 Thank you for being here this evening. As I've always wanted to be Dr. Ruth, let's talk about sex. I mean, let's talk about sex in your work. That's the perfect answer. Why do you think in our western and supposedly open culture, sex and art still seems to disturb people? We've always campaigned for a day when sexuality is a question of nil, that we don't have divisions or divisiveness, that there is no gay or straight or this or that. Is it just that everyone is a sexual person? It's quite interesting because if you go through the antique museums, you see full of sex, don't you think? Like medieval times, just full of all the Romans or the Greeks, they are just all big erections, full of stuff. And now when you come up to 2001, we are all shy about sex, and we are all hiding it. And especially, okay, maybe you can do some painting news, painting you can, but when you have them photographically in a museum, this taboo. Do you think this has changed at all during your 40-plus years of working together? Has it gotten more difficult to portray nudity, sexuality, or has it seemed to...? I think we've made enormous progress. The whole world has changed enormously in the last 40 years, and I think we'd like to think we've played a small part in that change. What about all the advertising on the streets? They used to be so old-fashioned. Now they all look like all the queers on the street. I think you're right. Let's take a step back if we could, and for those of the members of our audience who don't know your history, it would be great to learn a little bit about how you met and how you began working together, and also how the whole concept of living sculpture came about. It's fairly simple because we met in London in 1967 as students at Martin School of Art, and when we left we were completely alone. We were without a studio, without money, we were very poor, and we hadn't been the goody-goody students who could get a part-time teaching job. We certainly couldn't ask for a grant from the Arts Council, which is what all the other students did. So there we were alone in the world without a studio, and that moment that we were the art, we were living the art. Not only that, because when I arrived in England, and I couldn't speak very good English, so George seemed to be the only person who was interested in me. In language lessons? Yes, I know, sign language was a lot to do with. But it was quite extraordinary because in 1967, instead of actually making art, we used to walk London day and night, and he took me to these extraordinary places like East End of London that really looked like a Dickens book. It was just fantastic, all this yellow light on all these narrow streets, and that's where George used to live already in 1964, and in 1968 we moved to number Tufonia Street, where we are still. And then we had two enormous pieces of luck. Again, we always believe that bad luck leads to good luck, and there was the occasion of a very famous international Travenny Exhibition group show called When Attitude Becomes Fall, and when it arrived in the city, a local curator was asked to add to the show three or four artists from that city, and we knew it was coming to the ICA in London, and we knew the selector was going to be Charles Harrison, a very famous person who knew us and knew our art, and so we were extremely happy. We thought, here's our chance to launch ourselves into the world of art, and then to our amazement, he didn't choose us. So we were plunged into an enormous doom and depression, and then we thought, what can we do about this? We can't exhibit in this famous exhibition, and then we thought we can go as living sculptures to the opening. So we had our multicoloured metalized heads and hands, we went to the private view, we stood in the middle of the ICA, and entirely stole the show. And at the end of the evening, probably the most famous European art dealer of his time, Conrad Fischer came up to us and said, I am Conrad Fischer, you do something with me in Düsseldorf, huh? I can just hear the voice. And it was quite exciting because in 1969, when we left St. Martin's School of Art, every day we wanted to be artists, but we didn't have a studio, so we used to send out all these, what, postal sculptures, and we used to do magazine sculptures that we did, Gilbertschitt and George Recount in 1969, and we took that magazine sculpture to all the galleries of London if they would show it for one afternoon. And everybody said no, except Robert Fraser, who used to be the most famous art dealer at that time, and he said, yes. Did he keep it for more than an afternoon? No, it was just the afternoon, but that's all we wanted. And then the other extraordinary piece of luck was doing the singing sculpture in a small, very unimportant gallery in Brussels. And at the end of the evening, a lady who we thought of that time was a very old lady, which she was, I mean, younger than us now, came up to us and said, Much. Yes. She said, my name is Ileana Sonneben, and I'm opening a gallery in New York, and I want you to do the opening exhibition. And we knew her just from the name in magazines, as art students who look at all the advertisements in the art magazines. So there was an enormous opportunity, it was the beginning of downtown, West Broadway, 420 West Broadway. We remembered the day the Saturday had opened, the pundits were saying, it's quite an interesting idea to probably catch on in the few years. It caught on that day. The whole of Seoul was filled with people. The police department was called out, the fire department was called out. And it was very exciting because we came like some innocent boys to New York, and so we were taken out by all these artists. It was extraordinary. So friendly to us. So friendly to both of us. And we started to drink every single night. During the day, we used to do the singing sculpture for eight hours nonstop. In the seven or eight o'clock in the evening, we were drinking for four, five, six, seven hours. Every day, it was extraordinary. One day, George was vomiting that side, and I told him, I can be still without going on nonstop. We especially chose different dishes for dinner so we could check whose is the vomit in the next one. And amazingly, at that time, as well as the singing sculpture, we also showed the general jungle, much of which is on show in your retunda now. And we brought that in ourselves, and we filled it up in a big box, and the customs people opened the box and took an enormous interest. They liked it. Did they open it up entirely? Yeah, they opened up a big page, and they said, it's wonderful. It's beautiful. It's great. They thought it was some treasure, some valuable thing. And then they said, who did it? We said, we did it. They said, we'll get out of here. I want to go back for a moment to Conrad Fisher, because I know you have a wonderful story that relates to the motto, the theme of Art for All, that has really become almost an identity for your work for so many years. It's very funny, because with Art for All, we started in 1968, the idea of Art for All. But at that time, Art for All was not for the elitist galleries. They didn't like the idea of Art for All because they thought they were making art for only very, only some few people who tended to understand it. So it was a very early exhibition with Conrad in the Tunnel Gallery, and we had a wonderful evening. I think we even sold one or two pictures, which we were amazed and excited by. And we had a lovely dinner, and part of it was very, very happy. And then the next morning, we went into the gallery, and there was Conrad sitting at his desk with the telephone there, looking rather down in the mouth. And we said to have a hangover, we're still looking, so we determined to find out what was wrong. We said, what is wrong? Why are you looking so miserable? He said, the woman who comes to clean, she likes your exhibition. That's the story. The kiss of death. If you did colour, it was wrong. If you did sensuality, it was wrong. If you did feelings, it was wrong. It had to be a square, or a circle, or a line. That's how we began the drinking sculpture, because we were going out every night when we were socially involved in the artist, and getting completely crazy in dancing, and we realised that all the others were going to the studio the next day and just doing a perfect circle. So we thought, let's involve the drinking in our art, because it's such a big subject all over the world, with the law, with families, with hospitals, with death, with everything. It is a subject. That's how we started. But with all that drinking, it would be hard to draw a perfect circle. We didn't want to draw a perfect circle. Going back to when you were students for a moment, when you were at St Martin's, were there specific artists who you admire the work that they were doing then, or even earlier artists? I don't think I've ever talked to you about that. He was inspired by... I mean, when I was 13, 14 years old, I saw Michelangelo as my father. In Georgia, he had a different idea. I always thought, because as a teenager, I bought a second-hand copy of the Letters of Engauch. And the one thing I saw in reading was that children do everything wrong, the wrong family, the wrong training, everything, and get it right. Just make amazing pictures that at this moment, somewhere in the world, somebody's looking at those pictures and having extraordinary emotions. And did you visit museums at that point? Yes, a little. But we tried to... I mean, we didn't like so much to look at other people's art. Already at that time, we felt that we wanted to be outsiders. George always had this idea that he wanted to be a super tramp. I think he succeeded in some way. But it's very good, because after that, five years, ten years later, we started actually never to go near a gallery. We stopped going to galleries, stopped going to museums and didn't want to be contaminated. And do you think that worked? Oh, yes. 100%. 100%. We need a lot of space in front of us for our brains and our feelings. So if you cut out all the thinking that you're involved with, if you're socially involved with people and parties, it's much better to be alone and weird and normal. Weird is important. But it's very important even when we are in the studio. We never want anybody to see our pictures before they are finished. I've known you for 35 years. I've never seen them. No, because we only show them when it is too late. And even because when somebody comes into the studio, they would say, oh, I like that red one. That's already too much. They're already contaminated. We have to do the opposite now. Along that subject, there are so many of us who have admired your work for so long, but know very little except what we've read about your life, about your day-to-day routine, about, and even how that's changed over the years that you've lived on Fournier Street because of the changing conditions in the neighborhood. All those neighbors and restaurants and even your tailors who have changed over the years. Could you tell us a little bit about day-to-day of Gilbert and George? We like change. We're very organized and very regimental in the studio, in our lives. We dine at the same time. We have breakfast at the same time. But we like the ongoing changes around us. We like seeing life. We believe that everything is progress. We look at the window of something different. We've seen when we first moved to the district it was Yiddish speaking. The off-licence was Jewish. The restaurants, the cafes were Jewish. Everything was Jewish. Then it became very briefly Somali. They all came in. They were very open. We filed teeth at that time extraordinarily. And then it became Maltese for a while. Maltese. Playing cards all day with ferrets and causation dogs. The synagogue became a mosque. We've seen the Jewish off-licence. It became a Bengali music shop. All the shops have changed in their way. Even the gents' public lavatory on Whitechapel has become an Indian restaurant. Some young friends would recommend it to us. They said it's delicious food. The service is very good. And it's eating or taking away. I said it always was. I always love to walk with you on Brook Lane or anywhere in your neighborhood. Everyone recognizes you. Everyone is so friendly. Has that persisted to today? Or has that changed? It's very interesting because our greatest fortune was that in Furness Street there used to be the Market Cafe. Clyde and Philip, the elder gentleman who had this cafe there. It was just extraordinary because it was so crowded at night. So we would be there at 6 o'clock in the morning. We could have roast beef sandwich completely fresh. He was a genius that person. The only genius we ever met. Except us. So he stopped and now we have to find different places. They are not as good as that. The district is just fantastic because everybody knows that and nobody troubles us. George goes every night. He does one and a half hour walk every single night. I do a 45 minute walk exactly 8 o'clock behind the restaurant. Tell us about your tailoring. Because I know so much about that from years past. But tell us a little bit about... It's a big long chain. It was Mr. Chaplin Mr. Lievenberg Mr. Lustig, our neighbor David London This is the last suit made by David London and we'll have to find another tailor. There won't be any more Jewish tailors anymore. Where have they gone? We said to the tailors why don't your children take a picture? They have teenage children who do tailoring. The tailor said what do you call the son of a Jewish tailor? A brain surgeon. The earlier tailor tailors an extraordinary thing as well because they were always rather elderly so they would retire and sell us to the next tailor. It was also quite elderly. They were always very keen to get the order of the suit because then they would get the payment from the last tailor. One was retiring. We said that's a disaster. What are we going to do? He said don't worry. He says I'm not retiring entirely. I'm going to be in Israel with my daughter for six months of the year and I'll be able to do your tailoring. I said that's marvelous to have tailoring in London and then you'll be tailoring in Israel. He probably said are you crazy? You can't do business with those people? Why do you only walk halfway with George? Because they have flat feet. I should have known. It's always a reason. I wanted to ask a little but we talked a little bit about the changes around Forney A Street but what else has changed? What has been very important to you about how there's the change in London overall and especially in the East End? I must admit personally we more and more I would say we put on blinkers. We don't see a lot because we are in our studio all the time now becoming more possessed. More possessed? We are totally mad so every day we have to be 7 o'clock in the morning in the studio working like possessive people. Last year we did 153 new works not one day off not even the others. I wanted to ask a question about to again help some of the members of our audience and others coming to see the show that there's often a debate or at least a discussion about what your art is. Many of us for years have called it sculpture others have called it photography and we know very well that you're certainly not photographers in any sense of the word but how in helping our audience how would you describe what you do? Pictures Your artists and we make pictures very simple. People would understand that anywhere in the world nice and democratic and simple Like the Renaissance we are doing pictures and we are speaking through pictures they are frozen pictures A number of people have said I'm not making an ageist statement here because we're all about the same age that you've been called the fathers of the YBAs of the young British artists Many of them look up to you some of them acknowledge the impact that you've had on the change and audience perception in London and all over Europe, all over Asia Do you see any of that new work actually having come out of what you've been doing for so many years? We're not sure about that What do we call ourselves? Because I think we're very supportive of young artists I think every country needs more and more artists there aren't enough artists in the world anyway You have to remember that in the early 70s when we were baby artists if you asked people on the streets of London to name an artist they would always say Leonardo da Vinci or Van Gogh would always be a dead overseas person A dead foreigner And now if you ask the name of a living artist there are all four or five or six names of artists even people who work in cafes and I think that's better You don't need to know just the names of living politicians murderers and sports people In that order We wouldn't say that we were the fathers or godfathers of the artists maybe the fairy godmothers We waved the wall Yes Speaking about how people now know your names in London there is a great story that I heard but I want you to tell it and verify it about a conversation that took place in a cab between some American collectors and you continue Some families of American collectors went to London separate from different cities to see a show of ours at White Cube so they met in a London hotel and then travelled in a taxi to the East End In the taxi they were discussing which pictures of ours they owned and which ones they were reserving and which ones they would like to have got couldn't get So one lady was saying I wanted to buy shit on piss and the next London cabbie was listening so the lady leaned forward and said excuse me young man I hope you don't think we're vulgar Americans swearing back here we're discussing contemporary artworks and the driver said ooh, must be that good wind jorginal smooze And I can verify without mentioning all the titles of your work I can verify that every cab driver especially the older cab drivers when I've said I'm coming to Forney A Street they said oh you must be visiting Gilbert & George Oh it's true It's absolutely true The one point and part of the exhibition upstairs which makes a very important point are all of the early paper sculptures general jungle especially and it depicts nature in a way that hasn't really continued in your work beyond the 70s what about nature I mean nature was very simple because we were lonely people so we used to walk the parks of London and so we were very innocent we took images of us in the park we saw the ideal equal life and then we had the shows in Düsseldorf and we sold one of these drawing pieces for one thousand pound and we were so shocked that we were drunk for two years that's why we changed everything that's it and we changed totally from that that's it we did the drinking stuff and we never looked back that's why we never redid them coming from both country boys and we didn't know how to accept being in the city we weren't familiar with newspapers we never watched television so we could only express us through what we knew it took us a long time through the drinking and meeting people to become city people in fact we forgot nature and our backgrounds in that way one day we said let's go and see some friends in the country in North Devon and we went down and we saw this nature for the first time in 30 years and we were amazed we got up early in the morning and there was no traffic and we were buzzing in the hedges as we walked up the village high street and there were birds swooping down on the estuary and we thought this is unbelievable so perfect and then we came to the little parish church and outside the parish church was a very young couple with a little baby in a pram and the church with all the tombstones and the flowers and we thought it was absolutely paradise and we turned to the couple and said good morning and the young man turned and snarled and said that's why we left the country I'm not quite sure I can come up with another question there after that I would like just to ask one other question not about so much your art but you're very great collectors which I think people don't know and although once in a while in catalogues of your work you're shown in Fornier Street with some of your collections would you talk about that very simply because in 1979 we stopped going to the cinema we decided it was too expensive in 1979 so we started we had a certain interest in collecting in looking at 19th century furniture and old vases and books and every Sunday we used to go and look through the windows of the shops and the day after we used to buy them immediately on Monday morning so we started to collect so much and spent all our money for six years absolutely every penny that we had especially thousands especially thousands we have 2,000 or 3,000 vases we have sideboards like 30, 40 sideboards we have books George has a special dirty collection of maybe 20,000 books so we are doing very well and because we are going to arrange a foundation I was just going to ask you that so that our collections our art and the 240 street houses the students will remain there because we have every design of every artwork that we ever did even the designs of all the catalogs that we ever did even we have the article the first article going back 69 and every negative and even social photographs and art from different people even we have a very big collection of our own art so it's quite an interesting idea we talked about the fact that there are no 20th century or 21st century artists houses in London there are very few in fact none in London there isn't one if they even move the Bacon studio to Ireland so I think in that one century in the bed it's quite good to have an artist house open to the public so you will be able to see the rooms where we are sleeping standing up I think everyone believes that actually it's true let me take just a few moments that we have left and invite any questions that we might have from the audience we don't believe that we are a collaboration we never accept to be in group exhibitions called collaborations we believe as Arnold said we are two people but one artist so we're not working together as one it's a mystery to us as well I must say we believe that Andy and Pop Artists in general were a celebration of consumerism and we want to be a celebration of humanism well spotted because we always say the art world was always written by the art world meant naked ladies for the last 2,000 years every artist did naked ladies because the man had the checkbook and the man wanted to look naked ladies and we thought we should do something different once to change the balance a little there's still the fact today that we have a pair of Edwardian oil portraits of the husband with a nice army jacket on suit and the other portrait the wife the lady one would always have a higher price that's why we're feminist their next show will be in our feminist galleries I was trying to decide what would be appropriate as a little gift a token for Gilbert and George in coming to Brooklyn and so I hope not pajamas no we're not talking about that and so I went to the heart of Brooklyn the Fulton Mall and we've got these hoodies what could be more Brooklyn Gilbert and George at the Brooklyn Museum so one for each in keeping with your tailoring and when I come to London the next time just very good I think we love the hoodies it's kind of it's kind of