 Hey friends, this is Dan Stephanie Burke. You're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio Today, we're going to be meeting with our good friend or introducing you to our good friend Chris McGregor And I'm not going to tell you the name of her ministry yet Apostolate, but she has something we we have a similar species of interest and desire in terms of serving the church so She has the best Catholic resources in Audioform in in the entirety of the church that I'm aware of so if you want to learn about that hang out for a minute But I want to tell you first About the summit a 2023 Avalos summit coming up The Marian mystery in the triumph of the Immaculate Heart October 8 or 13th to the 15th Bishop Liam Kerry Clare Dwyer father John Burns Ignatius Schweitzer Regina Marie Gorman Dr. Mark Mirvalli Shrine of the most blessed sacrament in hands for a lot of Bama if you haven't been there it's worth going there even if all these great speakers weren't there and If you want to learn more or you want to sign up go to spiritualdirection.com forward slash Events we usually end up with several hundred people on the waiting list for the our summit Yeah, don't don't delay if you don't want to miss it miss it Go there and if you're watching on the screen you can see it there spiritualdirection.com Forward slash events. It shows all of our events there as well. So with that, why don't we jump into the show? On your mark it said go this is Dan and Stephanie Burke. Welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven of rest your hermitage of the heart Your monastery of the mind where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven To draw on the wisdom of the saints to help us navigate the tumult of this life And today we have another human And another human another human another human when is this going to stop? Right another human who has another apostolate Where I just there isn't another apostolate. I feel More that is more closely aligned to our work spiritualdirection.com kind of divine intimacy radio. There's no other apostolate that's more perfectly aligned in desire in Focus than Chris McGregor's work at discerning hearts. So why don't you introduce her a little more detail? absolutely Chris McGregor our friend is the founder and executive director of discerning hearts A pioneer in creating podcasts radio broadcasts and publications faithful to the teachings of the roman catholic church And it's rich authentic spiritual tradition She is she is a featured commentator on the lives of st. Catherine of sienna st. Francis de sales and st. Teresa of Avila for the eternal word television network series the doctors of the church Chris hosts several radio series featured on the spiritual catholic and iowa catholic radio networks She is also a frequent guest on catholic radio and has given numerous seminars seminars on prayer and lives of the saints She and her husband bruce have been married for over 36 years. Well I have three children and are obelisks of saint benedict. Welcome chris Thank you so much stephanie. Thank you dan. What uh What a blessing to not only be with you but to be with friends And you know and I have a spiritual friendship like ours and I am so grateful To be here as I said, but also to to walk that journey. I think we're as you said on the same road yeah, um Not even on different sides, but we're we walk on the same road together and it's such a joy to To be with you today. No, I want to know, you know for me the the the beginning of spiritualdirection.com which is really kind of the comparative app of ascolic work to discerning hearts um, it began around 2009 because my motivation was I was trying to dive into catholic authentic catholic spirituality And I found a bunch of junk, you know, I we have we have a We have a post coming up on just one of the most one of the worst books in modern times called the universal christ by Father Richard war is coming up here soon And I I just am shocked that the cdf hasn't already done something But that's another topic, but I was I was troubled with that kind of reality Um Being the norm out on the internet, right? I didn't found I didn't found you at the time I don't know when you were found it. So that was so my motivation was to repurpose catholic mystical tradition Back to the church. I should say authentic, which is a big deal for you too Kind of what what was the impetus for for discerning hearts to to begin? Well, my friend, I it was really right around the same time you started there must have been a movement of the Holy Spirit happening as it does during times of confusion, right? And we started officially I would say in june of 2010, but the movement really started about march 2010 and As you might remember it in that year within that course of that year, there was some major implosions happening whether especially with Public and private associations of the faithful That were led by spiritual leaders who many many people came to see as Their teachings were important and were influencing the church And then they collapsed You would see Whether it was someone in our own region in Omaha, Nebraska There was the intercessors of the lamb Yeah, who are very involved in spiritual warfare ministry and many others and have large conferences and that just And I and I'm trying to say this for those who this was important for them at that time Because it's a very tender place when you talk about these issues but it just out of a disobedience to what the Ultimate superior for those associations is the bishop Out of disobedience to that it collapsed and I watched people Next door collapsing spiritually emotionally, but also we saw nationally didn't we? even someone as Dynamic and influential and touched lives of many like father John corapi. Yeah, that was pretty tragic and yeah So your motivation was to bring some help and healing to the church or what was what was going on That like you I was on a quest. Well, what is real? What is authentic? What what what can we Follow in the spiritual journey and feel Confident in and of course it led to the lives of the saints the the doctors of the church and Those two persons who have a particular Ear to the heart of christ speaking those truths to the world so People like and you we all know father timothy gallagher who has been involved in your ministry as well And of course dr. Anthony lillis. Yeah, and who do they all lead us to? They don't necessarily lead us to themselves, right? They lead them to those the truth that is being through spoken through those those saints and those mystical Folks who are the church is identified as authentic Just to give folks a real grounding and what's going on what we're talking about here is discerning hearts.com And i'll give an attempt to describe it chris and then you can You know help with that but essentially The spiritual direction.com began In written form and discerning hearts began in audio form. Is that right? That's right way back when there weren't very many Boats in that sea. Yeah, I mean way back a long time ago So you have thousands of hours at discerning hearts.com Of faithful magisterium faithful Teaching on the interior all focused on the interior life. So Timothy Gallagher's it's probably the most time I've spent on your site is listening to father Gallagher and of course we do a little bit of audio but Ours is much more weighted heavily on the the written word And so list some of the names of so Timothy Gallagher Dr. Anthony Lillis, uh, who else would folks know that are out there on discerning hearts in in interview format? Oh, well, uh, most recently father donald hagerty. Oh, yeah, it's been very prominent. Uh, one, uh, dan burke Lowered your standards. I I'm not at all You thinking I was I well, you know what I was I was waiting I was just waiting for him to have a moment of time and But there's so many others. I mean, I tried to go to those who could Authentically speak out of their charism. Um, I can't maybe we'll talk about the word authentic again Because I'm gonna I say it so often But for example, father thomas McDermott who I remember seeing long ago on one of the live programs on it EWTN being interviewed by father mitch pakwa and his writings on st. Catherine of sienna have probably Are probably the best And even father pakwa acknowledged that at the time on the life of st. Catherine Well to have him to be able to speak to her Dominican charism and how that, you know, it's not just somebody talking about her moments of mystical Insights but he was able to Show how Catherine spoke about it as a Dominican And I think that's important and then father maritza is filthy who has talked about benedicton spirituality who is Very a good son of the church I would say a spiritual son of benedict the 16th And was able to talk about the charism again in a way that He understands it. So it's not just somebody who Hasn't lived it out or has read things and now is repeating But it's somebody who is Really knows the heart of what that communication is Absolutely So that's a lot of ground to cover all these different charisms all these different spiritualities so And I don't know if this is a good bridge for this or not, but what are some of the traps That can be encountered when speaking about the spiritual life, you know, especially on platforms such as podcast social media Is is it? You know, because that requires kind of a breath of knowledge for you as well And also navigating the waters of this this new media That we're dealing with, you know What are your thoughts on that? boy, you've uh I think Both of you could speak to this as well. You have to be very careful not to fall in love with the sound of your own voice and Because so many people will come to you and say, oh, you really This is really special. You've really touched my heart and You have to be so anchored to know that it's not I am so nothing But you have you identify that as christ that is doing the work And the trap can become especially in this new media The rise of the person spiritual personality and Unfortunately, and I know I've I've danced with this one and I've thank god for confession But spiritual pride can become something that is so subtle That before you know it you have become so self-inflated that um You begin to believe just I need to be out there. It needs to be me. I have something important to say and it can um Cause Those who are following you to not focus on christ But to focus or on the message of that particular saint, which is the light from heaven speaking to us But it becomes about the the personality and it can become a cult of personality Um i.e. in modern vernacular, maybe branding, you know, this is my brand. This is what I do and That's not healthy for that soul And we've seen that haven't we over the last five years especially in social media Um, it can become very ugly and what's counter to virtue It looks weird. It gets weird. It's really fast. Yeah, really fast person Yeah, I I'd kind of love to continue this conversation when we get back because Um, I you know, it's it's a problem out in the secular world And I think that often, you know in in the catholic sphere We can think we're immune about immune from it because we're we're talking about spiritual things Oh, we're talking about god. Therefore. That's the kind of thing is not going to bite us So when we get back, uh, we'll continue our conversation with chris mcgregor We'll be right back Uh, so during the break folks, I just want to tell you really quickly about a course It's available at the avalanche institute. It is the maryan mystery in the triumph of the immaculate heart Um And oh no, that's the not the course. That's the summit. I already told you about that So if you want to go to the summit october 13th through the 15th go to the spiritualdirection.com forward slash events The course I wanted to tell you about is Living at the hand of the lord the life and thought of st. Edith stein An in-depth look at one of the most compelling saints of the 20th century But dr. Elizabeth mitchell is just, uh, an amazing uh communicator Holy woman, obviously By the way that she teaches and speaks so That'll be available here Uh, fairly shortly. You got to apply Soon and the course will be on friday night avalanche institute.org Avalanche institute.org before we go back to the show. Have you ever had dr. Mitchell on your podcast? I haven't. I mean you guys blow me away. I just think you have Brought together so many wonderful people. Oh, you'd love her. I really recommend you check her out. She's really Um Really a gift when she talks about especially edith stein. So I've been looking for someone To talk about her so oh that would be awesome. Yeah, all right. Well, let's head back into the show. Okay On your mark get set go. This is dan and stephanie burk. Welcome back To divine intimacy radio. We're talking with chris mcgregor from discerning hearts.com and before the break We were talking about The danger of personality and you know one thing, uh, that when I When our site started to take off I wrote a best-selling catholic book in 2011. I think that was part of the reason it really went, uh big But um, I was advised Uh that I needed a dan burk page And I needed a uh I needed a wick of media page and I needed to promote me And I so after I threw up I said no, thank you That's why I like you so much. I like it when you when you get that internal throw up Well, I've even god be praised totally exited social media I still have a facebook page, but I don't even know the password The team does and so they post stuff, but I I haven't looked at it. Yeah, that's another conversation. I haven't looked at it a couple years Yeah, yeah, well, you know, and I I maybe this is a good segue into this next topic But you know that battle about the cult of personalities and such which is circular media We're not immune to it and in catholic media One of the things that I've been so grateful is this sense of of being hidden in some ways because Yeah, we're not You know, we have a substantial apostolate, but we're not like all out there And I'm grateful for that. I I feel kind of a little bit more of a smallness and a hiddenness to us And I think it helps us Keep to that authenticity. I think it's we're very human We we are, you know, yeah, yeah, we're not we're not all polished and all that So I don't think we fix the venue for for being a cult of personality. But anyway, being that as it may What we're talking about really at the core of all that is spiritual warfare Right. It is spiritual warfare. It's this temptation to get off Go on the wrong Way go a way that is not the way so Why in your programs you have a lot of discussion about the reality of spiritual battle And in particular the spiritual warfare area So why is that topic an important subject for people to grasp as they attempt to grow in their faith life? Well, I think that's one of the reasons why we Are journeying on the same side because we we both don't we have that reality that there is the two standards there there is christ and everything that he's taught and also the work of the enemy and for for many the the denial of the devil The denial of evil Or on the flip side the exaggeration of the devil and Evil because do his delight because it gives him more power Yeah, you know, so you really have to I mean there is that we we say every sunday We believe in the visible and invisible and in that invisible realm there is this this reflection Of a battle that is going on, but it has already been one Right. I mean god has and is particularly through the redemptive action of our of our savior Um has triumphed and so all we have to do is call on that but people don't realize that because they don't even realize That they're being influenced or tempted into sin. It's still their choice, right? But they don't understand all the dynamics of what a good But possibly broken and wounded heart Of may act out of and so and Stephanie, you know that because I mean you have such a maternal nature I mean when you talked about being hidden, that's very Marian That's that that's the Marian disposition, you know, and I think that For many people the reality of that that needs to be talked about because they're not necessarily always hearing that from those They feel are spiritual leaders. Yeah Not only the reality of the beauty and the power of it Yeah, it's a really beautiful and powerful place to be as Hidden with Christ in God. It's just just kind of glorious um, and it really speaks to this to the theme of your of your Of everything that you do your postulate of this discerning heart Because if we're not hidden, we can't really be discerning if we're all out there outward facing but but not internal if we don't start from an interiority of of peace um And and discernment with the Lord before we Go out there, then we'll we'll get off on the wrong On the wrong track, you know, it's interesting. I I think father rippiger It's has said, you know, the devil's not under every rock. He's under every other rock And and I think that's a good kind of Balance where it's not too much and not too little because sometimes people do get a little wigged out and they're going, you know You all talk about spiritual warfare too much, but I think one of the important things is, you know, if you think about um battleground if you think about Warfare just in in the worldly sense, right? Battle plans have to be made if you don't know where the enemy is You can't properly fight and protect What's been given and entrusted to you, you know, whatever you're you're supposed to be protecting or Or gaining back or whatever and we are the church militant And and we must know where the enemy is in order to root him out and and to take back ground souls that have lost their way and um are being wrecked in the process so I think in behind all that we do is this hunger for souls this desire to help people Find the way and and to draw back And fight back the darkness and and give them the proper tools to do so So that they can rightly step into their dignity as children of god and um And do so confidently and triumphantly And that's very you know what you just described. That's a very mom thing You know as for for women in particular and so that mary and again the work of our lady And i'm sure that conference that you guys are going to bring out or it will point those elements out But that's it's natural we as a mom you have to teach the good And also the danger because you want to protect that child that child is so precious But you know one of the the things that I enjoyed so much last it was the last summer and it was such a blast doing the the program with dan on The work of the interior castle because he saw it from the guy perspective in that You know mama tariso talked about all the great things But the emphasis wasn't always about you know, she kind of talked about the enemy But he said he would dan would pause and say now wait wait, okay What is she saying and as a guy What do I need to do to instruct all of you both men and women? And how to make this practical and protective and that's what you know, I think is so important about both Sides of that don't you think? I do I do and just So you know what chris is talking about we did a series on devil in the castle and you can find it over at discerning hearts Dot com. I just want to say again chris Is doing an extraordinary work. I want every one of our regular listeners who are not familiar with discerning hearts to really go over there and check it out. We're we're I'm not It's really important that We um help our listeners find the best resources which is often why we point to dwtn, of course Or to sophia institute press. There's other good Publishers as well, but there's really Hand hand in hand. I think we have two of the best Resources out out in the digital world But discerning hearts is by far the best. There's nothing like it In purely audio form with just I don't know. Do you know how many hours of interviews? Do you have? Sot tens of thousands like you've got it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm old. Yeah Yeah, thanks dad. Yeah There's more gray hair over here Well, I you know and I have to say to everybody out there This is one of those examples where when God sends people out two by two They're and companions whether you realize it or not. I mean I I'm thinking of hildegard and even bernard and so many others that are out there in Shared ministry as I welcome The opportunity to learn and grow from dan and stephanie And you know, there have been times because of the continuing A movement on the top of the sea that at discerning hearts There may come a moment where okay, something Wasn't hearing that the same way. I didn't understand that, you know, and Big brother dan would you know, hey chris Do you realize that this person, you know, because you don't want to take people down the wrong path The spiritual life is so different than Talking and I and I say this again out of all respect and reverence for the work of our other brothers and sisters in ministry The scriptural studies apologetic studies all important But when it comes to the spiritual life, you got to be very careful This is tender tender territory and you don't want to take people down the dark path yeah, I totally agree it it's and and One of the challenges with the interior life is that it's Spiritual theology is theology by way of analogy, right? It's not as isn't the line we you have to have good moral and dogmatics To be able to travel well in spiritual theology So we need, you know the the minds of Aquinas and others who think so clearly and categorically And help us to delineate the truth so the you know, of course That those are our boundaries, but if you don't have those, you know, you end up, you know, I was just reviewing this amazing treatment of Richard Roars book the universal christ And he is all in the spiritual realm and and has had to have had the worst formation ever or he threw it away in moral and dogmatics because he can't or in even good philosophy because he He doesn't even have the ability to travel with coherence, you know with just the law of non-contradiction. So You know, you have Jesus as one thing and Jesus as another but you know, they're mutually exclusive So either he's God or or and you're not or you're God and maybe he's just another Dude and a good one, but that doesn't that doesn't cut it. So that's what I love about discerning discerning hearts is that you You really have taken care to provide the best voices in the church and And you do it in an engaging interesting format and so everybody out there go to To check out chris's work discerning hearts Dot com discerning hearts dot com And you'll be truly blessed and make sure you have all of those podcasts and beautiful shows and interviews with all these great teachers In your ears every day and you'll get holy and stay off of youtube. I just got youtube off my phone and I I need to myself remember that when i'm looking for something interesting. I pop over there. So chris Thank you for all your great work in service to the church And thank you for being with us on divine intimacy radio Thank you both. This has been one of the best things that's happened just being in your presence I want to come down to the retreat house. I want to Please do. Okay. I do until next time. May the god of peace make you perfect in holiness May he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our lord. Jesus christ. Amen