 I Did a rough calculation and it'll hold It'll easily hold 7,000 index cards in this one drawer But I think it'll go like seven and a half almost eight. Oh You got an actual index card system behind you there Well, that's the that's the the smaller library or catalog But you said I have eight what? It's great. You said it will hold seven and a half Or eight about 8,000 This one behind me, I think I'll do 30,000 cards maybe well, I think I did a calculation once but Are they digital and you Do you print them like you do you print them out? Maybe a total of 10 cards in the entire house are printed Yeah In fact, I and it's mostly because I don't even think we have a printer here at the house So everybody's video keeps dropping out. This is like musical chairs Well, as long as we could hear each other, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's all that matters. I can see everybody I can see everyone too. I think it might just be on your side really because I'm I'm getting each of you is dropping out Like one at a time. It's acting weird for me today. It's weird You're done with this fuzzy too, even though it says you've got a good connection That they break seal and their emergency I Do not have something like that in my obsidian vault It's not all fun and games We have a professor in undergrad who did econometrics Jack Johnston He was an old British guy who taught econometrics and there was a bottle of tea of Pepe in his file cabinet So I want to ask you how do you thought about digitizing that? I mean, I know that, you know, I Don't know other than to have a backup. I'm not sure what it would be worth Or I would pay somebody some nominal amount To do it possibly but it's not It's not worth it. I Just be worried about like losing it for like something happening to your physical location, you know There's a large door right here Other than earthquake and the whole thing coming down, which is a whole nother issue to deal with If there were fire I could Drag this out the door and it comes apart in sections So I could pick it up and take it out Pretty quickly and then the other one is a little heavier But the three or four doors That have mission critical stuff and I could take out and walk out a door pretty quickly as well, so That's cool If it if it came to that and presuming, you know, there were a fire and I'm at home Right, you know, but the other thing too is the the steel cases It's 20 gauge steel So my guess would be It could go through fire for about an hour before I would have to worry about cards Igniting and disappearing That's pretty cool They would smell like smoke when it was done, but I would still have them Yes, they would just carry more information It's interesting. I think if it is a big disk drive that just takes up more space than So I sent this link that I thought you know, I was thinking of like how to work up such a thing I don't know you think Simon Willison Who did a dog sheep? That's it He had he made his experiment in Germany pro, you know, you can just with API and eventually With the interface presumably you can attach a video and he actually filmed his library Like a section of his library just like the shelves doing like this and through the video to Gemina I say that said like game Jason. I don't know if I mentioned this a few weeks back where they And he got like pretty usable Jason with a full dump of his a library So I wonder how good, you know, how easy it could be like in a few months to just say like you hold the phone flip through the cards and See how far I get to you, I guess But I'll go on to record this one. I've already started recording it. No, sorry And because it's all hey, dude Where's That's good, that's coming from your audio. I have a call now I'm not yet There we go hi Now I can hear you Getting out in both ways always a little complicated. I'm in San Francisco for the week Yeah, we're just wrangling the local Wi-Fi and network is always exciting Okay one second So I think you said you're recording I don't see the Notification I know and when I started the recording it says the other users will not be notified that you're recording You need to tell them and I'm like, well, okay, they change the interface every time I use it So hey, we're being recorded. Okay. Thank you. So I guess this is definitely a link all of March 6 Before thank you for for doing that Time so we should go Yes It would be nice if they chat also in the estimate anyway And we were discussing a certain custom with Anna. Well the best example I've seen I guess, you know Just the notes of Chris and I think we were all I thinking it would be nice to be into those roles Yeah, that didn't sound good. No, all right. Sorry. I'm not gonna be Sorry, actually now you mention it. Oh I've been this is the captain. Sorry. Yeah, sure Yeah, yes, so backing up and so yeah, that's pretty fine Yes, so what's in our minds? I guess I want to ask Gary how How was my line? By rain was pretty pretty cool. It was a good junket. I have a photo album. I can share in the chat with some videos I Figured out slowly That I was basically a beard for Philip Morris On a junket to fill their lounge because they sponsor the Ferrari team or something like that So we had paddock access at a at the first formula one race of the year Paddock access means you're above the garages and pit row in Little luxury clubby suites with like food and drink and like whatever and then they occasionally say oh Would you do you want to go on this thing over here? So one thing is a garage tour where you actually go down into the garage the working garage I didn't do it during the race But I did it for the warm-ups before and they don't let you take any video or pictures there So have no no proof of having been there But you're like three feet from everybody like in goggles, and then they you know they dress up and go do a pit stop and whatever It's really pretty cool another thing was a Track tour which everybody climbs onto a huge truck that has railings in the flatbed of the truck has railings And then they drive the entire circuit of the race So that was kind of cool, and a few other things as well, and then at one point a Guy was talking to said oh there goes first up and and so he and I bolted out to the hall and went next door to the next clubby suite and Were ten feet away from first up and as he was being interviewed before the race so Crazy stuff and and more sort of money floating around. I guess then you think it's it was all a little Weird but very well run Hey, Jerry, what's a beard? beard is usually a Beard is usually a guy who's Covering no wait. What's the usual setup? It's a well It's a woman who marries a guy. Yeah, yeah It's usually a woman who marries a guy who's gay to make everybody think he's heterosexual Some somebody covering up for the fact that As opposed to a merc, which is a different kind of beard So when somebody says I'm proud to be American I think about that sometimes and I laugh Because you mentioned it I will say I had the pleasure of learning the word Merkin and its definitions from John Waters Really? Oh my god, and then three weeks later we watched How to stop worrying and love the bomb In which there is a general merkin played by George C. Scott General Hadn't appreciated that that detail Well, now you can very much, you know your your old Kubrick films and yeah with Peter Sellers and have a good laugh The brilliant film Also last week we had Rich Bergen show up for the for the free to his brain column Monday and demo his DXOS and Composer stuff, which was cool and we're next week. We're going to use composer For no ticking in our call But he's built on a bunch of stuff that I think everybody here would would enjoy and appreciate so if you want to I will I will make a space and share the link here No, it's awesome. Thank you and and also a write-up that I've well a write-up that I've been putting in every space This is what you're actually doing sweet and All the free retreat is rain cold. I actually I mean I can I usually don't join actually I've never joined I think so I guess I go back to a really interesting knowing About progress there whether you know how close to freedom your brain is My my brain is still walking the penal walk. I'm afraid Catch this call it's full of double entendres. It's weird Who could be adding them to the call how is that happening? It's just It's an active. They're very passive. It's a subtle form of sabotage and So Pete has come close to connecting my brain to GPT through the brains API GPT's API, but that's not quite done and the brain support people are not being very responsive Coming back with it That would be through the API trying to get trying to give a genuine hookup so that you could query my brain I'm Pete. Do you want to share the link to the file you fit or you're still creating it? Yeah, it's it's worth Kind of before you click the link. It's worth reading. Okay reading the background Yeah, and and right now I'm tiny you're a link. Oh, okay, cuz it's so big. Yeah, I So the name of riches companies brainframe and the idea is these creating a distributed platform That can have frames that other third parties might write so you could have a frame that emulates the brain for example Or you could have a frame that does other stuff and he has a couple sample frames one of which is a chess game basically a distributed real-time chess game, which is And you could also have an AI bot a chat bot as a frame And you can involve it in your in your actions in different ways. So it's highly programmable Perhaps I'll show my screen real quick and you can see I Can show you what composer looks like before you actually get there If I can find the right thing Here it is They have a dev the share link or a share icon. It's kind of crazy So I think you can see this browser window, right? So you have a personal space and then you can have shared spaces and obviously I've made a couple already This space has two two documents in it right now these documents are also Real-time collaborative But anyway, if you join this space, you'll see this space and now you'll see this document and You can type on it together and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. I Think you might have That's interesting. How do I create? So the way this works is you don't you don't have like an account or log in and it's not centralized you have I presume a key pair and local storage in your browser if you want this to if you want your identity to be in backed up and And in more than one place you can say at device go to your profile settings And that's also where you Change, you know, put your name Interesting It doesn't have wiki links. It does have markdown links and I haven't tried enough yet to know If you if you read the read me There's a link to their discord so this court is pretty quiet still I mean it's there's stuff going on But I would definitely encourage you to join the discord this and it looks useful it looks like a fun thing to I mean it does a lot of the stuff that I try to do with huckum d and city and together with groups so So I've got it's kind of it's sort of like a programmable google docs And and then the composer is just a little toy app that they built on top of dxls So it's not like, you know, they're done. This is just a cool demo And it's they made a practical demo and you can pick what's under the hood for dxls So I think sort of the default is ipfs for distributed file store, but you could Connect it to other engines whatever so This is really what happens when you go offline Uh, the the universe collapses inwardly and we all die ouch Yeah, I There's there's something save the disc or something somewhere. I can't remember I'm really interested in how it Works, especially this log it like presumably if my browser expires storage and my device expires storage Your identity is gone, right? I don't know how walking on on my device would help with that Well, if you're logged in on two devices Then either one of them can expire and you'll still have your identity Right, right, but I still have to return to the site within my exploration date in order to From each device one from one of the other I you know the I I think even in settings Or some place I I saw some place you could save uh You know the other thing you can uh when you say add device There's a link to save files Yeah, but saving it to my my device storage in my browser It's not exporting it So the the thing to do is Um, I I think and maybe I'm wrong I think if you go to add a device and then save that url or the qr code Something offline and then you can always, you know You could always bootstrap backup So, I don't know It looks a bit like fission maybe is it the is it also within the VFS and so on Yeah, okay. Yeah, cool. I mean it is a fission. I think yes, you are Cool in fission. I think last I checked if you lose all your devices, you know, you know backup So in that sense, I don't know Of any distributed system that I was around that Yeah, it's it's easy enough to back up that uh, you know the ad device link and so S. J. Where did you find the export private key thing? I don't see private key just under settings spaces save file to file to disk Yeah Rich is um urging us to give it a go as pete's doing so give it a try And yeah, I think it He's super happy that she's not too so, you know go to discord and I'm gonna go cool Yeah, I'd say that you can you can copy the device invite link Of course, you can only use it one time, but that should get you returned to your login if all your devices expire Uh, I mean the nice thing to I think like the nice thing would be if it does what? Like uh What naster does right or you can just store your private key somewhere Um private hopefully and then use that to log in if you lose your login Yeah Halo So are they developing halo echo at mesh or those are yeah, yes. Oh, that's all that. Okay Thank you, what curious. Thanks for sharing So do we want to I guess experiment with these A good chunk of this or all of it or something is open source by the way too. Yeah, yeah If you wanted to take well, um, I I'm wondering how you if you could build an agora Frame for it and then have communications into the agora Yeah, I mean, uh, I I did go there. Yes I was thinking of that Yeah, I guess I was thinking like it could be how it will be to export to markdown It's using markdown. Yeah, so it should be too hard and you can build something that resembles a web page I mean you can sort of do what? Publishing Although I'm not sure exactly how I'm really interested in The I guess the echo and halo halo stuff Yeah, echo sounds a lot like Hypercore right. Yeah Yeah, actually, let me copy and paste a Had discord message from zenia genia From october last year But can can you link between Files in the xls Uh, I I haven't tried it yet It seems to be the only link I kind of I I find is indeed a markdown link. Yeah, that's what I just said Yeah, so Maybe not yet You could do a markdown link to the the URL of another page There's also in the settings. There's a whole bunch of stuff features you can turn on Uh You'll see the plugins currently set up and there's a bunch of different things that are kind of there Oh, say fast to this Oh, so you can actually say that fast to this like right now apparently also has github integration Oh that I like Which actually demoed that I don't remember I think and I don't remember anything about it. Yeah, I mean either Yeah, you can just go there Go ahead No good to note that like the ad device link Like arriving at it adds the device There's not an additional I don't think there's an additional authentication stuff or maybe there isn't just because of like I'm already logged in here. I just I accidentally pasted it into I have city in and then it Crawls it and then the device code expired Okay By the way, the the dxos founder rich burden Um, it has a lot of like you'd go. Oh, wow. He did that kind of stuff including uh, he was One of the early engineers on the brain Oh cool. Mm-hmm can't be bothered to Sign in the link in I know it's cool. What cool Like wearing a raw meat to tigers or something. Yeah. Yeah pretty much In what sense Where are these? uuid's Tracked how is it resolving this to something that we can both share. Let's say Oh, it is hypercore Okay, that makes sense. I was like just the heuristics of how this works Smells like hypercore to me And uh, lo and behold it is hypercore. Okay, that's actually that's cool. I like it more because The more convergence Yes more convergence Honestly hypercore and like putting hypercore on the web is really cool in the way that they're doing it It's like it's a shame that blue The the twitter alternative blue sky Blue sky it's a shame that blue sky poached hypercores lead developer Yeah, because hypercores like easily the most interesting technology project i've seen in like a decade Wow It's so this is that's very cool. Okay. I understand what's happening and hypercores the renaming of dat Yeah, okay It's just if you hit that last link in chat, um, I think that'll start answering questions for you Yes, and I think the idea of taking the data and like building a product or a new stack on top of it makes sense Uh, yeah, my reading decision is a prophecy mood on Um, he did citizen Which was actually very promising and then he turned it down. I'm the blue sky and I think you know, that's going also in the direction So but what uh, what a streak Yeah, dude is a very good developer. It's sort of insane that I don't know that he didn't have like the capacity to find funding on his own Right, that's how he ended up there. He tried to he tried to do it on his own and he could not get funding Uh And Actually, it sort of makes even more of a fan of hypercores because it just it goes to show that I don't think that This technology aligns well with the incentives of silicon valley funders Which sounds like a Profounding vote in the right direction to me Right It's hard to know that negative votes are actually in the right direction It is but It's certainly It's a good indicator, right like I don't know the the technology the underlying technology here is so impressive and to see funders Pop onto things that are much less impressive Um and not on this in like any way Welcome to capitalism. You could say oh, well, maybe it's a failure of technology, but VC has funded so many other failures, right? Much less promising projects that were much less further along um, so I see it as an indicator that doesn't fall within the politics of the VC world and I don't either so that works for me Um Yeah, it does remind me though. I don't know if you saw this but like open collective is having problems apparently Uh-huh. Yeah, what kind of problems? Uh, I believe they had to close down their us branch Why Let me see if I can find that's one of those things that maybe it's not you know Failing in the u.s. Is not Yeah, yeah So It's a communication. I think Yeah, we use open collective for social calls. So we're very shocked, but apparently It's not gonna affect us. So The written organization is okay I don't see anything about this Yeah, for whatever reason it hasn't hit the news, but there I put I see flancy and put it on link and I put it on link as well Oh, thank you Yeah Oh, wow so The us base 501 c3 the salts If I want c6, it's okay Whatever that means And the fika host Oh, whatever. Yes, and the european base is okay Yeah I mean, it's definitely bad news, you know the the types of projects again like the types of projects that found support through ocf or Ones that didn't fit within the traditional tech innovation structure for the most part And I think it'll be very difficult for them to regain funding into some new system or version It's hard to keep track of the entities and understand how they're different from each other Yeah, me too The exact specifics of ocs decision to dissolve are not known to us Yes, that is Uh, it's not because it's regulatory hard to operate in the us. They just screwed up It says it came as a surprise to us and everybody had to hustle to figure this out. So it is something weird going on Yeah, there are there like 12 red flags in this update I can I can promise you that ocf did not have a good auditor of their books Hmm or a baby of they didn't have a good lawyer So I don't have any time but I wanted to like maybe pick it back up the the still we have so first I Sorry, somebody will have a question on the UIDs Which uh, something just to be but I don't know it's not that important. I'm I'm very salty about projects like this It does not do any of the things that I need from a fellowship of the link uh, but I I don't um I don't think it's It doesn't matter people like you know and and and it's a it's a good implementation of something else So which of the projects you're talking about now is today? Sorry just, um This flavor of compulsive this, uh, this definition of local first Oh, okay. So I I I needed I needed to know what you meant. Yeah, what you were pointing out Sorry, that's okay If if I collaborate with the kinds of groups that I work with in composer in five years I'm sure whatever we make will be gone and no one will have a copy and that's the opposite of what I need I would much rather Use a website and a platform that are going to go away that the internet archive can archive properly and Yeah, well couldn't couldn't you include couldn't you include a copy to the archive or something like that and just rely on that this kind of URL naming that does not encourage dense internal hyperlinking across a site Is not all that friendly to site links. I mean you could hack anything together in a way that could be archived But uh, yeah At that point. Why are you doing this? Yeah, it's it's it's not I mean you could use this in a local first way, but it's actually not really local first It's it's more distributed cloud, which Right, you do this if you're really excited about building a distributed cloud with all the signing identification and That yeah, yeah that the idea that you care so much about the signing means that you're also going to prevent people from all kinds of Recovery and saving. Oh, you can't prove you're the same person. Sorry like this isn't for you. So I think it's good for a lot of things where um You need some kind of strong upfront Uh, you need hard security rather than soft security What's what's a what's a better what's a better architecture in contrast? Um It's it's not a question of better. It's it's a question of these cases Yes, something that let's you make incremental statements about provenance that people can later ask you about in check Rather than having a strictly encoded option for provenance and like ability to see a thing I send myself a A url to one of these pages in a different browser and I can't see the thing in the other browser I have to like go into the tool and invite It's it's just different Is is there a that does the thing you're describing what is he's talking about massive wiki is pretty good. Okay Yeah, I agree that like I'm not sure that the internet archive could archive this when I try to access the things that we just made in our space Um in a different browser. I can't see it Yeah, I just had the same problem. Um I think like Yeah, because I think the the invite link is like limited time, but To your point like this should be generating Even if it has to see that's what made me think of hyper. It's clearly got Like that long string. That's a hyper Path, right? So it's essentially a torrent for this website that we're all sharing having it open but Even with that like you can and should Have downstream from that path urls, right? The you should be able to go to read me and it should be slash Fellowship of the link slash read me or something like that um I'm lacking. That's a big problem for archiving also like Yeah, I mean I think the technology is really cool and the underlying stuff is really cool and it just But it does again like the the loss in terms of the hyper community Right. This did work in the hyper based browser beacon or whatever it was called Where you where things did have URLs like that? um It's certainly possible with this technology. I think though to your point it has to do with um The prioritization of the project right Yeah, I they yeah, they have an assumption that strong identity and Privacy are our keystones of the way they want to work together which Makes sense for you know certain certain use cases I would say yeah We need we need a society and a community so that we can say that doesn't work for a use case and then do something else I've I've stopped going to most distributed web Gatherings and meetups because people can't distinguish between the two And it's like going to lots of creative commons meetups and trying to talk about free licensee for knowledge And people don't get like everything they do is nc and nd and they're very proud of being creative commons But that is fully incompatible with most free software products And they just don't understand it like no, what do you mean we're part of free culture And the decision to do that and not to have a separate free cultural organization Was really harmful to the long-term integration of knowledge and code in these communities. So we should Let's let's help articulate spaces that are always prioritizing Flexible continuous collaboration with a public that you aren't expecting to We're back to mark down on git as a lingua franca with weak links. Yeah, I mean, I don't think we were proposing we switch over to dx It's just interesting to explore It is and I think it's interesting to think you know, can we be a bit rich? Can a community using this tool can it be welcome into like I mean, I'm putting I'm saying marketing on on on git because it's my you're like, it's what I prefer And can we bring a Which kind of information will make the cross which kind of information will be lost? I think those are usually interesting questions when thinking about integration of systems and yeah For sure, I am in the on the lingua franca a camp And I think I mean you're fast just because he makes link in easier I think like there's I think the thing that's something like this shows is like it could be possible to Consume this into something that is more Properly in the type of hierarchy we prefer though. Like there's a nice Laugh or there's a type script then that certainly wouldn't happen Automatically, that's for sure. Well, it has github integration for example So couldn't you just be pushing everything you create out into markdown files on github? So that somebody could pick them up in a more normal way with a more normal url Whenever it's just that when they're inside the system they have these hyper core urls instead Kind of the way sj said it is like years from now It's all going to be like we won't have any access to it too So the capability that you can push it out is different from the The fact that that happens As part of the operation of the system so massive wiki as Because of the way it works everybody has a local copy no matter what kind of you know That's the very first thing that you have is a local copy And and you and you can't you can't even collaborate if you don't have a local copy, you know so The ability to do a backup at any time is different from That's it's just you know, it's the the way that the core protocol works Being able to do a backup means that sooner or later people won't do backups which means sooner or later things get get lost Yes I see what you mean. It's come it's it's frustrating because This is an attempt at a distributed open source platform that looks really interesting that has lots of program ability etc etc I would never have come to the conclusions that y'all are coming to now partly because I don't understand the issues the way you guys do Um, I I don't think it's frustrating. It's just I actually I think it's kind of cool. There's a completely different, you know, technological technological architecture different Uh, you know There's I often I can't think of one, but I'm sure there are use cases where this this architecture is So every time somebody said there's a problem that in in this conversation you know, it's It's not a bug in a different use case. It's actually a feature Everything we talked about as a problem is a feature that they wanted that contributes to a certain kind of Um, collaboration and certain kind of cooperation even I I think SJ's SJ statement I I can't quite quote it back but SJ said When you set up the architecture like this, you know, you don't get the advantage of an open society It's just you know, but that doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. It doesn't mean it just means that, you know It's a thing. That's what I said. I don't think we need to talk too much about it I I get salty about it because I see discussions about tools like this creeped into all of my communities And in many of them people actually don't want what these are But they are excited about it because it came from another project like that that they really liked Right. I think the idea of that was not this the idea of that was How do you distribute very large data sets to everyone when they're meant to be public? so A lot of projects have converged into this space and um Let's just make sure that doesn't take over everything Yeah, I think it's good to have it just to your point. It shouldn't take over everything um I do think it's a very really interesting project. They're not like down on it at all for its particular use case I think it's really cool and like as a use of technology. It's really cool I like I want to explore the code because I could easily see how like It could be remapped into something that works More like what we're talking about Right to sj's point like these are product choices that have been made for a particular set of goals Right, but they were also like like they don't have to be the choices You could take the same stack of technology and make choices that Hit the types of goals that like we are interested in to have real links to have Like built-in concepts of backups like even to author it down to mark down and archive it effectively right like Very a really good example of this is like glitch Glitch for example is a really cool piece of software that does a lot of cool things and it publishes to the web And a lot of its stuff is built on the idea that you're going to build a server And then serve stuff off of the server um and like It's really cool. I love glitch.com. I love the idea of being able to really quickly spin up a server, but like the inherent Limitations of that is that it is fundamentally Not very stable in The medium to long term Right all my glitch projects still fundamentally work, but they will probably die um And so like one pattern that I developed out of glitch That like you could see being here is right. I have a glitch project that Archives itself whenever it serves a page Right so that way I know that this data that I put in there is retained And it can sync to github as well But like also it builds a url It builds a static file It can pull push a link to archive.org and I can very easily or some future person Could very easily go into this project See the server isn't working Not give a shit and take the static html files that are generated Um and do whatever the hell they want with it, right? So like again, it's it's about Like what the priorities of the particular project are I don't think glitch is made to last right like or The the company is but the individual glitches are not made to last they're meant for you to do fun experimental things um, so if you want to put something on there that is something you want to retain Like you make different choices than the default glitch choices. It's all within the realm of possibility here um But somebody has to make the choice somebody has to make the alteration Somebody has to build the different thing Um and this project maybe one day we'll get to that maybe it won't but I do think it's useful to Take inspiration from in terms of them doing a cool thing even if The ends are not the ends we see But that may be the bigger issue for the broader public's perspective too is some of these upfront choices have second and third order effects Both on the communities that are within them as well as the companies that run them That in some sense determine who has the power so in the case of Facebook we can close things off just enough that all the power aggregates to us Because we're accumulating the data and we can do things with that data That is much harder for the smaller person to deal with or things like creative commons that your choice of a license Will have second and third order effects that you may not think of as an individual Or my project is open source and chooses this license versus that license Has long-term effects on How useful or not your software may be or how it's picked up and used and People in this group may have some Idea of what that looks like five or ten years from now But the broader public is just lost And they just see here's a list of choices I can choose Oh, I want to choose the most restrictive creative commons license because That sounds good for right now, but they don't think about Five years from now ten years from now Once I'm dead You know, we're having the ability to choose licensees based on whether you're alive or dead or how your software is used But those things You know, essentially I have longer term effects than most people are able to Into it from the point that they choose them um, and we should try and make Seeing that or here's an example of if you choose this what could potentially happen so glitch maybe because they lower the bar can create a a Cambrian explosion of experimentation And something may come out of it that you then take out of that experiment and move to its own separate project And build the infrastructure and run it either as a company or as an open source something And it then doesn't need to live with English To have its life, but it lowers the bar for you to experiment some similar to the way that you know google storage or AWS made it a lot easier for people to not have to build and maintain their own servers So you can it's you know, you can play around and explore space without having to spend thousands of dollars on Thousands of your own servers to get something up and running So so chris are you sort of saying that The hoi polo should be using a platforms that have a set of default settings that favor The commons or I don't know exactly what you would what you would have them be but if if the If making things durable and visible Is a is a set of choices that nobody's going to make then we lose We lose those choices because nobody's going to know to make them So so the platforms ought to have these things set as defaults I Ideally but the the issue becomes You're the platform So we have we just looked at open collective a few minutes ago That is a platform For how do we fund ourselves? How do we do something? And when their board is not watching and not paying attention and so suddenly we have to shut a whole bunch of stuff down That then kicks out all the people who Followed along in that choice um So it would be nice to have here are a list of Initial choices that you could make or that a company could make or a group or an organization could make And here are the likely second and third order effects Of what those affordances that come out of those choices So that when facebook starts up Someone can say hey The way they're silwing data off And making it you know, I'm very early days. I remember robert scoble said oh, okay. I can import my address book of five or ten thousand people And suddenly there's an efflorescence of connections I could make But then two or three months later when Facebook turns off the ability for you to export that data back into some other place Or to export all those lengths of people you found Where they turn off the api access to let you dovetail with it That dramatically changes what that product is and how it works And the slow shutting down of how facebook dealt with their data Has had long-term effects on Slowly trapping everyone in so your project starts out and seems open But over time it slowly closes in on itself and Is that good for you as a user? Is that good for you as a company? You know, but nobody really looks at those small shifts in the long-term effects Until it's way too late. So now everybody who's tired of facebook and wants to go somewhere else Doesn't have the data portability. You may have had a decade ago If you exported your data at that point versus doing it now, let's say, so We just we're not good at looking at those long-term Shifts based on the tiny little building block changes that happen along the way Yeah, so this is yeah, I mean completely. I mean it seems like we're talking about the coordination problem Right like I seem in this case coordinating how how a group of people can coordinate on the best efforts, for example In this case, so best default licenses, best default settings, you know, and how can we keep them up to date? right, I think for example like Websites become adversarial. They get in GTI as you know, they're relatively new workers and you know We can hear about it, but we have no good choice on For coordinating like you say Chris leave the platform This is what they actually essentially hampering the failures and Is strengthening all the wall gardens right the cost of coordination there so so this is where like I always like, you know, I dream of this coordination tool You know if we could like so and I think I have this as sometimes like, you know In my mind, we should minimize the number of bits. We need to transfer over the air To coordinate What what is the shortest amount? What is the shortest string? We can tell each other that you know, we're gonna think we could say just remember this word And then any time you need a default any time you you know, you need to find a like Like a coordinated way of going forward. This is the coordination strategy So I think you're arguing we should all change our keyboards to a pl keyboards I'm just a simple yes. Yeah. Yeah, that should fix everything. I can see how that would be a strategy Um, you know, like and this could be I really believe that this could be as simple as saying This is the place. This is the basic wiki This is the algorithm. This is the share Notes platform. This is the social network. We're gonna use A from there building on a protocol But to some extent, I mean, I mean, maybe my my head is shaped like dns or something You know, it's like saying go to the site to look for a strategy Uh, I kind of think of something that is as easy to communicate as that and as powerful Yeah, yeah Although you say that and I wonder too because I don't think I've ever seen what is the agoras You know creative commons policy so, you know, one of the reasons I I appreciate some of the affordances of the UI that hypothesis has is an annotation tool And almost no one probably notices that every annotation on the platform is automatically given a cc0 license Yeah, but it's a useful thing if you want to go and use someone else's Writing or work on that, you know for You know, yeah, and just take it I don't look like most Please go ahead So does the agora have a specific license? Well, that's the thing, uh, the uh, I mean the agora Doesn't the agora is created whatever is in writing is creative commons But the agora itself doesn't have anything It's just a shell. It's like a tool you point at like a List of repositories each of which has the license of the author of the repository So, you know, uh, I thought of having a scraper that says in the repository page You know, uh, so it's usually per user Uh, each of these Is ready to have a completely different license and many of these don't have any license or have whatever they have You know set up for the user And then the agora just goes and like scrapes it all Puts it in like a big bag cross links it and serves it And you may be you know, you may think that it has its own content, but it's actually all coming off site So essentially it the each user set the set the license And this will change of course once we have like an editor that is hosted And about until now, you know, we don't have that it reminds me too of the recent