 Hey everybody, welcome to the Zelda Informer Podcast, I'm Adam as always, and this week I'm joined by... Uh, Nathanael Uncle Jance, editor-in-chief of Zelda Informer. Colin MacIsaac, managing editor. I'm just some dude. That's all you need to know about me. I'm Jake. I'm Jake. This is the Zelda Informer Podcast, and on it we're going to talk about anything related to Zelda, Nintendo, or gaming in general. It's all fair game. It's a community podcast, so feel free to email us at zeldinformerpodcastsatgmail.com with any stories, questions, or topics you'd like us to discuss, and we'll be sure to read them and respond and bring them up in the show. This week's episode is revolving around Tokyo Game Show, which is just going on now. How's everybody doing tonight, by the way? I'm doing pretty good. Yeah, a little tired, but I just got done with my, you know, super long four-hour workday. Good to hear. Super long. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. So, I don't know if you guys have seen the news. Tokyo Game Show is currently going on. It's right now in business phase. By the way, this podcast is being recorded on Thursday night. It's going to be going up on Saturday, just so you know. By the time this podcast airs, the public section of the Tokyo Game Show will be going on. But what's come out so far is really interesting in its own right. Hyrule Warriors has already been confirmed with several DLC, one of which is being free DLC, which is free to play as three different villains. You know, I was kind of surprised that they didn't have the villains in the game to begin with. I was too. Yeah, when they announced like Gereham and Zant and Ganondorf, I figured that the three Hyrule Warriors villains would be like, round out the rest of the villains cast to have, I guess, I don't know, sort of like a dual story where, you know, half the time you play as heroes and half the time as villains. Yeah, it definitely felt like a weight displacement with the heroes and villains. I'm glad they're, I'm certainly glad it's free, but it's definitely cool to be able to play as them. I think it was just a precautionary measure. Maybe they were still going through some bugs with some of the... Yeah, I mean, I do know Hyrule Warriors distinctly had a very small development period. So I guess it stands to the reason they'd be patched in later on. Yeah, it was within like the year or something, wasn't it? Yeah, you do kind of see it though. Some crazy short amount of time. Yeah, with the DLC that's currently coming out, the Hyrule Warriors Master Quest pack, Twilight Princess pack, Majora's Mask pack, and Ganon pack, you're getting a bunch of new content, which means they really had a lot more ideas than if they had like another year to develop. I'm pretty sure all this would be included in this game. There's going to be new game modes, new characters, two of which are Majora's Mask, which I actually want to talk about. I'm very okay with that. And new adventure maps, new weapons, new scenarios, a bunch of, just a bunch of stuff. The whole thing is actually going for 30 bucks for pre-order right now, 3,000 yen. Yeah, it's also, it actually just got announced by Nintendo's Twitter like an hour ago. It's $20 in the US. Oh really? Really? Awesome. They lower the price for the US. Yeah, I mean you could buy them all individually, or you could buy the, you know, they're calling it a season pass. Yeah. You get the dark link stuff right away. Yeah. I actually just bought it my... Oh, it's already, is it already up? Well, I have the review copy, so they've released some things already. Oh, so... Like I have a new one update already. Do you have the DLC, or do you have just... No, the DLC itself doesn't come out until... Well, no, I know that. Yeah, no, I have dark link. Oh, nice. Is he Count of the Villain, or is he just a skin of Link? He's a skin of Link. Okay, same voice, same everything. I saw him, and he looks fantastic. Yeah, nothing changes, just a skin. Fair enough. Which, it's interesting, given how dark Link is actually kind of in the story mode itself. Isn't he like summoned by Sia or something? Spoilers! Yeah, he's like... Spoiler warning, for those listening, I know a lot of our European fans have probably already had the game, but I had the review copy, so I've played the hell out of that thing. Yeah, yeah, they have the demo set up. The whole game is spinning in my mind. I literally can't go a moment of my day without thinking about how Roy is right now. And no, there's a lot I could talk about, but when it comes to the dark link thing, it really surprised me they've made that a costume. Because in the story, Sia makes dark link kind of resemble a little bit like he did in Ocarina of Time, where you're fighting against your dark self, because you're kind of fighting against your own ambitions because Link is super cocky. It just dawned on me, not too long ago, the reason you fight dark link. Because in the manga, he faces off with dark link in the shadow temple, which stands the reason. But it didn't occur to me so pretty recently that the reason he's in the water temple is because it's supposed to represent reflection. And it's surprisingly deep, because Ocarina of Time, I mean, you could say what you want about it, but it wasn't necessarily story driven so much. I mean, the plot was definitely there and the plot was solid enough, but you wouldn't imagine something so subversive or something like that, you know what I mean? Right. The gameplay was more directed by the plot with the like the barriers that were set up just to make sure that the player would stay within certain areas. A lot of it had to do more with the story than anything else. Like, oh, you can't go here until you've talked to this person and this person and gotten this special pass from this person or this item to get here. So yeah, I definitely see what you mean with the story not really being as important as in other legends. And it really had that correlation. It was just really interesting because it's actually one of my favorite parts of the story. Basically, Link pulls the Master Sword and he just gets cocky as shit. He's basically, you know, as soon as he pulls the Master Sword, they say like, oh, he's just wiping out a horse by the hundreds. You know, he kind of sounds like William Wallace and the Braveheart. Are we talking about Hyrule Warriors or what? Yeah, Hyrule Warriors. You know, I heard, you know, he takes out hundreds of men with fireballs from his eyes and stuff. Like, Link just gets super freaking cocky. He's just, he's just like staring, he's like Cyclops. He's just shooting people with laser beams from his eyes while screaming and holding the Master Sword. Yeah, and that's how he actually ends up fighting Dark Link is because he kind of abandons his friends and thinks he could just do everything himself. Wow. And that's how Cia captures him to fight against several different versions of Dark Link. And that version is just, you know, several of them at a time. That's surprisingly complex for Hyrule Warriors. I was reading the Western reviews. Yeah, it's actually the story. Yeah, like, I might review, I know I said the story itself, you know, it's nothing too spectacular. Yeah, it's the general consensus of it. Right. But there are little interesting things like the whole Link getting really cocky. And basically the backstory for Cia and Link has a lot more personality than really any other, like a Zelda game would have for a typical villain or a typical Link. But the rest of the story, like, you know, the stuff, you know, with Darunia and which I've just totally butchered that name. That's about it. That's how I pronounce it. Darunia. Is it? Yeah. I'm terrible at pronouncing it. And I say everything the right way. That's one thing I hate about games. Even if I don't know, that's how to say it. That's how to say it. So the one time I butchered it and think I butchered it, I didn't. And when I do butchered it, I think I said it right. That's one thing I hate about games where you have to read there's no voice dialogue. This day, I still like the Pokemon. I have so many like arguments about how they're pronounced like it. People tell me it's Sceptile, like Trico's final one, but I call it Skeptile and I've been calling that for years. You're just a skeptic, aren't you? Oh, Adam. Clever bastard. But I really like that. I just like that they actually made Dark Link. Just because once you get past the story, the story mode is only like maybe a quarter of the entire Hyrule Warriors game. The rest of the game is very open to having everything possible that you could think of throwing just because they want to. And I guess I can understand, you know, like you said, like Jake said, they had a short development time so that's probably why I see of Volga and Wisrow didn't make it in. It does. Yeah, it does explain a... They kind of used the... Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah. They can kind of use the excuse, and the reason that they could probably get away with it is just because they are the only ones in the story mode that you don't get a chance to play as. Yeah. So they don't have... Makes a little more coveted. ...a reason. Yeah, like there's no real reason. Like once you beat Sia, that's it. That's the end of the story. To be honest though, I'm not exactly going in wanting to play as all the other like... I can't remember her name. The blue-haired girl. Lana. Sorry. I'm more there for like the characters that I do know from the Zelda lore. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the only reason I even like Lana is because of the... Yeah, that's a pretty awesome move. Attack. Which they could have given to Saras. They are so awesome. Yeah, yeah. From what I know about the story, I really like Lana, and from what you're saying, it sounds like they're really focused on the characters and the actual plot. The plot itself is very... The focus on making characters more detailed and developed. Yeah, it's just sort of there. The character depth is nice. But I don't mind that. The characters are interesting. Yeah. The reason is kind of weak. Yeah. I mean, it's there, but it's... That's more... It literally is just straight-ripped out of, hey, look, there's three parts to the Triforce, so we're going to split things in three and make you go collect things to... Yeah. Put it back together. Oh, so that's why it's Skyward Sword, Twilight Princess, and... Yeah, well, except that it's not the Triforce. Oh, that's such a roof. Yeah, I'm not crazy about it either. I know the main reason. They could have just admitted, look, this isn't a game about a story. This is a game about getting shit up as Zelda characters. Go crazy. And it would have been less cute. Well, this is a love letter to the... This is a love letter to the Zelda franchise. It's not about the story. It's more about, like, looking for the character in place. But you can tell how there's me a little bit. I know the main reason that they went for those three games specifically is because they have recent 3D references that they can work with. As opposed to games like Link Between Worlds, which just came out. And definitely would have appreciated some fan service there. But it went for these three because it was easier for the developers, I feel. That's why I was so impressed when they finally announced there's a Majora's Mask pack. I was like, oh, God, yes, please. Right, well, but that's the thing. I feel like you can tell that they tried so hard to make everything exactly even. Yeah. That they kind of pulled things, they kind of really had to force some stuff. And they really had to cut back on some other stuff. Like, you know, they have three characters from each of those three games, but I think everyone in the entire Zelda fan base would have preferred to have Skull Kid over that. And no one would care that it's one Majora's Mask character and only two Twilight Princess characters. And that kind of gets into the whole, you know, I'm not going to say that they so much as went to say, hey, we're going to cut some stuff out of the game and put it as Nintendo. No, of course they didn't. But I mean, you know, Warriors games always have DLC and obviously they have a plan for it. And it's just been one of those things they decided early on, hey, we're not really going to touch Majora's Mask like characters or world. We're just going to be like, hey, you know what, we'll concentrate on that after development and do DLC for it. Right. Because they could shoehorn that in throughout their time. What really floors me, though? Actually, if you look at the Majora's Mask DLC pack, I wonder who those are. Majora. And you would have to have. I just heard something. With the characters they chose from Twilight Princess, I don't know if there is a for sure. Yeah, it really threw me up. Okay, if it's anyone, but Skull Kid and Tingle, I will be absolutely shocked. Yeah, I was too. Tingle. I'm curious as to who the second one would be. I would be surprised. Of course. If Skull Kid's not in it, then they're going to be Skull Kid. It has to be Skull Kid. I will be broken inside. I can't call the DLC Majora's Mask DLC and not have Skull Kid. So, one thing that's really throwing me off, though, is one of the packs is titled just Twilight Princess. And I would imagine they'd want to branch out a little bit more. I was expecting something more in the vein of Wind Waker because they have more to work with air. Exactly. I think, I think, even like Spirit Tracks or like even just like a handheld pack with like Yuga and Burn and like this goes back to my original thought on why they chose the games they did. And, you know, I know Skyward Store works against it a bit, but they kind of chose games that their art styles kind of all go together. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And the Wind Waker, like they did the Wind Waker with some of the story panels and I'm pretty sure that's what, you know, and they put the item in the game and that in the Deku Leaf, but it's kind of one of those, the art style, the characters doesn't match. They'd have to completely redesign the character if they want to fit it in the game. Right. No, I completely agree. Art style. So it would still be cartoony in its own sense, like what are these two links with drastically different head sizes doing, but it still would have been more preferable. Oh, sure. And given what the game is. Well, I don't know, it's not even so much about the art style, but just like the entire premise of Hyrule Warriors kind of doesn't make sense if you have a guy who's the same character. Toon Link and Link are the same age, by the way, who's half as tall and twice as wild. That really depends on what game, though. Like, he's the same as Young Link from Ocarina of Time, but that varies. No, he's not. He is. Same age. Yeah. This is a debate that's been covered over and over again. We won't do it in the podcast. I couldn't do it. Didn't they say... No, Toon Link is 16. Okay. Or around there. Wind Waker Link is 16, like for real? Like, definitely. Around there, yeah. Something like that. He's like, dude, he's Young Link. That's the whole point. It's like he puts on... Look at 16. No, there have been several debates about this. But just look at afterwards. Look at it. We can have another episode. Okay, okay. We'll wait. We could. I just want to leave it with there actually was an adult design for Link in Wind Waker. Yeah. He was going to age in the game. That was a feature they wanted to go for, is like having... I just want to throw that out there. I know that there's debate and there's beneficial word that, you know, he's 16 or whatever, but I don't think his design was ever designed. It definitely doesn't reflect the 16. Oh, no. I'm sure it was. I don't think anybody could get that, man. No, none at all. The other podcast when we don't know as much to talk about. One of the characters I could have seen them using in Hyrule Warriors is Rabio from on the two worlds. That would have been pretty cool. He definitely has a massive arsenal. Yeah, because of like... Well, the question I have is... A Hilda skin. We know what these DLC packs are coming out, so we know that there's I think three new characters we could debate about or debate on what that new... because they're adding like, it looks like a new battlefield. Yeah, for each pack it seems to. Well, no, they're adding new things to adventure which is good. But like, they're adding like a whole scenario. New maps are being added. Yeah, they're adding a brand new scenario for one of the master quest pack, I think. Oh, that's the master quest pack. Because when I first saw the title it was Ura Zelda and I was like... So I guess that's what I knew it was master quest working class. Yeah, so I think they're adding one whole new like scenario which to me is a whole new battlefield like from story mode kind of thing. And then they're adding, they're adding adventure mode like they're adding the maps. So I'm guessing that just like an adventure how adventure mode works currently for Legend of Zelda it'll just work the same for the other games maps. Okay. And that's actually huge because adventure mode already takes a long time. Right. They're already adding a lot of gameplay right now. So... Yeah. How many... If I can ask and I guess spoilers kind of how many hours would you estimate the campaign itself is? It took me... Oh, I miss you. According to my Wii U it took me 13 hours. Really? That's not how bad. But I, you know, there's... And the Wii U is actually really good about this. Like it tries to cut out the time because there was more time because I spent so much time taking screenshots and writing down some notes for the walkthrough. But, you know, the Wii U had me clocked at 13. It supposedly, I read that Wii U cuts out the time when you get the home clock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it apparently was what it took me. And that was the first time through, you know, and I'd rushed some of the things. I didn't get all the skatoulas the first time through. Right. So there's things you could do that adds to it. And then when you beat it like there's a whole new set of skatoulas that pop up. So you have to replay the whole mode again. To be honest, I was a little scared to be honest. I know this is jumping gears a little bit. But we knew the Famitsu like reception for it quite a while ago on Japan like a month ago. And it was like nines across the board. I'm a little skeptical of Famitsu though because I feel like they, you know, Japanese games are, you know, Japanese players, American players, they have different tastes and styles. So when the Western reviews came out and were a little bit more critical, I was a little bit cautious of what to expect. But I mean the first ones that come out were like polygon and I can't remember what else. But I remember polygon and this might just be me, but I feel like polygon was very harsh. It's not about ground zero. That is not a five out of ten. But yeah, I read some of the other reviews and I'm much more pleased. It's roughly like I'd say 73 on Metacritic, which isn't too bad. But the thing is, is that I find that better than Destiny? Yeah, fuck. Dude, I could talk hours about how annoyed I am with Destiny, but I don't think this is that kind of podcast. Yeah. I mean kind of are we allowed to talk about Destiny? Is that are we? No, we should keep moving. Honestly, I honestly have something I would like to say about Metal Gear in particular on this podcast. Well, let's go for it. Go for it. If that's for now or another time. Since you mentioned it. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, because Kojima was also at Tokyo Game Show. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they announced something that made me just take a spit take. There's going to be a clothing line for Metal Gear. Yeah, what? Yep, shoes, camouflage focus and features Dude, I want that phone case. There's going to be a PS4 Why are they making a clothing line and the first thing they release is not a hat that's just a gigantic box. You know what they release though? What? Snake's Pathetic Arm. The red arm from Metal Gear Solid. That's sick. You can buy one. That's pretty damn cool. I think that's hilarious because you can slap people with snake's hand now. Will it light my cigars? Exactly, yeah. Anyways, the thing I'm kind of curious about though, with the Yeah, I know that. No, for the listeners. Oh. Anyway, the thing I'm sort of curious about with Hyrule Warriors is who the character in the Twilight Princess package could be. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I have an idea and I guess it came out like almost 10 years ago so, spoiler territory is you don't need to worry about it anymore. I feel like it might be the full like Twilight form Yeah, the Twilight Princess Minda. But it might be weird to have a second version. I mean, I guess further spoilers if you have Zelda Sheik I wonder who else it could be. What's the arm? Wait, our, hold on, hold on, quick question. Yeah, but at least at least she's like this guy. Quick question. Are Zelda and Sheik, like can you play them at the same time or is it kind of like the game will let you or is it care? Story mode, no. Like, spoiler the morning. Well, that's what we mean. Spoiler the morning, they're the same character. Which is why I absolutely hate the story You and Zelda are the same character? My first part of the story is all you're trying to find Zelda because you think she's captured from Zelda the whole time. So it's like, They really could have made a twist with that because like as you guys know Smash Brothers, Zelda and Sheik are different characters. So I can see why they'd want to move away from that especially since this is a different like incarnation of Zelda than it was in Ocarina of Time. So it could have just been a Sheik a warrior named Sheik and Zelda could have just been Zelda. Well, they could have basically redid the whole like, oh my God, Sheik and Zelda are the same person thing a second time like 15 years later so that the little kids who haven't played Ocarina of Time but are playing Smash Bros. and Hyrule Warriors can like play Smash Bros. and be like, oh my God, Zelda and Sheik are my favorite characters and then play Hyrule Warriors and be like, Well, that's that is how Hyrule Warriors does it though. Like it pretends you don't know Everything's perfect. Yeah, it pretends that you don't even know that they're the same character. I really respect that they're different characters now not just from a competitive standpoint but just because those two characters have become so desynced like they're they're not even the same person anymore. I know they use like the Twilight Princess track of Sheik and that's fine but almost Sheik's entire identity of Smash Bros. at this point like she's there in Ocarina of Time and I guess now she's there in Hyrule Warriors but if not for her appearance in Smash Bros. Melee like everyone would have kind of forgotten I lost my nine-year-old mind when I played a Sheik and I mean that's pretty typical I mean Kind of like how some people think that Martin Roy are the Smash Bros. Are Martin Roy in the same game? Like is it? Is it how far Emblem works? No, I'm pretty sure Roy is in with Lucas and Ness is in the same game as Mark. I'm pretty sure Roy is Mark's younger brother and They have a sister named Sammons. Exactly. Yeah, that's actually a transition. Are we talking about Smash Bros.? Yeah, I'm fine with it. The demo came out. No, I hate Smash Bros. The demo comes out. Well, the demo will be out by the time this is out and a bunch of us have played it because of the platinum member thing. First off, maybe what do you guys think about that platinum member demo idea It's pretty good. I'm like trying to register everything I have now to be a platinum member because I don't know what they're going to do next. I got mine from an old animal crossing friend who's like fucking awesome. By the way, that was for you Adam Thank you. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic. I'm trying to register as much stuff as I can Yeah, I think it was a great move for marketing. Just as Jake is saying, trying to register everything you can and also you get people talking on forums, on social media about the Smash Bros. demo codes and all of a sudden when everyone's trying to get it, everyone's posting about it, everyone else is finding out about it. So it's a good marketing technique and it's a good interaction. But do you guys think those questionnaires they make you fill out for those extra points? Do you think they actually read them or like sort of skim? Because like for my I got a little skathing and I'm like I hope someone reads it. I liked it but I had my problems with it. I'm sure they do in some respects like there's always that question that you know they ask you in your own words you know to give give permission to possibly Yeah, yeah, that's true. They do ask they must be reading you know or at least have people assigned to read it. Yeah, cause I imagine they just like use the multiple choice. Otherwise if nobody was like reading or checking them then there's no point in having the first place cause then there's nobody just to sort of like outside of the general like the general button answers where they just come back. But it feels like at some point your opinion becomes a whisper and a wind storm you know like how do they have time? Oh, I'm sure it does but you know if everybody gives similar opinions then ultimately you know if 90% of people in the survey say that and then the treehouse guys say that and then tell Nintendo of Japan you know the next Kirby game needs to be longer there's then maybe you know after all that's happened already unlikely that is then like a 10% chance that Nintendo will listen. I hope they do because I had some certain words about the Mario Kart 8 roster I was like I love it but there's 10 turtles two alloys five babies why? Yeah, that was basically why is Peach like four characters? This game is all just babies and turtles! Why do we have four different versions of Peach and Mario? I don't mind like I don't mind costumes I think Cat, Peach and Pink Gold would have been cool costumes and they definitely know how to do it with Yoshi and Chaga now The Yoshi colors not with like separate spots on the roster the way to do costumes is the way Smash Bros. did it with I guess this is still spoiler territory because we're not it's not out yet so some people are still avoiding it but there's a certain character that has seven different costumes no alternate colors just seven costumes and that's the way to do it but we can say the last couple of minutes of the podcast talk about spoilers we'll get more into that but personally I think the best way to handle costumes is I don't know if you guys played All Stars because not too many people really did they really had a good grip on costumes because what it was is like after you'd select your character you're left and right to change palette and I think that was really good and like as opposed to having to like flip through over and over until you get because Little Mac has 16 goddamn costumes and like how do you find the one like with right sorry Adam you got to censor that too I have to censor a lot of things fuck fuck fuck I'm sorry oh my god yeah you know what's interesting I oh did you want to talk sorry I'm sorry someone in the room someone say something please okay so how about those Pikmin movies that are coming out I'm done for it I hope there's like English movies wait what yeah I'm really excited what's coming out these short films yeah they're getting into like cartoon territory so pick clicks little Pikmin yeah which I think is really great I think Pikmin is like perfectly suited for an animation definitely Pikmin's very very you know they can totally they can totally market the hell out of that if the red one isn't sassy I'm going to be very disappointed what about what no the purple one has to be sassy he's spicy yeah or it's spicy one more thing I saw recently about Smash Bros what I thought was kind of like messed up was that Snake wasn't even considered for the new one like Socrates had it in his head the only thing about when it comes to Zelda is Metal Gear so like that that really hit home to like find out it wasn't even considered I don't know it kind of makes sense to me Snake is really a PlayStation but at the same time it kind of reminds me of characters like Captain Falcon where at this point they're more like Smash Bros. like trophies as they are they're like F-Zero or Mother you know they're more but I don't know Snake is I mean Metal Gear Solid F-Zero I still would have liked because he is he was a Smash yeah I know I appreciate the sentiment he is like so much Nintendo in that he was in Smash Bros. so there's that well that's I guess I don't I like Colin I kind of understand why he wouldn't even be considered you know the last the last Metal Gear game was what didn't they put Snake Eater and even then that's not Solid Snake before that it was like 10 years before like Twin Snakes and now there's like the whole David Hader Kiefer Sutherland Chewbackel and I don't know I feel like having David Hader I mean I just I understand I feel like Snake was lucky to be in Brawl in the first place and I don't even know how they decided oh yeah there's actually a neat story behind that well Kojima and Sakurai are really good friends and Kojima really wanted him to be in Melee but Sakurai was like sorry man we're way too far and even proceeding that like but he let it happen for Brawl but even proceeding that like apparently Kojima came on record and said the reason he even wanted him in Smash in the first place was because he would play Smash Brothers with his son and his son was like hey that why isn't Snake in oh that's right and he was like I must do this now for my son I'm sad about being gone for my son all of them sons of the patriots Ice Climbers being cut up because of the 30 years I know I know I don't see why he didn't just do like Pope yeah there was a rumor saying like only one would return and the other would be an alt and that would have been okay but there was like yeah that would have been okay for us well I think this gets back to the whole you know people seem to be okay like if Smash and 3DS and Smash Wii U had some different characters it seems like most fans would have been okay with that so it's kind of exactly the same knowing that the 3DS can't do it well see but this goes back to the thing about well but this goes back to like DLC wait a minute Eddie Ridley was too big for the file size of the 3DS that argument can we talk about that argument for a second okay because Goddamn Ridley was the same size as Samus in the first game Bowser was like 40 times Mario size and Super Mario Sunshine and Pikmin is smaller I'm sorry all of them are smaller than a battery so I hate that argument I'm sorry I go on yeah no I'm just saying guys I really might have actually had too much let's just sit back and let Eddie and Jake keep going out of the house I'm just like slowly driving Jake into like a violent rage no but I kind of did foresee kind of a you know the whole Alonzo thing you know you play as Ridley someone else will probably appear in the but I don't mind as much I think really does deserve a slot but if it's not as long as it gets presentation it's okay a little part of me was actually kind of worried we'll see I think like Nintendo has kind of late like Adam I talked about a car like a few weeks ago that Sakamoto the dude who did Metroid like all together he created it he kind of vaguely said that Metroid Prime it was long believed that he said it was decanonified but he said it was more kind of like its own thing so to speak it's kind of like a sub story but it's still is in the main canon so I was worried that like dark and I was like okay so dark Samus is an assist they still care because Prime did basically outclass well yeah I mean Prime basically revived the franchise you know people think of Metroid at this point I think it's safe to say most people think of the Prime series well yeah that's no surprise the very first Metroid Prime game is the single most popular game it's simply up there yeah it doesn't hold up so well on the Wii I got the trilogy and I was like fucking censor bar I just want to shoot I I think it's better on the Wii I suck so bad there are some processing problems because it's a massive pointing to shoot I think is amazing see this gets into the whole debate of like do you like Skyward Star or do you hate Skyward Star I could take it or leave it but I know the demise fight drew me insane it works perfectly like especially those god damn enemies with the electric shields and they keep like moving them because it wasn't my fault I was just trying to hit their weak spot but I'm dying to their shield I am dying to a defense mechanism okay maybe you just suck at math this is the truth is finally coming I don't know don't get me wrong I do love the Wii Motion Plus it is significantly better like the Zelda experience on the Nintendo Land was one to one beyond belief it was amazing so what do you guys think about though about DLC for Smash Bros because you're talking about like Adam is not a DLC fan at all really I am a firm anti-DLC that's paid for okay I have my even if it's just extra content which is what it would be in Smash Bros well with Smash Bros especially I don't know if you know this but I'm part of Orlando's Smash scene which is one of the biggest competitive scenes for Smash Bros in the country so that's it's kind of a big deal like I don't know I'm kind of top tier like not a big deal or anything I'm just messing with you no I'm not even I'm not even just messing with you go on go on I mean I play against some people that are really good and just like this game is kind of important for this community so I think that DLC is kind of a betrayal but why I mean that's what I'm curious about is why you think that oh I don't have the DLC characters you can't play with this is kind of well but if it's on if it's in a competitive scene of course oh yeah like one thing one argument I commonly make with Smash Bros in general is people's like people commonly pitch a fit when the new one comes out and X characters change in some way and this may not be a popular opinion but I strongly feel that if you consider yourself an adept competitive player then you should be able to adapt like that should be a tool in your arsenal is like you know I don't like Zero Suit Samus is a B now but I'm gonna solve with it so like when right I like Snake Link's new new dash yeah I like that's a problem that's a problem though Jake when you get to like to like Smash Bros 4 and three of your mains were cut dude I know the feeling I was actually really good with Ice Climbers Wolf and like and they're all gone Luke yeah they weren't my name it's my heart's broken I'm actually mine Ivy Store Wolf yes I got pretty good with everyone um but like I to be honest I'm actually oh it's not really good with everyone look out okay I wasn't so great with some characters I wasn't going to be here no you'll be best with every character no but the thing is is that speaking of the roster and I guess we won't spoil the full roster anything but obviously characters got cut and the thing that like I don't think the developers really realize how much it'll bother people but the main reason characters become like really like popularized and like oh this character is my main and when you only have that for years then you're gonna obviously that's the you'll notice who's gone more than you'll notice who's here you know so I do miss Wolf I think it's kind of a shame that they cut him because they're trying to revitalize Star Fox I mean there's a new Star Fox game coming on 2015 and he's the iconic villain I think Wolf I think Wolf deserved a spot more than very much deserved a spot I am the entire competitive scene that's screened at our podcast what are you talking about cutting off Fox you've got tech wave dash yeah okay it's like did you even get it back Adam are you making fun of yourself I'm from Orlando but yeah I'm pretty good with every character I don't know if you know this about me but I follow the competitive scene I will miss the characters or cut I strongly just don't believe that Wolf will come back just because he's a trophy and I feel like that would be complicated because they want you to play classic to earn the trophy so I don't know how that would work maybe they like change the trophy to be different like maybe to be panther but see the thing is also Ice Climbers are also a trophy and I would feel I would expect that the first DLC characters to come out would be the ones who are like yeah besides like the ones who actually Sakurai doesn't want back like you know Snake Squirtle Ivysaur those I think are safe to say they were lucky to get in the first place but character but Wolf Lucas and Ice Climbers or at least like one Ice Climber I feel like that would be on the table for a first round I think so too DLC but the thing is is that actually you know what go on go on well that was it what I was going to say that's actually the first time I've believed in all by all means you know so we're so getting back into that you know it's kind of like the reason Ice Climbers wasn't included to begin with I think it's just not even an option on the table because I don't think Sakurai wants to do it No, not entirely not entirely because he did say that they were working just fine on the Wii U version but and this is something I wanted to talk about earlier is that when they announced that these would be like they would share the same roster I was really disconcerned because or disconcerned okay I was not thrilled because I worried that the 3DS limitations would in turn limit the Wii U and that kind of did happen because they had a working build of Ice Climbers and they just couldn't make it work but one thing like Adam was saying earlier he's not a fan of DLC I could take it or leave it it really really depends I'm not crazy about Hyrule Warriors but we can talk about that in a sec but for something like Smash Brothers where you feel like you have a full and complete product in front of you but you know what if you want if you have the option to expand yourself I'm like okay fine but um crap where was I going with this Adam title this episode where am I going with this well I look at DLC like this and there are some fans that debated with me about this when the Mario Kart 8 DLC got announced they're like oh no you're adding DLC despite the fact that we're at Zelda site and Zelda DLC was announced so you figure people and I sat there and I looked at Mario Kart 8 and I'm like I got the same amount of content for 60 bucks that I've always got yeah exactly Mario Kart is a glowing example of that like I'm not why would I not you know we always you kind of get to that point in any game you know you're like oh I want more of it and they're giving it to you like I hate DLC where they cut stuff exactly like to be honest I'm very like in terms of normal there's no expectation of me when I got Mario Kart 8 to get DLC or to get any additional that's already in the game well here's the thing is that like it depends on the game as well like Nate said it can't be cut content like I bought the I bought the I bought the Bioshock Infinite DLC Season Pass and I got Mario Let's See which I'm really happy to have gotten because it's a totally new piece of content in the game yeah you have your infamous second hold on first light is it called and then you have your new Super Luigi used and you know but the thing with Hero Warriors let me preface by saying I'm very excited for this game and I'm gonna get it but the thing is is that the game advertises itself as a quote celebration of all things Zelda but they limited themselves to three specific titles and I don't want to say the word lazily done because like I said earlier they had working 3D models they could have borrowed from from Ocarina 3D and Skyward Sword play at Princess so for them to now like expand upon and you know go for some of the bigger games or other games rather like but then I should say it really was like they did not have a lot of time to do this but even so yeah I think the things to consider are one yeah they didn't have a lot of time but also you know they're co-atemco it's not Nintendo developing the product so you know they're working together and they're being supervised but Nintendo's DLC philosophy is not really I don't expect it would override co-atemco's yeah I know what you mean it's a lot more traditional in the kinds of the ways that I honestly think Nintendo's influence had anything on is that $20 price points for the season pass yeah yeah if you look at Nintendo's you know the the sparing season passes they have they're $20 $12 for Mario Nintendo handles DLC very well well they like they do and they don't individually in Japan see but that's why I expect Smash DLC would be so good is because Nintendo's entire philosophy about DLC is about providing extra content at a good price you know really doing the rewarding the consumer for supporting yeah exactly rather than blocking the consumer from we haven't talked about much and this this goes in the DLC just because of how Sakurai works as a person and works as a developer and how he he's the one that does all the competitive balancing right characters and all that stuff and how Smash anymore he just does it because he's friends with Iwata and they're paying him for it's just you know it's it's his franchise and he's going to do it until they decide to move on probably don't pay him to do it before well yeah but do you not expect Nintendo to put an insane amount of pressure on him to make Smash DLC no I do I just question if it's something if he would look at Nintendo and be like I could do that or I could make you a new game see I don't think Nintendo would take the new game or not I agree and Japan two things that you have to remember is that first of all Zacharai has I think tendonitis that he's dealing with so I don't know if he's going to be able to make another one after this another thing is that Nintendo is a company that doesn't necessarily make things that they don't want to make ever ever they've never like they never want to make things because someone else wanted them to they do it because they wanted to wrestling volleyball and a game show all in one I think this applies I think this totally applies to their DLC plans too like if you look at Mario Kart 8 it was discovered in the files that there was extra cups so it's kind of like they already planned to do it well bear in mind those cups were like early builds and they did not at all reflect the final except for the Ochi egg I think yeah no but it kind of showed to me at least that they were already thinking about going to launch this new DLC stuff and we're just going to put it out there even though we haven't done anything with it like they had to have been known about this you know overall though I will have to say they can't explain such a terrible roster otherwise I will say though jumping gears a little bit I am actually very very satisfied with the Nintendo these days I will admit I am kind of it is my home team but it is also the company I get the most angry with I guess for the same reason I pick at every single thing that it does wrong yeah that's why all of us get criticized for being Nintendo radars let's work hard and repeat that statement I want all of our Zelda fans at Zelda Informer to understand please because we get yelled at all the time for how much we pick on Zelda please say right but that's exactly the thing is that when you love something so much you want to see it be the best that it can be absolutely which is why for example Tyler's series rewriting Twilight Princess yeah he loves because he loves Zelda and he wants to see he wants to take Twilight Princess and use it as a lens through which to say here's how I think Zelda can be exponentially improved I love Zelda so much that I am writing 10 articles about my dream Zelda well that's what I do I also am a guy called Zelda that's pretty good and the thing that I get from it's not because I hate the series or anything I love the series genuinely and a lot of things that I make like the fake articles that I make whether it's like a new game or just like stories or Nintendo Treehouse or treehouse or treehouse it's loving I love the idea of Hyrule Warriors on iOS it's genuine love like I would love for Nintendo's the one with the because I know you have a few mods working it were you the one who made the throwing the dart at the wall to like decide the Zelda timeline like how the games fall in order dude that was fantastic the guy I actually only have one of the guy working with me right now we had a few staff members that Zelda informer but all of them have since left the page well I I pay attention it's just I look at the quality you're doing and I'm like I was very strict about who I hired who's my right hand man and basically we have a system work down where he's he's incredibly good at Photoshop to the point that he makes me look pathetic and and I usually will write articles and he'll post them with the picture that he makes and it works really well and I really enjoy working with him he's one of the one of my favorite colleagues that I've met in this sort of industry I guess you could call it and he really cares and the fans really check the posts on the misinformer page all the comments are always very loving and very warm and very receptive yeah you got a lot of love on that like it's the internet the internet skays things like by default and like it's always like this post made my day like it's yeah all I could say is just wait so you have 300,000 followers and then see if they still love that's what I'm surprised about is that the 5,000 they're genuinely nice I mean the only time that I've had people who didn't like posts I still I go and I talk to them and then I see what they say I remember one girl said like I think this actually bored me to death and I responded you're still breathing we're good and she left yeah yeah yeah and so I was I was happy I just it's kind of one of those things you know back when we only had 5,000 or 10,000 followers on us at the time are following us because of us they're not following us like because they saw an image one of their friends shared they're following us because they generally well actually with the the misinformia Historia post a lot of people have seen that that's actually more that was more seen than our 3S demo contest yeah so like Zola misinformer it's a cool thing like any of you guys that basically exists only on a Facebook page right now it's facebook.com slash Zola misinformer so just like you know going to Zola misinformer's page except you had the misinformer instead um but I know our managing editor has to has to step out here soon so uh do you have any closing statements my man I cannot wait for Smash Bros uh yeah I'm gonna go I'm gonna go the other way I can't wait for Hyrule Warriors yeah I will say one Smash Bros then yeah you literally can't wait because you don't have to I will say one like closing remark about Hyrule Warriors um I really really I'm not just going to buy it because I enjoy the game or I think it's gonna be a good game I buy it because I support the idea of it I like the idea that Nintendo is like leasing out their or licensing their properties and like I want I want to show my support for this that's why I really hope it sells well like when I saw the western reviews were a little bit mixed I don't care about Dynasty Warriors I don't care about Pokken yeah I care this is a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a Okay, here's what confuses me about that sit the doctor right or doctor left to do with the green hair He was a part of sim city, but Nintendo still owns that did they just like keep yeah, I think he was only in the Super Nintendo version because they definitely on the character. He's made a lot of elder Yeah, and he's in Smash Bros. Too, but that's the funny thing is that's basically the only way that he can they can use the character anymore is like and Like occasional Zelda like cross over he was in Minish gap. He was in I think the Oracle games I'm not sure or links awakening. I think he was in links awakening. I don't know But one other one other thing about smash I know I know we're cutting it close here But one other thing is Adam and I were talking about this you know Adam doesn't like DLC But I'm okay with it But the thing we were worried about is that because we mentioned a little bit ago ice climbers were working fine They had a working build of him on On the Wii U version, but the three the new 3ds conveniently has double the CPU so I'm a little worried that I'm gonna have to spend two hundred dollars for a little bit of extra content like the ice climbers will be Well, see I don't think they would I don't think they would put content in the game that only works Yeah, that's how you break the matter right there if they did it would be things like ice climbers Which can't be on the 3ds. Well, right, but they I think they wouldn't they wouldn't put content in a game as Significant as a playable character and then say you can only use this if you have this Well, they already said that stages are gonna be System-exclusive yeah that much is right, but that's to Wii U and 3ds not to two different kinds I seriously hope like they're you could like transfer your 3ds stages to the Wii U I would be very okay with that But I don't know I think I think that's a little much to ask for I just look at it like this You know because we're all trying to like basically make statements or guesses about you know We don't think Nintendo would do this or we don't think Nintendo do that I'm not gonna support either case that they would release, you know exclusive content for not for Smash 3ds for the new yes, but but you know Nintendo has shown in the past That they're willing to do things that no one thought they would do for better or worse. I hardware upgrade That I mean the DSI was a hardware upgrade before the new 3ds was everything No one thought Nintendo would you know up literally upgrade the physical hardware in the system In the middle of a popular consoles license, right? Yeah, no one, you know now they're doing it again with the 3ds Nobody thought that they would read they never did it with the DSI. They just I really really worry that they're they're trying Oh, they did double they double the RAM the RAM was I really worried that they're just trying to use the frivolators on Something that has a pretty healthy heartbeat like it doesn't need that like the game See because I've already heard reports that there's some no 3ds sales are dropping. Are they really know? Yeah, 3ds. Yeah, even yeah, it's something like 50% what it was. Well, I That could be blamed on content They haven't really been a whole bunch of great games coming out too recently and not only that people aren't gonna keep buying New systems right at a rate as much as they're gonna buy new games And I think Nintendo is actually really pushing the market at this point It's a risky move to release the new 3ds a point where well where they'll with the market's getting Over-saturated with new systems for this the three main. Yeah Yes, and people are gonna start pushing back and mean like we're not gonna buy this The last console generation actually lasted about twice as long. Yeah, yeah So I wouldn't say that the systems getting over saturated with new devices I just say that Nintendo's handheld environment is getting saturated The floodgates opened and you get like five new systems coming out at the same time you have your the new 3ds Xbox one is for people can afford all these things at the same time Yeah, well in getting back to what I was attempting to say I knew I knew what in the middle of it was gonna bring up conversations Like you know Nintendo also did things like release three exclusive JRPGs for the Wii It's just kind of these things that you don't think Nintendo is gonna do and then just kind of out of nowhere They they do it You know whether we're clamoring for it or not like no one's really asking for the new 3ds to exist I mean yeah, there's been asking for like, you know a hardware alteration where there's a second Yeah, but not for like a CCU see the big problem I find with that though is that the the circle pad pro doesn't work But conveniently the new C stick will on the new 3ds So you know like it's really give and take with this thing and not to mention like the new 3ds is so poorly marketed Like Adam strongly feels that it the Nintendo needs to like double-check their their marketing team They need to fire Like they've needed to fire their publicist is to ever whatever agency they've been using for the past 20 or 30 years There's need to fire them and get the people that they had just imagine Their marketing campaigns have just been just imagine like the little kid on his Christmas list who wants a new 3ds It was the same people who did the Wii is the current Yeah, because now you got to decide they're still the same people who are confused is to like are the same people are confused about we and Wii U So it's they're it's it's not working in their favor. This is even more confusing Well, but those are all Nintendo's decisions Nintendo's the one making the bad decisions about branding the advertising firms just kind of have to Do what they're and I look at it as like really crappy hand like there was a point made earlier about the console Cycle and everything. I like this last one was super long I actually did I don't know if Colin remembers editorial. I wrote back when I used to work at game easier That looked specifically at the console life cycles and Nintendo's life cycle was actually right on spot with what it's always been with both the DS and the Wii like they didn't have a super even then like John Carmack Openly stated I believe it was John Carmack He said like he saw no reason for there to be a new says like we are still very like healthy with a ps3 and Xbox 360 Like there's no need for a new generation right now. Yeah, the Wii was the only one that I mean Which is why the new generations jump has been so yeah, it really has like I'm not noticing as much as I noticed like ps2 To ps3 or you know the n64 to GameCube. I'm not noticing what I used to notice anymore Not totally not but but what I do notice is that the ps4 is trending faster than any console in the history Yeah, I have one too But the thing that bothers me about it is that there isn't a single game I own on it that I don't I couldn't have already gotten from my ps3 No, what bothers me about it is that it's selling so well without Like games that are worse. There's like an intolerable air of smugness coming from Sony because they know they know They're the front runners right now All right, well Collins Collins got ahead all yeah. Yeah, buddy. See you guys great Can I blast destiny like can I do that please like? Sure, I'll let you Okay, okay, I know I know like people are listening. It's like jakes a fan boy We're gonna lives in 1997 with his n64 But I bought destiny because I really genuinely wanted to see because they advertise themselves This is game changing like completely new FPS. It's just gonna transcend everything we know So like I like apathetically bought it I waited into that 45 fucking minute line to like get it and like I went home and I did a little test to myself But right as the prologue started happening. I was like I bet by the end of this I'm going to discover that I can only have two weapons L3 is gonna sprint Health regenerates automatically so you can't fight the fact that you're gonna have to do cover-based shooting again And also the melee button wouldn't be mapped to R3 because no guys. We're not called duty seriously No, we're different we promise and like all it is is like I'm playing it and like I'm a good few hours in right now And all it is is I'm just shooting aliens and rust yards. That's it I mean occasionally I'll get a better piece of gear or something Or but all that really does is incrementally improve my ability to shoot more aliens and rust yards It has no actual weight and and I'm not gonna defend destiny I don't think it's a bad either. I should practice that but by any stretch It wasn't it was extremely overhyped. It was it was more high. Yeah. Oh God. Yeah, it is like and it and it's It's almost a bigger letdown than Titan fall see the thing is that I'm disappointed because activation like smugly like yeah We sold like half a billion in our first day like and I'm part of that statistic now like I Contributed to that problem with the game that I've noticed there are two two big problems that I've really noticed is that The first one is that it's idea of difficulty isn't that the enemies are stronger Like in any other way than they have more health. That's it. Yeah, that's your tougher opponent See, it's a bigger help exactly exactly like It that's not difficulty Making me making me fight a spider golem thing tank for 30 minutes with five people that I don't know I know I know some people are gonna hate that I'm saying this but I'll be real I have not played this game multiplayer and I know some people like but that's how you're supposed to play But here's the thing I think that's kind of a bullshit argument when it comes to games because games Can and do you have the power to stand up very well on their own with a mult with a single-player experience? Like you can watch plan 9 with your friends, but it's still a shitty movie It's just funner because you're in the company of other people and like there are those people that are like Oh, it gets good 20 hours in and if it gets good 20 hours in then it really didn't deserve anyone's time or money Like if Pac-Man can engross me in seconds, then why the fuck do I have to wait 20 hours vision? I think I think activation recently said that like it's a totally different game after your past level 20 Yeah, and it's like should it should it be yeah, like cuz like I'm just shooting aliens What is gonna happen 20 hours in am I gonna shoot more aliens? I Mean I look at it. I look at it like this and this is because you know that they claim it's not an MMO and Clearly it's like yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I should I should rephrase I Have I have played with people in so far as other people have been on the maps But that just got frustrating because they're taking my kills and my experience. That's Well, this is what I look at it as and this is the problem any game like this It has and people do it whether they realize they're doing it or not And I was doing it not even realizing that I you know, I used to play World of Warcraft Used to play yeah, yeah Every now and then you know subscribe to it and play it again just to see what's going on Because I have some friends that still play it, but you know in general you could play World of Warcraft all by yourself You don't ever have to play with anybody else. They'll be there in the world, but you don't have to do anything And and World of Warcraft kind of set this bar with with of expectation MMOs that most MMOs Don't ever reach And and destiny kind of feels like that to me like Adam was saying about how they give you know The how they make them fight harder is they put more help. Yeah, well sure they put more health on bosses and Wow, but they also make the mechanics of the boss so much more difficult and the damage done so much more Punishing and the AI so much more tricky that yeah that Doesn't do it. It's just like you're kind of taking the lazy You're just giving me like the same kind of crappy From a company like bungee who's who's famous for making Halo and for making a really good AI That flanks you that knows what you're doing and make strategies to destroy your plans And then these AI that just are blocked by invisible barriers and just stand around waiting to be shot It's it's horrendous Admittedly the AI doesn't press me in some ways like there are those shooters were like once you get detected You will just like be found until like proven otherwise But like this game if you if you escape they'll still be shooting like where they think you are and that's actually pretty clever Like that isn't top to that's pretty tough to implement as opposed to them just constantly tracking you once you know if detective chase There that I mean it's kind of one of those things where we're begging on the game Yeah, you know, it's easy to say like we're you know, Nintendo fans. We like Nintendo games and we love Zelda It's a shooter and there's there's so many it's one of those I know there's a lot of fans of Zelda informer. They're like, oh, you know screw Call of Duty screw It's you know, we don't we don't like those games. Yeah, and it's kind of one of those your liars Black Ops 2 is one of the best-selling games on the system and one of the most played online games in the system Like like we the what what it really is is you're angry. We don't have those games. Yeah, so you just ignore But but it's just one of those that like Yeah, it's And destiny is a good game and it does suck that like the Wii U doesn't have it But you know, is it as good as the hype? Of course not nothing. I mean Twilight Princess didn't live up to the hype Now games don't live up to the hype when they're overhyped and the thing is my problem is that a lot of people have That it's made by bungee who made Yeah genre what it is today like it made it. Yeah. Yeah, it goes down then golden I then the first good shooter, but it was definitely the game-changing shooter and And they they designed that from the ground up. That's their so they It's like it's like if the world's best pizza maker makes the shittiest pizza shop in the country Yeah, yeah I don't think we're too off the point because I read the reviews for destiny like the critical reviews. I was like, oh god I'm not alone. Thank you Yeah, yeah, the critics aren't being wowed away by this game and even then bungee was like don't yeah Yeah, I was listening to the MMO parts have been implemented Yeah, yeah, like where people are filling up the world and yet they're trying to say it's not an MMO Yeah, they're trying to be like alternative indie We don't go by MMO that's like It's like They said that they're not like other games, but all yeah. Yeah, I don't want to see I'm not like other games argument Like as they just brew it in the distance, but it's like I look at it. I'm not like other girls like yeah Destiny is the game of a lot of oh my god a lot of hype these days is based around, you know The fans expectations like Adam said, you know He has a super high expectation because of what bungee's done in the past and I never had that expectation Well, no, I didn't have a high explanation. Don't don't take that wrong I didn't have a high expectation, but I expected a level of quality from the game even though I was uninjured Yeah, no, no, no Yeah, no, I get that and and it's funny because like there's a lot of gamers today They're all like, you know, Halo was like the game that popularized like FPS games and this and that That's not true and it did all and it's not true. It's no I said they change the way that most shooters play Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's not true either what they did is they presented a way that people on consoles didn't know shoot Yeah, yeah, cuz everything Halo does it has been that's what I mean part of it is the console Aspect of the game. Yeah. Yeah, and a lot of that isn't even because of bungee That's because of Xbox live, right, right because that wasn't even a thing before Xbox live Well, I used to play Unreal Tournament on the screen past on Sega net. Yeah. Yeah, it existed But it wasn't like it wasn't a unified network thing like you could play fantasy star online on the game. Yeah Yeah, it was very limited how many people honestly knew that you could play any games online. Yeah It was very particular and like it was tough to like do you could play dude You could play online games on N64 Yeah, well like like online gameplay was like the selling point of the Xbox like hey look We have a unified online network. Yeah, you could play games and look We have this awesome shooting game come play because all of our games are gonna use this now Right, I didn't mean with for me with Halo just did something the other shooters didn't which is good AI good combat And just overall fun gameplay and I just feel like destiny kind of betrays all that where it's it's very isolated yet also very busy Reminds me what I mean is you're alone with a bunch of other people who are alone and that's not a good The problem they had and this is what I think from a design standpoint is I'm not trying to know some fans of it Oh, you're trying to trash Halo. I like I play it. I don't mind it. I'm not like a huge fan of it But I but I enjoyed what I enjoyed. I don't like the story mode at all, but that's a totally different debate But one thing I think Bungie in particular run into here is that all they have made really is Either you have a full online multiplayer deathmatch type scenario, you know Or other online game modes that are like that where you're on teams where you're shooting other, you know Real-life people or you have a single-player AI driven environment And now they are going from that single-player AI driven environment and that multiplayer shoot other people environment trying to throw it all together in the same space and They don't have experience doing that and so they don't want to be known as an MMO Even though it's exactly what the game is that there requires an online connection. You're an MMO Based on how the world works. I mean you cannot play the game without being online with other people Even if you can ignore those people they're there they exist Yeah, and that became they became more of a nuisance than it was a selling point for me because like I would just like Be trying to like it says like kill zero of five and you know like someone else would kill the thing I got a kill so now I got to wait for another one to spawn. Well, that's another thing the fact that it even says zero of five That's a total if there's so many MMO tropes in it like it here's the thing when I was playing it I tried my damnedest to like it and like every time I would stumble upon like a cave and there's like a super powerful enemy I'm like, oh, this is cool I'm gonna come back here later when I'm more powerful and blah blah blah then I was like but then do what? I'm just gonna shoot something so I can get something that'll help me like better beat things that are and I guess you could Really make the mundanity argument with just about any game. I mean like yeah, Zelda Oh, you got a hookshot all you're doing is just making it so that way you can get from this put like you can argue When anything the thing is that something that you can't ever get an MMO you don't affect the world The world continues to exist exactly at his as it was always existed The final boss will always be standing at the very end even if you kill him Yeah, he will still be there the world's don't change and there is no final boss You know that was actually one thing that I loved They did this big event back when now world of Warcraft was you know back when it was only level 60 and you'd 40 million They did this big community-wide event where? you would beat a q40 and It would do something unprecedented at the time It would completely change the world are like a large chunk of the world and it would get taken over by Nax And that would be the final the final rate instance and the obviously you know the bosses in a q40 You're still there, but it was this huge Community-driven thing where like everyone is trying to not just beat a q40 but complete these really super long quest chains To try to like literally change the world that that's what you know That's what wow advertise it as that's exactly what it did You're bet your contributions to the world around you are negligible negligible at best like you just the only way MMO can really absolve that is by like kind of going the the classic Zelda approach Which is to slowly expand your world as you you know yeah, and that's one thing I like to wow Give it in that one. Yeah, wow has never done it since like wow I was never done it since like they've unlocked areas when you beat areas, but that's not yeah This was a big you like you're contributing to a larger cause with everybody else in the whole server It's not just you you know, it's not just the people who are actually rating the instance It's everyone in the whole server is contributing Yeah, and it's awesome. Yeah, that does sound pretty cool But they don't really do that Like in a destiny like yeah people contribute to killing bosses. I guess it's not there's no satisfaction Yeah, there's no I mean with with Zelda my favorite thing and in link the past is that you can defeat Ganon And you know you get to see the world change you get to change the Yeah, the dark world because of your actions everything changes Yeah, everything Let's you do that like you you clearly see the world is fucked when you turn to an adult. Yeah. Oh, yeah Seven years go by and you know, we probably shouldn't talk about destiny. Yes. Sorry Destiny has a few a handful of things I guess That kind of work against it even though it shouldn't because destiny is a good game I think we can all agree. Yeah, exactly as a game. It's not as to a mere shine The physics work well, it's generic what I was expecting. Yeah, it doesn't change anything Yeah, so I can't be mad at what wonder bread for being one. Yeah, it's generic wonder But but this is where it comes on one the fans over the hype themselves based on prior expectations from the studio That's not, you know bungee spot. Oh my god. We make great games before so that that's fans like Nintendo made we music I oh, yeah, that game is so bad I mean you would you want to just really really shitty midi that you make on your week Like we music as a concept already sounds weird, but you hear all Nintendo's doing it Well, it's gonna be good and it wasn't like we sports was good. We music was not right. Yeah, exactly Sorry to anyone out there who likes well, isn't it kind of like useless now that you can't like all the online features are gone So you can't play user-made content or whatever. Yeah, but nothing. I highly doubt the we music fan base is like That open arms right now like I mean that you know that that's point one is that the fans expected, you know More from destiny than we probably really should have But that's just the way it works you you make great stuff before you expect greatness and that's true That's all the series ever since that green of time It's been used as a measuring stick by the fan base and it's going to be until the fans collectively decide that there's a game That's better number two Would be that Activision themselves keeps trying to tell us the game is something that's not yeah And they still do it and there's sounds like they're gonna keep doing it and based on their sales They have no reason to say to its credit though I mean they were right about one thing that came out and said destiny is like the fastest selling new IP like in History it is but what's so weird about it is and I played some I I don't have a ps4 and I played on my ps3 it just I Don't know man. It doesn't feel like it's a new IP, but nothing feels right Because it's bungee making the same game and that was part of my disappointments that they didn't try anything different after halo They just made halo again. Yeah, they said we can't do anything else. We're a one-trick pony We're terrible at our job and we can only do the same to their credit. I'm sorry bungee, but you're too kind of Disappointment because it's no finish finish. They were too afraid to take a leap in a new direction It's one of those things that Nintendo gets away with it because they aren't just a single studio Like even their internal Studio is split up into like 17 or 18 different studios that handle different games And now they have like a 19 studio they added that is literally just to make new IP Yeah, which is awesome I really wish they'd have more in the West though and like bungee bungee bungee They don't have like, you know seven studios and they're making different types of games They've only made FPS's and that's all they're going to make is FPS's Well, yeah, but even then in that sense Visceral Studios is the company that needs that the student makes dead space the game has changed from dead space one dead space three Changed drastically for better for the worst. It was mixed It's I like I like honestly honestly, I like that space minus the micro transaction. Oh, yeah But that's just EA being EA that space three has one of the most Well-done weapons like you played dead space three. It does feel like the previous games just different Yeah, but I could argue but it's in the same series But why should that's a little it's if it's a different IP if it doesn't like halo But then there's all these other people in the world and you're doing things you couldn't but on the same on the other side of that Coin though Adam it's whether or not you like it's whether or not you like what they decided to do with what they're good But on the other side of the coin of what Adam said It's like mighty number nine is basically that I haven't looked too much into it But it appears to be like basically Mega Man and people are very okay with that. Yeah, it's it's basically met and everyone's fine with that So it's it's a weird. It's a very fine line as to like where that's okay And like where people get annoyed that's that's that's that's because the Capcom's on yeah Capcom Mega Man game So you blame Capcom? I mean, it's just the guy created Mega Man saying hey I'm gonna make Mega Man again because Capcom won't let me yeah, yeah You can blame Microsoft for Bungie making destiny Yeah, same reason I mean they thought I they fired Bungie, right? Is that how I'm not sure if they either just I think their contract Yeah, yeah, I'm not really there was legal disputes basically it all started over who owns halo Because the original contract that got it made wasn't specific on which it was whether the studio whether Microsoft on the idea Yeah, and I'll start it with that and then it all went downhill dude Because that because both wanted to say hey, I own the IP. Hey, I could neither thought it was gonna be as big as So that blew up and then you know, dude Then there was all the controversy when Activision bought the studio. Yeah, Microsoft You know a good guy Nintendo when they when they were like parting ways with Rareware I correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm almost positive Nintendo owned like all those IPs They own Banjo-Kazooie. They own Conker's Bad Fur Day, but it was a parting gift No, I could have swore I heard that okay There was a dispute that said that the properties that that they that the Rareware made they retained We all know that to the state because Microsoft has them. Yeah, but I could I could have sworn I read an article that stated what it was was was Nintendo owned It was kind of like how Nintendo how much they owned of the studio was like yeah, yeah Nintendo owned a percentage right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they gave a percentage was based on how much of the company They owned and so when they sold away their shares of the company They also sold away their rights to the game They never technically owned the rights to the games because they never technically owned a majority of rare They just own Yeah, yeah, they did they owned a very high percentage while Microsoft is like no, I don't give you a halo my It's kind of like this like what if the Pokemon company ever decides they want to leave Nintendo Nintendo doesn't actually 100% game-free they don't they don't own game-free 100% They don't know they don't which is why there's Pokemon stuff on phones. Yeah, and they're a lot of different things You know, they're not allowed to release full Pokemon games But you know, it's kind of one of those situations where yeah, you know Microsoft owned a good check of bungee But you know if Pokemon ever decided they wanted to break away. That would be a huge bloated. Oh, absolutely huge Yeah, it's one of the biggest franchise. Yeah, and even with shared revenue. They still make shitloads of money Yeah, that's why they release a new one now like every year Yeah, Omega Sapphire is probably I'm sorry Alpha Sapphire is probably gonna be my last one. I'm sorry It's it's brand new game remake brand new game remake that are sequel to a game Remake the Zelda misinformer like they're they're milking. They're milking the Pokemon pot Like this will be my last main one and then pock and fighters because I like the idea looks fine I'll support it because I don't want Nintendo to be scared of like licensing their ideas and like letting other studios like pock and fighters Isn't even coming to Nintendo stuff yet. I'd be surprised if it didn't it's that just further proving that you know You know Nintendo doesn't actually own the company like they can do an arcade Yeah, right, you know, and I can't imagine they would eventually of course, of course It's just they're gonna make more money doing the arcade of course. Yeah, absolutely People say it's kind of a testing period quote-unquote for the arcades But Japanese arcades are way more booming than they are in the West Oh, yeah, and and Nintendo's a different kind of company than everybody else. I love it or leave it I mean they do have the sequelitis like everybody else does and you can never blame them because all we do is keep asking For when's the next Zelda game dude? I'm looking for mother three like when's that shit and also Star Fox, but I'm finally finally that that dream Well mother three just needs to get over like someone proposed the idea of like doing a remastering on the 3ds I would like that very much and some of that is you know It's funny because like what do people ask Nintendo to do if they're not asking, you know for a new Zelda new Mario They're asking for mother. They're asking for a new Metroid because we haven't had yet But they did say they have a new F zero like they're like they're asking for more of what Nintendo used to do Yeah, which is why like games like Splatoon Excite me to all hell because I don't want Nintendo to do what they've always done I want them to do something new that's what made those games so great Like why do we love Star Fox? Why do we love F zero because at the time those games are revolutionary? Yeah, I love it you have your Melks that you know, they're same stuff over and over again, which is fine. They should you have a successful franchise Why would you not make games until people don't want to buy? Yeah, but and sometimes they try and people don't want to buy anymore like I Think the term like remake has a negative stigma associated with it And it totally shouldn't because it's incrementally better than the previous but I say this but I actually was super super against the idea of a Majora's Mask remake Reason being yeah, yeah, I fans are gonna lynch you well Here's the thing. Let me explain myself because I know I know we're running out of it long here But I should really get this out the reason I say that and I didn't like it when they did the Ocarina time or Wind Waker too much either But it's because these games especially especially Majora's Mask. It's already perfectly tangible You can get it on your Wii, you know Like I shouldn't be so such a pierce and say oh and 64 We'll get it on that because the thing is the older games are destined to fall into entropy You can't upkeep them forever, but you know, you can digitally get Majora's Mask right now So the idea of someone saying oh man, I could get it now, but I'm just gonna wait even though like I mean There's a reason that game stands up so well. It's because it was a good game So what like I don't know. It's like when people say they want a Final Fantasy 7 remake I'm like just play Final Fantasy 7. It's it's it is what it is It is the game that sold copies, but I have since changed my views on this I mean I was obviously gonna get it even when I felt that way I still kind of do but I guess it is I like the idea of it returning to the public sphere and you know Yeah, I mean I mean the big the big idea with remakes and I'm never been opposed to remakes like you know The Wind Waker HD didn't surprise me. Yeah Just because I know you know some people thought oh if there's gonna be a remake It'll be like Twilight Princess or something right and I'm like, you know, it's gonna be the Wind Waker It's the easiest freaking game. They said actually the reason they went with it They said they toyed around with like that lighting effect that they did in the HD experience They toyed around with it with Twilight Princess. I believe in Skyward Sword They said Wind Waker's exerted so much like unnatural pressure and it really shows the graphics are very unique Well, yeah, it's one of those You know people think Because people go back to the quotes when they decided to the One Waker HD because they were you know Experimenting with various art styles and the Wind Waker one was the one that looked the best in HD You know according to them without having to tweak anything, which is obvious Like yeah, the Princess in HD without actually updating the textures isn't yeah, exactly The thing is is that Wind Waker still ages better than Twilight Princess graphically if you're you know If you're a visual purist and that matters to you so much, but yeah, yeah but but what people would do get lost in that and this is something that people who really want to know stuff about Zelda you should Should pay a lot more attention to when they're paying the Wind Waker HD is some of the stuff They did in it, you know specifically the lighting that's gonna be and so to be honest They've already they've already specifically said that they were that they used that game to test things Yeah, want to use in the new game and that lighting was one of those things and that so like that lighting people love How that lighting is the in the Wind Waker? I have to say though like because I have to redeem myself because I know there are some people that are probably thinking I'm like a Nintendo purist. I actually was very very unamused by the Zelda Wii U trailer and I know like Only because a they only showed 15 seconds of the goddamn thing be The only footage you saw was Link riding a horse and he shot another goddamn glowy eye with another goddamn arrow And I was like, okay more of this and then they backtracked on the whole open-world thing like Anuma said around Numa I'm sorry. He said during the during the reveal that um, you know, this is an open-world game But Miyamoto was like actually that's not entirely true. So we really don't know what to expect So I'm a little bit iffy on it right now. I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna play it I'm gonna see what it's worth. But the thing is It was all the U and it's kind of like an Activision thing except Activision isn't as willing to acknowledge it as Nintendo Is that Nintendo doesn't want the game to be viewed as an open-world game? They have openly admitted that when we play the game, we're gonna feel like is it like that whole like Destiny Bungie bullshit We're like, oh, it's not an MMO, but it basically is. Yeah, that's that's basically what like Bungie doesn't even say it Basically as they just say it's not an MMO. That's not what it is, right? Nintendo isn't saying it's not open-world They're just saying that internally they don't they don't view it like an open-world game And that kind of brings it into the whole realm of what Nintendo associates open-world with compared to what fans do Because open-world a lot of people are starting to think that they're associate open-world meaning like Skyrim Yeah, yeah, GTA and and they don't want those kind of expectations part on the game But at the same time, yeah, you know, they they've literally everything they've said about the game And you know a MMO to myself even said, yeah, I don't call it. Oh, I don't you know We don't want to call it open-world But I mean that that is what everyone else is going to call it because that's what it feels like and that's just kind of They don't want it to be like oh, you're in GTA No, they're not gonna be like oh, you're in GTA and you can go everywhere to very they're gonna say it's gonna feel like Yeah, Skyrim is open-world feels open means that like the player feels like they have any direction Yeah, and you know actually be an open-world, you know I think that's more like the GTA or Skyrim where you can literally go anywhere even if you want to die It's fine But that's that's limiting in itself because it forces the player to make see freedom in video games is always gonna be met with Some confines like you can't have unlimited freedom I think that was the fable problem like Malin you like constantly persisting that idea But it ended up being pretty limited in scope Yeah, and and I think that that's kind of what Nintendo is looking out for here We don't want to tell you that you know, it's not open-world. It's just that it's not you know, don't expect it to literally be You see something and you can get to it right in the second You're probably have to do something in the game before you can I don't know how crazy I'm about that But we'll see how it plays out see that that's well, well, that's kind of like that they said there's there's land Yeah, yeah, you think you're just gonna be able to climb over that right away and get there like you're gonna have to Is that okay? I'm sure a lot of people have seen the ego raptor Sequelitis and he talked a lot about the being gated off at Death Mountain And I could see why that would be bothersome like if you want to be a free roaming explorer But I really bring that down to his own preferences. I personally like More more Zelda games became a lot more linear in progression But linear isn't exactly a negative thing like it's not a bad thing that you're supposed to let the story like inform you of Your destination from the perspective of someone who follows under similar lines. I don't like when we And I don't like Just the new art style for wheat is LDU Yeah, I just got ostracized by the entire audience. So so of the three here I am the only one that likes the art style, right? I'm just getting that, right Okay, so the thing with the thing with the art styles. I'm always very picky It's just the point where a game can look really can be one of the best games ever and I could still Just puke because of the way that it looks because I'm looking at it the whole time That's very important to me aesthetics are very very important to me to gain because I take that as part of the way The creators showing me their vision and it's it's just it's so vital to like the life of the vision I'm kind of skeptical with as all the use because from what if we've seen it's very similar to Ocarina win-waker not Ocarina I'm sorry win-waker in that it looks like a better skyward sort of me, but that's just my personal opinion Yeah But that's a thing that skyward sword kind of like it looks kind of pretty but also at the same time It was kind of borderline like this is gross and I feel exactly you might be falling to this is gross I really like the cell shaded style because it exerted like this this it almost felt very windy for lack of a better word like Like it just felt very like it very much matched the theme of the game But that's my opinion a windy game can be like journey That's what you're doing I love the art style of the way that it feels and the way it looks because it does capture that same feeling but in a way That's a aesthetic. It comes as what I think personal preference obviously Because like everything in the game isn't self-shaded. Yeah Like like the the texture on the dock wasn't self-shaded the texture on the water outside of when there were splashes Which game are we talking about Zelda you in the trailer? Okay, but like the game I Love the art style presented in Zelda you but I wonder if what I love about it is how they were able to take it I don't care what it's a blend of people can talk about the win-waker Some people have mentioned that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword are kind of blended in with the two whatever I don't really care what's blooded into it because if it's blended then it's a totally different art style Yeah, I like them all like Adam did make a good point about the the cel-shaded look It is a little bit recycled in a few games I but here's the thing Minish Cap the official artwork is tune link as we know him but in game he looks like young links from Ocarina time So it's very confusing like the four-sword trilogy all does that like it has to link in the official art But in game it's a completely different sprite It even a link between worlds and I told this to Adam and his butt cheeks clenched The link between worlds was actually going to use to link until they decided that the top down like the head didn't really look so great Yeah, that would have been this that would have been very yeah I like I like it. It's actually funny because because a lot of fans don't like his current head There's a there's a phrase that I that I've seen Creator of community say hmm. I don't know if I should say this Okay, go for our audience is 18. Yeah, whatever Yeah, it's like It's horrifying but also very clarifying at the same time like it really humbles you as a person And if that happened, that's how I would feel I would have just been putting a new Okay, okay, we are we are way God yeah, I reiterate the name is name this episode. How did we get I gave you a warning bringing this back and is over right? Yeah Getting away from the beach back into Zelda you yeah, like there's only you though the one thing and I don't know if it's so much the art style Although it obviously plays a key role in this but the one thing I liked about at least when it came to the field shot And seeing it in motion is that everything felt alive and it's not just the wind. Yeah, you know, it's it's the it's the cattle grazing It's the butterflies flying. It's definitely perfected what when we're trying to do I feel it was kind of one of those I know this world isn't real and the art style is totally not real But but this feels like I'm out of the park Yeah, but like it feels like I am in the real world without this like it almost perfectly encapsulate what they want So to be a fantasy world that we can I respect it because it's gonna age very well see that's a common argument between pixels versus polygons Is that you know metal gear solid one was a fantastic game? But God it's ugly as shit and bite by today's standards Well, the fact is is that like if you compare that game to say Akramina time the original by today's standards the Wind Waker could almost the original 2003 look like a game that came today from an indie yeah, yeah, yeah, and Akramina time does not look like a game that would have came out from an indie scene See pixel art never ages pixel art is always what it's gonna be, you know, but pick but I'm sorry polygons You're constantly gonna have better processors so you can up the poly count and you know this and that and so it's a map You have to do something with those polygons, you know, yeah, it's all personal preference on what you like or not But you know, I just think it's indisputable It's like indisputable back then Wind Waker. He made every game that isn't a link to the past I just like the top-downs. I love four swords adventure. I love link to the past I am in the there's two different camps I feel like and the more popular on it now is the third person the third person perspective with the 3d environments Wind Waker your Hyrule Warriors your Skyward Sword Ocarina of Time Majora's Mask, etc And I'm still in the top-down, you know classic style of Zelda I like the I like Zelda for the half that's about the puzzles and the The combat and the open-world elements that aren't necessarily totally open but open enough that it feels like I personally feel like Wind Waker really really excelled in what Ocarina of Time just couldn't do like going back to the Egoraptor thing he said like if you found a hole in the ground You're not gonna be taken through a catacomb that like leads you to this thing But in Wind Waker you could and as a matter of fact, it's encouraged You have this giant world that you get to explore and you know, it's not exactly There's a big difference between a world being big as opposed to feeling big and personally I prefer one of those in a ladder You ladder category and Wind Waker definitely felt big, you know, it's one of those things that Nobody wants the world to feel big and have the restrictions that previous 3d right. Yeah, exactly Twilight Princess is notorious for literally having though the walls that aren't really invisible walls fake walls Yeah, invisible walls Twilight Princess is a crap load of invisible walls You literally just can't go places because the game won't let you go there There's there's no there's no reason like if there's a mountain Well, it's pretty obvious that you probably aren't gonna be able to climb a 90 degree angle up a mountain unless you have something that lets You do that. I mean in real life most of us can't climb a mountain just because we want to climb it. Yeah So it's kind of one of those that that's easily understood and it doesn't feel like the game is hindering you Because it's a feature these exist and you can't get past them in real life that easily either But like when the game lets you see stuff But you can't go to it because it just doesn't want to let you to go there That I don't want to see in Zelda you and I think that that might be what Miyamoto is kind of referencing is that there's gonna Be places you can't go but it's gonna make sense This is that when when a link between worlds was like being conceptualized They're saying, you know, it's gonna have more of an open feel and it did very well I was concerned though because the thing is is that Zelda games are more story driven now And you could take that for a good or a bad thing I personally like it But the thing is is that it's hard to write in a story with such openness, you know Like take when we're waker for example things are supposed to be done sequentially like you're supposed to go to the Great Fish Isle Third so that way you can see that it was actually fucked the whole time Like it's supposed to be like, okay We're going to the next place now and that ties into the narrative really really well So I was concerned with how they well this this is where I This is a debate we need to have for another time and I just What's happened? I think is why we play games over the years has changed Oh, definitely went back and back in 86 like we were just looking for a good time We didn't care if the story made sense. I don't care if there was a story You know, it was something told through the manual It had to just be fun to play and now like we want fun to play and destroy It's almost like the early movies that didn't have people talking like do you release a movie without people talking today? The thing is that Zelda now has to compete with the inhibitions that made it so great in the 80s Like it now has to outclass that Yeah, and that's the modern sensibilities I don't know that story matters anymore to the development team that it's ever mattered I think story just matters more to the fans, which is why we just assume it matters. Yeah Well, I think this is a very long topic We should probably wrap this up I'm talking about and we should say yeah, I To give to give my final thoughts on that whole thing is that I think that there's two different camps with that It's you know, the story is more important of the gameplay is more important and a next week's podcast We'll definitely get up and make up the one of the topics, but just to wrap things up right now Think both of you. Thanks to both of you for coming. Yeah, it was a pleasure sharing the podcast For those are listening for those of you listening be sure to email us at Zeldin former podcast and gmail.com That's Zeldin former podcast and gmail.com with any comments questions concerns suggestions stories topics you'd like us to discuss and Currently we are accepting theme song submissions for the podcast So if you have any cool dude with the What what the Zelda theme is copyrighted No, the Zeldin I imagine I mean that's I mean, I don't think it was a big deal I was the only one knew about it. What? Yeah, dude, of course it belongs to me talking about I thought I own that. Yeah, I Better get Koji Kondo on the phone. Thank you so much for joining us We'll be back again next Thursday possible with the new cast possibly some repeats. Yeah Yeah, I may say everything depends on Adam's thoughts. Everything's up in the air. Yeah The what you said he will or your ideas that we'll have I may or may not I will let the guys know all right So, yeah, I guess we're signing off. I was Jake Thanks a lot dude. I'll see you guys later. Classes alone. Bye