilled So we need money for vocational training to train them in skills to retrain workers to provide assistance funds for Colleges and then to provide assistance to those who are going to get doctorates higher advanced in engineering science and mathematics We have a severe shortage there and yet we're asking for the space defense and all the rest of Soviet Union is Concentrating on this so all this requires funds But it's all in controversy Some people feel the federal government should play no role and yet the federal government since the land grant act and back the Northwest Ordnance has played a major role. I think the federal government has a great responsibility in the field of education We can't maintain our strength industrially militarily scientifically socially without very well educated citizenry and I think the federal government has a role to play so we're going to send up a program Unfortunately because of the fact as you mentioned and other reasons we've come close to getting assistance to education pass But we haven't been successful president is your problem of getting an education bill through this year Made more difficult by the events in Oxford, Mississippi and the use of federal troops there. Yes, I think so How will you combat this new? Well as I say we've got once this is a case of where we've come very close personalized now it came close We came close once we got a bill through the house The to the Senate almost through the house We didn't get it and another time for higher education through the Senate the house and then failed the conference failed now Oxford, Mississippi which is Made this whole question of the federal government and education more sensitive in some parts of the country I suppose that's going to be a factor against us I don't really know what of the role they would expect the president of the United States to play the court made up of southern judges Determined that it was according to the Constitution mr. Meredith go to the University of Mississippi the governor of Mississippi did opposed it and there was a rioting against mr. Meredith which endangered his life we sent in marshals and after all 150 or 60 marshals were wounded one way or another out of four or five hundred and at least three-fourth of the marshals were from the south themselves and Then we sent in troops when it appeared that the marshes were going to be overrun I don't think that there any buddy who looks at the situation could think we could possibly do anything else He possibly doing that, but on the other hand, I recognize that it's caused a lot of bitterness against me and against the national government in Mississippi and other parts and Though they expect me to carry out my oath Constitution and that's what we're going to do But it does make it more difficult to pass an education bill, but I think we shouldn't penalize this great resource of our youth For all these reasons instead. We ought to do the job and get some and get these schools built these teachers Compensated in higher education available to all these boys and girls and every time I drive around the country That's all you see are six and seven and eight nine-year-old children We're going to be pouring into our schools and colleges and every governor will tell you that's his major problem providing educational facilities With the national government as responsibility if we could return for a moment to this subject of the president's responsibility and foreign affairs now when Some congressmen disagreed with your course of action over Cuba on that Monday The responsibility you had by the Constitution was very clear But in domestic matters where the responsibility is divided How do you use the presidency in Theodore Roosevelt's phrase the bully pulpit to Move these men who really are kind of barons and Sovereigns in their own right up there on the hill have you any way to move them toward a course of action which you think is imperative Well, the Constitution and the development of the Congress all Give advantage to delay. It's a very easy to defeat a bill in the Congress is much more difficult to pass To go through a committee say the ways and means committee of the House Subcommittee and get a majority vote full committee get a majority vote go to the rules committee and get a rule Go to the floor of the house and get a majority Start over again in the Senate subcommittee and full committee and in the Senate There is unlimited debate so you can never bring a matter to a vote if there's enough determination in the part of the opponents even if they're a minority to go through the Senate with the bill and then Unanimously get a conference between the House and Senate to adjust the bill or one member of Jax to have it go back through the rules committee Back through the Congress and have this down on a controversial piece of legislation where powerful groups are opposing it That's an extremely difficult task so that The struggle for a president who has a program to move it through the Congress particularly when the seniority system may place particular Individuals in key positions who may be wholly unsympathetic to your program may be even though they're members of your own party and political opposition to the president This is a struggle which every president who's tried to get a program through has had to deal with After all Franklin Roosevelt was elected by the largest majority in history in 1936 And he got his worst defeat a few months afterwards in the Supreme Court bill So that they are two separate officers and two separate powers the Congress and the presidency There's bound to be conflict we but they must cooperate to the degree that possible But that's why no president's programs ever put in the entire president's program is put in Quickly and easily is when the program is insignificant But if it's significant and affects important interests and is controversial therefore Then there's a fight and then the president is never wholly successful. Mr. President Which is the better part of wisdom to take a bill that's completely emasculated that you had great interest in and Accepted or accepted defeat in the hope of building up public support for it at a later time Oh, I would say given the conditions you described I think it would be better to accept the defeat that usually what has happened and what has happened to us in the last two Years a good many of our bills passed in reasonable position not the way we sent them up But after all the Congress has its own will do And own feelings and its own judgment and they are close to the people the whole house representatives have just been elected So that it's quite natural that they will have a different perspective than I may have So I would say that what we ought to do is get do the best we can but if it's completely emasculated Then there's no sense in having the shadow of success and not the substance. Mr. President this exercise of presidential power I think perhaps the best-known case and the most Widely talked about was your rollback of steel prices after they had been announced by the steel company Some people have suggested that in retrospect perhaps you would not have acted so vigorously Is there any truth in this suggestion? No, I must say I think it would have been a very serious situation if Though I don't like to rake over old fire I think it would have been a serious situation if I had not attempted with all my influence to try to get a rollback because There was an issue of good faith involved the steel union that accepted the most limited settlement that they had had since the end of the second War they had accepted it three or four months ahead. They did it in part I think because I said that we could not afford another inflationary spiral that would affect our Competitive position abroad so they signed up and then when their last contract was signed Which was the Friday of Saturday before? Then the steel put its prices up immediately I've seen to me that that was the question of good faith was involved and that if I had not attempted After asking the unions to accept a non-inflationary settlement if I hadn't attempted to use my influence To have the companies hold their prices stable I think the unions could have rightfully felt that they had been misled and my opinion it would have been endangered the whole Bargaining between labor and management would have made it impossible for us to exert any influence From the public point of view in the future on these great They were management disputes which do affect the public interest so I have no regrets the fact is we were successful Now supposing we had tried and made a speech about it and then failed I Would have thought that would have been an awful setback to the office of the presidency And now I just think that looking back on it. I wouldn't Change it at all. There's no sense in raising And and then not being successful There's no sense of putting the opposite of the presidency on the line on an issue and then being defeated now an unfortunate